QF175
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Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:37 am

Below is a snap shot on what was discussed in Australian Aviation Thread # 59.

* Qantas fleet news
* Skytrans confirmed it will launch Toowoomba-Sydney services in JUL12
* Alliance Airlines F100 services
* Qantas 747-400 refurbishment schedule
* Qantas and its JNB services from Sydney
* Qantas A380 services
* Lengthy discussion about Qantas' Dallas - Australia flights and passenger numbers
* QantasLink to introduce 717s on Brisbane-Alice Springs in APR12
* Alice Springs Airport happens to be listed in the Virgin booking engine - possible new service?
* Lengthy discussion Australia - South America air services market
* Strong passenger growth for Brisbane and Melbourne Airports
* Melbourne Airport expansion
* Virgin Australia announces it will construct a lounge at Hobart Airport in 2013
* Various Airline schedule changes and increases
* Aerolineas Argentinas - possible changes to SYD schedule
* Qantas 747 retirement
* Jetstar Hong Kong announcement
* SilkAir inaugurates Darwin services
* Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic finally commence codesharing on Sydney - Hong Kong vv
* EVA Air Brisbane services
* Flightaware finally introduces coverages in Australia
 
QF175
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:48 am

Push for international flights from Canberra

Quote:

Released 26/03/2012

Canberra’s push for international flights in 2013 will step up this month with the establishment of a taskforce to coordinate our city’s efforts.

The taskforce will comprise members drawn from the business and tourism sectors to work with Canberra International Airport and the ACT Government.

Now is the time for a Canberra team to come together to pitch to airlines to start direct international flights to and from Canberra.

In recent months, the ACT Government has been meeting with key stakeholders, and last month I visited New Zealand to hold initial discussions with aviation and airline representatives about future direct services.

Following meetings with Air New Zealand, Wellington Airport and Positively Wellington Tourism there is a consensus that with the appropriate level of investment and collaboration we could attract significant levels of business and leisure travellers in both directions.

Positive discussions with Tourism Australia to market cooperatively into cities that could be serviced by direct flights have also taken place.

Last year the Government committed $100,000 for an Airline Access Development Fund. From this has come a demand analysis report – which included consultation with key stakeholders – that identifies and evaluates potential markets to attract direct international flights. A draft report is currently under consideration and further international routes such as Canberra-Singapore are being examined.

The initial indications from business and tourism industry stakeholders have been extremely positive, and it is now time to gather all our expertise and pitch to airlines to attract them to Canberra.

Source Link
 
tayser
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:16 am

in other QF news:

http://www.theage.com.au/business/fi...ic-from-qantas-20120328-1vxmm.html

Quote:
Fiji wrests control of Air Pacific from Qantas
Matt O'Sullivan
March 28, 2012 - 11:53AM

The military-controlled Fiji government has tightened its ownership rules for airlines in a move aimed at reducing the control Qantas, a major shareholder, exerts over the flag carrier Air Pacific.
The new law stipulates that Air Pacific will have to be under the ''substantial ownership and effective control'' of the government, a Fijian citizen or a corporation which is at least 51 per cent owned by Fijians.
The Civil Aviation Decree will also require that at least two-thirds of Air Pacific's board are Fijian, and that the airline is ''under actual and effective control of Fijian citizens''.
Advertisement: Story continues below
The Fijian government has argued Qantas, which has a 46 per cent in Air Pacific, has maintained effective control over the airline through super-majority and veto rights over significant parts of the airline.
 
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EK413
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 4):

Probably the government could've committed the $100,000 else where which really needed it...

If the demand was there I understand but really what's so difficult about transitting VIA Sydney or Melbourne etc...

EK413
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allrite
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:23 am

After living in Canberra for 3 years I absolutely love the place. It's so much easier than Sydney and you can find real peace and quiet when you desire it.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 4):
Canberra has a decent catchment (Queanbeyan, Wagga etc) but the total population within a radius of 150-200km will still be substantially below the population of Adelaide and it's catchment. Look at how little service ADL gets is as it is...

How much of that catchment other than Canberra itself is likely to travel overseas? Canberra is too close to Sydney and the main highway goes straight through to Sydney Airport (not that it's any fun driving along it once you approach Sydney). It's 25 minutes of flight time by jet (double it to include taxiing at Sydney airport). I'd love a fast train airport to airport via the respective city centres, but I'm probably dreaming. It will be necessary if they want to turn it into Sydney's second airport, but I already struggle to see that coming true.

