ZKOJH
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Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:21 am

Good news for Hong Kong;

Hong Kong's Executive Council has approved "in principle" the construction of a third runway at its international airport.

The runway, which is expected to cost $17bn (£11bn), will be Hong Kong's most expensive project.

The airport is expected to operate at full capacity by 2020.

There have been fears of air traffic congestion, though the expansion plans have also faced opposition due to environmental concerns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17443322
Vietnam time..
 
Cipango
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:26 am

$17bn is a lot to spend on a third runway in my opinion. Lets just hope they can guarantee the economic return to pay it off!
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redrooster3
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:48 am

Who will benefit to the third runway? From the picture, it looks to be a pretty lengthy runway. 15,000?+
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Independence76
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:53 am

Isn't 17bn nearly half of the actual airport's construction budget back in 1995?
 
PHX787
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:56 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Thread starter):
The airport is expected to operate at full capacity by 2020.

It says "full capacity" but that doesn't really tell us an expected date of completion...when do you all think something like this will be finished?
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:09 am

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 3):
Isn't 17bn nearly half of the actual airport's construction budget back in 1995?

If you look at the graphics, what they are creating is at least half the size of the current airport. It will include a lot of extra space for terminal and cargo development.


Dan  
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mogandoCI
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:25 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):

HKIA was entirely built from scratch within 7 years... The new runway? 4-5 years max.
 
crAAzy
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:39 am

Wow! It looks from the photo like they'll almost be doubling the size of the airport. - Much more than just a 3rd runway!
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:52 am

I was just at HKG and as massive as it is, there were a lot of gates in use in the morning peak. With all the mainlanders going to Hong Kong for their shopping, I think the increase will come from flights to/from China.
 
jsnww81
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 6):
HKIA was entirely built from scratch within 7 years... The new runway? 4-5 years max.

Oh, for the days when infrastructure projects in the West worked that way. Nowadays, it would take a US city 4-5 years just to investigate the possibility of thinking about considering the feasibility of forming a committee to study options for a new runway somewhere. In the UK they would spend 4-5 years debating the color, length, width and thickness of the paper to be used for the New Runway Public Inquiry Report (and probably would cancel everything the week before it was released.) The Canadians would build a new runway, but would offset protests levying a 600% usage fee tax on passengers. About the only Western country that seems to build transport infrastructure in a hurry is Spain, and it turns out some of it was kind of questionable anyhow (Ciudad Real Airport, anyone?)

Hyperbole? Sure. I'm hugely oversimplifying the political, environmental, financial and geographic constraints faced by most Western markets. But Western "experts" spend all this time navel-gazing about how and why the Asian economies are catching up to and/or pulling ahead of them, and far-sighted infrastructure spending is certainly a piece of the answer.

In the meantime, congrats to HKG. The Pearl River Delta region is getting a lot more airport capacity in the next few years - CAN is building a third runway and SZX is practically tripling in size with a new runway and terminal complex.
 
aquablue
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:32 am

The US has airports that have massive runway counts, including the new O'Hare project which will have 5 or 6 parallel runways (DFW, DEN, etc) !! I wouldn't be complaining. As for some of the cities that need new runways like NY, or SF, that is just extremely bad planning from decades ago and having no future vision to prevent such present constraints on development (i.e, poor locations for airports).

Asia builds airports that have room to expand and plan well for the future. They spend money to fix the problem so that in the future they won't be left stuck with a bigger one.

[Edited 2012-03-20 19:36:15]

[Edited 2012-03-20 19:37:14]
 
MarcoPoloWorld
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 9):
Western "experts" spend all this time navel-gazing about how and why the Asian economies are catching up to and/or pulling ahead of them, and far-sighted infrastructure spending is certainly a piece of the answer.

In the meantime, congrats to HKG.

Well said.   
 
ghifty
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:44 am

So.. this is more or less an expansion, and not so much just a third runway being added (like at SEA)?

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 11):
Well said.   

Something to bring up in Econ. tomorrow!

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 7):
Wow! It looks from the photo like they'll almost be doubling the size of the airport. - Much more than just a 3rd runway!

I'm inclined to say almost tripled, even..
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lightsaber
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:51 am

Congrats to Hong Kong. Now what is the cost of the proposed 4th runway?  

