gen2stew
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AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:53 am

Does this mean that AA intends to impose it own terms on the Unions...? See attaches article from Reuters News Service:


NEW YORK (Reuters) - AMR Corp , the bankrupt parent of American Airlines, will ask a U.S. bankruptcy court to reject nine collective bargaining agreements with unions, after failing to secure cost-cutting concessions from its labor groups, Bloomberg News reported on Wednesday.

Barring any last-minute agreement during ongoing negotiations with its unions, AMR will seek court approval to terminate the union contracts within a week in the Manhattan bankruptcy court, Bloomberg said, citing two sources it did not name.


AMR to seek termination of union contracts: Bloomberg

[Edited 2012-03-22 10:10:53 by SA7700]
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sccutler
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:56 am

This was inevitable.
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delta2ual
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:56 pm

Why wouldn't AA agree to binding arbitration? The unions (at least the APFA) have pushed for this. Why is the company afraid to let a neutral third party decide upon a fair agreement? I'm all for companies doing what they need to do for survival, but when they want to just throw out 9 contracts and not use an arbitrator, it just makes it sound like they want to cut more than they actually need.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
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seabosdca
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:59 pm

Unsurprising, IMO. If they hadn't at least threatened this, going into Chapter 11 would have been pointless.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 2):
Why wouldn't AA agree to binding arbitration?

What incentive does AA have to do that? It will likely get better terms by rejecting the agreements.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 2):
Why wouldn't AA agree to binding arbitration?

9 months ago, Im sure they would have.

Now, its too little too late.
It is what it is...
 
JFKPurser
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 2):

Why wouldn't AA agree to binding arbitration? The unions (at least the APFA) have pushed for this. Why is the company afraid to let a neutral third party decide upon a fair agreement? I'm all for companies doing what they need to do for survival, but when they want to just throw out 9 contracts and not use an arbitrator, it just makes it sound like they want to cut more than they actually need.

Exactly right. Right now, AA's FA costs are alms at par with DL. Just freezing the FA pension plan brings AA to a very competitive position relative to UA and DL. The remainder of what AA is demanding in its term sheet, at least as far as FAs go, is an attempt to use the BK process to get its costs substantially below UA/DL, even though that's not what they are admitting. The arbitrator would have basically leveled AA's costs with UA and DL. And that would have meant that AA would have gotten only a fraction of the items on its list. So it comes as no surprise that AA would say no to binding arbitration, even though that would be most fair.

Once the 1113 motion is filed, it is up to the judge to determine if AA ever really bargained in good faith. And the fact that they have 9 contracts they were unable to achieve any agreements on does not serve them well. It is now up to each union to argue that case to the judge, and to present real cost analyses on each term compared to AA's versions, which AA has in past contract negotiations skewed to their advantage. It's no secret they are doing that now. The judge can then either grant AA everything it is asking for, or -- if he believes AA has not bargained in good faith -- send everyone back to the bargaining table, at which point some sort of mutual agreement will be expected.
 
incitatus
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:43 pm

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 5):
Exactly right. Right now, AA's FA costs are alms at par with DL.

I am so glad we have an unbiased, uninterested party like yourself telling everybody the truth.  
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ASFlyer
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 6):

Oh please, nobody here is "unbiased". You have the union haters, the armchair CEO's, the airplane lovers that think airline employees should work for free so the skies will be filled with lots of fun airplanes for them to look at and you have the airline employees. Nobody is "unbiased", we all have opinions - some stronger than others. For most here, airlines is a hobby, for the airline employees here it's the way they make their living. Their bias should at least be understood even if you don't agree.
 
ldvaviation
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 5):
Exactly right. Right now, AA's FA costs are alms at par with DL.

Come on! Who is telling you this stuff?

"[Laura] Glading also does not mention that her flight attendants are the highest paid among her network peers according to MIT’s Airline Data Project; the least productive in terms of hours flown per month; generally lagging in terms of passengers served per flight attendant equivalent; and the beneficiary of a relatively costly benefit package."

Excerpt from "What would Yoda say to the APFA?," Swelblog 04/19/10. If you go to the article on Swelblog, you will find the links to the MIT Airline Data Project.
 
ikramerica
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 1):
This was inevitable.

Thank the pilot union mostly.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 2):
Why is the company afraid to let a neutral third party decide upon a fair agreement?

Why would they? They are asking for what is the best terms for them, but the court need not grant it. They might allow it for some contracts, and order arbitration for others, and mediation for others.

