SA7700
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Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:02 pm

This is a continuation thread of part 1 which can be found here: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 1

Please feel free to continue your discussion on this topic in the new thread.


Regards,

SA7700
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PHX787
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting msp747 (Thread starter):
Um, WN is the one that has the 717's now. If they really wanted the fleet, they'd just hold on to it. I think it's been well established they want to stick with their single fleet philosophy, which has worked for them for decades.

Here's the thing too (continuing from the other thread): What other airlines would use the 717 to compete against DL? If these planes were that important to other airlines, we would've seen many more airlines try to buy them from WN.   
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:18 am

I stated the following in the original thread.............
Yes, Delta may acquire AirTrans 717s. However it will be only done if Delta can cut a very sweet deal.
AirTran's 717 fleet will disappear, but who gets it has yet to be played out. All I can say is Boeing does NOT want AirTran's 717s flooding the market as Boeing would be a big looser.   
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:39 am

The only 2 airlines with east coast centric networks that could maximize the use of a 717 in sub 1200 mile routings are US and Delta, IMHO. Delta however has the tech ops expertise to maximize usage of such a fleet. But yes it would be fun to see a 3 or is it a 4 generation lineup in Delta climbing colors: DC9, MD88, MD90, MD95/B717. At least one year of seeing all of these 4 types on the ground at one time at MSP or DTW would be great.
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:47 pm

It would be a great airplane for a smart start-up that was well capitalized with very exprienced management and a certificate in place purchased from another airline...like Direct Air. It would not have to be based in ATL to give DL fits. GSP, SAV, RIC, PHF, ORF, PIT...CVG or MEM would all wok. And I would bet that some of those cities and states would be tripping over themselves with tax incentives, rent abatements and other enticements.
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:50 pm

I'm looking forward to doing the DTW-ORD run on a 717   I really hope this comes to fruition.
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

Huh?

Nobody else here in the US
 
richarlc
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:55 pm

I flew DL to ATL last Wednesday and asked a DL pilot about this rumor. Pilot said they to expensive to operate. We will see.
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 4):

It would be a great airplane for a smart start-up that was well capitalized with very exprienced management and a certificate in place purchased from another airline...like Direct Air. It would not have to be based in ATL to give DL fits. GSP, SAV, RIC, PHF, ORF, PIT...CVG or MEM would all wok. And I would bet that some of those cities and states would be tripping over themselves with tax incentives, rent abatements and other enticements.

That's exactly what the now barely above water (well, in some places) airline industry- another start-up getting incentives at below cost.

Good grief.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting richarlc (Reply 7):

*rolls eyes* I'm sure he/she has those hard numbers right in the cockpit with them.  
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 2):
I stated the following in the original thread.............
Yes, Delta may acquire AirTrans 717s. However it will be only done if Delta can cut a very sweet deal.
AirTran's 717 fleet will disappear, but who gets it has yet to be played out. All I can say is Boeing does NOT want AirTran's 717s flooding the market as Boeing would be a big looser.

It was also mentioned that DL only wants them if WN will sell ALL of them to DL. I thought that was an interesting twist - DL will only take them at the right price, and if they get all of them, not just a handful. My guess is that offer (if true) would sweeten the pot for WN and make it very attractive (if it wasn't already).
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10):

It was also mentioned that DL only wants them if WN will sell ALL of them to DL. I thought that was an interesting twist - DL will only take them at the right price, and if they get all of them, not just a handful. My guess is that offer (if true) would sweeten the pot for WN and make it very attractive (if it wasn't already).

Am I missing something? How can WN "sell" them if they're all leased?
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 11):
Am I missing something? How can WN "sell" them if they're all leased?

You're not. I wish everyone would stop saying 'buy' when referring to this supposed deal. WN/FL only own 8 and the other 80 are leased from BCC. BCC is a huge part of this and not sure those 80 are actually for sale, but would continue to be leased from them. They certainly do not want them back however as the 25 ex-YX/MX sat for nearly 2 years with no prospects until HA/QF took a few and the rest to start-up Volotea.
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting tztristar500 (Reply 12):

I bet BBC is willing to sell them if that is a sticking point. The last thing they are going to want is to have 88 717s to deal with in 10-20 years.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 11):
Am I missing something? How can WN "sell" them if they're all leased?

With WN holding one end of the lease contract on the planes, and the timeframe in which they last, having WN in the negotiations is quite vital to a successful outcome. We don't know the terms of thier lease, but I'd bet they have rights to extend the lease on atleast some of the frames. Certainly the plane owners would need WN's approval to end the lease early so that there can be a quicker transition of planes from WN to the new customer (or owner).
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:37 pm

Quoting richarlc (Reply 7):
I flew DL to ATL last Wednesday and asked a DL pilot about this rumor. Pilot said they to expensive to operate. We will see.