But Canberra is too far away from anything bar south pacific countries for narrowbody service and it's difficult to see there being enough demand for widebodies. You would really need a "Greater Sydney airport" situation with fantastically cheap deals to make it a worthwhile for passengers to fly out on, and it's still probably more cost effective for the likes of Scoot, Jetstar and AirAsiaX to fly out of Sydney, whatever the airport charges due to the greater demand.

* Are there any overseas destinations (eg NZ) where there is consistent and sufficient government travel?
* Are there any seasonal destinations with sufficient travel? (eg snow trips to NZ. Canberrans tend to be pretty outdoorsy. University holiday/return related flights?)

The other option might be feeder domestic legs that connect with overseas flights (eg via Darwin or Cairns to Asia).

Even if overseas tourists were willing to fly directly into Canberra the city needs more decent accommodation. Most of them are designed around driving tourists or serviced apartments for longer stayers. When parliament is in session it's difficult to book anything decent at a reasonable price.
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Milesdependent
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:43 am

Quoting QF175 (Thread starter):
* Aerolineas Argentinas - possible changes to SYD schedule

Looks confirmed to me. Non-stop to SYD, and pulling out of AKL.

First EZE-SYD on 2 July.

AR 1180; EZE-SYD; 0830/1320; 340; Mo,We,Fr
AR 1181; SYD-EZE; 1830/1955; 340; Tu,Th,Sa

EZE-SYD showing as 15hr50min flying time!

Why do they have the 340 sitting on the ground in SYD for so long. Arriving into EZE at 1955 is too late for a lot of connections. Why not leave SYD at 1500 and get into EZE at 1630?

md
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:52 am

Quoting MilesDependent (Reply 5):
Why do they have the 340 sitting on the ground in SYD for so long.

Given AR's track record for punctuality it is probably wise to have some slack in the schedule.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:16 am

FJ tried CBR-NAN and the route was pulled rather quickly. I wish I could be on a committee to get paid to recommend a CBR-SIN link...do they actually seriously believe such a route could be viable or have they convinced themselves it could be truthful???
 
DavidByrne
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting MilesDependent (Reply 5):
AR 1180; EZE-SYD; 0830/1320; 340; Mo,We,Fr
AR 1181; SYD-EZE; 1830/1955; 340; Tu,Th,Sa

I can't seriously think that there will be feed from anywhere else in South America with those timings (and potentially nowhere in Argentina except BA) - they are making themselves entirely dependent on the Argentina-Australia market. The current schedule not only allows for NZ traffic but also allows connections elsewhere in South America. Very risky move, I'd have thought. I can only think it's driven by the need to reduce crewing and accommodation costs by having only a point-to-point service.

[later] Ooops - seems there is a horrible red-eye from both GIG and GRU to "connect" (four hour wait) at EZE for the SYD flight.

[Edited 2012-03-29 21:06:37]
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ADDICT4QF
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:19 am

vhebb,

> QF B747-400 VH-OJO had her last flight on FRI 30MAR12, doing the QF64 JNB-SYD run. It is now withdrawn from the fleet.

> QF B747-400 VH-OJB will be withdrawn from the fleet in just over a week.

[Edited 2012-03-30 21:15:12]
 
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EK413
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 9):

> QF B747-400 VH-OJO had her last flight on FRI 30MAR12, doing the QF64 JNB-SYD run. It is now withdrawn from the fleet.

> QF B747-400 VH-OJB will be withdrawn from the fleet in just over a week.

So sad to see what was once a strong fleet of 36 B744 aircraft rapidly swink and before we know it QF will only have 9 B744...

Certainly is fair to say these B744 aircraft have been revenue makers for QF over the past 20 odd years...

EK413
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eta unknown
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:22 am

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 9):
QF B747-400 VH-OJB will be withdrawn from the fleet in just over a week.

Good riddance. I flew BNE-LAX on that bird last year and it was a wreck inside- old seat covers, lighting issues, old lavatories...
 
ADDICT4QF
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:32 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 11):

Yes, these retirements, cabin upgrades and fleet renewal are well and truely overdue!

I just hope and wonder how much it will actually contribute to winning back some market share.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:41 am

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 12):
I just hope and wonder how much it will actually contribute to winning back some market share.

