LHUSA
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AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:33 pm

Yesterday evening, a friend of mine was on an AA flight (ORDDFW) yesterday that actually landed at DFW but then returned all the way back up to ORD because there were no gates available. He was rebooked on a new flight this morning. Understandbly, he and the other passengers were very frustrated.

I believe it was flight 2345 at 5:45pm on 3/19. It's secondhand information (and I could be missing a lot of the details), so just wondering if anyone has more insight as to why AA would decide to fly that aircraft all the way back to ORD? I'm interested to know what the rationale is behind this from a logistics point of view. I suspect it has something to do with avoiding the penetalies for leaving passengers stranded on the tarmac for too long. I believe there was some weather in the area, so perhaps that restricted ground crew from being able to attach stairs or even push back empty aircraft from thier gates. Not out to bash AA, just curious.
 
MountainFlyer
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:41 pm

Flightaware shows they did not land but diverted back to ORD because of weather.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...5/history/20120319/2245Z/KORD/KDFW
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:43 pm

The flight never actually went to DFW. There was weather in DFW last night, a huge line of storms stretching from Texas up through Missouri.

The flight flew appears to have made to eastern Kansas or northern Oklahoma before turning around and going back to ORD. From your friend's story, it probably felt like they flew to DFW.

DFW may not have been able to take landings, no ramp space, etc. There could've been other diversion locations, but they could've been full with aircraft too.

ORD may have made the most sense to return to since some passengers could take onward connecting flights to their destination, there would be replacement crews available, or a lack of anywhere better to go.

Diversions back to the originating airport are not that uncommon and in some cases may be the best action to leave fewer passengers stranded and allow for a quick service recovery from irregular operations.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:44 pm

So odd....flight aware is showing that the flight left at 8:03 PM and arrived at 10:43 AM CDT with a duration of 14 hours and 40 minutes, and traveled 3,824 sm.

Either way, AA better give all their AAdvantage members the full EQM and RDM values they actually flew for this flight(s)!!

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...5/history/20120319/2245Z/KORD/KDFW
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
cubastar
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting LHUSA (Thread starter):
I believe there was some weather in the area,

There was a LOT of weather here in the DFW area yesterday. High winds throughout the day (gusting to 50-55 mph) with rain beginning late afternoon, major thunderstorms beginning early evening. Heavy line running from San Antonio NNE through the Metroplex on up into Oklahoma. Problem began sooner for the airport as all westbound flights were being held because of the WX west of the airport and then it proceeded directly over the Fort Worth area into the airport area followed by closing in on Dallas. Heavy rain, winds and a LOT of Lightening.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting LHUSA (Thread starter):
I believe it was flight 2345 at 5:45pm on 3/19.

Given the time that plane was supposed to land, there was no way it could have touched down at DFW. The weather would not have permitted it. I was in Coppell (which is right by DFW) last night about that time and the amount of rain, wind, hail, and lightning would have made it almost impossible to land.
It is what it is...
 
LHUSA
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:50 pm

Thanks everyone. I think it's just another classic case of people not understanding the situation and adding their own flare for a dramatic facebook update (I find this so annoying when people say how much they HATE my airline, and it's really them just not understanding how things work...). I was really mostly interested because I thought they already landed and found it odd that no gate space was the reason they turned back. So really, not much out of the ordinary here.

[Edited 2012-03-20 09:52:15]
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 6):
I was really mostly interested because I thought they already landed and found it odd that no gate space was the reason they turned back. So really, not much out of the ordinary here.

If they were able to land, I would bet any amount of money that given the weather, there is no way they would have taken off again.
It is what it is...
 
AAR90
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 3):
So odd....flight aware is showing that the flight left at 8:03 PM and arrived at 10:43 AM CDT with a duration of 14 hours and 40 minutes, and traveled 3,824 sm.

AA2345 departed ORD at 1929 (gate K20) and arrived ORD at 2308 (gate K5). It again left ORD this morning at 1031 and is planned to arrive DFW at 1304 (gate A17). Both flights have 141 pax listed (one jumpseater) but I doubt they are the same individuals.