You should have then asked the DL pilot why AirTran had/s the lowest CASM in the US. ...Yes, lower than SWA.
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 14):
tainly the plane owners would need WN's approval to end the lease early so that there can be a quicker transition of planes from WN to the new customer (or owner).

I don't think thats going to be an issue. WN has stated that if they can't get out of the leases early, then they will just park the aircraft and pay the leases. Boeing even gave WN better lease terms, and they still don't want the 717's
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:05 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 16):
I don't think thats going to be an issue. WN has stated that if they can't get out of the leases early, then they will just park the aircraft and pay the leases.

I don't remember that statement being made. What's odd is all the work that's gone into the training programs for those aircraft (cabin-crew wise) and the cabin-trainers that have been ordered and in some cases delivered for those aircraft. That's a lot of time and money for something you never planned to operate in the first place.
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting richarlc (Reply 7):
I flew DL to ATL last Wednesday and asked a DL pilot about this rumor. Pilot said they to expensive to operate. We will see.

Yeah, because all pilots know exactly what they are talking about when it comes to fleet planning!   I'm a pilot and even I will admit we know nothing when it comes to our business plans and ideas.
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:27 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 16):
I don't think thats going to be an issue. WN has stated that if they can't get out of the leases early, then they will just park the aircraft and pay the leases. Boeing even gave WN better lease terms, and they still don't want the 717's

They have never said that. They said the 717 has no longterm future with WN. Given all the factors, its impossible for WN to have a long term future with the 717 even if they like them. This does not mean that WN was looking to dump the 717 instantly.

I think what WN is really looking for is any deal for thier 717 that leads to no capacity shortfalls by way getting 733/73G/738 frames in time. 733 of course being a harder sell since they would need enough years to pay for the conversion to WN specs.
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 17):
I don't remember that statement being made. What's odd is all the work that's gone into the training programs for those aircraft (cabin-crew wise) and the cabin-trainers that have been ordered and in some cases delivered for those aircraft. That's a lot of time and money for something you never planned to operate in the first place.

There is a lot of fan boy fiction going into this thread and what the "likely" outcome is going to be. Many really show they have absolutely no idea of what is going on internally at WN to get these birds ready for Canyon Blue colors.
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 19):
I think what WN is really looking for is any deal for thier 717 that leads to no capacity shortfalls by way getting 733/73G/738 frames in time. 733 of course being a harder sell since they would need enough years to pay for the conversion to WN specs.

Are you suggesting that WN will try to acquire additional 733s secondhand, to offset the capacity loss for the 717? I think any future additions to the fleet will be way of 737NG or MAX variants.
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fadecfault
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:40 pm

An email was sent out to Airtran Employees Friday from Southwest Airlines Vice president Mike Van de Ven concerning this rumor.
Basically he said SWA is working with Boeing to find the "right solution" for the leased 717 and they wouldn't mind "subleasing" the 717 AND replace them with the 737. They are looking to expand the fleet, not reduce it.
So please understand the 717 will not go anywhere until they have a 1 for 1 replacement solution.
Delta doesn't have any orders for -700 or 800's where swa can take in exchange. I doubt delta would trade most of their current 737's for 717's either.
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KarlB737
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting fadecfault (Reply 22):
Basically he said SWA is working with Boeing to find the "right solution" for the leased 717 and they wouldn't mind "subleasing" the 717 AND replace them with the 737. They are looking to expand the fleet, not reduce it.
So please understand the 717 will not go anywhere until they have a 1 for 1 replacement solution.
Delta doesn't have any orders for -700 or 800's where swa can take in exchange. I doubt delta would trade most of their current 737's for 717's either.

On the other hand what if WN handed over a typical leased B717 towards a new 737-700 or 737-800 in a sweet deal. Boeing sells WN another new aircraft and turns around and sells Delta the B717. Could that be a win-win-win for all three entities?

Courtesy: Dallas News.com

Gary Kelly Won't Discuss Rumors That Delta Will Take Its Boeing 717s

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...ary-kelly-wont-discuss-rumors.html
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 23):

Gary Kelly Won't Discuss Rumors That Delta Will Take Its Boeing 717s

Well, the way things usually work, that probably means the deal is sealed.



I was wondering, on another thread, if those 717s wouldn't be a nice fit for DL from their new hub at LGA to replace some of the RJs?
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 17):

I don't remember that statement being made. What's odd is all the work that's gone into the training programs for those aircraft (cabin-crew wise) and the cabin-trainers that have been ordered and in some cases delivered for those aircraft. That's a lot of time and money for something you never planned to operate in the first place.

