doulasc
Topic Author
Posts: 753
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:12 pm

Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:50 pm

For years all Canadian Domestic and flights from the USA used Dorval(YUL) and all other international flights used Mirabel(YMX). What was behind closing it to airline traffic? Is Dorval big enough to handle all airline traffic for Montreal?
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
What was behind closing it to airline traffic? Is Dorval big enough to handle all airline traffic for Montreal?

I'm sure you could write a novel on it but long story short: YUL is big enough and Mirabel is an hour from the city with no transportation links other than road.

[Edited 2012-03-24 16:57:19]
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:06 am

A couple of reasons:
a) The envisioned rail to Mirabel never materialized
b) The plan for Mirabel's success was based on Dorval being closed. Alas, this never occurred.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11855
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:10 am

Mirabel was a financial disaster. Airlines are a low margin business. Some of the profit is belly cargo. O&D passenger traffic, domestic or international, is the highest profit. However, to make long haul work, it survives off connecting traffic.

With YMX, the cargo and long-haul were separated from the lifeline of connecting feed, all marginal short-haul and long-haul had to be cut. That created a spiral as each cut flight made another flight marginal. This created a 'death spiral' that eventually shrank traffic to the point it all fit back at YUL.

The 'split-hub' approach at YMX also occured as longer range aircraft were entering service. So flights that once needed a fuel stop on their way (in particular, to Europe) now could bypass YUL. Splitting long-haul/cargo from the Canadian domestic flights forced an acceleration of YUL/YMX bypass.

The third issue was transportation to YMX. The promised rail never materialized.  

Mirabel is now the 'poster child' of why split hubs are economically disadvantageous. A quick way to remove a city from the 'international hubbing map' is to force a split on connections.

We currently have another thread going where US's CEO notes how connections can be the difference between a profitable flight and a loss:
US's Kirby Ranks Hubs By Profitability (by EricR Mar 24 2012 in Civil Aviation)

This is why it is better for most metropolitan areas to shut down their prior airport with the opening of the new airport a la DEN. Very few metropolitan areas have the O&D demand for multiple airports. This is also why it works for two mid-size cities to share a single airport.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:34 am

When I was in grad school and looking for a cheap way home from London to New York I bought a cheapo ticket LHR-AMS-YMX on KL and connected to PE YMX-EWR. Good memories.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:11 am

New York Times article on Mirabel dated 2004, the year the last charter flights moved back to YUL. Scheduled flights had moved back in 1997. I remember my last flight from YMX on a Swissair MD-11 to ZRH, a few months before it closed to scheduled flights.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/03/in...html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&oref=slogin

Excerpt below from the following Aéroports de Montréal (operator of both YUL and YMX) brochure issued last year on the 70th anniversary of the opening of Dorval Airport, ironically now named for the Canadian Prime Minister (Pierre Trudeau) who was largely responsible for the construction of Mirabel.
http://www.admtl.com/UploadedFiles/ADMTL/APropos/Past_Future.pdf

In 1968, 4.5 million passengers transited through Dorval airport. Optimistic passenger traffic forecasts encouraged the Government of Canada to envisage the construction of a new airport capable of absorbing traffic growth well beyond the year 2000. The site at Ste-Scholastique was chosen and Montréal–Mirabel opened in 1975.

According to the initial plan, the transfer of flights to Mirabel was to be done in two stages: first, international flights in preparation for the 1976 Summer Olympic Games; then domestic and transborder (U.S.) flights. However, even before the new Mirabel airport had been officially opened, the hypotheses upon which the project had been based began to crumble. The 1970 recession, the 1973 oil-price shock and the loss of status as the sole gateway combined to slow traffic growth.

In 1982, the Government of Canada decided to maintain domestic and transborder flights at Dorval. There followed a long period of uncertainty during which traffic-sharing between Mirabel and Dorval made flight connections difficult and adversely affected the development of both airports, in addition to creating duplication.

The arrival on the scene of Aéroports de Montréal (ADM) in 1992 sparked a process of reflection on the future of Montréal’s airport system. With the support of many stakeholders within the Greater Montréal community, the Corporation gave air carriers the choice of operating scheduled international flights at Dorval. By 1997, all scheduled international flights, without exception, were transferred back to Dorval. Charter flights followed in 2004. Thus, Dorval — rechristened Montréal–Trudeau — became again the Greater Montréal region’s sole international passenger airport.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2806
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:28 am

Many of the same challenges, in a slightly different form, are being seen in Milan currently. With LIN remaining a vital part of many airlines plans into the region, MXP has struggled to maintain any real competitiveness, given its more remote location. MXP even has a rail link though, which is something YMX never got around to.

The AZ MXP hub ultimately failed in part because of the LIN focus that they still had, which just split the traffic and made the exercise less efficient. Add in the FCO focus that AZ still wanted to keep and there were a number of issues that ultimately got in the road of a profitable business.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2307
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
Is Dorval big enough to handle all airline traffic for Montreal?

