genybustrvlr
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United Cross-Fleeting

Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:42 pm

Recently I've observed an increase in PMUA/PMCO cross-fleeting on domestic flights. At this point, it's just one or two flights a day in the schedule for busy routes. A few questions:

1) What's the rationale behind the current, limited cross-fleeting? Matching aircraft strengths to particular missions? Exploiting efficiencies in crew scheduling? Cross-training? Getting Y+ rolled out to CO customers faster? Some other reason or combination of these?

2) Specific to UA's domestic network and aircraft configuration, what longer term aircraft shifts do you expect to see as United optimizes its combined operation over the next 1-2 years?

3) Do you expect to see specific fleet types concentrated at certain hubs? If so, what do you expect to see an why? If not, what are the pros and cons for UA having a diverse aircraft mix at each hub?

4) How, if at all, are contract issues limiting UA's ability to optimize efficiency in its fleet assignments?

Thanks for your responses.
 
ordbosewr
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:58 pm

Two other threads on the topic:

Interesting UA EWR Crossfleeting Changes For May (by TOMMY767 Feb 14 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Pm United Using 320s Our Of EWR (by richiemo Apr 2 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Yes, many changes happening. MANY more to come.
 
genybustrvlr
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:14 pm

Correct, one topic is closed and the other is specific to EWR and the A320.
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:46 pm

Moderators: Don't close this thread! The original question is completely different than the other 2 topics. See original posts, these questions have not been addressed and I have followed the other 2 threads closely and would like to know myself.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:07 pm

Something interesting.

On the weekend of April 21st and 22nd, I've scheduled a mileage junket to run ORD-SNA-IAH on one day -- and then the reverse (IAH-SNA-ORD) the next day. In both cases, the aircraft are one-stop 320s which change their flight numbers at Orange County. However, I assume the same crew will remain on each plane ORD-SNA-IAH and then IAH-SNA-ORD the next day.

Does anyone know?
 
drerx7
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:28 am

I'm scheduled on Monday 4/16 on UA230 a PMUA 757 LGA-IAH.

To answer the OP's question, it looks like aircraft are being shuffled to right size and match up the aircraft operationally to the hubs. DEN, IAD, and ORD are getting lots of CO 737s while IAH/EWR/CLE are getting Airbus and 757s. In the other thread someone is saying the rumor is that IAH-NRT will see the 744 and IAH-DEN is getting weekend 763 for JUN.
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jetmatt777
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:50 am

This summer TUL-DEN goes to 1 738, from a 320.
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FSDan
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting genybustrvlr (Thread starter):
3) Do you expect to see specific fleet types concentrated at certain hubs? If so, what do you expect to see an why? If not, what are the pros and cons for UA having a diverse aircraft mix at each hub?

Hard to tell. It didn't really happen with DL. Most hubs have a mix of 319/320, M88/M90, and 738s as far as mid-sized aircraft go. No one hub is really dominated by anything except for ATL, which still has an extremely heavy concentration of M88s and 757s despite getting some 319/320s.

I'm guessing that UA could be similar.
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platinumfoota
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting genybustrvlr (Thread starter):
3) Do you expect to see specific fleet types concentrated at certain hubs? If so, what do you expect to see an why? If not, what are the pros and cons for UA having a diverse aircraft mix at each hub?

LAX should be seeing alot more 737's replacing the Airbus 320/319 which from my understaning are goint to ORD and IAH. You can now see guppies on T7.
Never forget United 93
 
JHCRJ700
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:51 am

I saw a UA738 on approach to BWI the other day around the time the UA west coast flights come in the morning. I was taken back for a second and then realized it must have been cross fleeting.
RUSH
 
penguins
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:55 am

What exactly is cross fleeting? Is it where different hubs get different manufacturers of aircraft instead of one brand?
 
CONTACREW
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 10):
What exactly is cross fleeting? Is it where different hubs get different manufacturers of aircraft instead of one brand?