Seriously, what happened to when the US built infrastructure with 15 years of growth built in? Sigh...

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
It will include a lot of extra space for terminal and cargo development.

   It won't just be airside capacity...

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 9):
Oh, for the days when infrastructure projects in the West worked that way.

sigh...

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 9):
The Pearl River Delta region is getting a lot more airport capacity in the next few years - CAN is building a third runway and SZX is practically tripling in size with a new runway and terminal complex.

Let's not forget 2 more runways for PVG and the new 8 runway Beijing airport! To think people ask 'where could you have airline growth?' Folks, for the next 15 years, expect half the growth to be in Asia.

I wish the US would expand. Move LAX's northernmost runway a few hundred feed north and build what was once called the West Terminal.    Build a new airport for SAN (or dramatically expand the current airport... unlikely, but I've seen proposals). At least DEN is building more ground transport (as is IAD). A 6th runway and more terminals at ATL, etc.

If you don't grow, you rot. Let's grow!

Note: We should include Europe. e.g., BER could have been a 3 runway 24/7 airport... FRA night ops? Naaa... who wants that growth. LHR?    Ok, Thames estuary airport?    2nd runway at STN, LGW (w/doubling of terminals and better ground transport), or LTN    and yes, the last would be very unlikely.

Instead we have growth in China, the mid-east, and a few other locations. Then on a.net they complain that the growth is happening where the infrastructure (and regulations) allow it... sigh...

Lightsaber
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StanleyJ
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
It says "full capacity" but that doesn't really tell us an expected date of completion...when do you all think something like this will be finished?

It's all in the 2030 Master Plan *drumrolls*

http://www.hkairport2030.com/en/

The whole 3rd runway was just a minor formality... on the plus side, the hideous to use (by HKG-SIN-ICN standards) Terminal 2 for 2nd tier airlines will get reconfigured. Huzzah!
 
r2rho
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:54 am

So has the far-spaced third runway option been chosen? I remember having seen several layouts being discussed in a previous thread somewhere, some including 4th rwy options.
 
flythere
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting cipango (Reply 1):
$17bn is a lot to spend on a third runway in my opinion. Lets just hope they can guarantee the economic return to pay it off!

The expected economic benefit up to year 2050 is about $120bn AFAIR. 17bn isnt solely on the extra tarmac but also includes all the supporting facilities, new passenger terminal, underground train system, extra fire stations and so forth..

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 3):
Isn't 17bn nearly half of the actual airport's construction budget back in 1995?

Yea, (actually back then 1992) inflation and higher standards of infrastructure play important roles in the ever-high capital-needed project.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 6):
HKIA was entirely built from scratch within 7 years... The new runway? 4-5 years max.

I would say longer than that. The current airport site was built out of the sea by completely leveling two sizable islands and using the material to build up the land. This time there is no on site island, even if they were going to level another island they would have to ship the fill to HKG which adds time and difficulty.


Dan  
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zeke
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting ZKOJH (Thread starter):

The runway, which is expected to cost $17bn (£11bn), will be Hong Kong's most expensive project.

How much is that new rail line to the mainland cost ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
StanleyJ
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):
How much is that new rail line to the mainland cost ?

HK$66.8 billion (US$8.6 billion). Of the 2009 variety... and should be a nice big white elephant.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 17):
I would say longer than that. The current airport site was built out of the sea by completely leveling two sizable islands and using the material to build up the land. This time there is no on site island, even if they were going to level another island they would have to ship the fill to HKG which adds time and difficulty.


Dan  

They've done way more in the original building of the airport. It included 2 bridges (and one of the longest suspension car/rail bridge in the world), an entire highway and rail system, plus an entire airport.

Filling the ocean for 1 runway is not all that work (the water isn't painfully deep like at KIX)
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
It says "full capacity" but that doesn't really tell us an expected date of completion...when do you all think something like this will be finished?