Yes. Currently, the capacity for YUL is set at 15 million/year. In 2011, it handled 13.7 million passengers. Work has begun on extending the international jetty with another 6 contact gates and a few remote ones. This should enable YUL to cope with around 20 million passengers.

Same thing could be said in terms of runway layout. YUL could potentially handle 480,000 movements with the current runway system in place. In 2011, it handled less than half that.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-03-24 21:44:15]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Condor24
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:08 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:37 am

I remember flying in and out of Mirabel on BA in the early eighties. If I am not mistaken, were these L1011 Tristars ?

The 'mobile disembarking / embarking carriers' were novel.

Montreal was never a mainstream destination which was another reason the airport failed.
'Condor, the span to fly'
 
EY460
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:25 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:13 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 6):
Many of the same challenges, in a slightly different form, are being seen in Milan currently. With LIN remaining a vital part of many airlines plans into the region, MXP has struggled to maintain any real competitiveness, given its more remote location. MXP even has a rail link though, which is something YMX never got around to.

The AZ MXP hub ultimately failed in part because of the LIN focus that they still had, which just split the traffic and made the exercise less efficient. Add in the FCO focus that AZ still wanted to keep and there were a number of issues that ultimately got in the road of a profitable business.



The only difference is that Linate is exploding and cannot be expanded as it is surrounded by the city. Linate cannot take the intercontinental traffic from Malpensa. I believe Milan will always have 2 airports (3 if you consider Bergamo) as authorities do not want to close it.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1256
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:17 am

I wonder whether the same could happen to Narita, now that Haneda is improving...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
icanfly
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:10 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:24 am

How does Paris make CDG and ORY work? From recollection, ORY was the original airport but continued in operation after CDG opened in the early 1970s.
United: please start SYD-IAH!
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:16 am

Another factor that led to the construction of YMX was noise from supersonic transports. In the late 1960s, it was known that the Concorde and Boeing 2707 would be noisier than the 707 and DC-8, which were not exactly quiet. Some cities built, or proposed, new airports in unpopulated areas to minimize the noise from SSTs. In addition to Mirabel, other airports that were intended for SSTs included Maplin (London), Satholm (Copenhagen), Nord (Paris), Morris Swamp (New York City), Palmdale (Los Angeles), Lake Erie (Cleveland), Munich II (Munich), Lake Michigan (Chicago), the Everglades (Miami) and Grapevine (Dallas).

One runway of the Everglades airport was built before construction was halted on environmental grounds, and it is used for training. Palmdale has limited service. Nord / Roissy was renamed Charles de Gaulle. The Grapevine, Texas airport became DFW. Munich II, which was intended to be open for the ill-fated 1972 Olympic Games, finally opened twenty years later than planned. None of the other airports were built.

Quoting Condor24 (Reply 8):
I remember flying in and out of Mirabel on BA in the early eighties. If I am not mistaken, were these L1011 Tristars ?

I flew BA DTW-YMX-LHR in Jan 1989, on an L-1011. BA had full local traffic rights DTW-YMX. Amazingly, four passengers chose BA in lieu of a DTW-YUL flight on NW. However, BA's ground crew at YMX forgot to unload one DTW-YMX passenger's checked bags. It was mixed in with all the other bags on the bag belt at LHR the next morning.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2607
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting icanfly (Reply 11):
How does Paris make CDG and ORY work? From recollection, ORY was the original airport but continued in operation after CDG opened in the early 1970s.

Whilst the comments made by Lightsaber are pertinent and certainly hold true to the US aviation developments and that lead to the grand HUBs, it should not be applied towards European airport developments in its entirety.

One of the primary differentiators in Europe were the explosion of IT (Inclusive Tour) charters from Northern Europe to the Mediterranean. These lead to significant support for secondary airfields with major conurbations,particularly in France the UK and Germany.

Additionally transport policies in the UK and France supported secondary long haul carriers notably British Caledonian - To West Africa and South America and UTA to the distant french directorates and Francophone Africa.

Both of the above were forced to operate from secondary airports at Gatwick and Orly

In the case of Orly French authorities also built a special DOMESTIC terminal for the use of Air Inter that allowed for easy and quick and frequent travel from the southern major cities into Paris and same day return way before the TGV.

Even today if you are in Marseille or Toulouse domestic air travel is a serious option.

Further prior to deregulation in the EU, many of the business city to city routes operated within the IATA pooling arrangements (Effectively -there was NO competition between what we now call the legacies)

Typically could the from a regional airport to say Paris out on BA and return on AF or reverse on the same ticket no question.

European travel on business was effectively all O&D and long haul well you went with your national carrier or the foreign partner in the main.

Heres the problem many/most Europeans are accustomed to O&D travel from their LOCAL airport to an airport within a few tens of miles of where they want to go to this day - Hence the success of Jet2, EasyJet and Ryanair and German Wings (contrary to the myth on these forums that RYR fly nowhere to nowhere - quite few actually do link real business trade centres oh and yes those favoured Mediterranean sun spots !)