They will need to do a hell of a lot more to win back market share not just retire 744s.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:38 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 2):
in other QF news:

I heard that comming home from work on the radio on Friday night, didnt QF want to get rid of its stake in FJ like 18 months ago I think I am sure there was a thread about it on here.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:49 am

Flicking through Australian Avaition, the April issue in my lunch time on Friday, looks like Red Q is done and dusted, did he realy think that he was going to get that of the ground
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:26 am

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 15):
Flicking through Australian Avaition, the April issue in my lunch time on Friday, looks like Red Q is done and dusted, did he realy think that he was going to get that of the ground

We must read different sources. Mr. Joyce has said that Red Q is postponed, not dead, and I surely hope it happens.

mariner
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IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
We must read different sources. Mr. Joyce has said that Red Q is postponed, not dead, and I surely hope it happens.

Correct. It was reported to have been put on hold for 2-3 years.

Its bound to come up again at some point.
 
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EK413
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:55 am

Was curious has VH-OJB operated more cycles as opposed to QF's 1st B744 VH-OJA which is currently still active in the fleet...

EK413
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thegeek
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:04 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 17):
Correct. It was reported to have been put on hold for 2-3 years.

With that sort of time frame AJ needs to have a few runs on the board or he will be gone, and the new CEO won't want to run with a strategy which struggled to get off the ground.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:08 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 19):
With that sort of time frame AJ needs to have a few runs on the board or he will be gone, and the new CEO won't want to run with a strategy which struggled to get off the ground.

And thats the thing here, theres lots of other work to do now to make what they have work.

Don't expect QF expansion and dont be surprised when the various Jetstar brands take on more of the workload. Using their partner carriers will become ever more important.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:17 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 19):
With that sort of time frame AJ needs to have a few runs on the board or he will be gone, and the new CEO won't want to run with a strategy which struggled to get off the ground.

I understood that t was always a five year plan. It is an impeccable strategy - it changes geography for Qantas - but an enormously difficult thing to put into effect.

mariner
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Flyingsottsman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
We must read different sources. Mr. Joyce has said that Red Q is postponed, not dead, and I surely hope it happens.

I didnt get to read the full article but I am sure it said around the start of that story that Red Q is dead I will go back and have another look and glady say sorry to you and you were right if I read that wrong Mariner.  
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:36 pm

Could a plan like 738s or A320s and basing them out of say SIN or KUL and running them like a spoke system through out SE Asia like what Pan Am did from Heathrow, could that work for Qantas instead of creating another yet another airline for the QF group.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting thegeek (Reply 19):
With that sort of time frame AJ needs to have a few runs on the board or he will be gone,

You think he doesn't have runs on the board? I bet the Board disagrees with you!
Runs:
All the Jetstars
The Grounding, yes that was runs on the board, it did far more good than bad!
Cost cutting
Network realignment
RedQ (still to come)

All of which are good things for the bottom line.

Gemuser
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Flyingsottsman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 23):
Could a plan like 738s or A320s

I should have said "Could a plan like getting more 738s or A320s and basing them out of SIN or KUL".
 
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EK413
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 25):
I should have said "Could a plan like getting more 738s or A320s and basing them out of SIN or KUL".

That is the plan and it is called Red Q once when it takes off the ground operating a B787 fleet but for now the expansion of Jetstar brand in Asia is the focus point and reducing QF's cost's by concentrating on key routes while substituting aircraft on key routes which no longer require for example B744 aircraft...

EK413
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qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 23):
Could a plan like 738s or A320s and basing them out of say SIN or KUL and running them like a spoke system through out SE Asia like what Pan Am did from Heathrow, could that work for Qantas instead of creating another yet another airline for the QF group.

That's exactly what they are trying to do with Red Q. The problems are that:

1. Qantas cannot own a controlling stake in any airline based in most Asian countries (all the desirable ones anyway). This is why they are having numerous issues with JQ (especially in Vietnam).

2. Qantas needs to pick up traffic from the local market in order to make this a viable operation, so the idea was to create a hybrid of sorts, which satisfied the style of connecting Australians and to satisfy the style of local Asian travellers.