But AA won't ask for what they would settle for, they will ask for their best case, and then see what happens. What good negotiator ever reveals what they would settle for?

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
the least productive in terms of hours flown per month;

That's the important part. You might be "almost on par" with your peers in hourly, but if you are less productive, that means more employees than your competitors, and each employee has benefits costs.
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Flighty
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:16 pm

Arbitration is a silly word in this case that cloaks an idea they have total legal privilege above the law. Given the GM bankruptcy history, who knows, maybe they are right. Maybe they can command a federal judge to do illegal things, giving unions a status above other citizens. But hopefully not.
 
flyingcat
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:28 pm

USAPA has kind of killed the idea of settling union disputes with arbitration
 
flyfree727
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 7):
Oh please, nobody here is "unbiased". You have the union haters, the armchair CEO's, the airplane lovers that think airline employees should work for free so the skies will be filled with lots of fun airplanes for them to look at and you have the airline employees. Nobody is "unbiased", we all have opinions - some stronger than others

EXACTLY

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 7):
For most here, airlines is a hobby

For many others, it is an OBSESSION!!!

I would imagine many on here will join in on "popping the champaigne" when the contracts are void.

To them I say whatever.. Im still flying the skies for a living and your not.

AA ORD
 
klkla
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:18 pm

USAir, Delta, United and Northwest all managed to make it through BK in recent years and negotiate agreements with their employees and not have to resort to this option. This really speaks to just how poor AA's relationship is with it's own employees. Very sad.
 
as739x
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 7):

Well said!!!!
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Revelation
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 2):
Why is the company afraid to let a neutral third party decide upon a fair agreement?

The answer is in your question: AA doesn't want a fair agreement, they want the agreement that is best for them, and they have calculated that this is the best way to get it.

It is a risky strategy, because a judge has great latitude in BK.
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PlaneAdmirer
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:56 pm

AA will propose the terms that best serve its interests and provides the greatest flexiblity (long hauls, 787, scope clauses, work rules, etc.). If the judge allows it, then the employees will make a decision if they want to stay on or not. If enough chose not to, then AA may have to revisit the offer.

Alternatively, the unions could get a lot closer to the AA position (offer UA and DL terms) and AA could move some too and both sides would have less risk of getting a ruling that is even more unfavorable or provides more uncertainity.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting GEN2STEW (Thread starter):
AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

I guess this now paves the way for AA to get rid of the bad apples easier so that they can actually start driving in revenue and get stuff done. Either earn your pay or find a different job, it seems like:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
AA doesn't want a fair agreement, they want the agreement that is best for them, and they have calculated that this is the best way to get it.

   AA will do what is best for the company, not the employees. I am not surprised they would take this route.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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par13del
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:05 pm

I would love to see the union "encourage" their members to start looking for work now, if they stay and accept whatever AA and the judge throws at them I hope that they accept that they chose to stay and don't create an attitude problem going forward. Sometimes it's hard to swallow, one is better off moving on.
 
skyrat
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
Quoting GEN2STEW (Thread starter):
AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

I guess this now paves the way for AA to get rid of the bad apples easier so that they can actually start driving in revenue and get stuff done. Either earn your pay or find a different job, it seems like:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
AA doesn't want a fair agreement, they want the agreement that is best for them, and they have calculated that this is the best way to get it.

AA will do what is best for the company, not the employees. I am not surprised they would take this route.

How about the company start cutting at the top first? You start cutting salary at the top and show everyone down the chain that everyone in the company has to do their share. It's people like you that have made this site worse. It's just like ASFlyer said, you all want to see airline employees making peanuts in what is a very high stressful job. Then you turn around and bash how bad the customer service has gotten!
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ckfred
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting klkla (Reply 13):
USAir, Delta, United and Northwest all managed to make it through BK in recent years and negotiate agreements with their employees and not have to resort to this option.

I thought United did try to end their contracts and impose a settlement. I remember that UA ultimately negotiated new agreements. The F/As were doing a lot of sabre rattling in terms of a CHOAS strike, although they never actually did a walk-out, just the informational picketing.
 
sbworcs
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting skyrat (Reply 19):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
Quoting GEN2STEW (Thread starter):
AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

I guess this now paves the way for AA to get rid of the bad apples easier so that they can actually start driving in revenue and get stuff done. Either earn your pay or find a different job, it seems like:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
AA doesn't want a fair agreement, they want the agreement that is best for them, and they have calculated that this is the best way to get it.

