na
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:55 am

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...be-787-10x-launch-customer-369681/

Quite a surprise. I wonder what Airbus´ reaction will be.
 
columba
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:14 am

I am saying this for years   It makes perfect sense, LH does not want to be dependant on only manufacturer with the retirement of the 737 they will only have the 747 in service.
They were reluctant to order the A350 or smaller variant of the 787 for years even with other airlines placing huge orders.
Also the 787-10 with GE engine would offer commonality with their 747-8I fleet.

[Edited 2012-03-20 04:26:01]
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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zkokq
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:21 am

Makes perfect sense for the LH fleet if true.
 
jfk777
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:21 am

Lufthansa as a 787-10 launch customer, who say that one coming ? This would be welcome news in Seattle.
 
Burkhard
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:27 am

I cannot get the original article, seems like deleted?

This said I give it a 50% chance to be true.
 
columba
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:33 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
I cannot get the original article, seems like deleted?

same here, too bad...
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
qf002
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:34 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
I cannot get the original article, seems like deleted?

Same here...

I'm still holding out hope for QF... A 787-10X in the early 2020's would be a perfectly timed as a replacement for the A333 fleet, and those 744's still flying into Asia.
 
n1786b
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting na (Thread starter):
Quite a surprise. I wonder what Airbus´ reaction will be.

Get the article yanked?
 
wilco737
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:46 am

Link doesn't work for me... Anybody experience the same?


  

[Edited 2012-03-20 04:49:51]
 
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robffm2
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:47 am

Up to now nothing on the Lufthansa group site:

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/home.html
 
na
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:54 am

Article is gone. Wonder why, intervention, misquote, false? Very odd.
 
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Polot
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:01 pm

Its back up (at least for me)

Quote:
Lufthansa and Air Lease Corp (ALC) are vying for launch customer status on Boeing's proposed stretched 787-10X.

Nico Buchholz, Lufthansa senior vice-president of corporate fleet, sees the aircraft as an ideal fit for the carrier as the airframe is not over-optimised to fly further than necessary for its route network.

The carrier has conducted extended evaluations of both the 280-seat 787-9 and 323-seat 787-10X to fill the approximately 200-to-300-seat fleet segment that is currently occupied by the Airbus A330-300, A340-300 and A340-600.
 
n1786b
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:02 pm

 
wilco737
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:05 pm

Wow, that would be cool.

Looks like LH wants to get rid od all the 340s. Big changes happen at LH.

wilco737
  
 
SASMD82
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:08 pm

With nearly 900 787s on order, is it wise to order 787s? I mean, isn't the order book filled until - let's say - 2018?
Isn't the 787-10 still a paper plane? Where is the X standing for?

Anyway, if the news is true, Airbus will have a lot of homework to do......
 
Burkhard
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Looks like LH wants to get rid od all the 340s.

Given the current speed of progress for the 787s, that means the A340 still will fly many years...
 
wilco737
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 14):
With nearly 900 787s on order, is it wise to order 787s? I mean, isn't the order book filled until - let's say - 2018?

The 346s aren't too old, so maybe getting rid of them by 2018 and getting the 787 could be an option.

wilco737
  
 
na
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Wow, that would be cool.

Looks like LH wants to get rid od all the 340s. Big changes happen at LH.

The 787-10X wont be available in numbers before the end of the decade, by then almost all of LHs A340-300 can be considered old (the youngest is from 2001), so that would be a natural replacement. What is surprising is that also the younger A330s are mentioned to be likely replacement candidates. A340-600s replacement will likely not happen before 2020, depending on fuel price developments.
 
BlueSky1976
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:20 pm

Reading between the lines, I'd guess the 787-10X would replace all A340-300s and eventually A330-300s at Lufthansa. Larger A340-600s would probably be replaced by A350-1000s. The rest at the upper end is already taken care of by 747-8i and A380-800.
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wilco737
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting na (Reply 17):
The 787-10X wont be available in numbers before the end of the decade, by then almost all of LHs A340-300 can be considered old (the youngest is from 2001), so that would be a natural replacement. What is surprising is that also the younger A330s are mentioned to be likely replacement candidates. A340-600s replacement will likely not happen before 2020, depending on fuel price developments.

Some of the 343s are already pretty old and some are sold. The 346s are still quite new, but in 8 years they are not particular new anymore and maybe are subject to be replaced as well.
And that seems to fit perfectly when the 787 will be available for LH in 8+ years.

wilco737
  
 
columba
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Wow, that would be cool.

I know what you gonna fly after the 747  
Quoting na (Reply 17):
The 787-10X wont be available in numbers before the end of the decade, by then almost all of LHs A340-300 can be considered old (the youngest is from 2001), so that would be a natural replacement. What is surprising is that also the younger A330s are mentioned to be likely replacement candidates. A340-600s replacement will likely not happen before 2020, depending on fuel price developments.

