UAL777UK
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UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:59 am

There was some time ago speculation that UA were looking at a future NB order but this all seems to have gone quiet. I know that the merged company must have more than enough on its plate anyway but I was wondering if we will see that order in 2012?

Any thoughts?
 
sweair
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:34 am

Maybe they wait for Boeing to announce the new 757..  
 
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seabosdca
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:34 pm

They have some time to decide what to do. Their A320/A319 and 757 fleets are aging, but not as old as (for example) DL's oldest A320s. Only the few 737-500s need immediate replacement. They are already taking delivery of plenty of 737-900ERs, which can gradually replace 737-500 capacity (obviously with different NB types shifting from route to route). I expect they are evaluating the 737MAX and A32Xneo as we speak.
 
nycdave
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:04 pm

Yeah -- Remember, they've got over 60 737s on order, and are taking about 5-7 more this year than they're planning to retire (getting rid of the 735's). The PMCO 737 fleet is in great shape and very young, and the PMUA ABs aren't too old just yet. For the near-term, they've got no big changes they need to make, and enough on order to provide some steady growth.

That said, they have to be looking for what to do with the 757 fleet by the end of the decade, as well as thinking about the older PMUA A320's. Like seabosdca, I'm sure they're taking a careful look at the NEO and MAX, but feel a lot less pressure to make a decision than, say, DL or AA.

I wouldn't be surprised if UA waited until 2014-15 to see some testing numbers come in, before placing an order. By that point, B might even have a clean-sheet NB to launch with deliveries starting in the early 2020's...

I think most of their "new plane" budget is going to be dedicated to WB -- they've simply got too many that they're already replacing, or are going to have to replace.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:25 pm

Keep in mind that UA is investing millions in replacing the bins on the nb Airbus aircraft as part of their fleet revamp program. Combine that with a large and relatively new 737 fleet, they are in no rush to log a new order.

UA frankly has a lot more pressing issues right now than a narrow body order (i.e. the issues merging the IT systems, training issues for customer service/gate agents).

They should be 100% focused on getting their IT issues resolved, getting new contracts negotiated with their labor groups and train, train, train on their integrated procedures.
 
windy95
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:35 pm

I believe that you will hear about an order to replace around 80 of the older 757's in the very near future. Either B737-900's or A321's with I believe Boeing to be the winner.
 
ord
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:32 pm

According to this recent article, United is expected to place a large narrow-body order around April or May:

March 7, 2012
Airbus fine-tunes tactics after record order run
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/.../us-airbus-a-idUSTRE82613D20120307

"This year's mostly keenly awaited order for some 150 aircraft from United Airlines, postponed from January and expected in a month or so, is likely to contain several dozen of the older models whoever wins, market watchers say."
 
jfk777
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:11 pm

What areb they going to replace the 744 fleet with is a question. 777-300ER's ? 748 I's
 
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STT757
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
What areb they going to replace the 744 fleet with is a question. 777-300ER's ? 748 I's

A350s is what they stated.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting ord (Reply 6):
According to this recent article, United is expected to place a large narrow-body order around April or May
Quoting ord (Reply 6):
is likely to contain several dozen of the older models whoever wins, market watchers say.

Be interesting to see how the order is placed, if divided between A & B, what with Smisek coming from an all B background so as to speak.

Quoting ord (Reply 6):
777-300ER's ? 748 I's

Would love to see either of those in the fleet.
 
roseflyer
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 9):

Be interesting to see how the order is placed, if divided between A & B, what with Smisek coming from an all B background so as to speak.

Smisek is a Harvard educated corporate attorney with an economics background. That's not an all B background. Before being found by Gordon Bethune in 1995, he didn't know the difference between Airbus and Boeing as he was a partner in a law firm in the oil industry. Also the board of directors is an even mix between UA and CO.

Personally I'd expect any order to be very objective if it is MAX vs NEO. The company is driven by costs and analysis nowadays. It's not a good ol boys club based on opinions. It's senior analysts (not accountants) running numbers on everything from fuel burn, maintenance costs, depreciation costs, financing charges, support services, etc to figure out what works out best. However the fact that they are currently taking delivery of new 737NGs and haven't taken delivery of an A320 since 2002 might make the 737 more likely.

[Edited 2012-03-29 10:48:22]
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Heavierthanair
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:34 pm

G'day

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
haven't taken delivery of an A320 since 2002

Was that the last delivery of new aircraft to old United?

Kind of difficult to maintain an updated fleet that way. The new 738's coming in now for the combined CO and UA likely only cover half of what is required to update the fleet, so I see some urgency for UA placing that rumored new narrowbody order.
That is likely going to be a split as well, unless A or B are going all out to prostitute themselves - nothing unheard of  


Cheers

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roseflyer
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 11):

Kind of difficult to maintain an updated fleet that way. The new 738's coming in now for the combined CO and UA likely only cover half of what is required to update the fleet, so I see some urgency for UA placing that rumored new narrowbody order.