Without the corrupt and expensive award schemes the like of BA would NOT have passengers flying GLA-LHR-AMS period.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2307
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting Condor24 (Reply 8):
Montreal was never a mainstream destination which was another reason the airport failed.

Well no. Montreal was the mainstream destination in Eastern Canada in terms of international flights up until the late seventies. Yes, it was used as a fuel stop, but there was plenty of O&D traffic to and from Montreal as well. Even after being overshadowed by Toronto, Montreal was and still is a major international destination. The line-up of long-haul carriers today at YUL compared to other cities it's size in North America is a testament to this, hence why they are expanding the international jetty after building it only 7 years ago.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-03-25 06:11:25]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8007
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:04 pm

I think what saved CDG from the same fate as Montreal Mirabel was:

1. There was plentiful room to expand, and Aeroports de Paris (the company that runs CDG) took full advantage of that space.

2. CDG had a modern rail link back to the center of Paris.

I sometimes wonder was NRT headed towards the same fate. But I think what saved NRT was the opening of the rail terminals underneath the two international terminals (originally intended for a Shinkansen line) so the JR East Narita Express and Keisei Skyliner could directly go from the center of Tokyo to the airport terminals.
 
User avatar
modernArt
Posts: 465
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:23 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting icanfly (Reply 11):
How does Paris make CDG and ORY work?


Easy. Paris is one of - if not - the most touristed/visited city in the world. Almost 90M pax between the two airports - with a huge percentage originating at or deplaning for the Ile de France.
 
HBGDS
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:09 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:45 pm

There's a book by Elliott Feldman, a political scientist turned lawyer, entitled "Concorde and Dissent" which examines failed techno projects. He also wrote a separate piece on Montreal, but in the book mentioned, he points out how Mirabel fits into the "if you build it they will come" attitude of the 60s-70s. In that model, he puts CDG and IAD, too. WHile both eventually had traffic growth, it took years to achieve
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12423
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:57 pm

I would also suggest as to Mirabel that the Separatist movement in Quebec was a factor. As the separatist movement grew in the later 1970's and into the 1980's, it cause a shift of the English speaking residents as well as several major companies based in Montreal to move to Toronto or other cities in Canada. That contributed to the reduced the anticipated and overall demand for Mirabel.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11855
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting aircellist (Reply 10):
I wonder whether the same could happen to Narita, now that Haneda is improving...

The difference is the population that now lives near NRT and, as already noted, the rail to the airport. Tokyo is also far more populous and wealthy than Quebec

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
I would also suggest as to Mirabel that the Separatist movement in Quebec was a factor.

It certainly didn't help. It is impossible to ignore the lack of connecting traffic with the introduction of longer range aircraft that allowed bypassing a stop.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 2):
A couple of reasons:
a) The envisioned rail to Mirabel never materialized
b) The plan for Mirabel's success was based on Dorval being closed. Alas, this never occurred.

Other reasons"
c) The fed govt was "choosing" Montreal to be the primary intl airport even though YYZ handled many more pax than YUL and had indeed surpassed YUL as long ago as 1964 in terms of passengers handled. Another example of a long list of favouritism to Quebec.
d) A belief that air travel would explode and max out all airport capacity. This happened just about everywhere BUT Montreal. Even today, YUL handled not much more traffic than it did in 1975 (compared to the growth of air travel everywhere else) which is due entirely to the absolute economic decline of Montreal, which continues to this day.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
Mirabel is now the 'poster child' of why split hubs are economically disadvantageous.

It's also a poster child for:
1. Government favouritism to Quebec,
2. Government getting involved in choosing economic winners and losers, ignoring the market place.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
VS11
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:04 pm

Very interesting discussion. I had no prior knowledge about this airport so as I was reading the thread I googled it and found this video on youtube with images before and after 2009. Very very sad and disturbing to see such infrastructure completely abandoned.

Some of the comments below the video do indicate that the separatist movement was the major cause of the airport decline as businesses moved away from Montreal.

So is the airport still abandoned? Is there a plan for it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BsFQAAblL8
 
fcogafa
Posts: 868
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting VS11 (Reply 21):
So is the airport still abandoned? Is there a plan for it?

I think Bombardier are building the C series there
 
cyeg66
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:33 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
This is why it is better for most metropolitan areas to shut down their prior airport with the opening of the new airport a la DEN. Very few metropolitan areas have the O&D demand for multiple airports.

Shhhhh. People, Albertans mostly, that do not live within Edmonton's metropolitan area might hear you and think that you're meddling in their meddling of Edmonton's city centre airport issue. .  
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting VS11 (Reply 21):
Very very sad and disturbing to see such infrastructure completely abandoned.
YMX is far from "completely abandoned". It handles all the cargo flights serving Montreal (at least half a dozen carriers including FedEx, UPS and several Canadian carriers).