In the article they also mention now the 787-9 which was not mentioned before.

From an enthusiast stand point -although prefering quads over twins - the 787-10 and -9 in LH colors will be great looking aircraft.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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EPA001
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 19):
And that seems to fit perfectly when the 787 will be available for LH in 8+ years


I think so too. The B787-10 would fit perfectly since LH has the A380 and the B748i as top passenger aircraft.

For airliners without these VLA's, the A359 might be the better choice due to its longer range capability. But for LH this would be a very logical choice. That is after Boeing officially decides to launch the B787-10 and if LH will put their money where there mouth (at present) is.  .
 
columba
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:29 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 21):
That is after Boeing officially decides to launch the B787-10 and if LH will put their money where there mouth (at present) is.

I am very confident with that if that article has it sources right, I believe LH will order it. They said similar things about the CSeries and the 747-8I and have ordered them both.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
panais
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:30 pm

Would Airbus be willing to create the A333NEO by that time (2018 or sooner) at much lower cost and fleet commonality? There are 15 A333, 26 A343 and 24 A346, not to mention the 18 MD-11. For an order of this size, it would make sense to Airbus and get to keep the client for this segment.
 
frigatebird
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 1):
I am saying this for years It makes perfect sense, LH does not want to be dependant on only manufacturer with the retirement of the 737 they will only have the 747 in service.
They were reluctant to order the A350 or smaller variant of the 787 for years even with other airlines placing huge orders.

Yes you did indeed   Still, I always thought Airbus designed the A350XWB with LH in mind (and SQ), just like they did the A380 with BA in mind. So, I wouldn't be too sure yet... We saw how hard Airbus fought for the BA A380 order.

Still, LH seems to want the 787-10 for a specific purpose:

Quoting Polot (Reply 11):
Nico Buchholz, Lufthansa senior vice-president of corporate fleet, sees the aircraft as an ideal fit for the carrier as the airframe is not over-optimised to fly further than necessary for its route network.

But, if Wilco737 is correct (and he should be  )
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Looks like LH wants to get rid od all the 340s. Big changes happen at LH.

LH still would aircraft in that size for routes the 787-10 can't handle. We could see both the 787 as well as the A350(-1000?) in LH's fleet.

787-10, A350-1000, 747-8, A380... looks good   

Which other airlines would be candidates for a large 787-10 order? I'm thinking of CX (to replace older Dragonair A330's and/or their own non-ER 773's).
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fcogafa
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:34 pm

Cue the next thread - 'B787-10 - A330 killer?'.....(!)
 
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kc135topboom
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
I cannot get the original article, seems like deleted?
Quoting columba (Reply 5):
same here, too bad...
Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
Same here...
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 8):
Link doesn't work for me... Anybody experience the same?
Quoting na (Reply 10):
Article is gone. Wonder why, intervention, misquote, false? Very odd.

It did work for me.
 
Ronaldo747
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:45 pm

Wow that would be great and exciting news.
 
kl911
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:13 pm

I know LH group doesnt want to rely on just one manufacturer, but wouldnt the A350 make more sense because of the commonality with the A330 and A340? Or is that cost and efficiency benefit lower then we always think here?

Anyway, nice to see something new in Europe.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:14 pm

Makes perfect sense - I thought it would be 789, A359 and A3510 but in many ways this is even better.

LH 7810X will be a stunning looking bird.

Congrats everyone.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
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USAF336TFS
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:22 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
This said I give it a 50% chance to be true.

The article certainly makes it sound more then 50% chance. This would be a coup for Boeing.

Quoting columba (Reply 1):
I am saying this for years It makes perfect sense, LH does not want to be dependant on only manufacturer with the retirement of the 737 they will only have the 747 in service.

Yes you have been saying it for years and it has been rumored in LH's NY offices for at least the past year.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
qf002
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 30):
This would be a coup for Boeing.

I disagree. I think it was Boeing's order to lose...
 
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seabosdca
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:39 pm

Seems like a great decision. LH (like most European airlines) flies a lot of medium-range routes and very few near-ULH ones. The 787-10 should have unbeatable economics on those routes.

Seems like the "old" A350-1000 would have been a better fit for LH than the revised one.
 
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USAF336TFS
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 31):
I disagree. I think it was Boeing's order to lose...

Everyone has a right to their opinion, but as Columba and I have been saying for years to all those who swore that LH would become an all AIrbus carrier, this story flies in the face of that mantra, doesn't it?

So no, if anything, Boeing seems to be the underdog in these competitions at LH or so the conventional wisdom would have you believe.

