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readytotaxi
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UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:31 am

The new rise of APD, or tax the customer to death,kicks in today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17566683

Interesting that this will include private business jets for the first time.
Could the government not have delayed this till after the Olympic games or was it just to hard to say no
to all that extra cash.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
TupolevTu154
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
Could the government not have delayed this till after the Olympic games or was it just to hard to say no
to all that extra cash.

I somehow suspect the latter. There's far too much money to refuse!
 
dstc47
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:46 am

Welcome to Britain!

Not so sure about all the extra Olympic traffic, much evidence from other places suggests that many travellers are actually discouraged from travel by major events such as the Olympics, not willing to suffer crowds, high prices for hotels etc. The promotors and vested interests usually exaggerate likely visitor numbers wheas the likely losses are discounted.
 
by738
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:48 am

On the majority of euro short haul economy fliggts ex UK it accounts for £1 of a difference. Few will notice I expect.
 
SuperCaravelle
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:52 am

Quoting dstc47 (Reply 2):
Welcome to Britain!

Not so sure about all the extra Olympic traffic, much evidence from other places suggests that many travellers are actually discouraged from travel by major events such as the Olympics, not willing to suffer crowds, high prices for hotels etc. The promotors and vested interests usually exaggerate likely visitor numbers wheas the likely losses are discounted.

Exactly. More travelers to sports events, less other touristic activity. In fact, I would be happier with the latter as it is not a one-time event and I prefer people interested in the country than people interested in a sports events that happens to be in the country.
 
MAH4546
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:52 am

Others should simply do what I do: don't visit the UK for leisure. I haven't taken a non-business trip there since 2003, and I visit Europe often. I will not take my tourism money to countries that tax me with irrational, unair and disproportionately high taxes. And as the fools in the UK continue to raise the taxes, less people will visit. Their loss.
a.
 
Summa767
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
Others should simply do what I do: don't visit the UK for leisure

Whilst that I agree that the ADP charges are too steep, I am sure that people will not follow you. A $15 tax for those flying in from continental Europe or a $100 US for those from across the Atlantic will not be enough to put visitors from coming is their masses.
 
jrn216
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting by738 (Reply 3):
On the majority of euro short haul economy fliggts ex UK it accounts for £1 of a difference. Few will notice I expect.


That is quite true and it is only on long-haul that APD increases by £6/7/8 so it is not such a great increase. But it is the message it sends out to travellers. Inward tourism must be encouraged during a hard economic climate, yet putting additional burden on travellers can only stunt growth. APD is completely at odds with attempts to achieve tourism growth and contrary to the Government's own commitment towards tourism.

When you look at the figures and see how APD has increased since 2005 it is quite startling. All long-haul flights used to be £20; band D destinations are now £92. How is this supposed to attract tourists?
 
MAH4546
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
Whilst that I agree that the ADP charges are too steep, I am sure that people will not follow you. A $15 tax for those flying in from continental Europe or a $100 US for those from across the Atlantic will not be enough to put visitors from coming is their masses.

The tax is approximately $150 USD per person. Tell a family of four that $600 isn't a lot. And that's if you are in coach. The fools that run this tax decided that it should be disportionately higher for those who fly in a premium cabin. As I fly premium cabins for leisure, the taxes amount to closing in in $1,000+ for a family of four flying business clas. No thank you. I'll use that as spending money in Italy, instead.
a.
 
TonyBurr
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:26 pm

I love the UK, especially London, but rarely go there or stop there on trips to other places due to the ridiculously high taxes on travel. The taxes are ridiculous. They are not related to travel, but causing the traveler to support the goverment.

I miss the UK, but not the crazy taxes.
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
the taxes amount to closing in in $1,000+ for a family of four flying business class.

You have all the right in the world not to pay for the taxes as a matter of principle, but the economic point does not stand. A family of four flying long haul J could not care less about an extra $1,000 added to the trip budget (if they even care to have one).
 
rutankrd
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 10):
You have all the right in the world not to pay for the taxes as a matter of principle, but the economic point does not stand. A family of four flying long haul J could not care less about an extra $1,000 added to the trip budget (if they even care to have one).

What nonsense - If London is going to be $1000 more expensive than say Paris thats where you will go !

( Then try to get a few days in London via Eurostar !)
This IS increasingly happening
 
something
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
And as the fools in the UK continue to raise the taxes, less people will visit. Their loss.

