redrooster3
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Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:04 pm

Seems to be more trouble for the A380. More "serious" hairline cracks.

Qantas finds type two cracks in VH-OQA, and OQB after inspections in February and March, both have seem to been repaired. Source

Quote:


Qantas Airways has discovered "type two" cracks on two of its Airbus A380 aircraft and is now in talks with the airframer the cost implications of repairs.

The carrier found "fewer than 10" cracks on the wing-rib feet on the affected aircraft, a spokesman said.

The Australian carrier grounded another A380 - VH-OQF - last month after 36 cracks were found on the wing-rib feet.
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Polot
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:11 pm

What are "type two" cracks, and how many other types are there (and what are they)?
 
redrooster3
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):
What are "type two" cracks, and how many other types are there (and what are they)?

The type two defects are regarded as more serious than "type one" cracks. Those hairline cracks - none longer than about 2 centimetres - were found in the wing rib feet, which attach the skins of the wings to brackets.
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Clydenairways
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:16 pm

I think this is the same issue that was in the media last month.

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...cks-boeing-confirms-787-shims-0208
 
United727
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:57 pm

A very serious question comes to mind.....Could the A-380 turn into another DC-10 debacle? Although most issues are being downplayed (and repaired as seen recently), in reality, could these issues become so radically severe that it could take down an A380? I certainly hope not, but the question comes to mind. Additionally, I would imagine a catastrophe with A380 could also take down Airbus as a whole. Any thoughts????
 
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
Although most issues are being downplayed (and repaired as seen recently), in reality, could these issues become so radically severe that it could take down an A380?

If left unchecked, perhaps. But checks are in place so no, the chances they could cause a hull loss are statistically insignificant. Even if the QF bird had not suffered that engine failure, eventually that section would have been examined during a mandated inspection period and the crack found. And I do not believe the propagation was so rapid that they would have become a flight safety issue before said inspection period.

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
Additionally, I would imagine a catastrophe with A380 could also take down Airbus as a whole.

The greatest commercial jetliner aviation disasters in history have involved 747s and Boeing's still around to deliver them.

The loss of an A380, even if through some unknown design failure, will not kill the program, much less Airbus.

[Edited 2012-03-23 17:23:23]
 
Rbgso
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:23 am

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
A very serious question comes to mind.....Could the A-380 turn into another DC-10 debacle? Although most issues are being downplayed (and repaired as seen recently), in reality, could these issues become so radically severe that it could take down an A380? I certainly hope not, but the question comes to mind. Additionally, I would imagine a catastrophe with A380 could also take down Airbus as a whole. Any thoughts????

I think it is very premature to come to that conclusion. While somewhat troubling, I'm of the opinion that these are still early "teething" issues, not long term problems. I'm certain they will be repaired and the root cause corrected on future builds.
 
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:28 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
The greatest commercial jetliner aviation disasters in history have involved 747s and Boeing's still around to deliver them.

Due to a failure in the design / construction of the 747?
 
F9Animal
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:36 am

I love the 380, but it seems like this beast is causing lots of problems. Qantas has to be unhappy with these issues. Will QF continue operating this type if these problems keep occuring?+
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nomadd22
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
The greatest commercial jetliner aviation disasters in history have involved 747s and Boeing's still around to deliver them.

You mean the two that ran into each other, the one the Soviets shot down or the one that was improperly repaired?
Not exactly manufacturing/design issues.

[Edited 2012-03-23 17:43:32]
Anon
 
United727
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:51 am

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 9):
Not exactly manufacturing/design issues.
Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
Due to a failure in the design / construction of the 747?

Stitch, Both Nomad and 2NA are right, the 74 issues had nothing to do with design!
 
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting United727 (Reply 10):
Stitch, Both Nomad and 2NA are right, the 74 issues had nothing to do with design!

I'm sure he is well aware of that. However, that isn't the big issue that would even down a manufacturer altogether.

It's about bad press, bad PR etc. Regardless of why or how, any incident involving any aircraft can potentially put a bad light on the manufacturer even if there was nothing they could do to prevent it.
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CM
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:46 am

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
could these issues become so radically severe that it could take down an A380?

I think this outcome - even from total failure of multiple rib feet - would be highly unlikely. The design case which sizes these feet is likely an overpressure condition for the wing; something which would occur during fueling. Failure of the foot may not be noticed at the time of a fueling incident, but normal flight loads are unlikely to induce loads which could not find redundant load paths through intact rib feet or elsewhere in the structure.

