EGSUcrew
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Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:24 pm

A quick search of the photo database shows that there really are very few 757s operating in Australia? As the topic suggests, I was just wondering why?

Looking at the length of the routes (SYD/MEL - PER for example) they seem to be about right for the 757 so I'm assuming it's something to do with load factors?

Or maybe the 757 never really 'took off' in Australia..  

Any ideas?

[Edited 2012-03-22 12:52:18]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No 757s In Australia?

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:33 pm

The 757 was never a big seller in the Asia/Pacific region. For Australia I would say it was too big at the time. For the rest of Asia it was too small since most markets were (and some still are) highly-regulated when the 757 went into service. With frequency restrictions in many markets, carriers preferred to use larger widebodies.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Why No 757s In Australia?

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:33 pm

Too small for SYD-MEL and too big for most other routes at the time would be my guess. The 757 was never really that popular in markets outside of the USA/Europe. In the whole of Asia/Australia/Africa/Latin America it sold in relatively small numbers to relatively few airlines.
 
EGSUcrew
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RE: Why No 757s In Australia?

Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
The 757 was never really that popular in markets outside of the USA/Europe. In the whole of Asia/Australia/Africa/Latin America it sold in relatively small numbers to relatively few airlines.Moderation in all things ... including moderation  

Yeah they were my thoughts, too. I suppose now it would fit in but it's obviously a little too late.

I suppose despite the distances being pretty similar, the US has far more cities to link whereas Australia didn't/doesn't?
 
rogercamel
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:40 am

In Asia timing is also a reason - the 757 ended production in 2004, which is (I understand) before much of the recent expansion really took off.

Also - from my experience the routes around Asia are either very heavy (e.g SQ runs 8x 777 to/from CGK - a flight of 105 minutes and 7 wide body flights to and from HKG and both routes fill up quick) or can be served by smaller alternatives once or twice a day.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 2):

Too small for SYD-MEL and too big for most other routes at the time would be my guess. The 757 was never really that popular in markets outside of the USA/Europe. In the whole of Asia/Australia/Africa/Latin America it sold in relatively small numbers to relatively few airlines.

The other thing is range needs.

The longest domestic nonstop in mainland Australia (something like PER-BNE/SYD) is a significant amount shorter (~20%) than the longest domestic nonstop in the continental US. So even before the 757, the 727 was capable of such routes.
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Gemuser
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:51 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
The longest domestic nonstop in mainland Australia (something like PER-BNE/SYD) is a significant amount shorter (~20%) than the longest domestic nonstop in the continental US. So even before the 757, the 727 was capable of such routes.

That's true. The B721 was a bit dogey westbound on SYD-PER, but the B722 was fine. The B721s often operated via ADL, but just as much for traffic reasons, in those days, as range issues.

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PacNWjet
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:11 am

Well, the 757 is not entirely non-existent among Asia/Pacific carriers:


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coronado
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:29 am

Any images of the Delta 757s that appear to still be operating intra-Asian routes?
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Viscount724
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting Coronado (Reply 8):
Any images of the Delta 757s that appear to still be operating intra-Asian routes?

Fairly recent photos of 4 of those aircraft.


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aerorobnz
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:16 am

I think more than any other reason, the 757 never took off out here because a) the 762 was more useful in terms of range for isolated Oceania - having the range to navigate both the regional stuff and longer routes AKL-HNL/PER/SIN/NGO/DPS etc etc.

The other contributing reason may have been that the smaller islands depend on airfreight for lots of their produce etc, so a bulkloaded 757 wastes more time loading and carries less (and non-containerised)cargo than a 767. This was a contributing factor for NZ gaining intl A320s over 737s as well
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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coronado
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:36 am

Thanks Viscount724
I notice that N549US has the winglets installed. Any of the other PMNW 757 in the images you posted undergoing or about to undergo this modification? Is this modification of value to these Asian stage length runs? I always thought this was more of a transatlantic sort of thing. J
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qf002
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:50 am

It was just the wrong plane for the market, like you say... I daresay that earlier deregulation in this region may have meant that LCC's would have been in the market earlier -- these are the carriers buying this category of planes today...

This size bracket is rapidly gaining popularity -- look at how many A321's and 789's that many Asian carriers are now operating. JQ in Australia has a number of A321's, which move around the network depending on demand.

Quoting EGSUcrew (Thread starter):
Looking at the length of the routes (SYD/MEL - PER for example) they seem to be about right for the 757 so I'm assuming it's something to do with load factors?

4 of QF's 6-7 daily flights from SYD-PER are operated by 300 seat A330's (and a 400 seat 747, though this flight will revert to A330's soon), and the other 2-3 are operated by 250 seat 767's (and 737's over the weekends) -- the 757 would really be too small for these routes.

MEL/BNE-PER is a similar situation, though there are far more 767's than A330's. There's also a big migration to widebodies only on these flights (though in reality they're only 4-5 hours long), with QF making a big deal of more widebodies and VA bringing A332's in for these routes...

