abrown532
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Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:56 pm

I have always wondered if an old freighter could be converted to carry passengers and their cars like a sea-ferry. Obviously the cost would be enormous most likely but it is a nice idea and alot faster than conventional sea ferries!
 
PHX787
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:59 pm

I could see this possibly happening in some Island nation but the $$$ is definitely not there.

Then again, I still question how here in Arizona I saw a license plate on a car from Hawaii.
As I wrote that, I was thinking it could be feasible in Hawaii, but don't ferries also do that, and for cheap, too?
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SuperCaravelle
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:09 pm

It is much cheaper to either take the boat, or take the plane and let the car take the boat. The weight and volume of the car is expensive in the air. That said, sometimes luxury cars do get transported on planes, but I bet it costs a lot of money.

I bet this idea won't be the end for car rentals at airports  
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:25 pm

There were those photos on here of a porche who hitched a ride on a CDG-SLC Delta flight recently. I think that's an expensive occassionand and if you have the time boat and then train or truck is much cheaper so time would need to be a critical factor. I think it's just too expensive and you would never find enough cars all heading the same place at the same time. If you had to wait a week or few days you could have shipped it by boat or truck and had it on its way
 
rutankrd
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:33 pm

Been done and died in the early 70s when the fast and short channel ferries and hovercraft were introduced .

With the Channel tunnel and remaining 75 minute crossings just forget it !


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The CARVAIR ! These were converted Dc4 . Created by a company owned by the infamous and recidivist Bankrupt Freddie Laker
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:41 pm

You effectively have this between locations where major luxury car manufacturers are based and various points around the world which buy a lot of them, but the aircraft used are generally regular cargo aircraft which carry the cars strapped onto pallets to be loaded on the main deck or in the hold. The An-124 can also be set up with two decks to carry more cars.


Dan  
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rutankrd
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):

You effectively have this between locations where major luxury car manufacturers are based and various points around the world which buy a lot of them, but the aircraft used are generally regular cargo aircraft which carry the cars strapped onto pallets to be loaded on the main deck or in the hold. The An-124 can also be set up with two decks to carry more cars.

In fact if you are talking airfreight - you can get many/most cars through the belly cargo doors of wide bodies.

At Heathrow its quite regular and its NOT just luxury . Quite a few cars are airfreighted by their owners across continents !
 
Viscount724
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 4):
The CARVAIR ! These were converted DC-4 . Created by a company owned by the infamous and recidivist Bankrupt Freddie Laker

Carvair - short for "Car via Air". 21 were converted.

A 2009 thread with some photos of both the Bristol Freighter and Carvair, both of which were used on the various cross-channel air ferry services that survived for a few in the 1960s and '70s..
RE: 1960s Car Ferry Flights From Lydd (by Viscount724 Jul 10 2009 in Civil Aviation)

Flight International article from 1967 when many of the longer routes were dropped. Includes an explanation of why those operations weren't economic.
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPD...s=0&scrollbar=0&page=1&view=FitH,0
 
EmperortimSJO
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

I've heard from a few Hawaiians that the military will ship your car for free. So every time I see a Hawaii plate I think they must be in the military, obviously not 100% true.
 
BMI727
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:13 am

Quoting EmperortimSJO (Reply 8):
I've heard from a few Hawaiians that the military will ship your car for free. So every time I see a Hawaii plate I think they must be in the military, obviously not 100% true.

The Navy will use their ships to transport sailors' cars when switching home ports and things like that. Not too long ago I saw a picture of an aircraft carrier's hangar deck being used as a parking lot to move people's cars.

Edit: Here's some
http://jalopnik.com/5875646/this-air...-worlds-most-expensive-parking-lot
http://jalopnik.com/5704898/this-par...rage-is-really-an-aircraft-carrier

[Edited 2012-03-23 17:15:49]
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
tsnamm
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:20 am

Use a 747 and restrict it to under 64 inches in height on the cars so they can fit in the regular pit on lower deck pallets...run it from the Northeast to Florida and call it "The AutoPlane" !! Investors anyone?? LOL!
 
EmperortimSJO
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):

Thank you, one would assume that is the cheapest way!!
I wonder who's BMW that is all alone in the second link!!