Sims/tooling/Cabin-trainers etc. call all be sold, and would likely make the deal a little to make because Delta wouldn't have to do any leg work outside of talking to WN and Boeing.

Quoting fadecfault (Reply 22):

So please understand the 717 will not go anywhere until they have a 1 for 1 replacement solution.
Delta doesn't have any orders for -700 or 800's where swa can take in exchange. I doubt delta would trade most of their current 737's for 717's either.

Hmm, wonder if the owner of BCC could find some way to just....make 737s?  
Quoting mayor (Reply 24):

I was wondering, on another thread, if those 717s wouldn't be a nice fit for DL from their new hub at LGA to replace some of the RJs?

yes. Not only that but i think you would see the shuttle go 717 save the LGA-ORD legs.
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planespotting
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
Well, the way things usually work, that probably means the deal is sealed.

Either that, or they are in very serious discussions - that's how it works in sports negotiations at least.
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fadecfault
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 25):
Hmm, wonder if the owner of BCC could find some way to just....make 737s?

And delivery them.......when? I think Boeing has a slight backlog in the 737 order book.

Per the memo the MAX is considered a replacement for the 717. The MAX is scheduled for '17 and not surprisingly the 717 leases start to end in 2017.

[Edited 2012-03-26 09:53:33]
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westindian425
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting richarlc (Reply 7):
I flew DL to ATL last Wednesday and asked a DL pilot about this rumor. Pilot said they to expensive to operate.

Compared to what other aircraft? Hawaiian is doing just fine with them. This doesn't make any sense.
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting planespotting (Reply 26):

Either that, or they are in very serious discussions - that's how it works in sports negotiations at least.

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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting westindian425 (Reply 28):

Hawaiian also operates them on much shorter stage lengths with the longest, I believe, being HNL-ITO at 216 miles.
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
I was wondering, on another thread, if those 717s wouldn't be a nice fit for DL from their new hub at LGA to replace some of the RJs?

That'd be nice to have the flying on ML.
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 21):
Are you suggesting that WN will try to acquire additional 733s secondhand, to offset the capacity loss for the 717? I think any future additions to the fleet will be way of 737NG or MAX variants.

I'm saying that if the right 733 frames at the right price were a portion of this deal, WN would take them. I am unsure of the possiblity of Boeing or Delta finding said frames cheap enough to pay for a new interior and winglets, but its clear that WN can still operate the 733 to thier own benifit.

All that said, 73G or 738 frames worth integrating into the fleet would be easier to find with the much longer remaining lifespan.
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
I was wondering, on another thread, if those 717s wouldn't be a nice fit for DL from their new hub at LGA to replace some of the RJs?

Great frames to slap on routes like JAX or BUF. Then the 70 seaters they displace can go replace CRJs elsewhere in the system and the 50 seaters can start flying off to the desert. As oil continues its ascent again, it probably can't happen soon enough.
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting fadecfault (Reply 27):
And delivery them.......when? I think Boeing has a slight backlog in the 737 order book.

This is all a hear from people, ah Boeing can't do it......Delta is getting something like 100 737s in 4 years?

Boeing has slots, always has and always will.


Oh and Does WN not have any 737s on order? I'm pretty sure Kelly is in the no to little growth boat with most of the other US airlines.......
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 34):
Oh and Does WN not have any 737s on order? I'm pretty sure Kelly is in the no to little growth boat with most of the other US airlines.......

WN is probably (if not IS) Boeing's largest 737 purchaser, and there are plenty on order.

At the moment, however, these are largely dedicated to replacing older ships in the fleet, vs expanding the fleet.
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 35):

which is my point, WN could use most of its current order, plus a likely top off of NGs, to replace the 717s.

Also it is unlikely they they do a 1 for 1 replacement. A good bit of the FL 717 network is being cut, plus the increase in capacity of going from a 717 to a 73G or 738, and the 717s are replaced quickly.
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fadecfault
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:09 pm

Since there's a lot of conjecture going on I'm going to post the memo. Though I don't think it's going to stop the rumor.


March 23, 2012

MEMORANDUM

TO:

All AirTran Airways In-flight Service Employees

FROM:
Mike Van de Ven

RE:

Boeing 717

Every day, rumors abound in the airline industry; many times we are unable to comment on those
rumors, either with a “yes” or a “no.” Recently, there have been a number of rumors circulating about
the future of AirTran’s 717 aircraft.