AA will do what is best for the company, not the employees. I am not surprised they would take this route.

How about the company start cutting at the top first? You start cutting salary at the top and show everyone down the chain that everyone in the company has to do their share. It's people like you that have made this site worse. It's just like ASFlyer said, you all want to see airline employees making peanuts in what is a very high stressful job. Then you turn around and bash how bad the customer service has gotten!

Made the site worse because their opinion differs from yours?

I don't see anything you quoted as them saying that airline staff should work for peanuts. One was stating that maybe some of the less productive workers may leave and the other was expressing little surprise at the news.

Neither appeared to state you should work for nothing?
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AirframeAS
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting skyrat (Reply 19):
How about the company start cutting at the top first?

I agree. The cuts have to come from the top then work your way down.

Quoting skyrat (Reply 19):
It's people like you that have made this site worse.

What is that supposed to mean? What does this site have to do with AA's financial woes?    This site did not make nor force AA into Ch. 11, and neither did any of the A.netters here. Your claim here has absolutely no merit.

Quoting skyrat (Reply 19):
you all want to see airline employees making peanuts in what is a very high stressful job.

I believe in a fair pay. I do not believe in pay that is ridiculously high that do not reflect the type of job that is being done when it should be at fair pay. (IE: A ramper making $17-19 an hour to start when it should be $12 an hour to start....)

Quoting skyrat (Reply 19):
Then you turn around and bash how bad the customer service has gotten!

  I have never, ever, ever bashed how bad the airline customer service was on this website. Ever.   

The point I was trying to make is that there are some real bad apples at every airline here in the U.S. I should know because I work with a few of them at my airline. But it is what it is. I'm not a supervisor so there is nothing I can do about it but to put up with it. It is management's job to change these people or sack them. There are a lot of people at every airline that just shows up for work and do nothing, getting paid for it at the same time. That practice has got to stop. That is where money gets thrown away. Those are the types of people that either have to start contributing or let them go. I see this laziness and sense of entitlement every day from those people. I am sure EA CO AS has seen that as well at his airline.

When your company is in chapter 11, all bets are off. Everyone has to start contributing to ensure the companies survival. If they cannot do that, they should not be there. Every cent counts. I can see why AA is doing what it is doing now.

They are a business, not an adult-child daycare.
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N62NA
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
AA will do what is best for the company, not the employees.

However, doing what is best for the company also means not screwing the employees, because without the employees, there is no company.  
 
ripcordd
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:50 pm

They have refused to give an inch from them asking for the world. This is a very risky part on AA I don't see the judge saying ok here you go with all the 99% protests against corp. greed etc. AA wants to cut their costs way below what AA/DL are I see the judge saying you have your unions agreeing to binding arbitatraion and you refuse to go shows the company is not in good faith trying to achieve a contract. Or he could say that DL.UA are making millions of dollars with their contracts why do you need a contract way below what they?
 
manny
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
The point I was trying to make is that there are some real bad apples at every airline here in the U.S.

You are being politically correct.

The reality would be that at this point of time most of the flying public would wonder if there are some really bad apples at very airline or infact if that a great majority of them are bad apples. Customer service is downright atrocious in almost all circumstances. This may not be a popular opinion on this site but its very true.

Now the management deserves its share of blame. But its ironical that the very same people who take the management to task for not doing their jobs are always defending the employees when they do not do their jobs.
 
MLD9S
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:07 pm

I have a question (and it is not pro- or anti-AMR or employee).....

I have read so many times over the years that the first bankruptcy filing of Continental Airlines back in the early 80s caused laws regarding bankruptcies and union contracts to be changed.....

(Texas Air acquiring CO, a strike and bankruptcy resulting and all contracts voided...)

My understanding was that no longer, as a result of that situation, could an airline (or, I guess, any company) file bankruptcy and void union contracts.

What am I missing?

What did CO do that was so different than this (or any other recent airline bankruptcy reorganization)? Did CO just eliminate the unions all together?

I really am asking a sincere question... what laws changed as a result of Lorenzo and the CO bankruptcy? I know SOMETHING regarding contracts and unions changed....
Midway Airlines. Our Spirit Will Lift You.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting manny (Reply 25):
You are being politically correct.

Politically correct or not, it is a fact. They are everywhere at every company, airline or not.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):
without the employees, there is no company.