[Edited 2012-03-23 17:21:08]
 
1stfl94
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:23 am

Wouldn't be economical unless your charge an enormous fare. Most ferry companies make their money off freight, passenger cars are only a portion of their revenue. Also you wouldn't get that many vehicles onboard even an Antonov, at 70m long its still half the length of what would be considered a small ferry.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 6):
In fact if you are talking airfreight - you can get many/most cars through the belly cargo doors of wide bodies.

Indeed, it's quite a large market to some destinations.


Dan  
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PHX787
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:33 am

Quoting EmperortimSJO (Reply 8):
I've heard from a few Hawaiians that the military will ship your car for free. So every time I see a Hawaii plate I think they must be in the military, obviously not 100% true.

That's what I was assuming. When my neighbor went to a base in Saudi Arabia, they shipped his Chrysler with him. (He flies the C-5 so if I'm not mistaken, he may have shipped his own car in his own plane.)
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YVRLTN
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
There were those photos on here of a porche who hitched a ride

I work for a freight forwarder and we have a dedicated automotive team and we do this all time, particularly Porsche's. We sent the whole team to AUH from STR for example for the Grand Prix there. We also do concept cars, cars for auto shows and movies as well as for individuals.
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Cipango
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:59 am

There's a reason we only see pictures of Luxury cars being loaded into airplanes on A.net.

Far too expensive between the space occupied and the weight of the car.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
David L
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:19 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 4):
Been done and died in the early 70s
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
A 2009 thread with some photos of both the Bristol Freighter and Carvair, both of which were used on the various cross-channel air ferry services that survived for a few in the 1960s and '70s.

   My first ever flight was on a Bristol Freighter with our car on board (a green MG Magnette ZB, in case anyone cares) in about 1961. As I was less than two years old, I don't remember a great deal about it but I've been told my face was glued to the window for the whole trip. Thus began an enduring fascination with aviation.  
 
edina
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:40 am

Air Inter offered their "AirAutoMoto" service for cars & motorbikes on A300 operated French domestic flights.

Cars carried were limited in size to smaller models (e.g. peugeot 205), but this did not stop the service being fully booked during the summer months/holidays, the most popular routes being ORY to AJA, BIA, BIQ, CLY, PGF, MPL, TLN & NCE.

[Edited 2012-03-24 03:42:41]
Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
 
PanHAM
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:44 am

As was mentioned before, cars are shipped by air on a daily base. But most of them commercially for numerous reasons, be that for advertising or racing, many more. Soem are even flown from African countries to the manufacturer in Germany to get the oinspection done. Or expensive material delivered by airfreight instead of in an ocean container.

The Carvair days where people could drive to the airport, load the cars on a Bristol Freighter of a DC4 converted and drive off at the destination are gone. For them car rental is available world wide. Cars are DGR, petrol has to be drained, batteries dis-connected, air bags etc. . The documentation has to be filled out by people who do not know how to do it.

For personal use , for holidays it is easier and much cheaper to rent at the destination.
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BMI727
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Soem are even flown from African countries to the manufacturer in Germany to get the oinspection done.

A lot of prototypes and development cars get shipped between Europe and South Africa for testing, which is a convenient spot since it has the opposite seasons and minimal time change.
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vv701
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:53 pm

The F1 circus was in Melbourne last Sunday (18 March), is currently in Sepang for Sunday's (25 March) Malaysian Grand Prix. Later it will move from the Chinese Grand Prix in Shanghai (15 April) to Bahrain Grand Prtix (22 April). And it is worth noting that practice starts on the Friday leaving just 4 days between the race finish and the start of practice for races that are only a week apart like those above.

Two of the biggest hops are from the Italian Grand Prix at Monza on 9 September to the Singapore Grand Prix on 23 September andfrom the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix on 4 November to the American Grand Prix at Austin, TX on 18 November.

There are 12 teams each with two race-day cars and most with a back up car plus all the necessary back up facilities from spare nose cones to tyres and service equipment.