Higher yields per passenger means less passengers are needed to generate the same profit. There are conclusive studies about the price elasticity of UK visitors and it's been found that the ADP will generate more money, than it'll cost in forgone revenues.

The APD has been in effect for much over a decade now and yet, flights out of the UK to virtually any destination outside of Europe have been the cheapest in all of Europe. Flights from the USA to Europe cost 60% more on average than flights in the other direction because Europe is worth more to US travellers, than the US is to Europeans.

London has always been an expensive city and people from all over the world will continue to flock there. If it's not you, there are 10 other people waiting in line to take your spot.

Flying today is as cheap as it's ever been. If there is one driving force behind increasing cost it's fuel. It's curious to me that people have no problems financing the shenanigans of Arab royalty, the regime in Iran, Hugo Chavez's comedy club and Somalian warlords - but as soon as a tax is imposed to fund humanitarian projects people cry foul.

''There is comfort in numbers'', they say. Look at the development of the price of air travel, look at inflation over the same period of time and you'll be quick to find out that your material wealth has increased substantially over the last 2 decades. I'm not a fan of the design of the APD, but I also know that it's not going to have the dramatic effects critics predict it will have. There is more to the story of people's spending habits.

Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
ltbewr
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:06 pm

Let us also not forget that in the past, citizens were willing to subsidise in taxes the creation and improvements in airports as well as airline security. Not they won't and beyond that, governments are desperate for additional tax revenues from those that don't vote there (foreign tourists), for activities with high pollution levels/energy use to level off or reduced them, as well as cover the exponential growth in the costs of ever increasing securty and construction.

If I am correct, many of the airports in the UK are operated by private or joint private-government corporations, so those private partners need to pay for overpaid executives and assure constant profits to shareholders. That adds to the fees as well. Then you have the growing fees from non-UK airports and pretty soon the fees are going to exceed most standard airfares (not of teaser fares of Ryanair - they already do) and discourage travel/tourism. And yes, I agree this is timed intentionally for the upcoming Olympics to make revenue from the attending suckers.
 
boilerla
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 10):
You have all the right in the world not to pay for the taxes as a matter of principle, but the economic point does not stand. A family of four flying long haul J could not care less about an extra $1,000 added to the trip budget (if they even care to have one).

Actually it can. I earn anywhere from 150k to 300k frequent flier miles per year. I'm single, but I know plenty of other people in the same situation that use their RDMs to take the family on a trip in J. If you had to choose between 14 hours in coach with 2 kids, or 14 hours in J, which would you prefer?

Last time I redeemed my miles, the taxes for the UK portion were going to be $500, on what was essentially a free ticket for me. I went to Switzerland instead.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:20 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
And as the fools in the UK continue to raise the taxes, less people will visit. Their loss.

  

Quoting by738 (Reply 3):
On the majority of euro short haul economy fliggts ex UK it accounts for £1 of a difference. Few will notice I expect.

On top of how many previous increases?

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
I am sure that people will not follow you. A $15 tax for those flying in from continental Europe or a $100 US for those from across the Atlantic will not be enough to put visitors from coming is their masses.

Every week airlines try, and fail, to raise fares by a few dollars, and most of those fare increases fail because either other airlines don't follow, or demand simply evaporates. This is the same scenario, except the airline doesn't get to keep the additional money, and instead of a meager $1-5 fare increase, this is big money.

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 10):
You have all the right in the world not to pay for the taxes as a matter of principle, but the economic point does not stand. A family of four flying long haul J could not care less about an extra $1,000 added to the trip budget (if they even care to have one).

If you think that airline pricing is so inelastic even in J that people don't notice an additional $1000, I have a ticket to sell you.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mikey72
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 10):
You have all the right in the world not to pay for the taxes as a matter of principle, but the economic point does not stand. A family of four flying long haul J could not care less about an extra $1,000 added to the trip budget (if they even care to have one).

Exactly. A person who flies premium with their family on holiday is hardly going to worry about $1000.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 11):
What nonsense - If London is going to be $1000 more expensive than say Paris thats where you will go !

No that's nonsense.

That's like saying ''even though I'm rich I'll stay at the Holiday Inn not the Ritz because it's less expensive''

Anyway, what if i've already taken my family to Paris or Rome etc and want them to see London ?