That is a true statement.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
I'm not a supervisor so there is nothing I can do about it but to put up with it. It is management's job to change these people or sack them. There are a lot of people at every airline that just shows up for work and do nothing, getting paid for it at the same time. That practice has got to stop. That is where money gets thrown away. Those are the types of people that either have to start contributing or let them go.

The thing is, generally speaking, management IS doing something about it. The problem is it that it takes a long time to bring about positive change, and it's never transparent - the co-worker you or others perceive as being a screw-off who doesn't do his fair share of the work might be getting repeated, aggressive counseling from management behind closed-doors and even being marched through progressive steps of discipline if they're not improving, but you'll never know anything about it unless that employee volunteers the info. Otherwise the only time you see "anything being done" is when:

  • their work performance improves


  • or

  • they're terminated and are escorted off the property


  • Unfortunately, that's the way it has to be; counseling employees on performance issues and issuing progressive steps of discipline for non-performance simply cannot be transparent - management has to respect the privacy of each employee, so you can't say to the masses, "Well, I know you think Bob is never here, and he's been out sick 10 times in the past six months, so he's in a Written Warning for attendance," or "I know you see how poorly Emily treats her customers, and she actually has received seven different customer complaints in the past six months, so she's in a Final Warning for work performance."

    Each year my company conducts an employee survey and one of the questions asked is whether or not the company does a good job of holding poor performers accountable. And each year, the numbers would indicate the perception among employees is that it's just not taking place. When discussing this with employees, it always comes back to one thing - there's no transparency in accountability. And when I point that out, then you see the nodding in agreement and understanding, and only then do they realize we actually ARE trying to turn those bad apples around, or weed them out if they don't improve.
    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

    Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
     
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    seabosdca
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:47 pm

    Quoting MLD9S (Reply 26):
    My understanding was that no longer, as a result of that situation, could an airline (or, I guess, any company) file bankruptcy and void union contracts.

    What am I missing?

    Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code provides special rules for employers in Chapter 11 who wish to reject CBAs (union contracts). They can still do so, but they must satisfy a long list of conditions first. I'm not that familiar with its history, but I don't think CO brought it about -- Congress added it to the Bankruptcy Code in response to a Supreme Court decision holding that CBAs were unenforceable (just like any other contract) in bankruptcy.

    A useful summary is here:

    http://www.abiworld.org/committees/n...loyeebenefits/vol6num2/section.pdf
     
    ldvaviation
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:49 pm

    Quoting MLD9S (Reply 26):
    I have a question (and it is not pro- or anti-AMR or employee).....

    I have read so many times over the years that the first bankruptcy filing of Continental Airlines back in the early 80s caused laws regarding bankruptcies and union contracts to be changed.....

    (Texas Air acquiring CO, a strike and bankruptcy resulting and all contracts voided...)

    My understanding was that no longer, as a result of that situation, could an airline (or, I guess, any company) file bankruptcy and void union contracts.

    What am I missing?

    What did CO do that was so different than this (or any other recent airline bankruptcy reorganization)? Did CO just eliminate the unions all together?

    I really am asking a sincere question... what laws changed as a result of Lorenzo and the CO bankruptcy? I know SOMETHING regarding contracts and unions changed....

    CO was able to void the contracts without judicial discretion. Labor contracts at the time were no different than other types of contract (e.g., plane leases).

    Following that, federal legislation was enacted to limit a company from unilaterally terminating its CBA's in bankruptcy court. Effectively, what that means is that a company must now receive approval from the judge before terminating its CBA's.

    In order for the judge to grant his approval, he must be convinced that the company: (1) presented a term sheet and explained its rational for each item on the term sheet, and (2) attempted to bargain in good faith. From what I have read, it is not necessary that the terms be fair. Economic reality prevails over fairness in the judgment of bankruptcy courts. If AA can make a convincing case for why the terms it has offered reflect the economic realities the enterprise is facing, the judge should side with them.
     
    futureualpilot
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:51 pm

    Quoting ikramerica (Reply 9):
    Thank the pilot union mostly.