Its where one airlines aircraft operates routes from the other airline for example, EWR-LAX may have a sUA 757 on it, while IAD-LAX will have an sCO 737 on it or vice versa.
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penguins
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:43 am

Thanks for the clarification. I assume this only happens in a time of merger and not with alliance partners.
 
danwoodman00
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:01 am

In SEA there seems to be "open blending" of ac for the various routes. Flights to SFO are run on 757, 737, and A320 now (I've flown all three in the past month or so), as are, I believe, SEA-EWR. Most of the A320s and 737 are in the most recent post-merger livery, with a few "blue tulip" A320s and 757s running to ORD and DEN. All of the 738s I've seen in the past two months have been post-merger livery, United logo plus "Continental" tail. The 772 to NRT is also new livery, tho not having flown it yet, I don't know if the cabin upgrade has arrived or not. At this point, I think the only UA planes not used in SEA are the 747 & 767.
 
CONTACREW
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting danwoodman00 (Reply 13):
In SEA there seems to be "open blending" of ac for the various routes. Flights to SFO are run on 757, 737, and A320 now (I've flown all three in the past month or so), as are, I believe, SEA-EWR. Most of the A320s and 737 are in the most recent post-merger livery, with a few "blue tulip" A320s and 757s running to ORD and DEN. All of the 738s I've seen in the past two months have been post-merger livery, United logo plus "Continental" tail. The 772 to NRT is also new livery, tho not having flown it yet, I don't know if the cabin upgrade has arrived or not. At this point, I think the only UA planes not used in SEA are the 747 & 767.

It seems as though lately the NRT-SEA flight has been using the IPTE 777 which is nice for those travelers. Also sCO aircraft are operating some sUA routes, and some sUA aircraft are operating some sCO routes. Come summer and into the fall there will be alot more cross fleeting going on. Also today 4/7, UA1681 EWR-SEA will be flown using an sCO 764, and thus the flight on sunday 4/8 UA1580 SEA-EWR will be flown with a 764 as well.
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EWRkid1990
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:24 am

So have 737 crews been reassigned to bases in ORD/DEN/IAD/LAX/SFO?
 
Max Q
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting EWRkid1990 (Reply 15):
So have 737 crews been reassigned to bases in ORD/DEN/IAD/LAX/SFO?

CO opened their own 737 base in LAX.



Apart from that the answer is no, not yet.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
jporterfi
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:20 am

Pardon my ignorance, but what do PMCO and PMUA stand for? I know it has something to do with United Airlines and Continental Airlines, but the PM part confuses me.
 
Max Q
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:25 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 17):


Pardon my ignorance, but what do PMCO and PMUA stand for? I know it has something to do with United Airlines and Continental Airlines, but the PM part confuses me.




Pre merger Continental and United
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Vctony
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:29 am

To answer your question, PM = "pre merger"
 
B747forever
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:30 am

I wonder when UA will put widebodies on EWR-LAX.

Isnt EWR-SFO getting a 763?
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BlueF9A320
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:02 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
Quoting jporterfi (Reply 17):


Pardon my ignorance, but what do PMCO and PMUA stand for? I know it has something to do with United Airlines and Continental Airlines, but the PM part confuses me.




Pre merger Continental and United

To continue with probably blatantly obvious questions, but what does the 's' in sCO and sUA mean?
Audentes Fortuna Juvat...
 
AeroWesty
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:33 am

Quoting BlueF9A320 (Reply 21):
what does the 's' in sCO and sUA mean?

"Subsidiary" (of United Continental Holdings, Inc.).
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yeogeo
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 17):
Pardon my ignorance, but what do PMCO and PMUA stand for?
Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
Pre merger Continental and United

Yes, but I've wondered if some posters meant "post-merger" at times.   
Never considered it a particularly successful abbreviation. Sometimes, to be clear, things just need to be written out.

yeo
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kgaiflyer
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:37 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
what does the 's' in sCO and sUA mean?
"Subsidiary" (of United Continental Holdings, Inc.).