As for discussion of this being a "design issue": I haven't seen it stated definitively, but this seems almost certainly to be a manufacturing issue. Airbus has historically used fewer shims in production than Boeing. Generally, this is viewed as a positive thing for Airbus frames, but it comes at a price - To achieve this, Airbus permits greater "pull-up" with the fasteners to close a gap than Boeing will. This seems to be an instance where the amount of fastener pull-up between the wing skin and ribs was too great. The rib feet were pre-stressed from pull-up in production, dramatically shortening the life of the parts.
 
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:46 am

Remember TWA 800? That accident was attributed to the fuel pump in an empty center fuel tank igniting fuel vapor...that was considered a design flaw and Boeing took responsibility for that one...even though it had never happened before or since.
United 747 departing Honolulu for Sydney Australia suffered the loss of the front lower deck cargo door causing 9 (I believe) deaths as passengers in the first class cabin above the door were sucked from the hole left by the torn off door. It was found that design flaws in the cargo door locking mechanism (cams) and a subsequent sort circuit that caused the locking cams to unlock, eventually resulting in the failure of the door.

Japan Airlines 123- the single worst single aircraft disaster of all time, 520 dead. Crash caused by the failure of the rear pressure bulkhead and subsequent loss of the vertical stab, loss of all hydrolic fluid and aircraft control. Aircraft plowed into mountains killing all on board. Although the cause of the pressure bulkhead failure was the result of faulty repairs after a tail strike on take off of the same plane some years before, it was Boeing who preformed the repairs incorrectly and thus can be considered a mechanical failure that was indeed Boeing's fault.

LH 540- Niarobi, Kenya. Crew failed to deploy leading edge slats and open bleed air intake on the engines prior to take-off. Although accident was crew caused, this led Boeing (after 2 other similar accidents) to add alarms/ warning systems for failure to deploy leading edge and or trailing edge flaps.

So there have been a few accidents involving the 747 and design flaws, but arguably, not too many. The 747 did not suffer the same kind of bad press that the DC-10 did after high profile accidents. Its proof that a type can suffer accidents that dont doom the type completely. I think we all know there have been accidents due to design flaws of just about every kind of airliner flying, both fatal and non fatal.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:50 am

Quoting United727 (Reply 10):
Stitch, Both Nomad and 2NA are right, the 74 issues had nothing to do with design!

I am aware of that. But your comment was that a "catastrophe" might result in Airbus ceasing to be a manufacturer of commercial airliners and all those incidents with 747s certainly meet the dictionary definition of a "catastrophe", yet together they did not mean the end of the 747 or of Boeing as a commercial aviation manufacturer.

If you meant a "catastrophe caused by a design defect", fine. But even then, I don't believe a design failure that directly led to the hull loss of an A380 airframe with significant or total loss of life aboard would mean the cancellation of the A380 program nor would it mean Airbus withdraws as a commercial aviation manufacturer.
 
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jetmech
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):
What are "type two" cracks, and how many other types are there (and what are they)?

I'm not exactly sure, but "type two" may be a term referring to certain aspects of fracture and fatigue. A "mode 2" crack is one that propagates by in plane shear stresses. "Stage 2" is also used to describe one of the stages in the growth of a fatigue crack. IIRC, it is the steady growth stage between crack initation (nucleation) and ultimate failure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fracture_mechanics

The article mentions the discovery of "type 2" cracks, which are described as being of more concern than the previously discovered "type 1" crack. This may suggest that the most recent "type 2" cracks are fatigue cracks that are in the steady growth stage (stage 2), which would be of more concern than "type 1" cracks that are still in the nucleation stage (stage 1).

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2012-03-23 19:25:42]
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PHX787
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
Could the A-380 turn into another DC-10 debacle?

DC-10 was a flop because they didn't act on the issues.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
The greatest commercial jetliner aviation disasters in history have involved 747s and Boeing's still around to deliver them.

The loss of an A380, even if through some unknown design failure, will not kill the program, much less Airbus.
Quoting N62NA (Reply 7):
Due to a failure in the design / construction of the 747?

Boeing, however, modified their design many times, which produced the varying -200 -300 -400 -8 models. All about learning from errors.....sounds deadly, but could be fixed with extensive testing....which is expensive...
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bridge
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:56 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Japan Airlines 123- the single worst single aircraft disaster of all time, 520 dead. Crash caused by the failure of the rear pressure bulkhead and subsequent loss of the vertical stab, loss of all hydrolic fluid and aircraft control. Aircraft plowed into mountains killing all on board. Although the cause of the pressure bulkhead failure was the result of faulty repairs after a tail strike on take off of the same plane some years before, it was Boeing who preformed the repairs incorrectly and thus can be considered a mechanical failure that was indeed Boeing's fault.