I think a small fleet of A321/B739ER aircraft could serve QF very well though...
 
tayser
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
MEL/BNE-PER is a similar situation, though there are far more 767's than A330's

it's 50/50 763/332 split with widebodies on MEL-PER-MEL for QF

8 daily flights (next Monday):

2 x 738
3x 332
3x 763

VA are 5x daily 737s, up to 2 (i think?) will switch to 330s - fairly decent capacity increase

[Edited 2012-03-22 21:09:33]
 
roseflyer
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:18 am

Early on airlines chose the 767 or 757. There weren't that many airlines that operated both. Air New Zealand, Qantas and Ansett Australia all chose the 767, which was logical for many of their routes. The additional range of the 767 proved useful as the airplane could operate the routes to Pacific and Asia unlike the 757.
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mdavies06
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:24 am

Asia Pac carriers in the 80s and 90s were either very big (JL, NH) carriers or hub carriers (GA,CX,MH,SQ etc) with little competitions in their home markets. Under this scenarios many routes tend to be operated by widebody jets as they were able to operate less frequencies than was needed by the competition landscape.

Another reason was that a lot of carriers were using the long haul jets to operate regional routes. This is because most of the main long haul markets (namely US and European routes) takes a little over a day to complete a rotation, and the departure banks were (and still are) very concentrated to one part of the day. For example, nearly all of the European flights to Europe from SE Asia were midnight departure and arrival back to base in the morning one day later. This created a need to find routes to use these metals regionally which can be turned around in a few hours. This is not a problem for European carriers as the jet usage is more spreadout globally but for Asia pac carriers this has always been a problem.


There weren't a lot of long thin routes which covers the 5-10 hours flight range of market which the 757 do well in. Most of the routes of that range tend to be covered by widebody jets. Most of these markets in this range were trunk routes (NRT-HNL, SIN-MEL as an example). There wasn't a major market (such as US West to East coast traffic, TATL) for Asiapac which existed with a lot of volume and a lot of city pairs to connect.

The only market which would have served well with the 757s were China where the size of the market were not particularly big and there were a lot of primary and secondary routes needing jets the size of 757. As noted above CZ and CA had 757. They are being replaced by 737, 320 and 330 now. Although there were also secondary routes in Japan, JL (and JAS) already had the DC10, A300 and MD11, whilst NH had the 767. Other carriers (CI, SQ, TG) had the A300 or A310.

After the 1980s, most carriers opted for 330 and 772 or a step down to 737NG/320.

[Edited 2012-03-22 21:35:20]
 
PITrules
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 15):
Other carriers (CI, SQ, TG) had the A300 or A310.

SQ did operate the 757; looked great in their livery.
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aquariusHKG
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:52 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 16):
Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 15):
Other carriers (CI, SQ, TG) had the A300 or A310.

SQ did operate the 757; looked great in their livery.

Actually SQ dumped their 757 in favor of the A310, that might give some insight

From what I read SQ claim that the A310 can load/unload faster being twin isle
 
QF175
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:26 am

Air Niugini currently operates a 757-200 (TF-FIC) on its Port Moresby - Brisbane flights on Fridays.


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EGSUcrew
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:58 pm

Thanks for all the info, I actually didn't realise all of the smaller airlines that operate 757s.
 
StickShaker
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 16):
SQ did operate the 757; looked great in their livery.

SQ had a sub-fleet of 4 757's, I remember doing SIN - CGK on one during the 80's. As aquariusHKG says, they were sold in favour of the 310.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
I think a small fleet of A321/B739ER aircraft could serve QF very well though...

I've always been baffled as to why JQ got the 321 but QF never ordered the 739ER - must be quite a few routes out there that could use them.


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747400sp
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:22 pm

The last 757, was delivered to a China based carrer.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:31 pm

I seem to remember that several B-757s were used or preferred to many of the high/hot airports of Tibet, Mongolia, India, etc. They had great performance for high/hot and had a decent load.
 
777ER
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:34 pm

The RNZAF operate 2x B752s and are used several times per week on Auckland (Air Force Base) - Ohakea - WLG - CHC. The RNZAF B752s are a frequent visiter to Australia and the Pacific

Royal Tongan Airlines use to operate a B752 before going bust. Was a nice sight seeing it at AKL instead of the usual B747s, B767s and B737s at the international terminal.

Freedom Air (SJ, NZs LCC at the time) also operated a B752 on the HLZ - Australia (SYD?) when SJ first started ops in competition to Kiwi Air on the same routes out of HLZ before moving to ex NZ B732s later B733s and finally A320s before NZ merged SJ into NZ ops.

Kiwi Air out of HLZ. IIRC Kiwi also got some A320s and did a national tour around New Zealand before going bust.
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CZ346
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting EGSUcrew (Reply 19):

We operate a couple.. from here to like - Urumqi...