AA had 51 flights divert yesterday for DFW weather. 20 remained overnight somewhere (3 to ORD) while 31 refiled and eventually arrived DFW.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
ipodguy7
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:10 pm

I flew LGA-MKE-DFW with Frontier yesterday, landing at Dallas at 4:30, just before the storm hit, and the MKE-DFW flight was the single most turbulent flight I've ever been on. Going through clouds on initial approach we were thrown every which way, and finally when we broke through the clouds, the winds really set in (the captain had told us that they were gusting up to 60mph surface winds. When we landed the whole plane started clapping, just like the good ole days haha. When we landed, the storms were just starting to hit West Fort Worth, but by the time I got back to North Dallas, the storms were going full storm.
AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/B6/AC/FI/NY/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ
 
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Acey559
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:30 pm

It was pretty nasty down here in Houston earlier today, too. It was funny because I'm here for simulator training and we were flying along in the sim and I asked the instructor if he changed the weather. He said, "Uh no, that's a real thunderstorm going on outside right now!"
 
AWACSooner
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:47 pm

OK, so getting out of OKC last night and trying to make it to RDU has proven to be a total nightmare.

First off, we were booked on the 1920L flight from OKC to DFW...then overnighting there before continuing on the 0630 flight from DFW to RDU. OKC flight canx'd due to wx last night (and we got three diverts...one from TUS, one from ELP and one from PHL). Called AA (only took 40 minutes on hold this time, a new shortness record)...they rebooked us on the 0600L to DFW then flying to LGA before getting into RDU around 1500L.

Got to the airport this morning at 0415L...the AA check-in was a mass mob. Agents trying to sort out all the divert pax vs. the OKC local pax...no sense of organization by the AA folks whatsoever (both at check-in and the gate). We got on the plane for the flight to DFW...only for someone to literally come on at 0600L and tell us the flight was now canx'd and we had to get off and call AA ourselves, as they weren't willing to help us because of the divert people that were now their top priority. Called AA...got cut off after holding for 2 hours. Talked to agent...she said "best of luck, there's nothing I can do for you to get you into Raleigh until Thursday at the earliest." What about putting us on another airline? "No, we don't do that in these cases."

My wife and I are now at OKC for the third time in less than 24 hours...and we have confirmed tix on WN to RDU via STL. Pending this actually goes off ok, we'll only be 12 hours behind schedule once we get into Raleigh tonight.

Wx in DFW metroplex is no laughing matter, and being a former Metr major at OU, I completely understand the havoc it wreaks on the system. But I do have a few observations:
1. This is evidence as to the huge fallacy of the hub and spoke system...the hub gets smacked, the spokes get screwed. Yes, WN has "hubs," but if there's ever a snarl like this, they still almost always leave you with plenty of other connecting options through other cities (even if it's via Timbuktu).
2. I understand it's a stressful situation for the AA agents...but stress is your best chance to shine, and the ones in OKC have not demonstrated an ounce of professionalism and politeness to a great deal of pax today...which is one of the big reasons why I switched my business to WN. Yah, so you're in Chapter 11...don't take it out on us.
3. I know ATC and Wx delays are "outside the airline's control," but to not even investigate transferring our tix to another carrier just seems like pure laziness...unless somehow corporate policies have changed since the BK filing.

Anyways...AA canx'd one flight to DFW last night from here...and three more today...and with Spring Break in full swing here, there's several hundred displaced and disgruntled AA pax in OKC who are not impressed with the operation.
 
xjramper
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 11):
I know ATC and Wx delays are "outside the airline's control," but to not even investigate transferring our tix to another carrier just seems like pure laziness...unless somehow corporate policies have changed since the BK filing.

Laziness? With rumors (idk if its actually been confirmed) about the layoffs floating around, I would expect AA employees to stick directly with their rules and not stray from them one bit.

Annoying? Absolutely. But, if I were in their shoes, I would be telling you the same thing, especially since my job is on the line.
Look ma' no hands!
 
AWACSooner
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting xjramper (Reply 12):
But, if I were in their shoes, I would be telling you the same thing, especially since my job is on the line.

So not following pre-established guidlines to assist pax in need will save your job...but offering to help someone affected by your airline's travel disruptions might get you laid off...brilliant logic if it's really the case!
 