Nice to know. I thought it was a typo. Makes sense (sort of).

No doubt made up by some really cool business guru  
 
laca773
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 20):
I wonder when UA will put widebodies on EWR-LAX.

Isnt EWR-SFO getting a 763?

I think we might eventually see a 763 on EWR-LAX as a swap. I don't think this will be a regularly scheduled one in this market (though it would make sense because of the demand, especially first thing in the morning going eastbound like they have on LAX-IAD and evening westbound) because the majority of the 76s are going to be flying transatlantic and there's not much time to do turns for better utilization. There will be a possibility we'll see them on SFO-EWR-SFO because of the size of the hubs.
 
danwoodman00
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:41 pm

ContactCrew - SWEET! Thank for the info. I fly SEA-EWR quite a bit, and always enjoyed twin-aisle more than single-aisle. I'm surprised that its a -400 -- big! -- but will be happy to fly it. Thanks for sharing.
 
BlueF9A320
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
"Subsidiary" (of United Continental Holdings, Inc.).

Thanks, I couldn't fathom what it stood for.
Audentes Fortuna Juvat...
 
drerx7
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 25):
There will be a possibility we'll see them on SFO-EWR-SFO because of the size of the hubs.
Quoting B747forever (Reply 20):
Isnt EWR-SFO getting a 763?

Yes. A daily 763 is going on EWR-SFO-EWR.
The current pdf timetable has all the changes for April from united.com
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usflyer msp
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:17 pm

I have a DEN-LAX flight in May that is operated by a PMCO 738.
 
highflier92660
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:46 pm

Since there are quite a few CLE followers on anet I've noticed that the CLE-LAX and CLE-SFO routes have abruptly become A320 and A319 routes. These have been 738 and 739 routes with Continental for quite a while and 737-300 Classic routes before that. Why the sudden change to Airbus with the merged airlines?
 
tommy767
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:53 pm

I'll be flying EWR-MIA on a PMUA 757 on 4/22

I drove past EWR yesterday and saw a few PMUA 'True Blue' at Terminal C. Nice to see.

Quoting genybustrvlr (Thread starter):
1) What's the rationale behind the current, limited cross-fleeting? Matching aircraft strengths to particular missions? Exploiting efficiencies in crew scheduling? Cross-training? Getting Y+ rolled out to CO customers faster? Some other reason or combination of these?

Rationale seems that PMUA aircraft fly to the CO hubs to routes that were already a PMUA station before the merger.

So from EWR throughout the spring and summer you'll see A320s and 757s to BOS/MIA/MCO/TPA/CLE/IAH/DFW/ORD/DEN/SEA/LAS/LAX/PHX/SNA/SAN etc. Check the skeds out for yourself, its fun! Notice that all of these destinations were PMUA stations that saw mainline pre-merger. Probably why you won't see at this time a PMUA 757 on route like EWR-FLL or EWR-RSW because they weren't mainline stations before the merger.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 20):
I wonder when UA will put widebodies on EWR-LAX.

Isnt EWR-SFO getting a 763?

SFO-EWR-SFO will be getting a 763. At a certain point in May/June most of the frequencies on EWR-LAX will become PMUA 757. Like we're talking 4-5 a day. This is pretty significant.

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 30):

CLE will also see PMUA 757s at various times to MCO, TPA, LAX, SFO, SEA etc.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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ERJ170
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:00 am

Well, my question is will United add RDU-DEN ever again? Or SFO? Some fill in would be nice....
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FSDan
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:14 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 32):
Well, my question is will United add RDU-DEN ever again?

I doubt it. WN is already on that route and in DEN UA has been retreating from WN if anything.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 32):
Or SFO?