UA has been retiring narrowbodies and replacing them with regional jets. The E170s and CR7s essentially replaced the 737 classics as the airline downsized. CO replaced its older 737s with new 738s and 739ERs.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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STT757
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:16 pm

I think this pending order, rumored to be for 150 aircraft, will be a mix of existing NG 737s and 737 MAX. Probably a top off order of 30-50 737-900ERs to continue the fleet replacement of UA's domestic 757s, and 100 or so 737Max that would replace the Airbuses starting around 2017.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 4):
They should be 100% focused on getting their IT issues resolved, getting new contracts negotiated with their labor groups and train, train, train on their integrated procedures.

While true, I'd imagine that the people devoted to negotiating for new aircraft are not necessarily the same people who would be training front line staff or being hands-on with the IT stuff. Also, if they are going to need aircraft in 3-5 years, it makes sense to "get in line" now rather than wait until they are needing them on the property.

Having said that, I doubt they need a huge order - they can probably start with 50 OEO's and 50-100 NEO's (ok, granted, that's not a small order, per se) and stretch those out over the rest of the decade.

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windy95
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:07 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
What areb they going to replace the 744 fleet with is a question. 777-300ER's ? 748 I's

A350s is what they stated.


Rumour has it the order of 25 A350's may be on the chopping block. But nothing yet on the Heavy replacement until the narrow body order is done.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
might make the 737 more likely.

This is what it sounds like. Does not sound like it will be a split order. And I do think the all Boeing fleet of CAL will win out.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
I think this pending order, rumored to be for 150 aircraft, will be a mix of existing NG 737s and 737 MAX. Probably a top off order of 30-50 737-900ERs to continue the fleet replacement of UA's domestic 757s, and 100 or so 737Max that would replace the Airbuses starting around 2017

The order will replace 80+ of the older United 757's with the 900's along with options to the MAX to start retiring the A320's
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:17 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 11):
The new 738's coming in now for the combined CO and UA likely only cover half of what is required to update the fleet, so I see some urgency for UA placing that rumored new narrowbody order.

Not all of the 738s are new. CO took delivery of 738s starting in 1998 and the 73G in 1997.
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msp747
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:22 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
Rumour has it the order of 25 A350's may be on the chopping block

It seems to me it would make more sense to order 773's or 77X's for the long haul fleet, which could replace the 744's and would fit better with their current fleet of 772's. However, I could see UA using their down payment on the A359's and ordering A320 or A321NEO's to replace the aging 757's. They already have Airbus trained pilots for their narrowbody fleet, so it's not like it would cost them a lot of money to add them.
 
BOACCunard
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 16):
Not all of the 738s are new. CO took delivery of 738s starting in 1998 and the 73G in 1997.

Yeah, but it should be 10+ years before they need to be replaced.
Getting There is Half the Fun!
 
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drerx7
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting msp747 (Reply 17):
They already have Airbus trained pilots for their narrowbody fleet, so it's not like it would cost them a lot of money to add them.

The same could be said for the 737 fleet tho...of which they have more of and existing outstanding orders.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 17):
However, I could see UA using their down payment on the A359's and ordering A320 or A321NEO's to replace the aging 757's.

Or they could not spend any money and just run the existing narrowbody order and see how much Boeing will prostitute themselves to follow up the order.
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gigneil
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:04 am

There is no rumor of the A359 being chopped. They talk that plane up constantly.

NS
 
boilerla
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting msp747 (Reply 17):
However, I could see UA using their down payment on the A359's and ordering A320 or A321NEO's to replace the aging 757's. They already have Airbus trained pilots for their narrowbody fleet, so it's not like it would cost them a lot of money to add them.

Doubt Airbus would allow it. They already did the same thing once before--the A359 order down payment was made (at least in part) using the deferred deliveries of the 42 A320s and A319s that UA had on their books in 2008, then mysteriously disappeared in 2009 when the A359 order was made.

Besides UA admitted that they got their A359s dirt cheap. The down side of the MOU is that they admitted outright cancellation is nearly impossible, but they have wiggle room in the delivery dates--slightly. If the terms are that strict I doubt Airbus would allow them to change it again.
 
tsnamm
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
Only the few 737-500s need immediate replacement. They are already taking delivery of plenty of 737-900ERs, which can gradually replace 737-500 capacity (obviously with different NB types shifting from route to route)



The question is what will they replace the 735's with directly...with CO, the 735 was configured with 105 seats IIRC...Any of the other 737's they have are too much plane for any market they deployed 735's on....all the other 737 types they are taking delivery of are substantially larger in terms of capacity. What aircraft are they planning to use in place of the 735 as they remove the type from the fleet?
 