    Yeah, because they ran the place into the ground. It couldn't have been management and their ineptitude over the last decade? Never mind that after slashing work rules and pay for employee groups, every other airline seemed to figure out how to turn a profit, but AA management couldn't. Yep, those damn dirty pilots. Never mind the huge loss of work rules and pay cuts that took 1/4 or more from several thousand employees, or the fact that they've attempted to bargain and make deals that would work for both sides, and even offered to fly the CRJ-700s at reduced wages to keep them at mainline but it was other labor groups that stopped it. Never mind that executive management's entire existence is to lead the airline in the right direction and keep it profitable, but they've clearly failed miserably while fostering a culture of unhappiness and failure, all the while enjoying nice pay raises and stock options that reward their failures. Yeah, it was the pilots and APA.

    Get your head out of your rear end. After what AA's employees did for the company after 9/11 to keep it out of bankruptcy they should be rewarded and heralded, not forced to bend over again because their leadership couldn't figure out which end was up. Blaming labor has become the asinine go to excuse for any management team with a failing business, because hey, it couldn't POSSIBLY be their fault, right? They're infallible.

    [Edited 2012-03-22 15:52:49]

    [Edited 2012-03-22 15:58:26]
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    MLD9S
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:58 pm

    Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 30):
    CO was able to void the contracts without judicial discretion. Labor contracts at the time were no different than other types of contract (e.g., plane leases).

    Following that, federal legislation was enacted to limit a company from unilaterally terminating its CBA's in bankruptcy court. Effectively, what that means is that a company must now receive approval from the judge before terminating its CBA's.

    Thank you, LDVAviation.

    So, basically, Texas Air Corp was allowed to just say: "These are the new terms of employment whether you like them or not" with no judicial oversight?

    That IS a BIG difference.

    I had heard for years that the CO bankruptcy caused labor laws during chapter 11 to be changed but I did not know how!

    I appreciate that!
    Midway Airlines. Our Spirit Will Lift You.
     
    pqdtw
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:03 pm

    Quoting klkla (Reply 13):

    No, we at Northwest as flight attendants lost our collective bargaining agreement (CBA) and were subject to an imposed TCE (Terms and Conditions of Employment) during bankruptcy.
     
    AirframeAS
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:12 pm

    Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 28):
    The thing is, generally speaking, management IS doing something about it.

    Or they claim to be. See, the problem is that when management wants to terminate someone, it is harder to do so when a union is involved. There are steps that the company has to take before the termination can occur, and that usually ends with a meeting with the union on why the company is terminating, etc etc. But at the same time, most managements do not want to go through that process, it is costly and very time consuming. So they have no choice but to keep documenting incidents and put up with it.

    I'm not saying it is a problem at my company, but I have seen these problems at other companies that I have worked for in the past. Other than that, I do agree with you EA CO AS.

    Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 28):
    Each year my company conducts an employee survey and one of the questions asked is whether or not the company does a good job of holding poor performers accountable.

    I really wished my company did that. It is a great idea to get feedback from the workforce to see where things are at now and if improvements or changes need to be implemented. Its a great idea, a very useful tool!
    A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
     
    ikramerica
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:23 pm

    Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 31):
    Yeah, because they ran the place into the ground. It couldn't have been management and their ineptitude over the last decade?

    Sorry, but the history at AA is very specific, and the APA has huge hand in this mess. They pushed out a whole management team, hand picked the replacement, failed again and again to bargain in good faith, and then painted the team they picked as the same kind of devils that the last group was supposed to be. Ultimately, a major reason why AA filed for BK was to break the APA contract, because it was inhibiting growth, making it impossible to buy new long haul aircraft or open new routes, etc.

    But what I meant by my comment was that the reason they moved to throw out the contracts was the APA, mostly. Not the whole reason they are in BK, but the reason AA is taking this particular path.

    Someone will break. We shall see who.
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    micstatic
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:27 pm

    Quoting klkla (Reply 13):

    USAir, Delta, United and Northwest all managed to make it through BK in recent years and negotiate agreements with their employees and not have to resort to this option. This really speaks to just how poor AA's relationship is with it's own employees. Very sad.

    We also must consider that it points to how unreasonable the demands of the unions are. Two sides to every coin.

    Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 31):
    Get your head out of your rear end. After what AA's employees did for the company after 9/11 to keep it out of bankruptcy they should be rewarded and heralded, not forced to bend over again because their leadership couldn't figure out which end was up.

    The whole point is that AMR can't afford to do that. If they could, they wouldn't be in CH11. Nothing about what has happened to American in the past is relevant now. The company is on the ropes and fighting to survive. And yes, I think that management was just as responsible. Personally, I thought they should have broken up the old school AA management more than they did. None of that matters at this point.
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    ikramerica
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:38 pm

    Honestly, AA should have entered BK in 2003. The fact they didn't only prolonged the inevitable, cost billions in losses, and created even more bad blood among employees. It also meant a continued degradation in product, stalling of expansion and new aircraft purchases, and stagnation.