3. There are issues with the QF brand being used by an airline that QF doesn't own a controlling stake in. Jetconnect isn't an issue on this front, because it is a 100% QF owned subsidiary. But Problem 1 prevents QF from owning the controlling stake they need to use the QF brand for a foreign owned airline (that's my understanding anyway, happy to be corrected by others if I'm totally off here)...

4. There is nothing stopping QF basing their own aircraft and operations out of a hub like SIN where they have lots of traffic rights. The issue then is that the QF cost base carries over to the new operation, and would probably render it loss-making. Half the point of creating a foreign airline is to utilise foreign labour laws etc.

So, to get around these issues, QF wants to create a new company/brand, which it owns 49% of in partnership with a trustworthy ally who owns the other 51% to satisfy ownership laws (yet won't stray from QF's direction). The idea is that QF provides some of the capital and the leadership, while the other party provides the rest of the capital.

So really, Red Q is just QF operating a hub-spoke Asian network, connecting to (or operating) services to/from Australia and Europe.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 22):
I didnt get to read the full article but I am sure it said around the start of that story that Red Q is dead I will go back and have another look and glady say sorry to you and you were right if I read that wrong Mariner.


No need to say sorry, the magazine may well have said "Red Q is dead" - (although I thought it had a question mark after it) - but is the magazine right?

A lot of commentators rushed to that conclusion after Qantas pulled out of the talks with Malaysia and, as usual, very few listened to what Mr. Joyce actually said.

I no longer believe most of the stuff printed about Qantas, or especially Alan Joyce, by most of the Australian airline commentators, starting with Ben Sandilands at Crikey, who seems convinced that he can run the airline better than anyone actually doing it.

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airnewzealand
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:59 pm

In other news to let ya'll know,

SCL/DFW/BNE-LAX will now have the reconfigured 744. Next destination is

BNE-SIN (May)
SYD-LAX (QF107/108)

Cheers
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 27):
So, to get around these issues, QF wants to create a new company/brand, which it owns 49% of in partnership with a trustworthy ally who owns the other 51% to satisfy ownership laws (yet won't stray from QF's direction).

  

A parallel is Virgin Samoa, in which the Samoan government owns 49%, a commercial group, Aggie Grey Hotels, owns 2% (for a 51% majority) and Virgin Australia holds the remaining 49%.

Under a management agreement, Virgin Australia "runs" the airline, provides the aircraft and aircrews, chooses the routes and does all the scheduling, pricing and maintenance. The Samoans can ask for any specific new route, but have to guarantee it against losses.

Virgin Samoa appears to be simply Virgin Australia in a very slightly different frock, but it is legally a Samoan airline with full Samoan aviation rights.

mariner
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alangirvan
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting QF175 (Reply 1):
Canberra’s push for international flights in 2013 will step up this month with the establishment of a taskforce to coordinate our city’s efforts.

The taskforce will comprise members drawn from the business and tourism sectors to work with Canberra International Airport and the ACT Government.

Here we go again! The sad story of international flights for Canberra. I was at the airport on the day of the first flight by Air Pacific - a service that only lasted a few weeks. Then, there was the day the Emirates A340-500 did a demonstration at Canberra, and Tim Clark said there was no reason why Canberra should not fit into EK's network. Canberra has been trying for years to get services to NZ but they never happen.

Since Qantas is a preferred carrier for many Australian Government Departments if Qantas is not interested that will make it harder. It might be possible to have another go at getting leisure carriers, but would they be any great value to the people of Canberra? They might persuade an airline like Air Pacific to have another go at flights to Fiji, but Canberra people might soon notice rather lower fares available from Sydney (the much larger market), and they would drive to Sydney to save perhaps $100. Even if EK had a look at Canberra, they would hope to get access to Business Class travellers - could they wean them off Qantas?

Trans Tasman is one that might work with a joint operation. I do not know if Virgin is making a lot of progress winning business in Canberra - it would be better if it was a joint op between Qantas and AirNZ. Maybe an AirNZ operated service Monday to Friday which could bring Auckland based travellers in for meetings with the Australian Government -

AKL-CBR-WLG-CBR-AKL. It could operate, say, three times weekly to start. I would think A320s are a bit big for the size of the market. Is it worth it, when people are used to doing the transfer at SYD?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:47 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 18):
Was curious has VH-OJB operated more cycles as opposed to QF's 1st B744 VH-OJA which is currently still active in the fleet...