VC10er
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:25 am

Question: how many 757's does United use for true transcon flights...ocean to ocean? It seems like a 737-9 can do most other jobs? No?

If that is the case, vs waiting for a subpar replacement then for: 14 p.s. 757's plus the 757's from Boston, DC, Philly etc
why wouldn't they just by nice new 767's (like the new ANA 767's) ginstead and then even have extra widebody capacity if needed?

Is that going cost so much more? Would there be such capacity issues?
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
United1
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting tsnamm (Reply 22):
The question is what will they replace the 735's with directly...with CO, the 735 was configured with 105 seats IIRC...Any of the other 737's they have are too much plane for any market they deployed 735's on....all the other 737 types they are taking delivery of are substantially larger in terms of capacity. What aircraft are they planning to use in place of the 735 as they remove the type from the fleet?

The 739ERs coming onboard this year don't directly replace the 735 what UA will do is shift 319/73G capacity around to cover the 735s that are leaving.
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drerx7
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 24):
Quoting tsnamm (Reply 22):
The question is what will they replace the 735's with directly...with CO, the 735 was configured with 105 seats IIRC...Any of the other 737's they have are too much plane for any market they deployed 735's on....all the other 737 types they are taking delivery of are substantially larger in terms of capacity. What aircraft are they planning to use in place of the 735 as they remove the type from the fleet?

The 739ERs coming onboard this year don't directly replace the 735 what UA will do is shift 319/73G capacity around to cover the 735s that are leaving.


Exactly. The 735 capacity is being covered at present with E70 and CR7 equip as well. In most cases the 735 is used on routes that:
1.) To RON birds at cheaper stations like BTR vs. IAH
2.) Add F class on certain routes
3.) Add capacity on routes that really needed a 70 seater vs. a 50 seater or 120 seater.

CO was/is married to the 735 due to leases and what not; but, CO does not like these birds - they do not have favorable CASMs.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
cruiseshipcrew
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:11 am

Even though I wish it was true, I'm tired of the rumors that the A350s are getting chopped from the order book. They keep saying they are very excited for that aircrafts arrival!
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speedygonzales
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:38 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
Rumour has it the order of 25 A350's may be on the chopping block.

I guess it's more wishful thinking from anti-Airbus people than a rumor.
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gigneil
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 23):
Is that going cost so much more? Would there be such capacity issues?

Yes. Totally not doable.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
Rumour has it the order of 25 A350's may be on the chopping block. But nothing yet on the Heavy replacement until the narrow body order is done.

Rumour has it.......where? On A-net ?   
 
ukoverlander
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:35 pm

With a dual fleet of 737's and A320's and an existing established infrastructure in place for both aircraft maintenance and training of both flight and cabin crews, it's hard to see the logic for UA going 100% with Airbus or Boeing with this order. A mixed order can give them the best of both worlds. On the one hand, the ability to target the best aircraft to specific routes, and on the other maintaining healthy competition between manufacturers A and B that could be very helpful when negotiating the replacement of other parts of the fleet in the future. The other benefit is that by buying aircraft from both you should be able to receive aircraft more quickly, benefiting from the production lines of both manufacturers building your aircraft simultaneously.

This is a game of economics - not personal preferences or blindly misplaced loyalty. I know that will disappoint a lot of A-netters who would like reality to mirror their own biases.
 
windy95
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 29):
Rumour has it.......where? On A-net ?
Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 27):
I guess it's more wishful thinking from anti-Airbus people than a rumor

No it is actual talk and a feeling inside the company. Their will be a heavy order after the narrow-body deal is done. The A350 will be revisited during this time. Nothing to do with A.net rumours or Anti-Airbus talk. Sorry to burst your bubbles.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 31):
No it is actual talk and a feeling inside the company.

Hmm, no source, no link. Effectively nothing to suggest that this is anything more than unsubstantiated conjecture on your part it would seem?
 
msp747
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 30):
With a dual fleet of 737's and A320's and an existing established infrastructure in place for both aircraft maintenance and training of both flight and cabin crews, it's hard to see the logic for UA going 100% with Airbus or Boeing with this order

Didn't several European airlines at one time have large fleets of 737's and A320s? Most if not all have all gone to single fleet types in favor of Airbus. So why is it hard to see the logic of an airline, which has a 737 fleet both larger and younger than its A320 fleet, ditching Airbus in favor of more 737s? I'm not saying it will happen or even should happen. I personally like a little variety. I just think it's funny how people who believe this will be the outcome are often dismissed as nothing more than "Boeing fanboys"
 
windy95
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 32):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 31):
No it is actual talk and a feeling inside the company.

Hmm, no source, no link. Effectively nothing to suggest that this is anything more than unsubstantiated conjecture on your part it would seem?