The 717 is a good short-haul aircraft, however Southwest has a long and storied history of
maintaining a single fleet type, the 737. The majority of AirTran’s 717 aircraft involve long-term leases
from Boeing, which result in a contractual commitment lasting up until 2024. Gary has stated before
that if the right opportunity presents itself, we would be happy to consider subleasing the 717 aircraft
and replace them with 737s. I can tell you that we continue to work with Boeing to help us find the
right solution for these leased aircraft. This ongoing conversation with Boeing may continue to
generate discussion and perpetuate rumors throughout the duration of the current leases.

At this time, we can’t comment on any specific rumors or discussions. What we can say is that our
goal is to maintain our current combined fleet size. In fact, we hope to grow it by finding ways to
expand our network beyond the lower 48. If we do find a way to exit the 717 leases early, we expect
to complement that decision by implementing a replacement Lift Plan to maintain our current fleet
size. This potential exists as part of the larger Boeing Max order which was placed in December
2011.

Southwest Airlines has a proud history of job security. Any rumors that imply this history is changing
as a result of 717 rumors are false. I would like to assure you that when we are able to share any
information with you that we will do so immediately. Above all, I ask you to continue to keep a current
focus on the day-to-day operations of both Southwest and AirTran. We must continue to keep Safety
as our top priority and to serve our Internal and External Customers at every opportunity.
The views and opinions written here are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.
 
NWAROOSTER
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:26 pm

Yes, the above post states that 717s are basically under a long term lease. It also states that if the opportunity to sub lease the 717s would occur, Southwest would give serious consideration to that option. I am sure Boeing would be more than willing to work with Southwest, so the aircraft could be transferred to another operator. As a major 737 operator, Southwest would be given "consideration" in the disposal of the 717s if Southwest would want to add an additional group of 737s that would equal or exceed the number of 717s replaced. Boeing will want take care of Boeing, but be willing to help Southwest if it is advantageous to Boeing. Also Southwest will not acquire any 737-300s as it would not be in Southwest's best interest.   
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 38):
Also Southwest will not acquire any 737-300s as it would not be in Southwest's best interest.

I agree, for WN to give up the 717s they need something with a similar age (or younger). The 733 does not make the cut, it's 73Gs, 738s or no deal.
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coronado
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:01 pm

Since elsewhere Mr. Kelly has announced they want to keep overall capacity flat, would one option be to replace the 86 or 88 717's with 45 or 50 738s? Seat capacity would remain flat. Delta may also want to part with some 738's early as they bring on MD90's. After all for 2 years DL was selling 738's as fast as they took delivery of them. We already know that WN is dropping 13 or 15 FL cities which used to be 717 heaven,

I have to say that part of above may be wishful thinking--the thought of seeing a DC9 next to a 717, in the same DL colors, makes me salivate.

[Edited 2012-03-26 15:03:56]
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:17 pm

WN has at least 50 new 738s scheduled for delivery over the next couple years. Right now they are to replace 735s and 733s one for one. If a deal can be made for the 717s, they will be replaced instead and the 735s and 733s will stay around a little longer . It's just that simple.
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luvtrains
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:04 am

Data
Deliveries Scheduled 2012-2015 = 33+41+54+48 = 176

717 airframes = 88
735 airframes = 25
733 airframes = 163
there are ~100 733s with winglets, and possibly electronic flight-decks, built in 1990+
there are ~63 733s without upgrades mostly 1980s
Retirements = 88+25+63=176

Southwest, by plan, is positioned to accept deliveries one-for-one allowing for all 717s to be removed by the end of 2015 and maintain their paused growth fleet size @ 700.

For southwest to accept a used 733 this would be an unlikely but viable option-
If a leasing company offered a 733(s) with upgraded flight decks, winglets, up-to-date maintenance (d-check), southwest could use a lightly used interior from the 737-7s they are upgrading., at least the seats? and paint the plane. six year lease? Otherwise there is no need for WN to accept these a/c unless they are more aggressive about growth.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:29 am

Quoting luvtrains (Reply 42):
For southwest to accept a used 733 this would be an unlikely but viable option-
If a leasing company offered a 733(s) with upgraded flight decks, winglets, up-to-date maintenance (d-check), southwest could use a lightly used interior from the 737-7s they are upgrading., at least the seats? and paint the plane. six year lease?

Interesting perspective.

I think in case of growth the airline would be more likely to ask Boeing to squeeze in a few extra 738s. I think their future really is with the 738.
 
luvtrains
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 43):
I think in case of growth the airline would be more likely to ask Boeing to squeeze in a few extra 738s. I think their future really is with the 738.

738s Agreed.