747fan
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:00 pm

I was down there so I can give a first hand account of the bedlam in DFW yesterday. I made the mistake of non-revving down to DFW for the afternoon/evening. We landed at about 16:45, well before all hell broke loose but it was already windy - I could see whitecaps out on Lake Dallas & Grapevine Lake on final approach (it was bumpy, but not abnormally so).
DFW got completely hammered starting around 18:15-18:30 with the ramp being closed for probably 3 hours & Skylink service had to be halted as well.So obviously numerous airplanes were either stuck at the gates or out on the ramp/taxiways during that mess. Heavy rain, wind & lots of lightning basically all night.
My 19:50 flight to SDF eventually got cancelled at around 21:00 but luckily I was able to list & get on a flight to BNA, otherwise I'd surely still be stranded there! The place was an absolute cluster last night - super long lines at every gate podium & stranded people sleeping in cots everywhere. Apparently the bedlam carried over into today as well.
 
usafret
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:44 am

We had 3 MD 80s in STL for divert and Ron. I arrived at DFW around 10:00 am and you could tell on approach the massive amount of rain. We had heavy chop on approach in our 757 and we were on the back end of the front hours later. Probably most rain in DFW in several years so AA had a lot to deal with.
 
dfwagt
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:51 am

[quote=AWACSooner,reply=11] I know ATC and Wx delays are "outside the airline's control," but to not even investigate transferring our tix to another carrier just seems like pure laziness...unless somehow corporate policies have changed since the BK filing.


Everyone's an expert  
 
_AA_777_MAN
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:12 am

There were actually 2 ORD-DFW flights that made it more than half way to DFW and then diverted back to ORD. At one point there was a 3 hour ground stop at DFW.
 
lhr380
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:01 am

Quoting dfwagt (Reply 16):

What airline would they have looked at that would not be having the same issues as them? They would not move it to WN for example so it would be to a major. They would have to prioritise connecting customers stranded and local joiners added to the mix makes for long delays in seeing an agent, especially if a small station. I'd be doing the same thing. Now UK rules are different to US but if there was a mass weather event at a station, I'm sure every ailine heir would have the same issue be it a direct or a Oxnard via another point and they would have their own customers rebooking, let alone other carriers, especially at peak periods. It's all well and good being the other side, but I would highly recommend coming the other side and seeing it From the agents perspective when issues like this come across, yes we really con into our own but their is only so much that can be done.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
trnswrld
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:40 pm

Sounds like your friend tweaked his story a little lol.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting xjramper (Reply 12):
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 11):I know ATC and Wx delays are "outside the airline's control," but to not even investigate transferring our tix to another carrier just seems like pure laziness...unless somehow corporate policies have changed since the BK filing.
Laziness? With rumors (idk if its actually been confirmed) about the layoffs floating around, I would expect AA employees to stick directly with their rules and not stray from them one bit.
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 13):
Quoting xjramper (Reply 12):But, if I were in their shoes, I would be telling you the same thing, especially since my job is on the line.
So not following pre-established guidlines to assist pax in need will save your job...but offering to help someone affected by your airline's travel disruptions might get you laid off...brilliant logic if it's really the case!
Quoting dfwagt (Reply 16):
Everyone's an expert

No, dfwagt, AWACSSooner is absolutly correct. I am retired from DFW Airport and I have seen many, many weather incidents like this one. AA has never put on their best customer service face, and has consistanly screwed their customers, actually holding them hostage, so to speak, by not transferring them to a carrier that can accomadate them. The heavy handed union practices at AA, along with gross mismangement is why AA is where it is today, in bankruptcy. In situations like this one, AA has DEMANDED the airport take care of THEIR customers, which DFW attempts to do. But the airport is very limited in what they can do. DFW does have a plan to keep the concessions open for something like this. AA does not pay the airport a dime for this 'service'. They don't transfer customers to another carrier because it will cost them money. They do not offer to put stranded customers up in hotels/motels (around DFW these motels grow up like weeds) because it will cost AA money. They do not usually keep staff beyond the end of their shift, because it costs them money.

AA has their customer's money and they are going to keep it, that is the unofficial position of AA. They are loyal to no one, except themselves.

So, yes, dfwagt, everyone is an expert, except, apparently the union members and management of AA. You got to go home at the end of your shift and sleep in your own bed, not on the floor or in chairs at Terminals A, C, or D. If the lines got to long for you, you probibly took off to the AA Cafateria under Terminal A on the ramp, for a 'break'. But what relief did your customers have as they stand in line for hours on end or talking on their cell phones to AA, if they could even get through.
 
dfwagt
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:46 pm

[quote=KC135TopBoom,reply=20]

That could be true, but I hung until 2am where as that was 13 hours for me. My other two co workers, until 5am. The problem with people here is they assume. We had to handle the the GRU flight, that the crew went illegal because ATC could not give them a routing out of DFW. After we got all of the pax sorted out on that flight, we handled whoever came our way. I then went back the next morning, 2 1/2 hrs before my shift started to finish the flight off. So before everyone starts the AA, UA, DL agent bashing, remember that not all of us are the same.
 
syncmaster
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting dfwagt (Reply 21):
So before everyone starts the AA, UA, DL agent bashing, remember that not all of us are the same.