Funny enough, I flew out OJB and returned on OJA! However, OJA had just come back from Avalon heavy maintenance the month before- everything was nice and newish inside (new A380 carpet was the only change) and although the seat covers were still blue, they were, at least... clean!

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 14):
I heard that comming home from work on the radio on Friday night, didnt QF want to get rid of its stake in FJ like 18 months ago I think I am sure there was a thread about it on here.

Yes QF wants to ditch their FJ holding, but there's a problem. Really, there's only one interested party (the Fijian Govt.) and obviously they don't agree on the price. So QF is forced to either retain it's unwanted holding, or sell it off cheap to wipe their hands of it.
 
Milesdependent
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:21 am

Air Asia's first day into Sydney today. Today's flight is operated by 9M-XXG.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:33 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 24):
Quoting thegeek (Reply 19):
With that sort of time frame AJ needs to have a few runs on the board or he will be gone,

You think he doesn't have runs on the board? I bet the Board disagrees with you!
Runs:
All the Jetstars
The Grounding, yes that was runs on the board, it did far more good than bad!
Cost cutting
Network realignment
RedQ (still to come)

All of which are good things for the bottom line.

Gemuser

*All the Jetstars... most are losing money officially, Jetstar Oz is however...(that is if you believe the clever accounting).
*The Grounding... well lets see... it has cost close to $200m, is still subject to legal action, has resulted in a lot of frequent fliers jumping ship to other international carriers, and more locally to Virgin.... It has damaged workplace relations further, and done damage to the overall Qantas brand. Versus a claimed approx $40-50m (can't remember the exact number but its something like that) in costs from industrial action (a lot of those costs are of course made up from cancelling flights that were going to lose money anyway due to loads etc so it actually improves the balance sheet elsewhere).
*Cost cutting... yes always good to have a premium airline that looks and feels like a cheap costcut airline to its premium passengers...   Yes costs need to be cut/constrained, but there is a time and a place for that and the right areas to do this in... with high oil prices, this area is fuel burn... high oil prices have been with us for several years now and haven't been cheap for a decade so where are the 777s that would save 10-25% in terms of overall costs/fuel burn?
*Network realignment... cutting 2 LHR routes just before the peak holiday season/peak northern season/olympic games is genius!   not to mention if (and that is possibly a big if) the jetstar HKG goes ahead the feed that both the LHR flight and Jetstar HKG would both get from retaining that flight. BKK-LHR is less important, but 2 flights should not have been cut.
*RedQ... what a joke.
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:52 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
*All the Jetstars... most are losing money officially, Jetstar Oz is however...(that is if you believe the clever accounting).

Jetstar Asia is losing money? This article is dated 28 March 2012:

http://www.businessday.com.au/busine...r-jetstar-asia-20120327-1vwgc.html

"Jetstar Asia is the Australian airline's biggest operation outside Australia. The Singaporean company posted a pre-tax profit of $S18 million ($A14 million) for the year to June, its biggest profit since it began service in 2004."

mariner

[Edited 2012-04-01 17:55:50]
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koruman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
All the Jetstars... most are losing money officially, Jetstar Oz is however...(that is if you believe the clever accounting).

I don't for a second believe that any of the Jetstars is a profitable enterprise in terms of international travel.

In fact, the travails of Air Asia X, with a significantly lower cost-base, have just reinforced my belief that the load percentages required to make profits by flying (all-discount economy) or (discount economy + low-yield non-lie-flat business) can only be achieved on short (Ryanair/Air Asia) sectors and not longer ones (Jetstar International/Air Asia X).

There is a niche for LCC short-haul travel.

But Friday's "The Australian" reported that in Australia the LCC market share has contracted from 19% to 11%.

I can see Jetstar as a low-yield short-haul subsidiary of Qantas. But nothing else.

And I think that on routes like SYD-HNL, Jetstar may be doing okay but has cannibalised Qantas and almost certainly delivers lower profits than Qantas could with an appropriate product (which would be a A330 configured something like 16 Business Skybeds / 36 Premium Economy / 240 Economy).
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 36):
I don't for a second believe that any of the Jetstars is a profitable enterprise in terms of international travel.

I don't know what the caveat "in terms of international travel" means, but I know this from a year ago:

http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...le-brand-in-the-qantas-group-45968

"Qantas’ 1HFY2011 financial results, released on 17-Feb-2011, revealed that Jetstar is an increasingly valuable unit of the Qantas Group, with the LCC offshoot close to overtaking Qantas as the carrier's most profitable brand.