When was the last time you sourced an internal rumour with a link? You must not understand what the word rumour means. And yes more times than not the rumours we hear on these things come true. You need to loosen up a bit.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 33):
I just think it's funny how people who believe this will be the outcome are often dismissed as nothing more than "Boeing fanboys"



Bingo. For me I do not care what airplanes we have as long as the profit and paychecks keep coming in. Some people are to uptight to think that Boeing or Airbus might not be chosen. It is almost laughable.
 
windy95
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 30):
With a dual fleet of 737's and A320's and an existing established infrastructure in place for both aircraft maintenance and training of both flight and cabin crews, it's hard to see the logic for UA going 100% with Airbus or Boeing with this order

With a fleet of 747's, 777's and 787's and an existing infrastructure in place or soon to be for all three aircraft including maintenance and crew training along with already in place stores it is hard to see the logic of adding another aircraft type like the A350. Using your logic we should instead be ordering more 787's and next gen 747's and 777's.
 
Daysleeper
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 35):
With a fleet of 747's, 777's and 787's and an existing infrastructure in place or soon to be for all three aircraft including maintenance and crew training along with already in place stores it is hard to see the logic of adding another aircraft type like the A350. Using your logic we should instead be ordering more 787's and next gen 747's and 777's.

Perhaps I’ve e miss-understood, but I thought the logic in his post was that they could pick the best from both Airbus and Boeing as they have existing infrastructure to support both.

Your logic, would be to go all Boeing. Which by co-incidence , goes along with your unsubstantiated “rumour” that they want to cancel the A350. But who knows, maybe it’s true, maybe you know UA’s fleet manager, or more likely in-between throwing guitars a UA baggage handler told you he doesn’t like Airbus.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 36):
I thought the logic in his post was that they could pick the best from both Airbus and Boeing as they have existing infrastructure to support both.

Correct Daysleeper. You read the post in full and therefore completely understood the case being proposed.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
When was the last time you sourced an internal rumour with a link? You must not understand what the word rumour means.

Thank you for confirming my assumption that your post is pure supposition and entirely devoid of any credible factual basis.
 
windy95
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 36):
Perhaps I’ve e miss-understood, but I thought the logic in his post was that they could pick the best from both Airbus and Boeing as they have existing infrastructure to support both.

Yes you did mis-understand. His post was that a split B737 and A320 order makes sense because we have the infrastructure in place for both. It was not that we should pick the best from Boeing or Airbus because we we have the infrastructure to support both. So by following his logic since we already have everything we need for the B777, B747 and soon the B787 why would we want to take on another aircraft9the (A350) for which we have no infrastructure in place for whatsoever.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 36):
Your logic, would be to go all Boeing

My logic has nothing to with what manufacturer makes the plane but by the model itself.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 36):
you know UA’s fleet manager, or more likely in-between throwing guitars a UA baggage handler told you he doesn’t like Airbus.

Funny that you have no idea of who I am or what I may be privy to yet you feel the need to insult or degrade me to score your a point.

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 37):
Correct Daysleeper. You read the post in full and therefore completely understood the case being proposed.

Please show me in your post where you where suggesting that we purchase the "best" of both Boeing and Airbus. You are clearly talking about the B737 and the A320 for a split order being the best for us due to having the infrastructuer for those two types of aircraft.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 39):
Please show me in your post where you where suggesting that we purchase the "best" of both Boeing and Airbus. You are clearly talking about the B737 and the A320 for a split order being the best for us due to having the infrastructuer for those two types of aircraft.


What are you talking about Windy ????? That is exactly what the post says!!!!!!!!

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 30):
A mixed order can give them the best of both worlds. On the one hand, the ability to target the best aircraft to specific routes

Which part of "the ability to target the best aircraft to a specific route" do you not understand ?????

Try reading the post in it's entirety BEFORE you write your response to it.


                          
 
flash330
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 35):

But how long are the 747s and the 777s gonna be in the fleet for? can't see what's wrong with a 737-8/ A321neo order for short haul and a 787/A350 for long
 
United1
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting flash330 (Reply 41):
But how long are the 747s and the 777s gonna be in the fleet for? can't see what's wrong with a 737-8/ A321neo order for short haul and a 787/A350 for long

There is nothing wrong with operating a 787/350 mix for the widebody fleet. Every airline is constantly looking at their fleet plans and UA may feel that the 350-900 is a little small for a 744 replacement now that the merger has taken place. Canceling them is probably not an option but they may be able to defer them a bit until the 777s are ready to be replaced...they would work well for that.

The 777s were delivered between 1995 and 2007 mostly (a couple more came online in 2010) so they are not going anywhere any time soon.

The 744s came online between 1989 and 2000 so they are up first for replacement (along with the 762/older 763.)

[Edited 2012-04-01 17:47:58]
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Narrow Body Order...When?

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 31):
No it is actual talk and a feeling inside the company.

Not one that anyone has heard but you it seems.

What do you suggest fly instead?