I'm not surprised at all about this. But I think it's really great news!
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
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Stitch
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 14):
Isn't the 787-10 still a paper plane? Where is the X standing for?

I imagine the X is because Boeing is still finalizing the design specs.

Boeing is still tweaking the weights, but realistically, the 787-10X will have the same MTOW as the 787-9. So like the 787-8, it will be fuel weight limited - there is not enough TOW to fill the tanks at nominal payload. But it would still fly farther than an A330-300X, so any mission LH's A330-300s are doing today, the 787-10X will be able to do - and more - with a higher passenger and cargo payload.
 
qf002
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 33):
Everyone has a right to their opinion, but as Columba and I have been saying for years to all those who swore that LH would become an all AIrbus carrier, this story flies in the face of that mantra, doesn't it?

Absolutely...

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 33):
I'm not surprised at all about this.

So why describe it as a coup? Boeing is the company with the superior product in this case, and LH's intentions regarding their fleet have been clear for quite some time.

Not arguing with you, just wondering why somebody who has believe this would happen for so long would describe it as a coup, when really it isn't.
 
Gingersnap
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 33):
Everyone has a right to their opinion, but as Columba and I have been saying for years to all those who swore that LH would become an all AIrbus carrier, this story flies in the face of that mantra, doesn't it?

Well where did you even get that impression from anyway?

The fact they ordered 747-8i aircraft disproved that theory a long time ago. LH don't forget a a huge training organization and not just an airline, with a massive maintenance wing. I'm studying Aeronautical Engineering in the UK, and much of our material comes courtesy of Lufthansa.
It pays for them to fly aircraft from various manufacturers for that reason alone.
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Stitch
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting Gingersnap (Reply 36):
Well where did you even get that impression from anyway?

The fact they ordered 747-8i aircraft disproved that theory a long time ago.

As one of those who believe(d) that LH would fly all-Airbus if they could, my opinion was they took the 747-8 because it was the only model that fit that niche so they effectively had no choice (though if they thought the plane was a dog, they clearly wouldn't have ordered it, so...).

I do know LH has expressed interest in the 787-9 and 787-10, but I still expected them to order the A350-900 and A350-1000.
 
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USAF336TFS
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting Gingersnap (Reply 36):

Well where did you even get that impression from anyway?

This is why... And Stitch is one of the most respected forum contributors out there... Even though he'll be proven wrong on this one. And you can do a search on this subject and find that Stitch is by no means alone in this opinion... That is before LH became the launch customer for the 748i.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
As one of those who believe(d) that LH would fly all-Airbus if they could, my opinion was they took the 747-8 because it was the only model that fit that niche so they effectively had no choice (though if they thought the plane was a dog, they clearly wouldn't have ordered it, so...).

I do know LH has expressed interest in the 787-9 and 787-10, but I still expected them to order the A350-900 and A350-1000.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
sabenapilot
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
I do know LH has expressed interest in the 787-9 and 787-10, but I still expected them to order the A350-900 and A350-1000.

Yet the one does not exclude the other, especially not for an airline with such a huge long haul network and with several sister airlines to consider too (LX/SN/OS).

Many airlines are going to operate the 787 alongside the A350 for the very simple reason there are subtile yet significant differences between matching models of both planes which happen to give either one the upper hand depending the specifics of any particular mission profile.

I am pretty confident a 787/A350 combo is going to be just as common as an A330/777 combo is today and with ever soaring fuel prices, operating the most optimized plane on each individual route is going to become key to success in future more than it is already today, so if anything, I'd expect even more airlines to consider splitting their long haul fleets in future, with the required minimum size of any of such spit fleets becoming smaller to make it worthwhile.
 
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Stitch
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 39):
Yet the one does not exclude the other, especially not for an airline with such a huge long haul network and with several sister airlines to consider too (LX/SN/OS).

Agreed. I did think LH would find a home for the 787 in some of the Group's other carriers.

I could see the 787-9 as the A340-300 replacement, the 787-10X as the A330-300 replacement and then the A350-1000 as the A340-600 replacement.



Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 39):
I am pretty confident a 787/A350 combo is going to be just as common as an A330/777 combo is today.

No argument there.  
 
sv11
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:14 pm

Lufthansa will probably order more a330-300s to replace older a340-300 as their seat count is the same and replace the a330 with 787. Their a340-600 were delivered starting in 2003 and will probably be replaced by 777x or a350.

Sv11
 
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rotating14
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Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:28 pm

I wonder if LH and Airbus have discussed the A330S and what did they (LH) think of it to be at this stage of discussions with Boeing regarding the 787-10????
 
Gingersnap
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 38):
This is why... And Stitch is one of the most respected forum contributors out there... Even though he'll be proven wrong on this one. And you can do a search on this subject and find that Stitch is by no means alone in this opinion... That is before LH became the launch customer for the 748i.