Boeing's approved repair procedure, however, indeed called for a double row of rivets. The techs erroneously used only a single row. The crash of JAL 123 can't be attributed to a design flaw.
 
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zeke
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting redrooster3 (Thread starter):
Seems to be more trouble for the A380. More "serious" hairline cracks.

This is actually old news, been discussed before on here.

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):
What are "type two" cracks, and how many other types are there (and what are they)?

Two types, 1 and 2

This is the rib with the rib feet



Type 1 cracks are from the fastener hole



Type 2 crack is a horizontal crack



There is over 2000 rib feet on an A380, finding a couple of cracks does not compromise safety.
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ltbewr
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:35 am

In this day of the Internet and worldwide cable/satellite TV, cellphones and so on, a problem that the public would have had years to realize now known in maybe days or less, especially when it involves problems with a 'new' aircraft. The A380 is a flagship aircraft, the biggest pax aircraft ever, if something goes full wrong in flight it could kill more than any other aircraft disaster, destroy an airline's rep to the point of collapse and related damage.

I suspect some other problems related to these crack problems could include: higher insurance rates for the owners and operators of A380's. Then there is the hassles and as others mentioned the PR issues; the lost of prestige, lost seats on critical routes, especially at peak seasons with related loss of revenues.

This appears to be a very serious problem that needs full investigation. Is it just the size of the A-380 ? In the goal to save weight and with the use of computers to do engineering calculations, have the margins been made too thin? Is it a bad design, a poor choice of materials, improper assembly decisions? Could the huge use of composite materials creating some unexpected issues in use and didn't show up in tests?

Hopefully reasonable answers can be found before a potentially more serious situation occurs as well as ones that don't cause too much of financial problems for all parties.
 
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:48 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 19):
This appears to be a very serious problem that needs full investigation.

Which is why authorities who have direct knowledge of the situation are investigating.  
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 19):
Is it a bad design, a poor choice of materials, improper assembly decisions?

That's why they are investigating.

Honestly people. All airplanes have cracks; designs, maintenance, materials, and assembly methods are continuously improved because of ongoing inspections and maintenance feedback.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:58 am

Over 50 years ago, two Lockheed Electras had the wings come off in cruise flight due to design flaws, but Lockheed survived huge adverse publicity before finding the flaw and fixing it.
 
doug_or
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:14 am

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 21):
Over 50 years ago, two Lockheed Electras had the wings come off in cruise flight due to design flaws, but Lockheed survived huge adverse publicity before finding the flaw and fixing it.

How many Electras did they sell after that, though?
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Ruscoe
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:38 am

The technicalities aside, this situation is percieved as worse than probably is because:
1. The 380 is a prominent aircraft
2. The affected craft are very low hours amd cycles for cracks to appear
3. The cracks were found by accident
4. Airbus initially said they were a manufacturing problem and could wait four years for correction, then
5. A 2nd type of crack was discovered, which is fatigue related, and found in low time aircraft.

The whole thing has been badly handled from the start.

The response which to me seems obvious is to say from the start;

OK we have found a problem. It is not an immediate safety problem.
We will check all aircraft and inspect regularly to ensure the safe operation of the aircraft.

I hope Airbus are working hard to ensure the fatigue aircraft is correctly validating the flying aircraft.

A question for those who keep excusing on the basis that all aircraft have cracks. I accept this, but how many have appeared, so early in the life of a craft and are fatigue related?

Ruscoe
 
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zeke
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:09 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):
OK we have found a problem. It is not an immediate safety problem.
We will check all aircraft and inspect regularly to ensure the safe operation of the aircraft.

That is exactly what the AD says, problem is most people are so aviation illiterate they do not understand what it says. Even looking at the OP of this thread, the cracks that have been found are already repaired, and somehow this is serious problem for the A380.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):
A question for those who keep excusing on the basis that all aircraft have cracks. I accept this, but how many have appeared, so early in the life of a craft and are fatigue related?

Be every aircraft in existence.
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soon7x7
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:23 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):

Are the ribs machined from Aluminum Lithium?...from what I am to understand the stuff develops cracks during the manufacturing process but allegedly are not supposed to propagate. Boeing refused this material during development of the 777 program. I am aware of its wide spread use with A/bus products. Not sure if Boeing has yet adopted the material in the 787.
 