    In that respect, all that has happened over that time is not that meaningful. To really solve this, AA needs to look at how they needed to solve it in 2003 if they were BK then, and adapt that to the current climate. And that might mean a complete contractual reset for some groups.
    Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
     
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:49 pm

    Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
    See, the problem is that when management wants to terminate someone, it is harder to do so when a union is involved. There are steps that the company has to take before the termination can occur, and that usually ends with a meeting with the union on why the company is terminating, etc etc.

    Yes and no. Most CBAs have language pertaining to what the progressive steps of discipline look like and so forth. Having said that, there are some "work performance" issues that are so egregious they don't start with one step and progress upward; for example, we had a very public issue with someone that had embezzled money from the company. That person was immediately terminated. However, for things like being rude to a customer, you coach and counsel the employee for improvement, and then begin the progressive steps - up to and including termination - if no improvement occurs.

    Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
    most managements do not want to go through that process, it is costly and very time consuming. So they have no choice but to keep documenting incidents and put up with it

    It's costly and time consuming even without being codified in a CBA; even in a right to work state you must have well-documented just-cause for dismissal, lest you end up with a wrongful termination suit on your hands. No employer wants that, so even without union involvement, most large employers will engage in the counsel/documentation route for quite awhile before letting someone go for something that's not completely egregious like insubordination, theft, etc.
    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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    ORDJOE
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:18 am

    Quoting ikramerica (Reply 37):
    Honestly, AA should have entered BK in 2003. The fact they didn't only prolonged the inevitable, cost billions in losses, and created even more bad blood among employees. It also meant a continued degradation in product, stalling of expansion and new aircraft purchases, and stagnation.

    So true

    In non union jobs if you feel your employer is screwing you over then you have the option to move to another company and start anew. The seniority system that the unions are so obsessed with essentially boxes these employees in even if AA tries to screw them over.

    Anyone who has followed AA over the past few years knew this day was coming, union and management could have avoided this, but at this point it is too late. I just hope that AA keeps flying
     
    thegoldenargosy
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:59 am

    Quoting ikramerica (Reply 37):
    Honestly, AA should have entered BK in 2003. The fact they didn't only prolonged the inevitable, cost billions in losses, and created even more bad blood among employees. It also meant a continued degradation in product, stalling of expansion and new aircraft purchases, and stagnatio

    I totally agree with you. AA has really gone downhill in the last 9yrs. Something needs to change. I'd really like to see AA split up and sold to different airlines. There just seems to be so much bad blood between the employees and management. The ineptitude in Dallas is incredible. I feel like this is another Braniff.
     
    sccutler
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:20 am

    Quoting skyrat (Reply 19):
    How about the company start cutting at the top first? You start cutting salary at the top and show everyone down the chain that everyone in the company has to do their share. It's people like you that have made this site worse. It's just like ASFlyer said, you all want to see airline employees making peanuts in what is a very high stressful job. Then you turn around and bash how bad the customer service has gotten!

    AA has been cutting non-union payroll for years, both head count and pay rates.

    Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 39):
    The seniority system that the unions are so obsessed with essentially boxes these employees in even if AA tries to screw them over.

    This... this is why the traditional railing against unions (and I've been known to object to some elements of organized labor from time to time) is not so clear-cut in the airline universe. Ignoring work rules and pay rates (for the moment), you cannot ignore the compelling value and importance of a supportive union to a pilot who has (potentially) been wrongfully accused of a misdeed. I've seen APA in action, helping pilots to defend themselves against overzealous management actions against individuals. The union can also be invaluable in assisting its members through difficult personal challenges. It is not all that cut-and-dried...

    Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 39):
    Anyone who has followed AA over the past few years knew this day was coming, union and management could have avoided this, but at this point it is too late. I just hope that AA keeps flying

    Truer words never written... AA's unions have been hard-headed to an amazing degree over the years, but it is said that management gets the union it deserves.
    ...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
     
    b6a322
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:52 am

    So would the bankruptcy court's (hypothetical) approval of these measures mean the end of the scope clause and allow AA to operate the 60-76 seat planes it wants?
    The content I post are my own thoughts, nothing more. :)
     
    suisjes
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:24 am

    Waiting for this to fall out this is going to interesting I call recession from workers then merger.. It is gonna get ugly no doubt..
     