Jetstar reported a record underlying EBIT of AUD143 million (USD143 million) in the six months to 31-Dec-2010, marking an 8% year-on-year increase, on revenue of AUD1.3 billion (USD1.3 billion, +19%). This resulted in an EBIT margin of 10.6% with revenue growth aided by strong ancillary revenue generation of above AUD20 per passengers."


I really don't know why people are so resistant to this.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4402
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
*All the Jetstars... most are losing money officially, Jetstar Oz is however...(that is if you believe the clever accounting).

Mariner in reply 35 & 37 has pretty well answered this.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
*The Grounding... well lets see... it has cost close to $200m, is still subject to legal action, has resulted in a lot of frequent fliers jumping ship to other international carriers, and more locally to Virgin.... It has damaged workplace relations further, and done damage to the overall Qantas brand. Versus a claimed approx $40-50m (can't remember the exact number but its something like that) in costs from industrial action (a lot of those costs are of course made up from cancelling flights that were going to lose money anyway due to loads etc so it actually improves the balance sheet elsewhere).

Cash accounting only. In reality it brought stability, thereby creating a platform for recovery. The alternative was a slow bleeding to death. I believe that in the long run it will be seen as a very good management decision, by directors & shareholders, the only people who really count in this area.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
*Cost cutting..
... with high oil prices, this area is fuel burn... high oil prices have been with us for several years now and haven't been cheap for a decade so where are the 777s that would save 10-25% in terms of overall costs/fuel burn?

But would cost 25% to 45% more in capex and introduction costs. We don't really know, but I belive QF would have ordered B777 IF it was ACTUALLY going to reduce TOTAL costs.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
but 2 flights should not have been cut.

Why not? Obviously they were not making money or they wouldn't have been cut.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
*RedQ... what a joke

It's not a joke, but long term planning, something Australian business, in general, is sadly lacking in. Get back to me 5 to 10 years about RedQ

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
RyanairGuru
Posts: 6554
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:18 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
resulted in a lot of frequent fliers jumping ship to other international carriers, and more locally to Virgin

I would love it is someone could actually prove this. But of course they can't, because it's untrue. The most compelling "evidence" was along the lines of "my cousin's wife's step-father used to be QFFF Plat"...

Unfortunately I can't find the article I was looking for, but I remember reading in December that in the first month after the grounding 80% of their status flyers came back to Qantas.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
Network realignment... cutting 2 LHR routes just before the peak holiday season/peak northern season/olympic games is genius!

Yes it is, when they are loosing money... What do you expect, QF to keep flying loss making routes at a loss?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
not to mention if (and that is possibly a big if) the jetstar HKG goes ahead the feed that both the LHR flight and Jetstar HKG would both get from retaining that flight

JQ HQ is supposed to be a stand alone operation, not a feeder.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
(that is if you believe the clever accounting).

You couldn't resist could you? I'm still waiting on that evidence  
Quoting gemuser (Reply 38):
Get back to me 5 to 10 years about RedQ

The more I think about this the more I think the best option is a merger with SQ. Don't flame me!

The two have a begrudging respect for each other and actually have more to offer each other than would first meet the eye.

The benefits for QF are obvious and massive: cut all Europe flying (yes, even LHR) and get the Asia network they wanted. Keep HKG due to its strategic importance as one the most important financial centres in the world, along with SYD-PVG.

I've read many times that Australia is one of SQ's most profitable markets. Getting feed would make them a real force to be reckoned with. Yes they now have DJ, but that's just a glorified codeshare agreement and I'm sure there would be get out clauses in the contract. Among other things, with an effective Australian distribution network SilkAir could be viable to the likes of PHE a couple of times a week for mining related traffic.

The benefits of JQ to both should be apparent. Closing down Tiger and using SQ backing to expand JQ into a genuine pan-Asian carrier would make them a real force to be reckoned with,

If for no other reason for SQ involvement, once you cut the international baggage (excpet HKG, USA etc) you have a very profitable carrier which would be an attractive takeover target.

Finally, before anyone asks they would go OW. SQ basically don't have any agreements in place with any *A partners, and any alliance with CX and SQ (even if neither talk with anyone) would be pretty damn impressive!