Exactly. We only ever hear about the bad apples, which are fewer than one might imagine.
 
lhr380
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting dfwagt (Reply 21):

Cant agree more. AA staff at LHR are most helpful when I go over for assistance with a customer
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
milesrich
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
No, dfwagt, AWACSSooner is absolutly correct. I am retired from DFW Airport and I have seen many, many weather incidents like this one. AA has never put on their best customer service face, and has consistanly screwed their customers, actually holding them hostage, so to speak, by not transferring them to a carrier that can accomadate them. The heavy handed union practices at AA, along with gross mismangement is why AA is where it is today, in bankruptcy. In situations like this one, AA has DEMANDED the airport take care of THEIR customers, which DFW attempts to do. But the airport is very limited in what they can do. DFW does have a plan to keep the concessions open for something like this. AA does not pay the airport a dime for this 'service'. They don't transfer customers to another carrier because it will cost them money. They do not offer to put stranded customers up in hotels/motels (around DFW these motels grow up like weeds) because it will cost AA money. They do not usually keep staff beyond the end of their shift, because it costs them money.

AA has their customer's money and they are going to keep it, that is the unofficial position of AA. They are loyal to no one, except themselves.

So, yes, dfwagt, everyone is an expert, except, apparently the union members and management of AA. You got to go home at the end of your shift and sleep in your own bed, not on the floor or in chairs at Terminals A, C, or D. If the lines got to long for you, you probibly took off to the AA Cafateria under Terminal A on the ramp, for a 'break'. But what relief did your customers have as they stand in line for hours on end or talking on their cell phones to AA, if they could even get through.

Yes, let's bash the unions and management. The last time I checked, American occupied three of DFW's terminals, and without them, the airport would not have all that much traffic.

Why should American have to pay the airport to stay open when weather delays cause flights to operate into the late night hours? There was a time when major airports like DAL, ORD, MKC, STL, ATL had flights that operated through the night. Departures at 1:00 a.m.; 2:00 a.m.; 3:00 a.m. etc. And all those workers for American that try to serve the public and put a smile on their face who work late when these things occur, I am sure they don't care. I mean, who would ever think that a lowly union worker has a personal life or a family.

I just "love" it when someone who works for the government, whether its a branch of the DOD, or for a local government authority like a an airport board weighs in and slings garbage at union workers or corporate management.
 
AAIL86
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
No, dfwagt, AWACSSooner is absolutly correct. I am retired from DFW Airport and I have seen many, many weather incidents like this one. AA has never put on their best customer service face, and has consistanly screwed their customers, actually holding them hostage, so to speak, by not transferring them to a carrier that can accomadate them.

Having previously worked through events like these multiple times in my career in several different roles- as well as experiencing this sort of thing several times with different carriers as a passenger - I have to call you out on this one. No US major can budget to have 4 agents per hub gate ready as soon as a weather event rolls in. So when 10,000 people "drop-in" for the night- it's going to difficult no matter how you slice it. And as far as moving customers to other carriers- that's hard enough at most airports. At places like DFW(AA) or ATL(DL) the sheer number of passengers to re-accommodate during weather events like these is staggering and even if all the OA capacity were hypothetical available- it wouldn't be enough. You worked at DFW- so you already know AA operate around 85% of the flights there….did you think UA's RJ's to ORD are going to be enough to move that volume of people out?

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 19):
AA has their customer's money and they are going to keep it, that is the unofficial position of AA. They are loyal to no one, except themselves.

Airlines are in business to make a profit, that's not a bad thing, is it?

[Edited 2012-03-21 09:25:45]

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
So, yes, dfwagt, everyone is an expert, except, apparently the union members and management of AA. You got to go home at the end of your shift and sleep in your own bed, not on the floor or in chairs at Terminals A, C, or D. If the lines got to long for you, you probibly took off to the AA Cafateria under Terminal A on the ramp, for a 'break'. But what relief did your customers have as they stand in line for hours on end or talking on their cell phones to AA, if they could even get through.

The airport agents one would be in line to see are not unionized.... but you should know that!


[Edited 2012-03-21 09:27:06]
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason - Benjamim Franklin
 
SATexan
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
They do not offer to put stranded customers up in hotels/motels (around DFW these motels grow up like weeds) because it will cost AA money.