Somebody flying their family half way round the world in business class and staying in the Ritz aren't going to give a hoot about APD and the government knows it.

The UK (like the rest of Europe) is expensive for outsiders on holiday, everyone knows it.

[Edited 2012-04-01 09:38:31]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
Somebody flying their family half way round the world in business class and staying in the Ritz aren't going to give a hoot about APD and the government knows it.

I know plenty of people who fly business class to stay at the Ritz and are fed up with the APD--they simply don't bother going to the UK any more. You all are assuming that people who are wealthy enough to afford premium airfares and high end hotels got to where they are by 'not caring' about $1000 here and there. That is ludicrous. These people may be wealthy--they're not stupid.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
That's like saying ''even though I'm rich I'll stay at the Holiday Inn not the Ritz because it's less expensive''

No, because you get more for your money at the Ritz. You're not getting any thing more for the extra $1000 in APD. It's like staying at the Holiday Inn or staying there AND paying $1000 extra for the privilege of doing so. Who would agree to that other than non discretionary travelers?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mikey72
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
I know plenty of people who fly business class to stay at the Ritz and are fed up with the APD--they simply don't bother going to the UK any more. You all are assuming that people who are wealthy enough to afford premium airfares and high end hotels got to where they are by 'not caring' about $1000 here and there. That is ludicrous. These people may be wealthy--they're not stupid.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
No, because you get more for your money at the Ritz. You're not getting any thing more for the extra $1000 in APD. It's like staying at the Holiday Inn or staying there AND paying $1000 extra for the privilege of doing so. Who would agree to that other than non discretionary travelers?

Oh dear.

Look, i'm guessing by your comments that you've never parked your car in one of Terminal 5's car parks ?

The place is a petrol heads 'wet dream' !

Besides, your argument is ludicrous not mine.

Someone travelling to London (one of the business capitals of the world) to secure a multi-million pound business deal is 'not' going to worry about APD.

Heavens, I know people that drink glasses of wine that cost more than APD for a family of 4.

I'm not saying it's right but that's life.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 11):
What nonsense - If London is going to be $1000 more expensive than say Paris thats where you will go !
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):
Exactly. A person who flies premium with their family on holiday is hardly going to worry about $1000.

As mike72 put, if you pay anywhere from $12K to $16K on airfare alone plus something upwards of $500 a night on hotel for four, $1,000 is not going to be a deal breaker.

If you have a personal or political point to make, I respect it, but don't try to make me believe that a $20,000 to $30,000 family vacation is going to change because of an extra $1,000.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 14):
Last time I redeemed my miles, the taxes for the UK portion were going to be $500, on what was essentially a free ticket for me. I went to Switzerland instead.

Award fliers (especially those with enough miles to redeem J tickets for four) are not that many and are not representative of the influx of tourists to Britain overall.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
If you think that airline pricing is so inelastic even in J that people don't notice an additional $1000, I have a ticket to sell you.

That's not what I said. I am going to London in July in J and yes, I'm paying an awful lot in taxes on my ticket. It would have cost me less if I had bought a ticket to Paris. Hotels, transportation, food and most everything else would probably be cheaper in Paris. Then why am I not going to Paris? Because I want to go to London!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
You're not getting any thing more for the extra $1000 in APD

Yes, you are. You're getting a non-stop to where you wanna go.

[Edited 2012-04-01 10:24:46]
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
I know plenty of people who fly business class to stay at the Ritz and are fed up with the APD--they simply don't bother going to the UK any more.

I highly doubt that's true and strongly suspect it's a fabricated statement to try to prove your own argument.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:35 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 18):

Someone travelling to London (one of the business capitals of the world) to secure a multi-million pound business deal is 'not' going to worry about APD.

That's why I said...

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
other than non discretionary travelers
Quoting mikey72 (Reply 18):

Heavens, I know people that drink glasses of wine that cost more than APD for a family of 4.

That's not remotely similar--people want to buy that wine; they don't want to pay the APD.

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 19):
$1,000 is not going to be a deal breaker.

It may not be for some people, but it will have an effect. It's basic economics: raise the price of something and people will buy less of it. Moreover everyone is focused on the front cabin--it has the same effect in economy, where there is a lot more discretionary spending that will surely be pressured. Why do you suppose the entire Caribbean is panicking because of the APD--because they are worried more people from the UK will visit with tourism dollars? Not quite. Charter companies have pulled loads of longhaul flying because it's simply not viable with the government taking such a large chunk of the all-in fare.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 20):
I highly doubt that's true and strongly suspect it's a fabricated statement to try to prove your own argument.