The 757 blew up because of NAT routes connecting cities because westerners can't take a connection (I'm one of them). The Asians use big planes for EVERYTHING, and there aren't as many cities that have smaller amounts of traffic that desperately need to be connected. There are some, but no where near as many.
 
aviasian
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:54 pm

Some of the airlines that have operated B757s in the Asia Pacific region (and some still operate them) include:

Air China (current operator)
China Xinjiang Airlines
China Southwest Airlines
China Southern Airlines (current operator)
Xiamen Airlines
Shanghai Airlines (current operator of both passenger and freighter versions)
SF Express (current operator)
Far Eastern Air Transport (FAT)
EVA Air
Air Macau (leased from FAT)
Singapore Airlines
Royal Brunei Airlines
Myanmar Airways International (leased from Royal Brunei)
Royal Nepal Airlines (now operating as Nepal Airlines and still operating B757s)
Angel Airlines (leased from China Southwest Airlines)
Tonle Sap Airlines (current operator - leased from AirBaltic)
Cebu Pacific Air
Air Astana (if you consider Central Asia to be part of Asia)
Turkmenistan Airlines (again if Central Asia is considered a part of Asia)

I am certain there are other operators that escaped my memory for now ... the main reason Singapore Airlines disposed of its B757 fleet to American Trans Air was the fact that it does not have containerised cargo carrying capability.

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PHX787
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting Coronado (Reply 8):
Any images of the Delta 757s that appear to still be operating intra-Asian routes?

I was always curious as to how the DL 757s got to NRT for those intra-Asia routs. Surely, they don't have the legs to do trans-pac, or do they?
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timf
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):
I was always curious as to how the DL 757s got to NRT for those intra-Asia routs. Surely, they don't have the legs to do trans-pac, or do they?

They usually fly a repositioning flight NRT-ANC then a revenue flight from ANC, or vice-versa. On a couple occasions they have gone through HNL instead.
 
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SRQKEF
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting aviasian (Reply 25):

Air Niugini (lsd from Icelandair/Loftleidir) is one airline I know of.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
LHRXXXLHR
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 16):
SQ did operate the 757; looked great in their livery.

I have never been a huge fan of the SQ livery but this is pretty sharp:


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qf002
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:08 am

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 20):
I've always been baffled as to why JQ got the 321 but QF never ordered the 739ER - must be quite a few routes out there that could use them.

A321 NEO's might be a possibility, or even the 739ER MAX... The gap is just going to get bigger moving to a 738/A332 domestic fleet over the next few years, and there are a few 767 routes where the A332 is just too big.
 
sweair
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:21 am

Where does 757 outrun the 321/739 on payload range? It seems like 757 constantly has about 11 more seats than 321? 189 vs 200 typical? I have been on many 738s with 189 seats and they feel cramped!

Maybe a tube the width of the MC21 and the length of 752 along with GTF about 3800lbf thrust would be something to take over from 767sa and old 757s? Al-Li skin, section 41 from 787 and its systems.

How much could a 752 sized plane be trimmed in weight with current technology? In its day it had good engines but compared to what is in the market now many would call them gazz gusslers.

A typical seating of 220 and 4200nm range would be somewhere above and below the future WB and NB total market. A 7 abreast twin aisle about the comfort of the current 737 or a very comfortable 2-2-2 for premium seats. Only problem with this aircraft, it would need to be rigid for many cycles.
 
Akiestar
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:35 am

Quoting aviasian (Reply 25):
Cebu Pacific Air

5J leased two 757s for use on international routes when they were still a full-service carrier. And if I may say, they were very beautiful 757s! 
 
himmat01
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:05 pm

Indian Airlines had ordered the B757 in 1985 but was dropped in favor of the A320.
An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:39 pm



Blue Dart Aviation....Owned by DHL Air does operate B752SF & B752PCF.
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MHG
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:55 am

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 32):
5J leased two 757s for use on international routes when they were still a full-service carrier. And if I may say, they were very beautiful 757s!

Well, I flew on RP-C 2715 in 2003 (MNL-HKG) and although I was hoping to get a DC-9 at the time I enjoyed the flight (going to meet my fiancee soon may have contributed ...).
Like you I really liked the paint scheme 5J had at the time although "2714" had the nicest one ...

Btw.: Cebu Pacific had three 757´s (RP-C2714 / 5 / 6)

[Edited 2012-03-25 03:53:11]
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NZ107
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:29 am

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 20):
I've always been baffled as to why JQ got the 321 but QF never ordered the 739ER - must be quite a few routes out there that could use them.

JQ operated a few out of OOL - a destination where QF has chosen to leave for JQ for the meantime..
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nzrich
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RE: Why No 757s In Asia/Pacific?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:51 pm

Kiwi Air based in NZ also operated the 757 at one stage
Air NZ leased a britannia airways one for a little bit
Royal Tongan had one also
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