Just a curious question: Which airline(s) currently put passengers standed due to weather issues in hotels / motels?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
DFW does have a plan to keep the concessions open for something like this. AA does not pay the airport a dime for this 'service'

The concessions gain a lot of business when you have thousands of stranded passengers. Why should AA pay money for this service when they are not gaining anything by having stranded passengers while the concessions have all the opportunity to print extra money ??
 
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fxramper
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:31 pm

figures a company in chp 11 couldn't send an a/c to AUS or OKC instead of 800 mi back to ORD.   
 
AWACSooner
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting dfwagt (Reply 16):
Everyone's an expert

Thank you so much for your wonderful compliment. It's stuff like that and what I experienced in OKC with AA yesterday that keeps the majority of my business going to WN! By the way...what AA said they couldn't do until Saturday...get me and my wife into RDU...and refused to put me on another carrier...WN managed to do in 7 hours with one phone call.

[Edited 2012-03-21 14:32:01]
 
dfwagt
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:17 pm

Well, that's good. I guess you do know that AA and WN do not have any agreements. Certainly out of OKC, the options are limited, especially as it's Spring Break and at the time the wx hit didn't help. I have a hard time believing anyone "refused" to help.
 
Logos
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:44 pm

When it comes to weather and other "acts of God", no airline has responsibility (or a policy) to put up a passenger in a hotel or transfer them to another carrier. Especially not WN, which has no interlining agreements. I'm sorry for everyone who was inconvenienced (I've been there, trust me), but in a case like this, it's do the best you can with the resources you have. I'm guessing the dedication that dfwagt showed was more representative of the effort of gate agents at DFW overall than the broad brush invectives that have been hurled against employees here.

A few years back AA had difficulty getting a 757 started in Orlando and didn't have the proper external start cart and had to borrow one from another airline. Long story short, we left 50 minutes late and I missed the last flight of the day at DFW onward to SNA. AA gave me a choice of LAX that night or SNA the next morning with a hotel on them. When it's their fault and not the weather, I'm guessing AA would be significantly more accomodating even today.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 19):
Sounds like your friend tweaked his story a little lol.

  

More than just a little, it seems.   
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 24):
Yes, let's bash the unions and management.
Quoting milesrich (Reply 24):
The last time I checked, American occupied three of DFW's terminals, and without them, the airport would not have all that much traffic.
Quoting milesrich (Reply 24):
Why should American have to pay the airport to stay open when weather delays cause flights to operate into the late night hours?

Why should the airport have to pay? It's not our customers, it is the airlines's customers.

You may not know this but AA has one of the finest, best equipped weather departments on the face of the Earth. The storms that rolled through the DFW area were forecast last Friday, and they kept an eye on that strom as it rolled from the Pacific, across California, Arizona, New Mexico, and West Texas. They were not caught by surprise by the weather. I am not saying AA, or any airline cancel anything based on a weather forcast. What I am saying is they do need to prepare for sevear weather to protect their assets, and better serve their customers. They cannot fly through a squal line to get to the destination, but they can divert. Once on the ground at another airport, if they cannot resume flying due to crew duty times, etc. then put people on a bus if it isn't to far. OKC is 200 miles away in I-35, about a 3 hour bus ride, SAT is 5 hours by bus. In other words, always keep moving your customers towards their destination if at all possible. No, a bus ride from ORD to DFW is not an option, but one from OKC, SAT, or AUS is.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 24):
There was a time when major airports like DAL, ORD, MKC, STL, ATL had flights that operated through the night. Departures at 1:00 a.m.; 2:00 a.m.; 3:00 a.m. etc.

That was a long time ago

Quoting milesrich (Reply 24):
I just "love" it when someone who works for the government, whether its a branch of the DOD, or for a local government authority like a an airport board weighs in and slings garbage at union workers or corporate management.

Don't ya, though? Just to set the record straight, I worked for both an airport authority and the DOD. BTW, being an attorney, even if you are into aviation law, is far from being an expert. That's why people like you have to call upon people like me when you need an expert to testify.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 25):
I have to call you out on this one.

Ok.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 25):
You worked at DFW- so you already know AA operate around 85% of the flights there….did you think UA's RJ's to ORD are going to be enough to move that volume of people out?

That is correct, but they could have moved people to outlieing airports by bus, that would have at least been doing something.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 25):
Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 19):AA has their customer's money and they are going to keep it, that is the unofficial position of AA. They are loyal to no one, except themselves.
Airlines are in business to make a profit, that's not a bad thing, is it?