You actually took the time to write that. Wow 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
I know plenty of people who fly business class to stay at the Ritz and are fed up with the APD--they simply don't bother going to the UK any more.

So, if they don't go to the UK anymore, by definition they do not fly biz to London and do not stay at the Ritz. I suspect shufflemoomin is right in assuming this point is not really true.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
It's like staying at the Holiday Inn or staying there AND paying $1000 extra for the privilege of doing so.

Not really, because a similar Holiday Inn elsewhere is probably cheaper than in London. You pay more for a similar hotel in London if that's where you want to go.

I guess we're mixing Economics and Politics here.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 22):
So, if they don't go to the UK anymore, by definition they do not fly biz to London and do not stay at the Ritz. I suspect shufflemoomin is right in assuming this point is not really true.

That makes zero sense. There are no biz seats to anywhere but the UK? I didn't know the Ritz was only in the UK either.

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 22):
Not really, because a similar Holiday Inn elsewhere is probably cheaper than in London. You pay more for a similar hotel in London if that's where you want to go.

It could be in the suburbs of Brighton--you're going to pay the same onerous tax no matter where you depart from in the UK--it is not tied to the location or quality of the carrier other than cabin and range band.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mikey72
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:16 pm

Look, in a nutshell (right or wrong) this is the way the government looks at it...

If you can afford to fly, sit in Club, sit in Economy, take your family to Barbados for 2 weeks etc...you can afford APD.

[Edited 2012-04-01 11:48:05]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
ikramerica
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:51 pm

My wife and I considered to go to London on award seats in J but didn't because of the fees. Stupid part is that we connected in London to ZRH F/J UA/LX and didn't have to pay the fees because London wasn't a destination. And we could have booked a legal connection staying overnight and strayed in London overnight without being charged the tax. Strange stuff.

We will go in the future, but combining it w Paris. We will fly into Paris and then later take the train to London and spend less time there, and less money, than we might otherwise. Because of the tax we will combine two trips rather than taking two at different times.

Of course that does use less fuel, but also hurts tourism.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
GDB
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:46 pm

Maybe UK airline CEO's, or Airport Operators, were NOT at those infamous £250,000 per head 'Dinner With The Prime Minister' shindigs.

'Big Finance' probably was, they don't provide 50% of the PM's party funds, via donation, for nothing you know.
But I don't remember the UK airline industry being responsible for capsizing the economy and requiring huge bailouts to prevent total meltdown. Mind you, neither does the Chancellor if you believe his (high pitched) public statements.

In maybe better news, it looks like, slowly, crab-like, they are realising the blatant NIMBY politics of no extra runways, is not a good idea.
Not 'Boris Island' hopefully - which is entirely about keeping in with his main electoral base in West/South West London suburbs.

If there IS a U-Turn, what will have been 'achieved' is depressingly familiar, years of delay to the inevitable for short term expediency.

Have to remove the Transport Secretary, her being the MP for well heeled Putney, what with her anti LHR stance, in an area where it's reasonable to assume that many residents take more than the average foreign holidays per year, as opposed to rather less prosperous places. Maybe it's all cruises they take. With their objections to air travel.
 
nzrich
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 24):
If you can afford to fly, sit in Club, sit in Economy, take your family to Barbados for 2 weeks etc...you can afford APD.

Yes that may be true BUT the APD could be the difference from choosing for a family to holiday in the UK or Europe especially for haul haul destinations like NZ or Australia . The UK is an expensive destination to holiday in already adding extra cost just makes other destinations look more attractive .
"Pride of the pacific"
 
pilot21
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:55 pm

All the arguments above seem to be directed at tourists and people who fly C class and can easily afford another £1K in taxes.
You are forgetting about the majority of UK based people on this site (and up and down the Country) who work hard, pay their taxes, pay council tax, road tax, stamp duty and when it comes to spending their hard earned money on a holiday after working hard all year and paying more then their fair share, they are hit with another tax to leave the Country.

ADP is just another way for the Govt to tax the hard working citizens of their Country - it is far too high, is a regressive tax and just another way of squeezing every penny out of people wallets.