And I'll stop dreaming now   
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
koruman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:54 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 36):
I don't for a second believe that any of the Jetstars is a profitable enterprise in terms of international travel
Quoting koruman (Reply 36):
In fact, the travails of Air Asia X, with a significantly lower cost-base, have just reinforced my belief that the load percentages required to make profits by flying (all-discount economy) or (discount economy + low-yield non-lie-flat business) can only be achieved on short (Ryanair/Air Asia) sectors and not longer ones (Jetstar International/Air Asia X).
Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
"Qantas’ 1HFY2011 financial results, released on 17-Feb-2011, revealed that Jetstar is an increasingly valuable unit of the Qantas Group, with the LCC offshoot close to overtaking Qantas as the carrier's most profitable brand.

Firstly, I'm not disputing that Jetstar can make money on all-economy 1 and 2 hour flights in eastern Australia.

But compare and contrast the links between SQ and Scoot relative to those between QF and Jetstar.

Scoot passengers cannot earn Singapore Airlines status or points even if they buy Business Class, whereas Jetstar ones emphatically can with Qantas.

The JQ Business Class product SYD-HNL is comparable to QF Premium Economy, but

a) JQ SYD-HNL in Business Class earns 140 Qantas Status Credits whereas
b) QF Premium Economy SYD-LAX is the same product but costs more, is 30% further yet only earns 90 Qantas Status Credits.

Similarly, a JQ Business Class fare SYD-HNL earns as many Qantas Status Credits as a Qantas Business Class fare on the same route, yet costs 1/3 the price.

In other words, Qantas Frequent Flyer is deliberately discriminating against Qantas passengers and in favour of Jetstar ones, as a tool to divert revenue from Qantas to Jetstar.

I find it hard to believe that such corporate deliberate self-harm is legal, but clearly it is.
 
qf002
Posts: 3125
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
A parallel is Virgin Samoa

Not an example I had though of, but it's absolutely perfect...

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 34):
Network realignment... cutting 2 LHR routes just before the peak holiday season/peak northern season/olympic games is genius!

What's the addiction with the Olympics?!? Do you honestly think that there are that many people going to London for the Olympics for QF to justify retaining these flights? The peak holiday season in the Northern Hemisphere is virtually irrelevant to QF -- they are not a player in the market out of the UK or out of HKG. They are a small carrier from a small country (which very few people are coming to because it's the winter) who offers a single daily flight.

Quoting koruman (Reply 36):
But Friday's "The Australian" reported that in Australia the LCC market share has contracted from 19% to 11%.

Over what period? VA's ongoing work to get themselves out of the LCC bracket might well account for that entire contraction. JQ hasn't been getting any smaller, and TT is still soldiering on.
 
thegeek
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 24):
You think he doesn't have runs on the board? I bet the Board disagrees with you!
Runs:
All the Jetstars
The Grounding, yes that was runs on the board, it did far more good than bad!
Cost cutting
Network realignment
RedQ (still to come)

I'll concede The Grounding as doing more good than harm. Losing 20% of frequent fliers would be bad though if the "retaining 80%" figure above is correct.

Not sure why Allan Joyce gets credit for forming JQ & 3K? Wasn't that Dixon? Might have run JQ reasonably well though. Perhaps that's what you meant?

Cost cutting. I don't think his initiatives have done very much for CASK. Largely, ASK has been reduced. In fact lower CASK planes (A380s) have been deferred and QF will need to struggle on with 744s or have a smaller network for longer than previously envisaged. I also have a hard time swallowing that a 50% cut in LHR flights was needed. Surely part of the reason why these flights were underperforming was the mediocre connections. I agree with removing BKK-LHR, but perhaps reorient to SIN? I have the same difficulty with the 100% cut SYD-SFO. Surely maintaining a presence until more appropriate equipment arrived would have been money well spent.

Network realignment - Not sure what you mean by this. The only thing which is separate to your other points is the DFW flight, which I agree is a real winner. Got to give some credit for that one.

RedQ - It's not known yet how this will work. It seems high risk.
 
koruman
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 42):
RedQ - It's not known yet how this will work. It seems high risk

How can you say that?

There are lots of successful niche premium international airlines out there doing great business and putting pressure on the obsolete national carriers.

There's EOS, and Maxjet, and L'Avion and Silverjet. You can't argue with success like that.