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:36 am

    Quoting sccutler (Reply 41):

    During the early Jet age days, the words Seniority and Experience where valued. You boarded these magnificent and large machines that transported you from A to B in style. And these where the folks that made that happen. WOW!
    The most senior folks got the chance to create the trends we enjoy, but take for granted today.

    Today airtravel is a utility, it was devalued from being a transportation marvel.
    We quickly forget how hard it was to travel a mere 11 years ago, shortly after 9/11.
    When the experience turned into the preboarding gates of Irkutzk to the camps in Siberia, and if you sprinkle
    some WX/DELAYS people want to revolt and make "bills of rights". Give me a break!
    The same folks that praised Capt. Sullenberg! would shred him to pieces if they can not get off the plane in 4h.

    Seniority & Experience now mean expensive and unproductive..... you ve earned the stripes but we pay you
    much! You hear the same analyst that praised Comair when it was the Regional star, now call it the worst
    performer.... Tenure means you go stale and now you cost too much. 6 weeks vacation, forget it... Pensions,
    really! .... Medical, if you pay for it!....
    How much can you take if you invested the BEST 25 or 30 YEARS of your life in this company, that is just
    " adapting to the industry changes" ? The same way the others did..... Remember BN/EA/PA/TW and many others....

    I have many friends in AA, and I hope the best for them. Looks like unless they can find some true caliber in the
    main office ranks ..... as predicted by others this is bound to get ugly!

    AA can only be saved by a visionary of the caliber of Crandall, Bethune, Wolf
     
    bjorn14
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:29 pm

    Quoting B6A322 (Reply 42):
    So would the bankruptcy court's (hypothetical) approval of these measures mean the end of the scope clause and allow AA to operate the 60-76 seat planes it wants?

    Yes, if they can prove to the Judge that this is in the best economical interests of the company. I personally think this is one of the easiest arguments to make. It's basically a work rule.
    "I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
     
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:02 pm

    Quoting sccutler (Reply 41):
    AA has been cutting non-union payroll for years, both head count and pay rates.

    AA is not doing a good job at getting the word out on this, which makes me a bit dubious on the degree of the cuts you are talking about.

    Quoting xdlx (Reply 44):
    AA can only be saved by a visionary of the caliber of Crandall, Bethune, Wolf

    One who can change the culture of us vs them to one of shared sacrifice and a common goal.
    Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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    highflier92660
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:14 pm

    Quoting xdlx (Reply 44):
    AA can only be saved by a visionary of the caliber of Crandall, Bethune, Wolf

    Remember that Steve Wolf enriched himself at the expense of a few airlines in his 70+ years.


    American Airlines is getting a ton of A319s in the coming years. Is the plan to fly these 124 passenger aircraft as the new regional jet with mainline pilots flying them at American Eagle pay scales?
     
    hiflyeras
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:36 pm

    Quoting xdlx (Reply 44):
    Quoting sccutler (Reply 41):

    Great post! It's always the employee's fault....people devote their lives to a company only to get the shaft. It's happened in every major industry. Your pay doesn't keep up with inflation, you are paying more and more for health insurance, you lose your pension, you work longer hours in the name of "productivity", etc, Those that came before you fought hard for the working conditions you're trying to preserve....you honor them by fighting to preserve a good middle-class job.

    Good luck to my airline family at AA....I've read the proposed APFA contract changes and they are truely draconian. I don't believe AA bargained in good faith and the proof is in the pudding. Not a single agreement out of nine work groups. The judge will be hard-pressed not to send them all back to the table with strict orders to find common ground.
     
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    RE: AA To End CBA's With 9 Unions...

    Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:45 pm

    Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 48):
    Those that came before you fought hard for the working conditions you're trying to preserve....you honor them by fighting to preserve a good middle-class job.

    I honor the fight, but those before you worked in a different era, and it just might not be possible to preserve the kind of job they had.

    Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 48):
    Good luck to my airline family at AA....I've read the proposed APFA contract changes and they are truely draconian. I don't believe AA bargained in good faith and the proof is in the pudding. Not a single agreement out of nine work groups. The judge will be hard-pressed not to send them all back to the table with strict orders to find common ground.

    Or the judge could find that truly draconian measures are what is needed for AA to get out of the hole it's dug for itself.
    Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
    Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
    Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
    Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!