The first party to stand for election with a promise to abolish this tax gets my vote

Pilot21
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
canyonblue17
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:02 pm

Will this have an impact on non-rev fees in and out of London. For example, I just bought a Zed Low EWR-LHR tkt and it was $315 roundtrip. Can I still use this tkt even though the taxes have gone up, or will I be required to pay an additional charge. Will the overall charge be even greater now?
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:46 pm

American posters always complain about taxes, nothing new. Its politics and doesn't have any bearing on inbound tourism to the UK.

Tourism to the UK is up and longhaul visitors is increasing more rapidly than shorthaul.
The major market that you would expect to be most affected by this, Australia, has just seen the biggest growth in inbound tourism out of all markets...

Other longhaul markets, VFR excluded, such as India, China, South America are all increasing.

In general the tourist arrivals in Britain is higher than ever and has continued to rise. Those assuming that higher APD equals less tourists thus have a difficult case.

The business arrivals took a big nosedive after the financial meltdown of 2008 but has for the last three years been climbing steadily but still not reaching the levels of 2007. The business market seems to follow the world economy.

For our US posters arguing political points. here are some facts.
US tourist arrivals have been declining in Britain for the last 20 years, ie before any APD was introduced.
If you look at figures we have seen a decline virtually every year since 1992 however the last two years have seen a small increase this at the time when the APD has increased to much higher levels. What we also can see is that arrivals by air has increased from the US the last two years while arrivals by tunnel and sea has decreased. Something making the point that its the APD that is the hinderance for inbound tourism rather moot...

Passenger surveys show the reason for the decline over the ;ast two decades to be affordability, fewer and fewer Americans can afford London and with the lows of the US dollar and continuous highs of the Euro/pound this isn't likely to change anytime soon.

official source
http://www.visitbritain.org/insights...orstatistics/latestdata/index.aspx

------------------

Personally I am ok with a small APD but believe its way to high in the UK. the original APD was ok but the changes thats occured over the last 5 years is nothing short of criminal.
I am however pleased that general aviation is included this time but would like to see airlines flying planes with higher emissions paying more thus pressuring airlines to use more efficient planes and lower emissions.
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:50 pm

On a personal note, I never fly via the UK to destinations not directly accesible from Ireland because of APD.

It is simply less stressful and cheaper to fly via another European point or via Dubai or Abu Dhabi.

Even airline staff travel has been priced out of travelling via UK airports!

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 28):
ADP is just another way for the Govt to tax the hard working citizens of their Country - it is far too high, is a regressive tax and just another way of squeezing every penny out of people wallets.

I am amazed people living in the UK (and I assume from your post that despite the Irish flag, you do indeed reside in the UK) have put up with this tax for so long.

Here, as you will probably know, when they introduced a flat 10 EURO fee on departures, there was an outcry, and it was cut to 3 euro.
 
radicaldudejom
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:55 pm

Every dollar or pound that a fare increases will result in less customers. It's simple economics. Anyone here who has ever run a business can tell you that. You can get 500 people to buy something at $10, but at $11 you might only get 490 and at $12 you might get 450. Everyone, EVERYONE, has a threshold of how much they will pay for something before they just move on and pick something else. I used to work at a bar that sold $3 pints. At happy hour they would go down to $2.50 and we'd sell almost twice as many. Everyone that bought a $2.50 pint could easily afford a $3 pints without batting an eye but the little fluctuation in the price made a difference in their desire to buy.

The trick is, of course, to raise the price just enough to where the extra money more than offsets the loss of customers. If you can sell 100 pints at $3 but can sell 99 pints at $3.25 then it's worth the raise in price. The extra $.25 per pint has resulted in an extra $24.75 while only losing $3 worth of business. If the same price rise resulted in only selling 90 pints, the extra profit of $22.50 would not cover the loss of the 10 unsold pints at $30.

Whether or not this extra tax will result in a net loss of money for the economy(when you factor in lost airline customers not being in the country to buy food, hotels, gifts) or a net gain is going to be interesting to see. I know of a few people who refuse to fly anywhere simply because the prices to keep their cars in the airport garage are too expensive. Everyone has a price and a threshold before they just say "forget it."
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something
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:01 pm

Quoting RadicalDudeJOM (Reply 32):
Every dollar or pound that a fare increases will result in less customers
Quoting RadicalDudeJOM (Reply 32):
a bar that sold $3 pints
Quoting RadicalDudeJOM (Reply 32):
At happy hour they would go down to $2.50 and we'd sell almost twice as many

Following your logic, you should have sold 17% more; not twice as many.