I know how respected Stitch is, and I respect him views and opinions as much as the next person.

My point was if you look at the nature of LH as a group, and their wide range of activities including training and maintenance facilities...one would expect a very diverse fleet structure to help extend those activities. But I concede the possibility that such activities may not have a strong bearing on general fleet decisions.
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Jet-lagged
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:46 pm

Boeing will have three 787 lines discharging aeroplanes soon - two in Everett including the surge line and the line in South Carolina. Perhaps they'll dedicate one line to each of the -8, -9, and -10 models.
 
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SQ22
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting Gingersnap (Reply 43):
My point was if you look at the nature of LH as a group, and their wide range of activities including training and maintenance facilities...one would expect a very diverse fleet structure to help extend those activities. But I concede the possibility that such activities may not have a strong bearing on general fleet decisions.

If you ever have the chance to make a tour through the Lufthansa Technik Facilities at HAM and you're lucky, the guide will tell you something between the lines about their fleet strategy in terms of being dependent from one manufacturer only.

I think you're pretty right.
 
r2rho
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 1):
I am saying this for years It makes perfect sense, LH does not want to be dependant on only manufacturer with the retirement of the 737 they will only have the 747 in service. They were reluctant to order the A350 or smaller variant of the 787 for years even with other airlines placing huge orders.

Indeed, while unexpected, I would not be shocked if this were confirmed. With the current setup, LH would become highly Airbus-dependent after the retirement of the 737Classics, with only the 748s remaining. You can count me in among those who believe LH does not want to become all-Airbus, in particular when viewed as a large aeronautical group (with the important contribution of LH Technik), and not just a single airline.

In any case, IMO any future large (non top-up) all-new widebody order from them should be viewed in the frame of the LH Group (including LX, SN, OS). And there, the possibilities to combine 787s & A350s are endless!
 
sweair
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:39 pm

The 787 they will get are the optimal ones with all the fat trimmed and engines up to spec. Sometimes it pays to wait  
 
einsteinboricua
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting panais (Reply 23):
Would Airbus be willing to create the A333NEO by that time (2018 or sooner) at much lower cost and fleet commonality? There are 15 A333, 26 A343 and 24 A346, not to mention the 18 MD-11. For an order of this size, it would make sense to Airbus and get to keep the client for this segment.

I don't think we'll see more variants of the A330. The A350 kinda overlaps with the A330 in terms of capacity and the A330's boom is not only due to better fuel economy from its other widebody competitors, but also to make up for delays in the 787, A350, and A380 in the case of the airlines that had placed orders.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 31):
Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 30):
This would be a coup for Boeing.

I disagree. I think it was Boeing's order to lose...

Au contraire. I think it would be a coup. With LH retiring nearly every Boeing plane it had and not ordering new models (save for the 747s) one would think LH would go the way of Iberia, Aer Lingus, among other European carriers operating only Airbii.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Semaex
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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X

Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting sv11 (Reply 41):
Lufthansa will probably order more a330-300s to replace older a340-300 as their seat count is the same and replace the a330 with 787. Their a340-600 were delivered starting in 2003 and will probably be replaced by 777x or a350.

Very vague outlook.
I do not think that LH will simply replace the A340-300s with A330-300s. Yes the seat count is the same, but there is a reason why they have both planes flying around the network, and not only the less thirsty A330. You cannot simply replace them 1-on-1, that's why LH is thinking about the future replacement of current A340-300-only routes today.
I do not think the A340-600 will be replaced by the 777NG, for the fact that this aircraft doesn't fit in at all at this time. The A35J is the much more sensible plane for the missions that LH is flying with the A346, not even taking into consideration the commonality effect.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 46):
Indeed, while unexpected, I would not be shocked if this were confirmed. With the current setup, LH would become highly Airbus-dependent after the retirement of the 737Classics, with only the 748s remaining.

People on this platform seem to forget that there are more airplane manufacturers in the world than Airbus and Boeing. Especially when talking about the lower end of the segment, it is plainly wrong to assume that LH is an "All-A" costumer or will be for the foreseeable future. Embraer anybody? C-Series? CRJ? Dash? All airplanes that Airbus is not able to replace, but which are of foremost importance to the LH network as their long-haul network is only half the value without the feeders.
So for once and for all, could we please stop this "LH as an Airbus only costumer" discussion?


As for the topic we're discussing here. I still have problems picturing the 787 in LH livery. Maybe someone can convince me with a well-done sketch?  
To me the A350 seems like the more "mature" and "business" airplane, the one that would fit LH costumer base better. That's obviously a naive view.
I'd be more than happy to see both birds in the fleet, says the aviation enthusiast in me.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.

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