However, to add to the 733 leasing thought. WFNB, for example, has several 20yr old 733s sitting parked in the sun. From a non-industry perspective, you would think that they'd have an analyst run the numbers to see if there is an opportunity for one more competitive lease out of these not quite retirement age a/c. While from WNs perspective it seems unlikely that they would seek such an offer, it has attractive metrics; fleet flexibility, commonality, and the term, ending at the next d-check, would expire as the 738-max production lines are gaining traction.

+ move a ($80m - discount) purchase six years forward

[Edited 2012-03-26 19:54:47]
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting luvtrains (Reply 42):
or southwest to accept a used 733 this would be an unlikely but viable option-
If a leasing company offered a 733(s) with upgraded flight decks, winglets, up-to-date maintenance (d-check), southwest could use a lightly used interior from the 737-7s they are upgrading., at least the seats? and paint the plane. six year lease?

I give you credit for thinking outside the box, but that is a lonnng way to go.

If WN take on additional 733s, they will soon find themselves in the same situation AA is in with their MD-80s. Only worse, they'll be dealing with a type that has an inferior RASM/CASM ratio. A frame which has never won accolades for being durable, and can be an MX hog. And of course, the given - terrible fuel consumption.

Where things are currently at, it is a lot more likely that DL will acquire the 717 than WN add additional 733s secondhand.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
luvtrains
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 45):
Only worse, they'll be dealing with a type that has an inferior RASM/CASM ratio. A frame which has never won accolades for being durable, and can be an MX hog. And of course, the given - terrible fuel consumption.

Interesting detail, thanks.

I think I've ball-parked the details of the fleet replacement schedule if they can ink the deal with DL. These hypothetical monthly fleet retirement/replacement numbers are posted on part 1.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting fadecfault (Reply 37):
Southwest Airlines has a proud history of job security. Any rumors that imply this history is changing
as a result of 717 rumors are false. I would like to assure you that when we are able to share any
information with you that we will do so immediately.

Are these threads being generated from uncertainty at AirTran/WN (mostly on the WN side)?

I'm trying to figure out what is in it for DL to buy the 717s. Maybe, but it just doesn't seem like a great fit. Oh, it would be a quick and cheap way to replace the DC-9-50s and even MD-80s (with a downsizing). But likely? I don't think so.

I joined a.net when the 'what will replace the NW DC-9's' were at a fever pitch. I think some wish to see the T-tails live on at NW/DL. We know the DC-9s and MD-80s are not going to be used forever... I think DL will look at the 717 but make Boeing and Airbus bid on new aircraft.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 45):
If WN take on additional 733s, they will soon find themselves in the same situation AA is in with their MD-80s. Only worse, they'll be dealing with a type that has an inferior RASM/CASM ratio. A frame which has never won accolades for being durable, and can be an MX hog. And of course, the given - terrible fuel consumption.

trijet, I think what you are missing is that any 733's would be only for bridging the gap between the 717 leaving and a new build being avalible. In other words it would be so that Delta or any other customer for the 717's could take delivery of more frames and quicker. The real problem would be finding frames not needing expensive repairs or checks at a price low enough to make spending millions on winglets and "new" interiors viable. Clearly the 733 still works for WN as WN is spending money on the best of thier 733s as we speak keeping them viable for use into the future.

I don't see how the rumored deal could work without them though as the 73G and 738 market is lacking frames avalible. WN is already taken as much of Boeing's production as they can. The only place I can see new 737 frames (of whatever length) is the hands of leasing companies that have yet to place thier orders. Which as far as I can tell is also quite limited. So if Delta wants a pile of 717 "today" its going to have to find a pile of 737 from somewhere. Other wise this is going to be a ugly mess of a 10 year drawdown of a type that will be less and less popular at WN as the number of frames dwindles.

Quoting luvtrains (Reply 42):
Southwest, by plan, is positioned to accept deliveries one-for-one allowing for all 717s to be removed by the end of 2015 and maintain their paused growth fleet size @ 700.

I don't see it. WN can't grow at all if all the 717 are gone by 2015. The 735 and oldest 733 are now in the part of thier lifespan where WN doesn't have a choice about retiring them. WN will also need to start filling in the route "web" that the new airports from the merger. WN has frankly run more than dry shifting frames off weaker routes to new routes during this downturn, and I can't help but feel that WN really owes itself 30+ frames alone in restoring the threadbare sections of its current route web.

International will also put some heavy demands on the 738 fleet in the near future, so one can not assume all new frames can replace old frames for this reason alone.
 
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RE: Latest 717 Rumor: DL Deal In Place Part 2

Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:11 pm

It makes little if any sense to replace perfectly usable 717s with 737-300s. Southwest may keep their 737-300s longer, but adding more 737-300s is NOT a smart business decision.   
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