The calculatory example that you outline has been examined in great detail, and is refered to as price elasticity in economical terms.

What I just don't understand is why people think this is news. The APD is an environmentalist effort. That's sort of the aim.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
GDB
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:13 pm

I would accept APD, at these levels, if there was a proper commitment to infrastructure.
That's what rankles, getting shafted two ways.
But then a Government Cabinet full of millionaires, mostly from inherited wealth, might not get this.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 25):
My wife and I considered to go to London on award seats in J but didn't because of the fees.

I've heard this multiple times. Mileage awards exclude taxes, so while you think you may be getting a free trip b/c of miles, it ends up be 200,000 miles plus $1000 in taxes.

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 29):
Will this have an impact on non-rev fees in and out of London.

Yes.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 30):
Tourism to the UK is up and longhaul visitors is increasing more rapidly than shorthaul.

But what would have been w/o the APD? The UK, LHR, and Euro markets in general have all been freed up in the last couple decades so I'd assume traffic is growing in all three areas--what it would have been without onerous taxes is another question.

Quoting something (Reply 33):

What I just don't understand is why people think this is news

The taxes go up today.

Quoting something (Reply 33):
The APD is an environmentalist effort.

If you think it's environmental, I have a third runway at LHR to sell you.

Quoting GDB (Reply 34):
I would accept APD, at these levels, if there was a proper commitment to infrastructure.

{Checkmark}  checkmark   checkmark 

[Edited 2012-04-01 16:25:04]
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Viscount724
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
Whilst that I agree that the ADP charges are too steep, I am sure that people will not follow you. A $15 tax for those flying in from continental Europe or a $100 US for those from across the Atlantic will not be enough to put visitors from coming is their masses.

The tax is approximately $150 USD per person. Tell a family of four that $600 isn't a lot. And that's if you are in coach. The fools that run this tax decided that it should be disportionately higher for those who fly in a premium cabin. As I fly premium cabins for leisure, the taxes amount to closing in in $1,000+ for a family of four flying business clas. No thank you. I'll use that as spending money in Italy, instead.

I expect many people now fly to AMS/BRU/CDG etc. and buy a separate ticket to the U.K. on an LCC at the much lower intra-Europe APD charge (or take the Eurostar).

For travel originating in the U.K. you can avoid the longhaul APD when you connect somewhere else in Europe provided you stop over for at last 24 hours at the connecting point (or buy a separate ticket from the connecting point)..
 
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
it ends up be 200,000 miles plus $1000 in taxes.

Explain how it ends up as $500 per person in taxes? Judging by the 8% increase everyone is moaning about, then even if that's true, it was only about 40 bucks cheaper before. People are putting off vacations to another continent because they have to pay the cost of a meal at a restaurant more in cost?
 
MAH4546
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:59 pm

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 10):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
the taxes amount to closing in in $1,000+ for a family of four flying business class.

You have all the right in the world not to pay for the taxes as a matter of principle, but the economic point does not stand. A family of four flying long haul J could not care less about an extra $1,000 added to the trip budget (if they even care to have one).


I'm glad you think I could care less about $1,000. As somebody who flies long-haul J on vacation, I assure you I care about $1,000. Just because I can afford long-haul J for my family doesn't mean I'm okay giving an extra thousand in taxes. You should not be so judgmental. Most people who can afford long haul J can afford it because they are smart with their money and carefully watch how it's spent and not wasted.
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planesailing
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:38 am

Personally I have never found using s European hub to get out of the UK long haul to be any cheaper. In fact, when I was searching for southern Florida last year, European hubs were more expensive than flying from London and connecting in the USA. The difference therefore being a better margin for the European airlines in such circumstances.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 36):
I expect many people now fly to AMS/BRU/CDG etc. and buy a separate ticket to the U.K. on an LCC at the much lower intra-Europe APD charge (or take the Eurostar).

For travel originating in the U.K. you can avoid the longhaul APD when you connect somewhere else in Europe provided you stop over for at last 24 hours at the connecting point (or buy a separate ticket from the connecting point)..