CM
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:18 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 25):
Boeing refused this material during development of the 777 program.

Yes, Boeing did reject Aluminum-Lithium during 777 development, but that was a first generation alloy with the issues you noted, as well as poor performance for stress crack and intergranular corrosion. The Aluminum-Lithium alloys used on the A380 are 2nd generation, with far better properties.

The A350 uses 3rd generation Al-Li alloys, which have lower density and better fatigue and corrosion properties than even traditional aluminum alloys
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:04 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):
This is actually old news, been discussed before on here.

yep, seems more related to a QF push for compensation and the need to distract attention from their failed Asian strategy, there is no new news here.
BV
 
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flylku
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:54 pm

While currently this is a PR issue for Airbus (who in the general public wants to fly in an airplane with cracks in the wings?) I suspect in the longer term this could turn into a very large business issue for them. Airlines will make warranty claims and demand concessions on new purchases if the recurring inspection and maintenance burden adds to much to the total cost of ownership. But:

All aircraft have these issues. My question is: is this issue getting more press because or where the cracks are or that it is the A380 and carries so many people at once or is this an issue that is truly severe and above the norm for its peer group.
...are we there yet?
 
WROORD
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:12 pm

Do these issues relate to the fact that QF along with SN were the first recipients of A380. You somehow do not hear about AF, KE or LH having issues with their A380s.
 
rcair1
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 28):
(who in the general public wants to fly in an airplane with cracks in the wings?)

   The fact that they are (in other aircraft) is not relevant to the perception.

Quoting flylku (Reply 28):
My question is: is this issue getting more press because or where the cracks are or that it is the A380

I believe it is a combination of factors.
The 380 is
- novel - largest passenger aircraft.
- unmistakable - you know when you are on one. Even I sometimes have to take a double take to determine what 'normal' a/c I'm on.
- widely publicized - both positive and negative. EK giving compensation for non-A380 flights?
- Involved in a spectacular incident. Yes, it was the engine, and the a/c performed admirably, but it was spectacular
- Having incidents that are not one off's, but effect the whole fleet. (True, the 747 door issue was a fleet issue, but it happened to 1, so it is perceived as a single acrft.)
- cracks in the wing "sound" serious, even if they are not. People are scared of the thought of wings falling off. Planes with engines quitting land all the time. Plans with wings that fall off do not. No- I'm not saying the A380 wing is about to fall off, we are talking 'perceptions' of the 'perceived' danger.
rcair1
 
tonyban
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 13):
Aircraft plowed into mountains killing all on board

I do believe there were one or two survivors.
 
tonyban
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting tonyban (Reply 31):

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 13):
Aircraft plowed into mountains killing all on board

I do believe there were one or two survivors.

..correction...4 survived.
 
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 13):
United 747 departing Honolulu for Sydney Australia

Wasn't that UA incident on a HNL-AKL flight?
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting WROORD (Reply 29):
Do these issues relate to the fact that QF along with SN were the first recipients of A380. You somehow do not hear about AF, KE or LH having issues with their A380s.

EK, AF and LH are doing inspections, but I do not recall if either or both types of cracks have been found. I believe the latest AD covers the entire A380 fleet - in service and in production. As the Type Two cracks are said to be fatigue-relared, I could see the KE and CZ airframes not having them, but they might have Type One cracks.
 
nycdave
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
Additionally, I would imagine a catastrophe with A380 could also take down Airbus as a whole. Any thoughts????

I sincerely doubt that, even if this turned into a serious, widespread issue requiring massive overhauls, that it would bring down the A380 program, much less AB as a whole. There's simply too much invested in the program to call it quits even if that sort of change/repair/overhaul were required. Beyond that, AB makes some of the most popular a/c in the sky today, including the A320 and A330 -- which are really far more their bread and butter than the high-margin, smaller sale A380. On top of THAT, well, AB is kind of "too big to fail", backed by governments that have far fewer qualms about bailing out key industries than even over here in the states.

Quoting flylku (Reply 28):
All aircraft have these issues. My question is: is this issue getting more press because or where the cracks are or that it is the A380 and carries so many people at once or is this an issue that is truly severe and above the norm for its peer group.