It's also the site of Bombardier's assembly plant for the CRJ-700/900/1000 and coming CSeries. And it's the site of Pratt & Whitney's engine test facility, including the home of their 2 747SP testbeds that were previously based in the U.S. It's also the location of PW's assembly plant for the geared turbofan engine that will power the CSeries (probably the first time an aircraft and the engines that power it will be built at the same location).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WtCsbqonuU
Construction of the new PW test/assembly facility including a hangar for the two 747SP testbeds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N589JoV18HU

And all Bell helicopters for the civil market are built at their facility immediately adjacent to Mirabel, although not directly connected to the airport.

[Edited 2012-03-25 12:25:02]

[Edited 2012-03-25 12:26:37]
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1256
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting icanfly (Reply 11):
How does Paris make CDG and ORY work?
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 15):
I think what saved CDG from the same fate as Montreal Mirabel was:

1. There was plentiful room to expand, and Aeroports de Paris (the company that runs CDG) took full advantage of that space.


There was an awful lot of space at YMX too, though... The government just recently released another part of what was taken for the airport... In fact, the total land covered by the whole project was more area than the whole island of Montreal! There are interesting maps on the Wikipedia page for Mirabel... The planned airport would have been gigantic!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montréal-Mirabel_International_Airport

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 16):
Easy. Paris is one of - if not - the most touristed/visited city in the world. Almost 90M pax between the two airports - with a huge percentage originating at or deplaning for the Ile de France.

  

Also, Paris is a much larger city than Montreal. A few cities in the world are large enough to sustain, or need, more than one airport (Paris, London, New York, Tokyo, mostly). But, cities larger than Montreal, including Toronto, fare much better on just one principal airport (LA, Madrid, Frankfurt, for instance). Some cities have the dual airport, principal one and local one, that did not work in Montreal: Chicago, Washington, Dallas... But in those cities, the reason the smaller airport has not closed down are the same that kept Dorval open: commodity of the location. Only, the small airport really could not handle all the big traffic, contrary to what happens in Dorval. But there is more...

[One interesting case is Berlin, which will soon come from a plethora of airports to only a large one... The small historic close-to-city-centre airport has been closed (Tempelhof).]

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Quoting aircellist (Reply 10):
I wonder whether the same could happen to Narita, now that Haneda is improving...

The difference is the population that now lives near NRT and, as already noted, the rail to the airport. Tokyo is also far more populous and wealthy than Quebec

  

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 15):
I sometimes wonder was NRT headed towards the same fate. But I think what saved NRT was the opening of the rail terminals underneath the two international terminals (originally intended for a Shinkansen line) so the JR East Narita Express and Keisei Skyliner could directly go from the center of Tokyo to the airport terminals.

Saved... Up to now. There is also a protection built in the schedule governing the rules of the new international services from Haneda (only a late-night window is open). Lift those rules, and let's see what will happen. Similarly, DFW, JFK/EWR and IAD have been helped by the perimeter rules instated to the smaller airports those were meant to replace (Love, La Guardia and National all had their services curtailed).

Quoting HBGDS (Reply 17):
There's a book by Elliott Feldman, a political scientist turned lawyer, entitled "Concorde and Dissent" which examines failed techno projects. He also wrote a separate piece on Montreal, but in the book mentioned, he points out how Mirabel fits into the "if you build it they will come" attitude of the 60s-70s. In that model, he puts CDG and IAD, too. WHile both eventually had traffic growth, it took years to achieve

   Yes, and with some protection from the authorities, as well. Specifically, in the case of Orly, there is a limitation on the number of movements per year, and a kind of "perimeter rule", that makes flight from some areas (Maghreb, Middle-East, Iberic peninsula and most of French internal network) land there, and flights from the rest of the world land at CDG

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
I would also suggest as to Mirabel that the Separatist movement in Quebec was a factor. As the separatist movement grew in the later 1970's and into the 1980's, it cause a shift of the English speaking residents as well as several major companies based in Montreal to move to Toronto or other cities in Canada. That contributed to the reduced the anticipated and overall demand for Mirabel.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
I would also suggest as to Mirabel that the Separatist movement in Quebec was a factor.

It certainly didn't help. It is impossible to ignore the lack of connecting traffic with the introduction of longer range aircraft that allowed bypassing a stop.

Having separate airports for local and intercontinental flights is not what was meant by "separatism", though 

But the relative decline of Montreal did not help, for sure. Yet, it can't be stated as the main or only reason. I'll come back to it.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 20):
Other reasons"
c) The fed govt was "choosing" Montreal to be the primary intl airport even though YYZ handled many more pax than YUL and had indeed surpassed YUL as long ago as 1964 in terms of passengers handled. Another example of a long list of favouritism to Quebec.

It only show that it could already have been clear, from the start, that it would be a mistake to build YMX... Hindsight, of course, as we know...

You talk about favoritism, I'd rather talk about corruption. It certainly aided some friends of the government...

But, hey, since it's sunday afternoon, let's play politics-fiction. Let's imagine for a moment that, instead of Montreal, the federal government had decided to spend all that money on Toronto's airport system and had chosen to develop and concentrate all domestic and US flights to, say, Downsview, and keep all intercontinental flights at Malton... No separatism, no economic decline, quite the contrary... Would it have made any more sense? Worked any better?