You can do all that, however statistics shows very few people does.
You can look at the numbers and see how many that arrives by tunnel. That number has decreased for all non European passengers over the last three years.
Arrivals by air has increased during the same time.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ill bring out the facts one more time just in case someone lost it among all political rhetoric.

Tourism to the UK is up and longhaul visitors is increasing more rapidly than shorthaul.
The major market that you would expect to be most affected by this, Australia, has just seen the biggest growth in inbound tourism out of all markets...

Other longhaul markets, VFR excluded, such as India, China, South America are all increasing.

In general the tourist arrivals in Britain is higher than ever and has continued to rise. Those assuming that higher APD equals less tourists thus have a difficult case.

I would also be very interested to find out if posters really believe that:

A. A businessman with travel paid by a company voluntary adds a minimum of 3 hours of travel time each way to save the APD. I dont know where you lot work but thats sure not the way my company handles travels...
B. A family or couple from another continent thats off on a holiday to the UK that, in order to save the equivalant of a a hotel breakfast per person (the increase of APD) would choose to add a transfer at a busy European airport and loose a minimum of 6 hours time spent at their destination.
C. Heaps of Americans visiting their local travelagent shopping for a holiday to Europe thinking no I really dont want to pay APD tax so Ill pass on visiting Britain.

Personally I fail to see any of those scenarios happening.

And its not like most major hubs in Europe doesnt have APD or similar taxes on flights, they might not be as excessive as the British ones but they sure exist. Fancy connecting in Germany or perhaps Austria?

We might not like the APD, I think its to high, but to argue that its determinetal to Britain is to deliberately go against the evidence that exists. Even for US American tourists the figures shows it not to be the case.
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something
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 30):
Tourism to the UK is up and longhaul visitors is increasing more rapidly than shorthaul.

But what would have been w/o the APD? The UK, LHR, and Euro markets in general have all been freed up in the last couple decades so I'd assume traffic is growing in all three areas--what it would have been without onerous taxes is another question.

Yeah or imagine how rich the UK could be, if they were sitting on Saudi Arabian like oil reserves.

Quoting planesailing (Reply 39):

Personally I have never found using s European hub to get out of the UK long haul to be any cheaper. In fact, when I was searching for southern Florida last year, European hubs were more expensive than flying from London and connecting in the USA. The difference therefore being a better margin for the European airlines in such circumstances.

I booked tickets today LGW-SFB-LGW for £208 round trip.

Fortunately for those of us who don't trust their gut feeling, but prefer to make informed decisions, the future is not so bleak as many people would like to paint it.

[Edited 2012-04-01 18:29:58]
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Kent350787
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 40):
The major market that you would expect to be most affected by this, Australia, has just seen the biggest growth in inbound tourism out of all markets...

Probably because exchange rate movements means that Aussies can now afford to eat in the UK - it was 35p-AUD$1 when I first visited the UK and now 65p-AUD$1. But the $140 tax will probably influence decisions from hereon, especially the way it is being reported in our media. Also likely to hit QF, given its major focus on the UK in that part of the world.
 
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:19 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
. I've heard this multiple times. Mileage awards exclude taxes, so while you think you may be getting a free trip b/c of miles, it ends up be 200,000 miles plus $1000 in taxes.

Well LAX-LHR-ZRH was $29.03 in UK and US secuirty fees +67,500 miles. This was in F on UA and J on LX one way.

LAX-LHR in F on UA with miles is actually only $2.50, it's only leavin he country where thy can impose the duty. So I guess we could fly into LHR and then return via mainland Europe.
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par13del
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting planesailing (Reply 39):
Personally I have never found using s European hub to get out of the UK long haul to be any cheaper. In fact, when I was searching for southern Florida last year, European hubs were more expensive than flying from London and connecting in the USA.

Are you strictly talking about fares without the APD or saying that with the APD included it is still cheaper to fly from the UK?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 40):
A family or couple from another continent thats off on a holiday to the UK that, in order to save the equivalant of a a hotel breakfast per person (the increase of APD) would choose to add a transfer at a busy European airport and loose a minimum of 6 hours time spent at their destination.

People aren't paying just the increase in APD, they're paying the whole thing, which is more like 10 hotel breakfasts. If it was such a non-issue, why did they reduce it in Northern Ireland?

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 40):
The major market that you would expect to be most affected by this, Australia, has just seen the biggest growth in inbound tourism out of all markets...