.
No, that is actually a good thing. But best business practices tells you if you want repaet customers, you have to treat them right. I still fly several times per year, and most of it out of DFW. But I will not fly AA unless there just is no other option to destination, time, etc. Cost is hardly ever a factor because all the majors are usually within a few dollars of each other. I do occasionally fly out of DAL on WN, but not as often as DFW on DL.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 1770
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:21 am

Quoting dfwagt (Reply 29):
I have a hard time believing anyone "refused" to help.

Yes, they did. They literally told me and my wife to our faces, "You are on your own...best of luck." Which I why I then went to WN...and why AA is at the top of my **** list right now. It's times like that where airline personnel are given a huge chance to shine...and the majority of the staff at OKC completely BLEW IT.

Quoting Logos (Reply 30):
When it comes to weather and other "acts of God", no airline has responsibility (or a policy) to put up a passenger in a hotel or transfer them to another carrier.

Then AA is terribly inconsistent...because they've put me on US, UA and DL before when I was stationed in San Antonio and wx was hampering DFW ops. And that was to get to OKC...and I went via SLC, PHX and DEN. Out of the way, but I got there.


Note: I finally got on the phone with someone at AA on Friday and got the full refund...which is why I then booked a mileage o/w on WN. Say what you will about WN's lack of TRUE hub and spoke system, but it paid off for them...I ran into several folks who were supposed to fly through DAL to various locations and were all re-routed from OKC through other various WN airports to their final destinations. It's times like what just happened where the hub and spoke system really comes back to bite the majors in the ***.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:39 am

It happens. My greatest/worst story of this happening was flying into GFK from MSP. It was the last flight of the night, maybe a 10:20PM departure. As we start descending into GFK the CA/FO comes onto the PA and says that runway conditions may preclude us from landing immediately. We have to circle outside of GFK for a while until the runway is cleared. After about 10 trips in the circuit at maybe 10,000 ft. we get another PA saying we'll be returning to MSP as the runway is still not cleared. Flash-forward to 2AM and I'm still sitting on line waiting for a hotel voucher from what I guess is a skeleton staff that remains at MSP overnight. As it turns out, I got on the 10:20PM flight the next evening, sans upgrade (my only Silver Elite upgrade miss on MSP-GFK-MSP while I was going to school there).
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6104
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 27):
figures a company in chp 11 couldn't send an a/c to AUS or OKC instead of 800 mi back to ORD

AUS and OKC were already likely full of diverts. A lesson learned through past experiences is that diversion airports can only accomodate a certain number of airplanes or passengers without causing logistical problems, and/or violating the 3 hour rule.

ORD allowed some passenger to get rebooked to onward cities over ORD, allowed for some passengers to just go home and try again the next day, did not strand an aircraft, and allows for replacement crews.

Quoting SATexan (Reply 26):
Just a curious question: Which airline(s) currently put passengers standed due to weather issues in hotels / motels?

At all of the United State airlines the normal policy is that they do not put passengers up in hotels due to weather, an act of god. There are some cases where they may out of good will but that is by far the exception. They often can provide discounted hotel vouchers.

The reality is, if you can afford to purchase airfare for several hundred doolars, you probably can afford an extra $100-$150 for a hotel room (if business travel, its on your company). Does the state highway department put you up for the night when they close the interstate due to bad weather?

That being said, when a hub site goes down to weather, there will be a lot of stranded people. Hotel rooms near the aircraft will quickly become a scare commodity. If you are on one of the later passengers to get stuck, there may be not rooms within a 15 mile radius. You could rent a car, if you want to pay, or drive in the horrendous weather. Sometimes it becomes a matter of cost vs. benefit. Say its already 11:30pm when you find out you are stuck, you get rebooked on a 6:00am departure.

Doing the math, does it make sense to pay $100+ for a room that you will check in to at 12:30am and then have to leave at 4:30am to make the flight.

Quoting SATexan (Reply 26):
The concessions gain a lot of business when you have thousands of stranded passengers. Why should AA pay money for this service when they are not gaining anything by having stranded passengers while the concessions have all the opportunity to print extra money ??

The airlines do not general interact directly with the airport vendors. Almost every major airport now has an after-hours vending plan in place. Some places they will keep a McDonalds open late, other places it is simply vending machines.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
Once on the ground at another airport, if they cannot resume flying due to crew duty times, etc. then put people on a bus if it isn't to far. OKC is 200 miles away in I-35, about a 3 hour bus ride, SAT is 5 hours by bus. In other words, always keep moving your customers towards their destination if at all possible. No, a bus ride from ORD to DFW is not an option, but one from OKC, SAT, or AUS is.