In fact, that messy YUL-YMX situation in Montreal probably helped YYZ grow a bit faster... Many intercontinental airlines wishing to provide good connexions just left Montreal, because they couldn't do it here.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 20):
It's also a poster child for:
1. Government favouritism to Quebec,
2. Government getting involved in choosing economic winners and losers, ignoring the market place.

You repeat yourself, Sir...

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 23):
Shhhhh. People, Albertans mostly, that do not live within Edmonton's metropolitan area might hear you and think that you're meddling in their meddling of Edmonton's city centre airport issue. .  

Be weary... Those things are expensive to repair...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
FDH
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:59 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 20):
It's also a poster child for:
1. Government favouritism to Quebec,

Actually, I would not call that a "favor", that federal legacy is really a burden. So much money spent on this, and so ironic that YUL was named after Pierre-Elliot Trudeau...

FDH
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting VS11 (Reply 21):
Very very sad and disturbing to see such infrastructure completely abandoned.

It makes Montreal something of a laughingstock, actually. When most cities are looking to add airport infrastructure, Montreal is tearing its down.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 22):
Quoting VS11 (Reply 21):
So is the airport still abandoned? Is there a plan for it?

I think Bombardier are building the C series there
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Quoting VS11 (Reply 21):
Very very sad and disturbing to see such infrastructure completely abandoned.

YMX is far from "completely abandoned". It handles all the cargo flights serving Montreal (at least half a dozen carriers including FedEx, UPS and several Canadian carriers).

Those cargo flights are perhaps 3x or 4x daily. YMX is, for all intents and purposes, an abandoned facility.

Although, as Viscount said, you can spot a 747SP there. Presumably, they are parked outdoors?
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Although, as Viscount said, you can spot a 747SP there. Presumably, they are parked outdoors?

As mentioned in Reply 24, Pratt & Whitney's new YMX facility includes a hangar that accommodates both 747SPs. Photo of half of it here.

http://www.marketwire.com/library/20110505-Mirabel800.jpg
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Those cargo flights are perhaps 3x or 4x daily.

It's much higher than that. Look at Transport Canada airport movement statistics. YMX seems to be averaging between 1000 and 1200 air carrier movements a month, or 30 to 40 a day, or about 15 to 20 takeoffs (movements includes takeoffs and landings). And since cargo flights on weekends are rare, Monday-Friday departures are probably closer to 20 to 30 a day.

Total cargo tonnage at YMX is just a little lower than all the cargo combined handled by all carriers at YUL.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 20):
It's also a poster child for:
1. Government favouritism to Quebec,

That is one thing it is certainly not. There were plenty of Quebecois none too happy with the government with the amount of land they designated for the growth of the airport.

It wasn't until Harper took office that the land was sold back to farmers.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
YMX is, for all intents and purposes, an abandoned facility.

The passenger terminal, yes. The rest of the airport, no. There is quite a lot of business activity there if you look it up.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):

The things I'd do to get a chance to run around this place for a few hours...
Flying refined.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:11 am

I would argue that the construction of Mirabel (YMX) was indeed a detriment to the development of the civil aviation/airline industry in Montreal not "favouratism".
There were massive demonstrations by people against the project for years.

If you really want to be sickened by "Federal government favouritism" look at what Ontario has received or continues to receive;

-billions in Federal tax dollars to prop up the GM and Chrysler Canada pension plans and to maintain a moribund car industry in Ontario 4 years ago.
-billions in multi-decade Federal funding for AECL (Atomic Energy Canada Ltd.) for the development of the Candu nuclear reator whose primary client is Ontario Hydro.
-CRTC protection (subsidies?) for English Canadian media businesses overwhelmingly headquartered in Toronto. I pay way more for my cable and satellite TV services than any Americans which greatly subsidizes Toronto.
-Federal government regulations that keep foreign banks from competing on a level playing field against largely Toronto headquartered Canadian banks. My bank fees are way higher than American fees which as a result subsidises Toronto to a large extent.
-Federal funding for the upcoming Pan-American games infrastructure in southern Ontario.
-Massive funding/waste on the G-8 conference in Huntsville a few years ago.

The above Federal funding dwarfs anything Mirabel ever cost.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2307
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 20):
Even today, YUL handled not much more traffic than it did in 1975 (compared to the growth of air travel everywhere else)

Something wrong with your math.

YUL, in 2011, handled almost twice the traffic it did in 2002. As a comparison, YYZ only saw a 29% increase in the same time frame.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 20):
which is due entirely to the absolute economic decline of Montreal, which continues to this day.

? Source ?

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
It makes Montreal something of a laughingstock, actually. When most cities are looking to add airport infrastructure, Montreal is tearing its down.

Montreal is not tearing down YMX. Quite the contrary, Bombardier and P&W Canada are making substantial investments into Mirabel. Thousands of jobs will be created at YMX once the CSeries starts to pick up steam. I wouldn't call that "tearing down".