High profile, and, as they say "if it bleeds, it leads". Just look at that atrocious article on the 737 in Newsweek... there's nothing that gets more ad views on a page than something that tells readers "READ THIS OR THE NEXT TIME YOU GET ON A PLANE YOU WILL DIE!!!" I'm neither a fan of the A380 or keen on AB as a whole, but I agree with others -- this is bad publicity with little basis for deeper concern.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 27):
yep, seems more related to a QF push for compensation and the need to distract attention from their failed Asian strategy, there is no new news here.

Now that's some crazy conspiracy theorizing. The last thing an airline in financial trouble wants to do is deliberately spread publicity to the flying public that their aircraft may have wings that will fall off.
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):

That's informative. But I guess those ribs are under the skin? How do they find them (do they take the skin off the wings???) and how do they repair them??
 
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:27 pm

Quoting jet-lagged (Reply 36):
But I guess those ribs are under the skin? How do they find them (do they take the skin off the wings???) and how do they repair them??

They can be inspected via access panels in the wings. The fix appears to be cutting out the affected wing bracket area and putting in a new piece. For new-builds, the manufacturing process and materials will be changed so as to prevent the cracks from forming.
 
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zeke
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 25):
Are the ribs machined from Aluminum Lithium?


The A380 has both composite and Al ribs, the composite ribs have Al caps made from 7449-T7651, and the Al ribs are machined from 7449-T7651 ingots.

The first digit in 7449-T7651 specifies the major alloying element. The 7XXX series aluminum alloys have Zinc as the major alloying element, 7449-T7651 is known as a Al-Zn (zinc) alloy, with over 8% Zn.

Al alloy series with their major alloying element.

1xxx Super- or commercial-purity aluminum
2xxx Aluminum-Copper-Magnesium Al-Cu(-Mg)
3xxx Aluminum-Manganese-Magnesium Al-Mn(-Mg)
4xxx Aluminum-Silicon Al-Si
5xxx Aluminum-Magnesium Al-Mg
6xxx Aluminum-Magnesium-Silicon Al-Mg-Si
7xxx Aluminum-Zinc-Magnesium-Copper Al-Zn-Mg(-Cu)
8xxx Aluminum-Lithium- Al-Li-
9xxx Unused Series

Most Al-Li alloys available to day are either 2XXX or 8XXX series alloys (e.g. 2090, 2091, 8090). Boeing has for years used 7XXX series alloys in their aircraft, they are used extensively by all manufacturers. On the 777 Boeing used 7XXX series alloys on the upper and lower wing skins, fuselage stringers, and various forgings. Airbus has previously used 7449 on the A330/A340 wing skins.
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zeke
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting jet-lagged (Reply 36):
How do they find them (do they take the skin off the wings???) and how do they repair them??

They drain the fuel from the wing, and mechanics are able work inside the wing. Standard non-destructive testing techniques are used inspect the feet. The cracked feet are repaired by basically replacing cracked rib feet made from the 7449 alloy with new rib feet made from 7010 alloy.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
They can be inspected via access panels in the wings

You make it sound very simple!
Lets say these are inside the fuel tanks. You have to empty the fuel tanks, and drain them, and remove panels and blow air through the tanks to make them safe.
This takes about 24 hrs.
Then someone goes in the tank and crawls around and looks.
I have spent many happy hours in fuel tanks. Its not so bad when they are well ventilated and dry, and the aircraft is big so there is room to stand, (or at least sit). But no fun at all on a small aircraft, especially B737 when it can get very claustrophobic.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 22):
How many Electras did they sell after that, though?

Contrary to common wisdom, Electra orders dried up almost a year prior to the first whirl-mode crash in September 1959.
The anticipated arrival of short to medium haul jets is what killed the L-188.
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 26):

As I have not kept my finger on the pulse of Al-Li, I would have hoped they would have improved the properties by now as you have indicated.

Quoting zeke (Reply 38):
Most Al-Li alloys available to day are either 2XXX or 8XXX series alloys (e.g. 2090, 2091, 8090). Boeing has for years used 7XXX series alloys in their aircraft, they are used extensively by all manufacturers. On the 777 Boeing used 7XXX series alloys on the upper and lower wing skins, fuselage stringers, and various forgings. Airbus has previously used 7449 on the A330/A340 wing skins.

Interesting material...I would like to work with it to see how it compares to conventional alloys. A/Bus uses it extensively. Thnx for the tech updates!
 