There is little published on this huge logistics challenge. However this article relates to the 2007 Bahrain Grand Prix. It talks of a total of 10 charter freight flights by both specialist cargo and more general commercial airlines:

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/race-supply-flights-for-f1-145608.html
 
PanHAM
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:30 pm

F1 team transfers are almost routine meanwhile. One of the worlds largest logistics firms handles that business and they know what they are doing. For a freight forwarder that is a challenge, but not the transport organisation itself is, the local arrangements, customs inbound and outboud, sub-contractor eventually that's where the flexiility and quick thinking are needed. Or, new places like Austin. But they send a team there weeks before and the company has a local office at least in Houston.

Anyway, that wa snot the question, the question was, would it be viable to re-start something like BAF. The answer is a clear no. ,
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richm
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:18 pm

For the purpose of mass transportation, it wouldn't be viable.

Here's a photo of a 4x4 being loaded into a 757. You can clearly tell that you wouldn't get many of those in a 757, especially not with passengers as well! Sure, there would be more room in a 747 but even then, you wouldn't be able carry enough vehicles in order to make it viable for mass transportation.


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Photo © Patrick Andrie



So unless you have a lot of money and a need to transport vehicle(s) overseas very quickly, it wouldn't be viable.

Rich
 
fn1001
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:39 pm

About 3 weeks ago I saw in the morning at T2 in FRA an EK or EY aircraft with an Audi Q5 in the belly. I wondered, since the Q5 is available nearly everywhere, what would be the reason to buy it in Germany and ship it to the Gulf region. How much would that shipping cost?
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eaa3
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 24):
About 3 weeks ago I saw in the morning at T2 in FRA an EK or EY aircraft with an Audi Q5 in the belly. I wondered, since the Q5 is available nearly everywhere, what would be the reason to buy it in Germany and ship it to the Gulf region. How much would that shipping cost?

Probably because the people shipping it didn't care at all about shipping cost.

Having an airline also carry your car is viable in some senses. It's just an incredible small market and would be the most upscale airline ever. It's probably cheaper to just buy a new car at your destination and then sell it when you leave.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:01 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 4):

The CARVAIR ! These were converted Dc4 . Created by a company owned by the infamous and recidivist Bankrupt Freddie Laker

I remember seeing this funny looking humper bird in the James Bond classic movie Goldfinger. I believe Goldfinger had one of his cars hauled on this plane. I wonder if the hump on the 747 got any styling cues from this converted DC 4?

A car / passenger carrying service may fly from say the frigid Northern cities to points in Florida for the sunbirds to cart themselves, their vehicles and maybe even their pets. An airborne competitor to the Autotrain.
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tonystan
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:07 am

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 25):
It's probably cheaper to just buy a new car at your destination and then sell it when you leave.

Wow, pre recession comment if ever I heard one! LOL!

Whats wrong with car rentals people???? I can rent a car in Malaga or Gibralter for as little as €80 a week...yes..A WEEK! LOL!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
HNLPointShoot
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:16 am

Quoting EmperortimSJO (Reply 8):
I've heard from a few Hawaiians that the military will ship your car for free. So every time I see a Hawaii plate I think they must be in the military, obviously not 100% true.

I don't know what perks the military provides to people stationed in Hawaii, but most people who need a car shipped to/from the Mainland can put it on a Matson freighter for about $1,100 each way, and it takes about 3 weeks. (Link)

Having a car air freighted to the Mainland would be mind-blowing expensive in comparison.
 
MHG
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RE: Viability Of Car-Carrying Airline Like A Sea Ferry

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:44 am

Nowadays it´s simply unviable/uneconomic unless in very few special circumstances as mentionned above.

Main reasons why it is not viable anymore:

1) Due to low weight / high volume per unit ratio leading to excessive rates.

2) Heightened safety requirements (petrol in tank etc.) that don´t allow transportation of pax and car on same flight and security screening that eats into time advantage.
(I know Channel Tunnel requires security checks but at least car+pax can travel together on the same train ...)
A significant time advantage could only be achieved on longer routes ( >500Kms) where price levels for car transport would be exorbitant.

3) General road infrastructure (motorways) has dramatically increased in most areas where it was viable before.

4) Passengers flying to destination combined with car rental has become much cheaper due to increased competition and is way cheaper than a transport of your own car by air could ever be.
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