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 30):
That is one thing it is certainly not. There were plenty of Quebecois none too happy with the government with the amount of land they designated for the growth of the airport.

It was still unnecessary investment in Quebec, by a Quebec Prime Minister, based on some phantom forecast that Montreal air traffic would explode while the already busier airports in YYZ and YVR would not.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 30):
It wasn't until Harper took office that the land was sold back to farmers.

Incorrect. Mulroney sold the initials tracks of land. Harper sold more in 2006.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 30):
The passenger terminal, yes. The rest of the airport, no. There is quite a lot of business activity there if you look it up.

Not enough to justify the huge infrastructure. It's a ghost airport by anyone's measure. YMX has had a total of 9 landings in the last 48 hours (source flightaware) and 2 of those were CV-580's.

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 31):
I would argue that the construction of Mirabel (YMX) was indeed a detriment to the development of the civil aviation/airline industry in Montreal not "favouratism".

It became a detriment when the rosy forecasts were shown to be so completely outlandish.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 32):
Montreal is not tearing down YMX.

The closure of 1 of 2 runways and the mothballing of the terminal sounds like tear down to me. ADM is not tearing it all down (which I suspect is how you interpreted my tear down comment), but much of it has been already.

Quoting Condor24 (Reply 8):
I remember flying in and out of Mirabel on BA in the early eighties. If I am not mistaken, were these L1011 Tristars ?

Most likely. BA used Tristar 200's on East Coast NA routes in the early 80's. BA flew the L.1011-200 on YYZ-MAN in 1982.

Quoting aircellist (Reply 10):
I wonder whether the same could happen to Narita, now that Haneda is improving...

The Tokyo market is so huge -- 2 airports can easily be handled. Haneda can only take a fraction of the intl flights that Narita has.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 15):
I think what saved CDG from the same fate as Montreal Mirabel was:

What saved CDG is that Paris can keep 2 airports busy. Montreal can barely keep one airport at just over 10M pax/year.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
I would also suggest as to Mirabel that the Separatist movement in Quebec was a factor. As the separatist movement grew in the later 1970's and into the 1980's, it cause a shift of the English speaking residents as well as several major companies based in Montreal to move to Toronto or other cities in Canada. That contributed to the reduced the anticipated and overall demand for Mirabel.

Absolutely. The English flight from Quebec reached its zenith in the 1975-1980 period just as YMX was open and looking for pax.

While YUL and YMX were like ghost airports, YYZ was bursting at the seems. Indeed, the Federal Quebec-controlled Liberal govt actually put a moratorium on new airlines serving YYZ from 1976 to 1980.

When the first US LCC's starting flying after deregulation, Federal Quebec-controlled Liberal govt denied Peoplexpress access to YYZ but offered YMX instead. Peoplexpress started YMX-EWR service but it was shortlived. More interference to try and build up YMX service in the face of common sense.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jamincan
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 33):
What saved CDG is that Paris can keep 2 airports busy. Montreal can barely keep one airport at just over 10M pax/year.

13.7 million pax/year (2011) is a little bit more than 10 million. Also, characterizing Montreal as struggling to keep over 10 million is simply false. YUL has seen consistent and steady growth in passengers, particularly international passengers, save for a small blip due to the recession and hasn't been close to dropping below 10 million passengers/year.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 33):
Incorrect. Mulroney sold the initials tracks of land. Harper sold more in 2006.

This is true. I was able to find that Harper released 4,450 hectares but there's no mention of how many Mulroney gave up.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 33):
YMX has had a total of 9 landings in the last 48 hours (source flightaware) and 2 of those were CV-580's.

As Viscount mentioned in Reply 29, cargo flights on weekends are rare. Since "the last 48 hours" at the time of your post encompassed a Saturday and Sunday, I'd say those numbers are expected and not representative of typical movements during the week.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 33):
Montreal can barely keep one airport at just over 10M pax/year.

What are you talking about?! First of all, you're off by about 3.5 million pax/year. Second, where are the 3.8 million people of Montreal flying out of if they can "barely keep one airport"? Third, when is the last time you were actually at YUL? I was there not long ago and it seemed more healthy than YOW where I flew into around the same time.
Flying refined.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting jamincan (Reply 34):
13.7 million pax/year (2011) is a little bit more than 10 million.

No. Rounded to the nearest 10MM, it's in the range of 10MM. My comment was in response to comparing Montreal airports to Paris and Tokyo. When discussing such disparate cities and airports, the common scale is in 10's of MM's handled. That was the context.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 35):
Since "the last 48 hours" at the time of your post encompassed a Saturday and Sunday, I'd say those numbers are expected and not representative of typical movements during the week.

9 landings in 48 hours at a massive airport such as YMX. So you agree that YMX is under-utilized?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 35):
Third, when is the last time you were actually at YUL?

Umm 4 weeks ago on business. You?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 35):
I was there not long ago and it seemed more healthy than YOW where I flew into around the same time.