CHIFLYGUY
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:43 pm

I really doubt the A380 is an unsafe aircraft. However, today's environment is very different from even 20 years ago. Today, basically the public (and politicians) expect that accidents simply don't happen. A major aircraft crash due to a design or manufacturing problem would be a much bigger incident for either manufacturer today than it would have been in the past, so I think some comparisons don't apply.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):
What are "type two" cracks, and how many other types are there (and what are they)?

If they're talking fracture mechanics, which seems consistent with the pictures in Flightglobal, they're talking about the different crack modes:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...commons/e/e7/Fracture_modes_v2.svg

There are two other types (Mode I and III).

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
Could the A-380 turn into another DC-10 debacle? Although most issues are being downplayed (and repaired as seen recently), in reality, could these issues become so radically severe that it could take down an A380?

Not literally impossible but incredibly unlikely.

Quoting United727 (Reply 4):
Additionally, I would imagine a catastrophe with A380 could also take down Airbus as a whole. Any thoughts????

No chance...Airbus is far too large for that now.

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 13):
Remember TWA 800? That accident was attributed to the fuel pump in an empty center fuel tank igniting fuel vapor...that was considered a design flaw and Boeing took responsibility for that one...even though it had never happened before or since.

It was the FQIS system, not a fuel pump. The short was caused by bad maintenance, not bad design. Boeing did not take responsibility; the FAA forced all OEM's to make design changes after a new fault tree analysis of the fuel systems. And similar events had happened before and since.

Quoting zeke (Reply 24):
Even looking at the OP of this thread, the cracks that have been found are already repaired, and somehow this is serious problem for the A380.

Depending on the pervasiveness, it will be something of an operating cost problem (more inspections, more in-tank work, more downtime) but I don't see any real safety threat from the information that's come out so far.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 25):
Are the ribs machined from Aluminum Lithium?...from what I am to understand the stuff develops cracks during the manufacturing process but allegedly are not supposed to propagate. Boeing refused this material during development of the 777 program.

All alloys crack during the manufacturing process, it's just a matter of how much.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 40):
You make it sound very simple!
Lets say these are inside the fuel tanks. You have to empty the fuel tanks, and drain them, and remove panels and blow air through the tanks to make them safe.
This takes about 24 hrs.

If you're willing to use forced-air respirators, or you work in some of the parts of the world with considerably laxer safety standards, it can be a lot quicker than that. Still many hours though. The leak check afterwards is the real time-killer that you can't get away from.

Tom.

[Edited 2012-03-24 11:13:58]

[Edited 2012-03-24 11:14:20]

[Edited 2012-03-24 11:14:40]
 
kalvado
Posts: 482
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 13):
Remember TWA 800? That accident was attributed to the fuel pump in an empty center fuel tank igniting fuel vapor...that was considered a design flaw and Boeing took responsibility for that one...even though it had never happened before or since.

I heard about a B-52 exploding on take-off possibly attributed to the same problem. That came from the guy who was on board at the time of explosion. There is very little information about military accidents, though.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:38 am

I guess the big question is.... Is QF okay with these issues?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
CM
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:59 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 46):
Is QF okay with these issues?

Judging by how QF chose to handle the Flight 32 event with Rolls, I would expect they will get their pound of flesh out of Airbus for the cracked rib feet.

Airbus has estimated the cost to repair the flying fleet to be €105 million. There were 67 A380s in service when Airbus released that number, so assuming it is in the ballpark, that works out to ~ €1.6 million per airplane for cash costs, and it's an amount Airbus says they will pay. But that's just part of it.

The other cost is the opportunity cost incurred from having an A380 out of service for.... ?? 2 weeks? That number will dwarf the €1.6 million. I would estimate a daily out of service cost for the A380 to be around €200k. Multiply that times the downtime for repair (which will vary airplane to airplane, depending on findings), and you get some idea of what operators will be trying to recover from Airbus. If it's a 2 week repair, that could add up to another €2.8 million in lost revenue for each airplane affected.
 
PHX787
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RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:00 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 46):
I guess the big question is.... Is QF okay with these issues?
Quoting redrooster3 (Thread starter):
Qantas finds type two cracks in VH-OQA

Does anybody think the cracks in OQA could've been a result of the engine blowout a few years back? Something like that must have been a bunch of stress on gigantic wings like on the 380
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kiwiandrew

RE: Qantas Find "type-two" Cracks In A380's

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:11 am

Quoting WROORD (Reply 29):
Do these issues relate to the fact that QF along with SN were the first recipients of A380.

I suspect you mean SQ. I doubt very much whether SN will ever require the A380.

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