I think this would be a good route for UA to try. Surely there's enough demand for a daily A319, what with all the tech companies on both ends...
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Max Q
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:16 am

Quoting yeogeo (Reply 23):
Never considered it a particularly successful abbreviation. Sometimes, to be clear, things just need to be written out.

I couldn't agree more, abbreviations often only mean something to the writer, especially here where discussions of destinations often use only the three letter airport code.


Often this is meaningless to many of us, is it that difficult to spell out the whole name ?!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
laca773
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:39 am

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 31):

SFO-EWR-SFO will be getting a 763. At a certain point in May/June most of the frequencies on EWR-LAX will become PMUA 757. Like we're talking 4-5 a day. This is pretty significant.

That definitely is significant considering it's a transcon flight, and if they are going to run 4-5 PM 757s, are the PMCO 75Ws being withdrawn from this market? The PMCO 75Ws are great on the flights CO used them on as they would connect to their EU flights allowing those in J to travel Biz to have a consistent product all the way thru to their final destination.
Is the assumption that they are doing this so they can place the 739ERs else where so they can have a slight capacity increase?
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:54 am

Going forward, if I had to make any cross-fleeting predictions I would guess that we could see more 737s in LAX and SFO for the Hawaii flights. Also aren't the 737s more competent than the A320s for transcons?

The opposite would be to see more 320s in EWR and IAH, their smaller F cabin might make them better suited to Florida and Caribbean flying.
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tommy767
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 35):

More F seats (24)-- this puts them in line with the JFK PS reconfigs which will eventually be 26 J.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 36):
Also aren't the 737s more competent than the A320s for transcons?

Yes. For instance LAX-MCO will be a 738 this summer.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
laca773
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 37):
More F seats (24)-- this puts them in line with the JFK PS reconfigs which will eventually be 26 J.

This does make sense, but what I'm talking about is the PMCO 75Ws they in which they have 2 in the morning, on average, with the BizFirst configuration.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 36):
Also aren't the 737s more competent than the A320s for transcons?

I have no clue what in h*ll what you mean by "more competent."

AS 739As had difficulty doing IAD-SEA at MTOW. But VX's A319s do BOS-SFO every day of the week.

Can you be more clear what you mean?
 
N62NA
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 39):
I have no clue what in h*ll what you mean by "more competent."

It's not that difficult to figure out... in fact, I didn't need to figure out what he meant at all.

"More competent" is a way of saying "better able to do the transcons in all weather, especially during the winter when there are strong winds aloft which might force an A320 fuel stop on the westbounds."
 
tommy767
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 38):

Checking the summer skeds, they tend to vary a bit and believe it or not they just keep changing so you can't rely on anything.

On 6/19 EWR-LAX I'm seeing only 1 PMCO 757 (odd) but 4 PMUA 757 and 4 738. No 753 or 739.

To me (a non elite) having a PMUA 757 on EWR-LAX is really good. This increases the possibility to upgrade to F at the kiosk is greater, E +, and Channel 9. They have me sold.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 39):

I have no clue what in h*ll what you mean by "more competent."

A320s can and will divert on transcons during the winter if the winds call for it. The A319 and 738, not as much.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 40):
It's not that difficult to figure out...

In fact, readers should not have to "figure it out" if the comment is well stated.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 41):
A320s can and will divert on transcons during the winter if the winds call for it

So I've heard -- mostly from those who have never been on such a flight.

In fact, even though I did 129 segments on UA (and several A321 segments on USAirways) last year, I myself have never experienced such a flight -- nor in the year before that.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 35):
That definitely is significant considering it's a transcon flight, and if they are going to run 4-5 PM 757s, are the PMCO 75Ws being withdrawn from this market? The PMCO 75Ws are great on the flights CO used them on as they would connect to their EU flights allowing those in J to travel Biz to have a consistent product all the way thru to their final destination.
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 37):
Quoting laca773 (Reply 35):

More F seats (24)-- this puts them in line with the JFK PS reconfigs which will eventually be 26 J.