Anecdotal and irrelevant given the different sizes of the airports and cities served.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3018
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 15):
CDG had a modern rail link back to the center of Paris

This is the largest issue with YMX. Because it had no major rail links to the city centre, it was considerably more expensive to use. The connections to YUL from other parts of Canada did not exist.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
No. Rounded to the nearest 10MM, it's in the range of 10MM. My comment was in response to comparing Montreal airports to Paris and Tokyo. When discussing such disparate cities and airports, the common scale is in 10's of MM's handled. That was the context.

If Montreal is such an inferior market as you claim, then is 10 million (in whatever context you wish) not a sufficient number?

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
9 landings in 48 hours at a massive airport such as YMX. So you agree that YMX is under-utilized?

Again, on a weekend when cargo flights are far more sparse, 9 landings isn't absurdly low. It's not a passenger airport anymore and shouldn't be considered as such. Apart from the single terminal building, the airport is appropriate for the type of business happening there.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
Umm 4 weeks ago on business. You?

About 5 weeks ago. But you didn't answer my other question:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 35):
Second, where are the 3.8 million people of Montreal flying out of if they can "barely keep one airport"?
Flying refined.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 33):
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 32):
Montreal is not tearing down YMX.

The closure of 1 of 2 runways and the mothballing of the terminal sounds like tear down to me.

Both runways are open at YMX. One was briefly deactivated a few years ago but it's been open again for quite a while, although it was shortened from 12,000 to 8,852 ft, probably to avoid the need for snow-clearance on the closed end.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 33):
YMX has had a total of 9 landings in the last 48 hours (source flightaware) and 2 of those were CV-580's.

Sounds like the period mentioned was Saturday and Sunday when there are no cargo flights. The Convair 580s were no doubt Nolinor which is based at YMX.
 
WROORD
Posts: 667
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:36 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
With YMX, the cargo and long-haul were separated from the lifeline of connecting feed, all marginal short-haul and long-haul had to be cut. That created a spiral as each cut flight made another flight marginal. This created a 'death spiral' that eventually shrank traffic to the point it all fit back at YUL.

All true, but also at the time when they built Mirabel Montreal was a huge business center and a textile capital of North America, plus the host city for the Olympics - so most international carriers would serve Montreal. Now, obviously times are different and the preferred point of entry for many carriers is YYZ (17 non canadian carriers in YUL vs. 33 in YYZ).
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11855
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting WROORD (Reply 40):
but also at the time when they built Mirabel Montreal was a huge business center and a textile capital of North America, plus the host city for the Olympics - so most international carriers would serve Montreal.

Montreal had an advantage that they threw away.

For come reason cities do this. We've seen it with Detroit and I believe soon with another city I'll skip naming.


Montreal is just two small of a market for spit Airports. Few metropolitan areas support multiple airports. The ones that do pretty much head up this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_by_population

I see a minimum metropolitan population in the 8 to 12 million range (or 10 million +/- 2) as the least for split airports. So with Paris, I believe AF would do far better if CDG had been built larger and made the primary hub. Paris is large enough for two airports with a metropolitan population over 12 million, but just.

Washington DC, IMHO, has too low of a population for multiple airport (per Wikipedia, 5.6 million for the metropolitan area). Hence the 'perimeter rule' constraining the preferred airport's reach.

Heck, Los Angeles only supports so many airports as San Diego country, Orange County, and Santa Barbara county refuse to build truly competitive international airports and thus traffic must flow to LAX which pushes out shorter haul flying (partially due to the ground traffic) to SNA, BUR, ONT, and LGB.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
sharktail
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:41 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:25 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):
For come reason cities do this. We've seen it with Detroit and I believe soon with another city I'll skip naming.

Sounds like a good riddle. OK, I'll bite: London? With their refusal to expand LHR, seems like they are going to be eliminating LHR as the dominant European hub....
 
r2rho
Posts: 2440
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting icanfly (Reply 11):
How does Paris make CDG and ORY work? From recollection, ORY was the original airport but continued in operation after CDG opened in the early 1970s.

Paris is a huge metro area that has more than enough O&D to support 2 airports (and more if it weren't for the TGV).

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
YMX is far from "completely abandoned". It handles all the cargo flights serving Montreal (at least half a dozen carriers including FedEx, UPS and several Canadian carriers).

It's also the site of Bombardier's assembly plant for the CRJ-700/900/1000 and coming CSeries. And it's the site of Pratt & Whitney's engine test facility, including the home of their 2 747SP testbeds that were previously based in the U.S. It's also the location of PW's assembly plant for the geared turbofan

Indeed, while no longer a commercial airport, as an aviation facility it is still useful (though one rwy would suffice for its current needs)

Quoting aircellist (Reply 25):
[One interesting case is Berlin, which will soon come from a plethora of airports to only a large one... The small historic close-to-city-centre airport has been closed (Tempelhof).]