Enormous amounts of competition have been introduced to Australia in the shape of EY/QR/EK.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 43):
LAX-LHR in F on UA with miles is actually only $2.50, it's only leavin he country where thy can impose the duty. So I guess we could fly into LHR and then return via mainland Europe.

What's the reverse?
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:06 am

Quoting RadicalDudeJOM (Reply 32):
You can get 500 people to buy something at $10, but at $11 you might only get 490 and at $12 you might get 450. Everyone, EVERYONE, has a threshold of how much they will pay for something before they just move on and pick something else. I used to work at a bar that sold $3 pints. At happy hour they would go down to $2.50 and we'd sell almost twice as many. Everyone that bought a $2.50 pint could easily afford a $3 pints without batting an eye but the little fluctuation in the price made a difference in their desire to buy.

This is the best example. People like to feel like they are getting a bargain.


The example of an increase too far is my home state of California. The state just raised taxes. Look at the 2012 tax revenues for California. With a tax increase, the revenues are down!   Why? It was one tax increase too many to be globally competitive. It wasn't even that bad of an increase. It was just too much. Business is far more mobile in 2012 than 2002.

Quoting something (Reply 33):
The calculatory example that you outline has been examined in great detail, and is refered to as price elasticity in economical terms.

A truly elastic market has 10X the demand for every 50% drop in price. (e.g., at 25% of the price, there should be 100X the demand). It is a market where the dollars do not remain constant but instead rise quickly with discounting.

Now the cost of a trip to London is not just the airfare. But I know a few people who have dropped the UK from their European itineraries. Would they have anyway? I'm not sure.

Quoting GDB (Reply 34):
I would accept APD, at these levels, if there was a proper commitment to infrastructure.

There I agree with you! It could be rail or roads to the airports. Ideally runways...

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usflyer msp
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:36 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
Others should simply do what I do: don't visit the UK for leisure. I haven't taken a non-business trip there since 2003, and I visit Europe often. I will not take my tourism money to countries that tax me with irrational, unair and disproportionately high taxes. And as the fools in the UK continue to raise the taxes, less people will visit. Their loss.

I do the same. I love London but I haven't been there since 2004 for this reason. There are plenty of other places that are much better values than the UK and the ADP just seals the deal.
 
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:14 am

I think you guys are forgetting that there is more to the UK than London. It is not London that is going to suffer, but rather the regions. It is hard enough to attract visitors to the regions as it is, but with rising APD it makes it even harder.

The biggest impact is not so much on attracting passengers on existing flights, but attracting new flights. Launching a new route is always a big risk, but if passengers are going to face a tax of £15 on flights to the UK, then that is going to make it even harder to attract passengers, and therefore a bigger risk to the airline in launching the route. Instead they will fly somewhere else.

BAA Scotland have been quite vocal on this in recent months, as they are struggling to attract new airlines, with many of them stating the reason not to start flights as being due to APD.

Quote:
A study commissioned by BAA last year found that further increases on APD could cost Scotland's airports around 1.2 million passengers over three years, at a financial cost of £77m in lost tourism revenue.

Managing directors of the three airports, which collectively handles more than 19 million passengers, have written a joint letter to the Chancellor.

It warns: "APD levels in the UK are the highest in the world, and rising.

"With the industry in Britain bracing itself for further rises to this already disproportionate tax, our competitors in Europe – where many governments have reduced or removed passenger duty entirely – continue to enjoy a competitive edge over UK airports.

"In Scotland, we have particular concerns about our future ability to attract new airlines in what is an intensely competitive global market.

"There is a risk that airlines looking to serve new markets will choose other European countries at the expense of Scotland. This in turn will have a significant impact on employment, business competitiveness and inbound tourism.”


Passengers on flights to London may be prepared to pay an extra £15/£150, but those in the regions will not, and airlines considering launching flights to the UK may well be put off doing so.
 
gkirk
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RE: UK Air Passenger Duty Rises By 8% Starting Today.

Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:27 am

Perhaps the best idea would be just to fully tax flights from the major airports i.e. the London Airports and Manchester, with all other regional airports paying substantial decrease in APD. This will be very beneficial for airports such as EDI, GLA, BHX, BRS, EMA and NCL.

After all, not everyone in the UK gets paid the over inflated wages that they see in London.
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