Getting busses organized just is not always feasible. Where are you giong to move the customers to?

Think about this:
18:00 - Flight diverts to OKC, looks like they may get out of OKC by 20:00
20:00 - DFW still closed, now need to get passengers off the aircraft to stay within 3 hour rule
21:00 - Passengers off aircraft, crew is going to time out if they do not leave by 22:00
22:00 - Crew times out, call is made to get charter buses
23:30 - Busses staged ready to go to DFW (mind you it is 11:30pm, also the weather is likely going to make the drive slower)
2:30 - Busses arrive at DFW, airport is full of stranded passengers for the night, hotel rooms full within 20 miles of DFW

What is the point of getting busses ready to go when they are going to arrive in the middle of the night to an overcrowded airport terminal without any flights leaving until the next morning and no hotel rooms. This may only benefit the few passengers terminating at DFW but keep in mind it could now be the middle of the night.

Instead passenger could stay in OKC, have a better chance of getting a hotel, limited the crowding at DFW, and resume travel the next day. Those that are in dire need to get there quicker could in theory rent a car.
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:30 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 13):
So not following pre-established guidlines to assist pax in need will save your job...but offering to help someone affected by your airline's travel disruptions might get you laid off...brilliant logic if it's really the case!

That is how things work now, yes.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
They cannot fly through a squal line to get to the destination, but they can divert. Once on the ground at another airport, if they cannot resume flying due to crew duty times, etc. then put people on a bus if it isn't to far. OKC is 200 miles away in I-35, about a 3 hour bus ride, SAT is 5 hours by bus. In other words, always keep moving your customers towards their destination if at all possible.

And how expensive would it be to have all those buses chartered and ready to go? In today's world of bargain basement fares, you can't expect that sort of stuff.

That said, I'm typing this post from a hotel room in SLC, paid for by DL, because I missed my connection due to a late arriving aircraft. I don't know what the reason for the delay was, since it was never mentioned (the ground staff at the departure airport did not handle things very well), but the gesture is very much appreciated.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dfwagt
Posts: 72
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:47 am

[quote=AWACSooner,reply=33]...and why AA is at the top of my **** list right now

We are at the top of a lot of people's s**t list now, but because you had to deal with some bad people, don't lump us all into the same category. I have no problem sending someone to another carrier if we can't get the job done . It's not helping me or the situation to have you standing in my face any longer than nessecary. I'm glad WN was able to take care of you. obviously the ball was dropped. Too bad for you it happened at an out station.
 
ual1kflyer
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:24 am

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:58 am

LHUSA, I was down in DFW on Monday night on UX 3748 to ORD. The big problem as 747fan said was the lightening. The inbound plane for us was from ORD landed fine (picking its way through the weather), but then had to sit on the ramp 20 yards from the gate for 45 minutes+ because the ramp was closed due to the lightening. Everytime it looked like we might get an interval of no lightening -- pow, more lightening. I was at gate E6 (and the United Club) which has a good view of AA concourse C and they were dead--totally shut down. Planes wing tip to wing tip. Once the ramp opened again, everyone got to work and lauched the planes. We were third in line because we were just an RJ, and some of our PAX had give up, I think. We were ultimately only about 90 minutes late. UA cancelled EWR and IAH, but kept ORD and DEN. Everyone was frustrated. UA handeled it pretty well, though, at least for ORD. The pilot said that dispatch added 100 miles to the routing to go around the storm -- DFW-OKC-KC-ORD.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2181
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:13 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):

Why should the airport have to pay? It's not our customers, it is the airlines's customers.

How does the airport pay for concessions to stay open? At least here at MSP, it is in the lease that the concessions stay will stay open late and the concessions make lots of money from the stranded pax...nobody pays anybody anything.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 1770
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 35):
AUS and OKC were already likely full of diverts.

No, OKC wasn't...we only got 3...one from TUS, one from ELP, and one from PHL.

Quoting dfwagt (Reply 37):

We are at the top of a lot of people's s**t list now, but because you had to deal with some bad people, don't lump us all into the same category. I have no problem sending someone to another carrier if we can't get the job done . It's not helping me or the situation to have you standing in my face any longer than nessecary.