Funnily though, the new airport is sized too small and its main advantage will simply be to handle current traffic at a single facility, but not provide for significant growth. In a short-sighted decision based on outdated plans from the 1990s, TXL will be shut down, although it could pefrectly stay open alongside BER.
 
rogercamel
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:41 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:35 pm

Interesting reading.

Reading up, one of the things that is very evident is the over-optimism surrounding the YMX in the past - according to wiki it was planned to expand to the largest in the world at one point. (Incidentally - planners in Asia are equally prone to such wild forecasting at times - the proposed second airport for SGN is planned to handle 100 million passengers a year, and a little know airport Chu Lai (VCL - also in VN) recently courted for studies to increase its cargo capacity to towards 5 million tons a year - 25% more than HKG does now, and with only 4 milltion passengers per year. There are similarly ambitious plans for airports in Indonesia).

It is possible to maintain two airports (or more) serving one area, but they have to be managed and complement each other, usually due to restrictions at one airport or the other, apart from the largest few cities that have sufficient size to maintain two in direct competition with each other. DCA is heavily restricted, and hence IAD takes the international traffic, and is a viable hub. NRT survives partly because Tokyo is so large, and because it is such an attractive position for a hub linking USA with Asia - HND caters far more to O&D traffic. In London, airports other than LHR find their niche because of the capacity issues at LHR (London could sustain more than one in direct compeition I'm sure. Whilst I don't really know the area well, I'd also imagine that the restrictions at LGA assist EWR and JFK somewhat as well, helping to make all 3 airports successful.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11855
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting sharktail (Reply 42):
Sounds like a good riddle.

One I'll decline to answer due to *strong* counter-opinions of friends and relatives (who are in financial danger if I'm right...).

Quoting rogercamel (Reply 44):
according to wiki it was planned to expand to the largest in the world at one point.

I believe YMX could have been a very substantial airport.
1. If YUL had closed
2. If *both* of the proposed rail lines were built.
3. If Quebec never has their separatist phase (unlikely... I know).


One should design a new airport for 30 years of (future) growth.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:27 am

Quoting WROORD (Reply 40):
the preferred point of entry for many carriers is YYZ (17 non canadian carriers in YUL vs. 33 in YYZ).

You also have to keep in mind that the population of the metro Toronto area is about 50% larger than Montreal. There are many cities in the U.S. (and elsewhere in the world) larger than Montreal that don't have anything close to Montreal's international airl traffic, and have far fewer than 17 foreign carriers.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
There are many cities in the U.S. (and elsewhere in the world) larger than Montreal that don't have anything close to Montreal's international airl traffic, and have far fewer than 17 foreign carriers.

But for a city of its size, Montreal handles far fewer passengers than any similar sized city in NA, and many smaller cities handle more passengers than Montreal. Look at YYC.....similar passenger numbers to YUL but perhaps only 1/4 or 1/5 the catchment population. This is absolutely a factor of Montreal's standing of one of the poorest cities in NA with relatively poorer business climate driving slower economic growth, and with it, fewer passenger numbers. This is a decades long trend and further highlights the sheer pork-barrrel nature of building YMX -- spending $ unnecessarily to boost Montreal's economy to the detriment of English Canada investment and common sense.

The closed YMX terminal could perhaps be re-opened as a museum to government waste or favourtism to Quebec. Hard-working Albertans and Ontarians could visit their tax dollars in this house of waste, and laugh. Or cry.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 47):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
There are many cities in the U.S. (and elsewhere in the world) larger than Montreal that don't have anything close to Montreal's international airl traffic, and have far fewer than 17 foreign carriers.

But for a city of its size, Montreal handles far fewer passengers than any similar sized city in NA, and many smaller cities handle more passengers than Montreal. Look at YYC.....similar passenger numbers to YUL but perhaps only 1/4 or 1/5 the catchment population.

I was referring to international traffic only. where YUL has far more traffic (and airlines) than many cities much larger than YUL.

And if you want to compare total YUL traffic to a city like YYC you also have to consider the geography. YUL is almost on the U.S. border and it's very easy for YUL residents to drive across the border to benefit from lower U.S. fares. Being so close to the major population center of North America also means you have a lot of options other than air travel (car, bus, train) to many major cities which are convenient to YUL by surface travel.

There are no U.S. airports within convenient driving distance of YYC, unless you consider 6 hours (Great Falls) or 9 hours (Spokane) convenient. And GTF and GEG are hardly major airline hubs. And, apart from YEG, all major cities in North America are a very long drive from YYC, meaning you have far fewer options but to fly from YYC. Unlike YUL, YYC also has no passenger rail service. How many passengers use VIA Rail every day from YUL to YOW and YYZ, for example?
 
rogercamel
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:41 am

RE: Why Was Montreal Mirabel Closed To Airline Traffic

Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:06 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
I believe YMX could have been a very substantial airport.
1. If YUL had closed
2. If *both* of the proposed rail lines were built.

1. - yes - I agree
2. - would have helped to a degree. But - airport rail links typically struggle to provide more than 25% of the patronage to the airport - sometimes very significantly less than the original patronage forecast for the railway.

Who is online