This press release at HKIA http://www.hongkongairport.com/eng/media/press-releases/pr_1060.html has a zip file attached, including an overall timeline. Which is 11 years. It's not quite clear where they are in the process, but I doubt they would open the 3rd runway much before the additional terminals are ready.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:47 pm

If only that said LHR instead of Hong Kong in the Title to the thread   

Looks like a massive project they are going way into the bay, kudos to HKG
 
B2443
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting StanleyJ (Reply 19):
HK$66.8 billion (US$8.6 billion). Of the 2009 variety... and should be a nice big white elephant

Wasn't the high speed rail project shot down already? If HK were to pay for it, why? They could just hop on a light rail over to Shenzhen and they will be all set. If the mainland were to pay for it, again why? HSR extersion from Shenzhen to HongKong won't benefit the mainland much at all. They can't even go there freely. They could use the money to build better schools in the inland areas.

My question is who are paying for the project? HK SAR, the Mainland, or cost sharing between the two?
 
StanleyJ
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting jet-lagged (Reply 21):
They've done way more in the original building of the airport. It included 2 bridges (and one of the longest suspension car/rail bridge in the world), an entire highway and rail system, plus an entire airport.

The Airport Core Programme was estimated to cost HK$200billion (US$25billion)... way back in the late 80's/early 90's. Even at the average rate of inflation of 5% (CPI) in Hong Kong. 1 dollar then is about 2.50 dollars now (the HKD:USD remained the same, so same which ever dollar we talk about). So that's HK$0.5trillion(!) or US$60billion of the 2010-ish variety. So an extra runway, new piers, APM extension, plus some Terminal 2 reconfiguration for about 1/3~1/4 the cost of building the original airport... about "right" really.
 
warren747sp
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:48 pm

What we really need at EWR n certainly LHR!
747SP
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 20):
They've done way more in the original building of the airport. It included 2 bridges (and one of the longest suspension car/rail bridge in the world), an entire highway and rail system, plus an entire airport.

Designed and built concurrently at a pace unprecedented by anything before or after thanks to the handover deadline, but it still took 7 years to construct.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 20):
Filling the ocean for 1 runway is not all that work (the water isn't painfully deep like at KIX)

Constructing 6 square kilometers of land is a huge amount of work, especially when there is no obvious source for the fill material. The pace of previous construction isn't required and to try and match it would add a lot more cost.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
boeing773er
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting StanleyJ (Reply 14):

Oh wow, I just watched the video they have posted and they seemed like this runway needed to be built if Hong Kong wanted to be an economical powerhouse.

But congratulations HKG on the development.
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mogandoCI
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 26):
Constructing 6 square kilometers of land is a huge amount of work, especially when there is no obvious source for the fill material. The pace of previous construction isn't required and to try and match it would add a lot more cost.

Like you said, it could be concurrent. It's not 1 truck going back-n-forth trying to create 6 sq km by itself.  
 
super80
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:11 pm

HK government should have just kept Kai Tak open back then. lol
It would have been a lot cheaper and i'm sure many would still enjoy flying into Kai Tai  )
 
kaitak
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting super80 (Reply 29):
HK government should have just kept Kai Tak open back then. lol It would have been a lot cheaper and i'm sure many would still enjoy flying into Kai Tai )

If only !

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
If you don't grow, you rot. Let's grow!

Note: We should include Europe. e.g., BER could have been a 3 runway 24/7 airport... FRA night ops? Naaa... who wants that growth. LHR? Ok, Thames estuary airport? 2nd runway at STN, LGW (w/doubling of terminals and better ground transport), or LTN and yes, the last would be very unlikely.

So true; Britain is falling behind because its government has been in ostrich mode for the past two years; there are signs that it is recognising its fault now, but not before even its European competitors - CDG, FRA, AMS, MUC - have stolen a march. As recently as today, in the UK finance minister 's (Chancellor's) budget speech, the need for extra runway capacity was stated.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Hong Kong Approves Third Runway

Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 28):
Like you said, it could be concurrent. It's not 1 truck going back-n-forth trying to create 6 sq km by itself.

Of course there is going to be more than one machine involved, they are moving 90 million cubic meters of sediment out and 75 million cubic meters of fill in.

The point is that it took 7 years of around the clock construction with a massive workforce to build the current airport when it should ordinarily have taken a lot, lot longer. There are not the same social/economic pressures in place now, so there is no need for such an expensive and rapid pace to be set. Some of the timelines I have seen suggest individual phases of reclamation and construction will take 5-6 years alone, and there is a limit to how these can progress concurrently with other processes.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...

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