Really, there's no role for Qantas as a brand at all.

RedQ + Jetstar = Eos + Ted = Maxjet + Song.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:18 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 40):
Scoot passengers cannot earn Singapore Airlines status or points even if they buy Business Class, whereas Jetstar ones emphatically can with Qantas.

As you already know, I place little to no value on FF points/miles so I don't check the programs - and I'm the last person who ascribes value to 'em - but I'll take your word for it.

I'm searching desperately for some malign intent here, but I can't find one. For those who use FF's, I think it is a darn good reason to fly Jetstar instead of Scoot.

Quoting koruman (Reply 36):
But Friday's "The Australian" reported that in Australia the LCC market share has contracted from 19% to 11%.

I think that's a bit naughty, Koruman, because the headline to it explains exactly why it has happened.

It isn't that the LCC market has suddenly shriveled - it is that some volume of Virgin Australia's passengers are no longer counted as LCC.

I got quite terse about this last week when I was booking Virgin Australia domestic and found that I could no longer fly Premium Economy (the Tasman isn't domestic), it's either regular economy or business. So Virgin Australia has suddenly lost some of it's appeal to me.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
thegeek
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 43):
How can you say that?

What are you saying? That it isn't high risk to compete based in a different country with already strong competitors?

It seems that DJ disagree with you that there is no role for business class!
 
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mariner
Posts: 18403
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:22 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 43):
There's EOS, and Maxjet, and L'Avion and Silverjet. You can't argue with success like that.

None of the airlines you name were premium, full-service carriers - which Red Q is intended to be - although L'Avion was bought by Open Skies which is still flying.

mariner

[Edited 2012-04-01 21:36:57]
aeternum nauta
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:41 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 45):
What are you saying? That it isn't high risk to compete based in a different country with already strong competitors?

It seems that DJ disagree with you that there is no role for business class!

I was being ironic!

On the NZ Aviation Board I spent most of the last five years arguing that the soundest business model for an airline in this part of the world is,,,,,precisely what John Borghetti is doing at Virgin Australia.

A single brand with on-board products covering the broadest possible market range. An airline in which staff morale and staff-customer interactions are prioritised. A single brand which doesn't exclude significant parts of the market by being all-economy (or all-business). A single brand which develops the widest possible portfolio of point-to-point services, with long-haul via not more than one hub.

So Virgin can offer one-stop Brisbane-Manchester, but Qantas can only offer two-stop via both SIN and LHR.

My only criticism of Virgin's virtual international network is that it offers few Premium Economy options. Apart from that it's very sound.

I have relatives visiting from the UK who flew in on Qantas and who are flying out of Cairns back to LHR, with Cairns-Darwin-Singapore on Jetstar.

How unnecessary. Couldn't those flights have had Qantas as the operator, with Qantas standards? In fact, couldn't Qantas cooperate with its OneWorld partner to codeshare on Cathay Pacific's CNS-HKG flight? Apparently not.
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 44):
I think that's a bit naughty, Koruman, because the headline to it explains exactly why it has happened.

It isn't that the LCC market has suddenly shriveled - it is that some volume of Virgin Australia's passengers are no longer counted as LCC.

Yes, I was one of them on Friday, when at the last minute I had to fly OOL-SYD-OOL.

I flew out on a Jetstar max ticket, will get points but no included food, drink or entertainment.

I flew back on a similar Virgin product and got included IFE and food and drink.

So the reason those Virgin passengers no longer count as LCC passengers is because they aren't LCC passengers.
 
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mariner
Posts: 18403
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Australian Aviation Thread # 60

Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:51 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 48):
I flew back on a similar Virgin product and got included IFE and food and drink.

I'd love to know which class, because I wasn't offered it PER-MEL. The best I was offered was a quite expensive Flexi-fare (I'm paying for the goodies as on LCC) but which doesn't include any extra space unless I pay for it and even then it's a first come/first served basis.

I paid for it and then discovered that, at my age, even if it is available I may not be eligible - I will be "assessed" at the airport. Meanwhile, Virgin has my money for it.

Quoting koruman (Reply 48):
So the reason those Virgin passengers no longer count as LCC passengers is because they aren't LCC passengers

Exactly the point - at last.

mariner

[Edited 2012-04-01 21:56:35]
aeternum nauta

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