I sincerely hope you didn't mean that last statement, because that is EXACTLY why AA isn't getting my business for the foreseeable future, and EXACTLY the kind of attitude that most of the AA folks in OKC assumed the other day...and the reason why I am not pleased with AA. Believe me, I wasn't the only one who was told to pound sand by those folks...
My travel was disrupted...ok, by an act of God...but the responsibility of AA was to get me from point A to point B in a reasonable time fashion...THAT is part of their contract of carriage. It was pretty obvious that they couldn't uphold that contract. Fine. But telling me "you're on your own...best of luck," is NOT a way to earn future business. And since they're the face of the company at that point in time, it's rather hard for me NOT to lump them in with the greater group. Sorry, but this "you've been standing here too long, I'm not going to help you" mentality isn't conducive towards earning $$...

[Edited 2012-03-22 05:39:13]
 
Logos
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 33):
Quoting Logos (Reply 30):
When it comes to weather and other "acts of God", no airline has responsibility (or a policy) to put up a passenger in a hotel or transfer them to another carrier.

Then AA is terribly inconsistent...because they've put me on US, UA and DL before when I was stationed in San Antonio and wx was hampering DFW ops. And that was to get to OKC...and I went via SLC, PHX and DEN. Out of the way, but I got there.

Just out of curiosity were you traveling with a Military ID those times and not this time? I have two sons in the Marines and my experience the airlines (AA included) really go the extra mile for them, particularly when they're traveling under orders. If you were traveling under orders out of SAT but not this past time out of OKC that alone could account for the difference in their treatment of you. It could also be that under Chapter 11, re-booking passengers on other carriers is seen as a last resort.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6104
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RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:50 pm

Look, I've got the "you're on your own, best of luck...." in one shape or form from AA, NW, DL, UA. Frankly, it is bound to happen sometimes.

Most of the time the frontline employees are frazzled, have been verbally beaten-down already by dozens and dozens of previous passengers, and in many cases the natural reaction is to become defensive. They are stuck because in many cases they just do not have a lot of options at hand. The agents have to go within what is allowed by their company policy.

The agents do not control capacity at other airlines, do not control airport services, do not control hotel vacancies, do not control rental car reservations. The agent can only do the best they can to get you to your destination at the next available possibility which some sometimes take 24-36 hours. Often the computer has rebooked you on the next available but the agents can sometimes find other options.

It is up to you as a passenger to make the choice to do what you need to do outside or above and beyond what the airline can offer in terms of transportation or accomodations.

That being said, to get the best outcome of these situations when dealing with an overwhelmed agent in IRROP situations:
1) Be polite and professional - they've already been worked up by other passengers they don't need more angry people coming their way to blame them for situations beyond their control
2) Have a plan in mind - make a suggestion about possible rebooks (e.g., could you send me out tomorrow over ORD, or I will drive to DFW tonight could you rebook me on a DFW-XXX flight in the morning). The worst the agent can do is say no or it is not available, but it can help get them thinking of some alternative options
3) Ask what can you give me for vouchers, coupons - if they have something that they can give (within their policy) they can, people often forget to ask

[Edited 2012-03-22 05:51:38]
 
dfwagt
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:39 pm

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:35 pm

[quote=AWACSooner,reply=40]I sincerely hope you didn't mean that last statement

Sure, I did. If we are unable to do the job, then I am going to try to find someone that can. Either you miss interpereted what I said or I just wasn't clear. I have no problem transferring you to another carrier if we can't get the job done. Getting you out of my face and on your way frees me up to help the masses behind you.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 1770
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: AA Flies Back To ORD Bc No Gates At DFW

Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting dfwagt (Reply 43):
Sure, I did. If we are unable to do the job, then I am going to try to find someone that can. Either you miss interpereted what I said or I just wasn't clear. I have no problem transferring you to another carrier if we can't get the job done. Getting you out of my face and on your way frees me up to help the masses behind you.

Then you missed my point...THEY DIDN'T GET THE JOB DONE!!! They brushed me aside like I wasn't important. I offered them several alternative options...via another hub...via another airline...just refund my ticket...they REFUSED to help me. Fine, so they were frazzled...we all get that way. Being military, I know how tough it is to remain professional and level-headed...but I know I kept my cool. I did nothing to provoke the response I got from them.

Quoting Logos (Reply 41):
Just out of curiosity were you traveling with a Military ID those times and not this time? I have two sons in the Marines and my experience the airlines (AA included) really go the extra mile for them, particularly when they're traveling under orders. If you were traveling under orders out of SAT but not this past time out of OKC that alone could account for the difference in their treatment of you. It could also be that under Chapter 11, re-booking passengers on other carriers is seen as a last resort.

Dave, not during those instances...I don't play the military card unless I have to (i.e. free checked bags). I didn't then...and I didn't again on Tuesday.

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