It appeared in previous schedules that they moving toward lie flats on many LAX-EWR flights. I thought it maybe to offer something closer to the ps service from JFK. When the ps birds get lie flats and maybe more PMCO 752s come off some of the TATL flying, providing lie flats on EWR-LAX/SFO might be a good idea to match premium ps services. However, there maybe a shortage of F/Lie flats seats with only 16 per aircraft.

Looking at the Thursday schedule from EWR to LAX and SFO, there are 9 flights EWR-LAX with 180 F seats and 1382 Y seats. If PMCO 752s were put exclusively on the route, 9 flights would offer 144 F/lie flats and 1377 Y. thus a shortage of 36 F seats vs. the Summer sked. EWR-SFO (11 flights) offers 234 F and 1746 Y. Converting to PMCO 752s would offer 176F and 1683Y. 12 would provide 192F and 1836Y.

Of course, placing PMCO 752s exclusively on EWR-LAX/SFO would take roughly 20 units, nearly half of the 41 aircraft. This could be possible as now many PMUA 752s could be utilized on current PMCO752 routes like EWR-Florida. Maybe someday in the future when the PMCO 752s age a bit more and need more maintenance on a regular basis.
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N62NA
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 42):
In fact, readers should not have to "figure it out" if the comment is well stated.

It was well stated. You just got peeved for some reason at his choice of words and chose to lash out at him, even though in your next paragraph you demonstrated that you actually did know what he meant.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 42):
So I've heard -- mostly from those who have never been on such a flight.

One doesn't have to actually fly on a particular flight and experience an unscheduled fuel stop to know that an unscheduled fuel stop was taken by a particular flight. There's a cool site called: http://flightaware.com that you should check out.  
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 44):
It was well stated.

I'm an English teacher (among other things) so no, not really.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 44):
You just got peeved for some reason at his choice of words and chose to lash out at him

Geez, everyone is so sensitive.  
Quoting N62NA (Reply 44):
There's a cool site called: http://flightaware.com that you should check out.

Thanks - I'm a premium member of Flightaware  

That's probably why I take umbrage to painting a broad swath with no cited cases.


But enough of this. Let's get back to the topic.

[Edited 2012-04-08 11:39:30]
 
drerx7
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 45):
hanks - I'm a premium member of Flightaware  

That's probably why I take umbrage to painting a broad swath and no cited cases.

But let's get back to the topic.

Well, the 737s must be better operationally matched if they are starting to take over a large amount of the transcon flying for UA. Granted, there are a lot of other variables at play - greater availability of 737s, fuel burn below 1000miles with the Airbus, and countless other parameters that I am in no way qualified to answer definitively on.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 46):
Well, the 737s must be better operationally matched if they are starting to take over a large amount of the transcon flying for UA. Granted, there are a lot of other variables at play - greater availability of 737s, fuel burn below 1000miles with the Airbus, and countless other parameters

Now that's a good answer.

Thank you.
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting BlueF9A320 (Reply 27):
Thanks, I couldn't fathom what it stood for

The PM thing is a airliners abbreviation, the s thing is what united employees use to refer to one carrier or the other.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 33):
I doubt it. WN is already on that route and in DEN UA has been retreating from WN if anything.

WN pulled it too I believe (could be wrong but that's what I thought I read on a report)

-m

  
 
tommy767
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RE: United Cross-Fleeting

Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 43):
I thought it maybe to offer something closer to the ps service from JFK. When the ps birds get lie flats and maybe more PMCO 752s come off some of the TATL flying, providing lie flats on EWR-LAX/SFO might be a good idea to match premium ps services.

Except the thing is it seems they are pretty fixed on flying the PMUA 757 from EWR to LAX this summer. This is brand new though, only noticed this change within the last few weeks.

I should note, apparently one of the EWR-ORD flights will be on a PMCO 757.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA