JAL
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No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:55 pm

Why is there no AA services to Hong Kong? Not only is it an important aviation hub but it is also an important OneWorld hub.
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jfk777
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:15 pm

AA has not had the airplanes to fly to Hong Kong. Their new 777-300ER should allow AA to fly to HKG from DFW, ORD or LAX.
 
G500
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:32 pm

this has been talked about many times.

LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay,...DFW might not have the O&D traffiic to sustain that flight, so that leaves ORD..
 
SCL767
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
so that leaves ORD

Cathay Pacific operates HKG-ORD daily.
 
WROORD
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:38 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay,...DFW might not have the O&D traffiic to sustain that flight, so that leaves ORD..

Cathay flies daily to ORD and the flight is codeshared with AA. AA is also using their agreements with JL to connect through NRT to HKG and other points in Asia.
 
skipness1E
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:04 pm

American's network east and west is pretty tiny, I was astonished how little they fly on their own metal.
 
n92r03
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:35 am

AA code shares with CX out of JFK I think 4x daily as well. I think there are issues with the pilot union if AA was ever to try HKG-DFW.
 
mhkansan
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting n92r03 (Reply 6):
. I think there are issues with the pilot union if AA was ever to try HKG-DFW.

Really? What kinds? Have these been resolved with the BK process? I know there was just recently some announcement on long haul flying.
 
MarcoPoloWorld
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay

As are SFO (2x daily) and ORD (1x daily)

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
American's network east and west is pretty tiny, I was astonished how little they fly on their own metal.

It is definitely underwhelming. They have, what, one transpacific route? But I guess it is perhaps better to let a 5-star partner do that work rather than on AA's own 3-star outfit.
 
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Polot
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:16 am

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 7):
Really? What kinds? Have these been resolved with the BK process? I know there was just recently some announcement on long haul flying.

AA needs to negotiate with pilot's union's to fly routes over a certain block time, I think it is over 16 hours but I am not exactly sure, as they are not allowed under the contract. It is what killed AA's DFW-PEK proposal a few years back and I am sure is something they will address during their bankruptcy proceedings.
 
flymia
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 8):
It is definitely underwhelming. They have, what, one transpacific route? But I guess it is perhaps better to let a 5-star partner do that work rather than on AA's own 3-star outfit.

With the amounts of destinations in Asia and in Europe it is a bit underwhelming where they fly with their own metal. But with Europe they have a very large operation in LHR and they of course have a huge network in the Caribbean and Latin America.

And Asia with their own metal is: NRT, PVG, PEK and HND.
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hz747300
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:21 am

I don't think there is a need for it. CX has JFK, ORD, and LAX, covered. I have transitted through LAX and JFK, on connecting AA flights, and it was relatively seemless. On the flip side, many of the flights leaving Hong Kong on CX carry an AA flight number, especially regionally. One flight, seemed to have the whole OneWorld flight designation I recall, AA, BA, and Finnair.

All that said, they may want a token flight a with a 77W to Hong Kong, but I would again ask why, they should send it somewhere else which isn't covered. It can't be cheap to open a station when you are bankrupt.

After flying AA from ORD to PVG just a few weeks ago, I was shocked that there were no Chinese flight attendants and no announcements in Chinese, on a flight which was probably 70% Chinese passengers.

Here's another question... Would they seek a different a Pacific strategy should US/AA merge?
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LAXdude1023
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:23 am

I wouldnt mind seeing DFW-HKG, but that is probably a job for the 787. The 77W seems too much plane.
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lightsaber
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 9):
AA needs to negotiate with pilot's union's to fly routes over a certain block time, I think it is over 16 hours but I am not exactly sure, as they are not allowed under the contract. It is what killed AA's DFW-PEK proposal a few years back and I am sure is something they will address during their bankruptcy proceedings.

I believe this has held back AA quite a bit. That is a provision in the pilot's contract that should be changed. Pilots who do not like those flights should bid otherwise.

Lightsaber
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thegoldenargosy
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
I believe this has held back AA quite a bit. That is a provision in the pilot's contract that should be changed. Pilots who do not like those flights should bid otherwise.

I totally agree with you. I'm shocked that they are against long haul flights. As former crew myself I would have loved a 3 day worth 32 hours with only two legs. I don't understand why they are against them.
 
PHX787
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:25 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
Cathay Pacific operates HKG-ORD daily.
Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay,

They codeshare quite well with CX and IMHO UA has the best service quality out of HKG. They've had some presence there for some time and from what I heard, it's a much better product. I'd be interested to see however how AA would do if, lets say, CX drops a flight to ORD or LAX and AA picks up that slot.
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:33 am

I find it funny how people criticize AA for not having an Asian/Pacific network, then turn around and say AA shouldn't fly here or there because CX or QF already does.  

AA needs to start flying their own metal, and stop acting like a virtual airline just to feed CX,QF and BA. Hopefully once the pilots get smacked down in court, AA can start expanding in Asia.

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 11):
Here's another question... Would they seek a different a Pacific strategy should US/AA merge?

Why would they. US brings absolutely nothing to the Pacific operation in the form of strategic outlook or actual routes. AA's strategy, albeit slow in moving, has been in place for a few years.

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 11):
It can't be cheap to open a station when you are bankrupt.

Its obvious that new routes like HKG would come after bankruptcy and pilot issues are resolved.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 4):
AA is also using their agreements with JL to connect through NRT to HKG and other points in Asia.

That just means double connections for pax outside of the big hubs.
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jfk777
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
LAX and JFK are very well served by Oneworld Alliance buddy Cathay,...DFW might not have the O&D traffiic to sustain that flight, so that leaves ORD..
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 16):
find it funny how people criticize AA for not having an Asian/Pacific network, then turn around and say AA shouldn't fly here or there because CX or QF already does.

Just because Cathay flies from many US cities and AA hubs to HKG doesn't mean AA shouldn't. Can you imagine if AA told BA " stop fying from JFK to LHR because we do " or if AA said to LAN " we fly from Miami to Santiago and Lima so you guys can't" ? They would tell AA "go to hell ".

IF CX has so many flights to the USA there is enough room for AA to fly to HKG from ORD & DFW.
 
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fxramper
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
I believe this has held back AA quite a bit. That is a provision in the pilot's contract that should be changed. Pilots who do not like those flights should bid otherwise.

  

To be frank, the pilots don't care about AA going to HKG or any other destinations requiring an agreement. They still sulk about the same pay they are getting from 2003 and now the airline is in chp 11 and retirement is the hot topic. It's unfortunate would the AA network looks like now.
 
commavia
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 13):
I believe this has held back AA quite a bit. That is a provision in the pilot's contract that should be changed. Pilots who do not like those flights should bid otherwise.
Quoting fxramper (Reply 18):
To be frank, the pilots don't care about AA going to HKG or any other destinations requiring an agreement. They still sulk about the same pay they are getting from 2003 and now the airline is in chp 11 and retirement is the hot topic. It's unfortunate would the AA network looks like now.

Something else I found fascinating from AA's section 1113 submission a few weeks back was another provision of the APA contract that I had never heard of before. It obviously was being interpreted by AA, in their submission, so I will be interesting to get the pilots' side of the story, but nonetheless it was very interesting.

Apparently, according to AA, this provision sets the amount of international codesharing that AA is allowed to do by creating a baseline of longhaul block hours flown by AA pilots. If AA falls below that baseline, it cannot codeshare international, or cannot codeshare as much internationally. (I'm not sure of the specifics.) AA's gripe is that this baseline never goes down - it only goes up - so if AA has to cut back on longhaul flying for any reason, the baseline that sets international codesharing still stays at the higher level.

There is a lot of detail in there that AA is obviously leaving out - thus why I'll be interested to get the APA side of the story in coming weeks - but based on the way the company is laying it out, it is obvious why this contract language would definitely dis-incentivize AA to take risks with more longhaul flying - particularly longer flights (like to Asia) that involve many block hours of pilot time: AA doesn't ever want to get caught in a situation where the flying doesn't work out, or the economy softens, and they could be left having to end lucrative international codeshares as a result.

[Edited 2012-04-07 06:15:22]
 
BoxBoy
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:12 pm

I don't understand how people can really believe that the pilots are holding AA back. The reason that the ultra long haul flights need to be "negotiated" with APA is that there are simply no established rules for it in the contract. It is not a "money grab".

The company doesn't want AA to fly the routes. They are satisfied with letting the codeshares do it. The reason for the contract's limitation on code share is to force AA to use their metal. The AA crews WANT to do the flying. AA DOES NOT. In bankruptcy, AA will try to eliminate the scope clause so that more of the flying can be done by code share.

If the pilots and FAs would go to AA and say that in the best interest of the company that they would be willing to buy AA a 777 and fly it for free to HKG, AA would walk away from the table and make a press release stating that the crews are being "unreasonable".

AA DOES NOT WANT TO DO THE FLYING.
 
AAIL86
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
With the amounts of destinations in Asia and in Europe it is a bit underwhelming where they fly with their own metal.

PA gave them first shot on their pacific network back in '85. Crandall also took the helm at AA in '85 - bad timing for American - if PA had made that offer a year later- for example- the results could have been different. As it stands, AA has tried to break into the transpac market for a long time- but eroding NW and UA's territory was always difficult.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
I wouldnt mind seeing DFW-HKG, but that is probably a job for the 787. The 77W seems too much plane.

Probably so- but AA's 77W will be much more competitive hard-product wise - so there will be opportunities.
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JAL
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:19 pm

The Asian market is a definite weakness in AA's network.
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thrufru
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:40 pm

I often get a kick out of reading threads like this, and find it really interesting how they so often devolve into speculation and basic incorrect information due to posts written by a bunch of armchair executives. As "BoxBoy" pointed out, without this type of flying being covered in the AA CBA, there is no reason for the crews to fly it.

It would be great if we truly lived and worked in a world where everyone's best interests meshed seamlessly and everyone operated in good faith. We don't. Without clear and concise rules and agreements in place, companies can and do run roughshod over their employees. Have you ever had a V.P. literally laugh in the face of Union Representatives because he interpreted something differently? And that's with a CBA...

As to whether or not AA will open up more Asian markets when they have the capabilities, it's all speculation. But to simplify it to the point of blaming it on crews is inappropriate.

I also question if any person on these forums would be happy with their wage scale being frozen 9 years ago, while you see your managers continuing to reap phenomenal compensation packages.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
AA has not had the airplanes to fly to Hong Kong.

Can't their 772ER's make it? UA does it from EWR and I'm pretty sure a 777 can make it to HKG from LAX and even DFW.
Beauty is watching a 787 bank to make a short final. Bliss is watching that 787 with a good beer. Nirvana is all of that with a beautiful woman on your side.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting thrufru (Reply 23):
It would be great if we truly lived and worked in a world where everyone's best interests meshed seamlessly and everyone operated in good faith. We don't. Without clear and concise rules and agreements in place, companies can and do run roughshod over their employees. Have you ever had a V.P. literally laugh in the face of Union Representatives because he interpreted something differently? And that's with a CBA...

Please...don't try to tell me that "union representatives" always have the best interest of the company in mind either. Their responsibility is to their members, and probably nothing else (in practice, at least).

A lot of people here love to paint management as the bad guys, but if a VP literally laughed in the face of someone, it's likely because someone was asking for something waaay out of the realm of feasibility.
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chapavaeaa
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:22 pm

Years ago when I worked for AA we did a 777-200 flight DFW-ORD-HKG-ORD. It was a test run for north polar ops as I recall. I was offered a seat...and thought about taking it however for the ORD-HKG-ORD portion I would have wound up in a center middle seat in the back.

The aircraft flew a route that offset the pole by about 30 miles as I recall.

AA's nearest service at the time was NRT. It was kind of surprise at how many people in the organization suddenly had urgent, must attend business in HKG. HKG wasn't scheduled to open, nor was it even being rumored at the time. It became a boondoggle for about 250 employees to spend 18 hours or so on the ground in HKG. The return flight was a bit lighter due to a number of employees staying longer. It was probably a good thing due to a mistake in obtaining overflight clearances for Taiwan (I believe). The route had to altered and added a couple of hours to the return leg. When they got back to ORD the aircraft had a very tight turn to return to it's normal schedule.

One real surprise in the entire episode was the amount of cooperation provided by United's flight department. The UAL 777 group provided great information about what to expect. At a sidebar during one of our meetings it was mentioned by one of the UAL guys that when the 777 group was starting up their transpolar flights their 747 group was absolutely no help. The UAL 747 operation looked at the UAL 777 taking over flights that should have been "theirs".
 
wrldtvlr
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 21):
Probably so- but AA's 77W will be much more competitive hard-product wise - so there will be opportunities.

Let's hope so.

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
DFW might not have the O&D traffiic to sustain that flight, so that leaves ORD..

I think a DFW-HKG would have plenty of feeder traffic from the South and parts of the Midwest. There wouldn't be much to worry about on the O&D market.
 
MAH4546
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):

I wouldnt mind seeing DFW-HKG, but that is probably a job for the 787. The 77W seems too much plane.


The 744 is too much plane for DFWSYD, but that is working. No reason a 77W can't be filled on DFWHKG given the strength of both hubs. Yes, DVWHKG is a small local market, but the average fare is pretty high which shows it leans premium.

HKG is a big gap in AA's Asia network, but the biggest gap is DFWICN.
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sunnyflyer
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:28 pm

Arriving at ORD the next gate was to Shanghai, approaching that gate was a gang of Asian AA, FA's judging the number I would say the whole plane would be serviced by Asian FA's,I surprised the person who had no Chinese FA's on his PVG flight.
 
hz747300
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting sunnyflyer (Reply 29):
I surprised the person who had no Chinese FA's on his PVG flight.

That was me. And there was Chinese announcements by a Chinese AA employee at the gate, but not on the plane. At no point, not even recorded messages. Maybe I just picked an odd day to fly.
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jfk777
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:51 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 19):
Apparently, according to AA, this provision sets the amount of international codesharing that AA is allowed to do by creating a baseline of longhaul block hours flown by AA pilots. If AA falls below that baseline, it cannot codeshare international, or cannot codeshare as much internationally. (I'm not sure of the specifics.) AA's gripe is that this baseline never goes down - it only goes up - so if AA has to cut back on longhaul flying for any reason, the baseline that sets international codesharing still stays at the higher level.

AA has not cut back many 777 routes, the two are Chicago to Dehli and JFK to NRT( AA restarted JFK-HND).
 
commavia
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 31):
AA has not cut back many 777 routes, the two are Chicago to Dehli and JFK to NRT( AA restarted JFK-HND).

AA has cut more 777 flying than that since 2003, the last time AA and the APA signed a new contract (although this provision may well have been in there since before then). Since 2003, AA has added - and removed - 777 flying not only on ORD-DEL and swapped JFK-HND for JFK-NRT, but has also dropped 777s ORD-NGO, DFW-KIX and ORD-DME (transitioned to 767, then dropped altogether). And there may be a few others I'm forgetting. But, either way, that's meaningless anyway since, at least as I read it, this contractual provision had nothing to do with 777s - or any aircraft specifically.

As AA describes it, this provision basically creates a contractually-binding relationship between the amount of longhaul hours AA pilots fly - on any and all aircraft types - and the amount of international codesharing AA is allowed to do. Each time AA adds more longhaul flying, the 'baseline' goes up and a new 'baseline' for international codesharing is set. But if AA draws down longhaul flying - for any reason - the pilot 'baseline' does not go down.

Logically, if that were the case, that would - at least to some extent - disincentivize AA from taking risks with new longhaul flying, because if the flying failed, they would have just locked in a higher 'baseline' of AA pilot longhaul hours meaning they would have to keep that level of longhaul flying or else risk having to end some of their international codeshares.
 
MAH4546
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:05 am

AA will likely be announcing a new long-haul station in a very short time, maybe this week. I have no idea what it is, but HKG would not shock me.
a.
 
jfk777
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33):
AA will likely be announcing a new long-haul station in a very short time, maybe this week. I have no idea what it is, but HKG would not shock me.

Africa should see silver. Can you imagine an AA silver 777 flying over the Victoria and Alferd waterfront in Capetown. South Africa is the most important country on the only Continent AA doesn't fly to.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:10 am

Short of an AA order for 748's, there's nothing AA could announce that would make me happier than new Africa routes or HKG.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 34):
Africa should see silver. Can you imagine an AA silver 777 flying over the Victoria and Alferd waterfront in Capetown. South Africa is the most important country....

  

I completely agree. AA needs to get into Africa and stop leaving it to Delta. JNB needs to be done, and I would add LOS to that as well.

When AA does go into JNB, I would hope they immediately establish codeshares with Comair(MN), and the same with Arik(W3) in Nigeria. They failed to build codeshares and gain feed from S7 when they had the DME flights.

I'm just wondering which hub they would use MIA or JFK.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 34):

...the only Continent AA doesn't fly to.

Australia too.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
MAH4546
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:20 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 35):
They failed to build codeshares and gain feed from S7 when they had the DME flights.

Can't blame AA. Russia-U.S. bilateral is extremely restrictive with codeshares, and only in the last year has Russia started to loosen up, hence more extensive AA/S7 and DL/SU codesharing has began recently.
a.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 36):
Can't blame AA. Russia-U.S. bilateral is extremely restrictive with codeshares, and only in the last year has Russia started to loosen up, hence more extensive AA/S7 and DL/SU codesharing has began recently.


Even with govt codeshare restrictions, at the very least AA could have interlined pax onto S7 metal and vice-versa via the booking engine. I remember getting the old "AA doesn't fly here" message when doing a fake ORD-DME-OVB booking.

I fear that "New AA" will repeat their past mistakes of passive expansion by not building local intl presence (airline partners, corporate contracts, marketing,...) and when it fails execs sit there saying "see that market isn't profitable". At the same time DL and UA are expanding and eating AA's lunch.

Can anyone tell me what has prevented AA from even attempting to build a presence in West Africa? There would be no pilot block time issue, they have capable aircraft for any LOS/ACC route from JFK or MIA, and the US-West Africa market isn't dominated by any alliance. If anything AA would have MIA-LOS/ACC all to themselves.
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flythere
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:04 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33):
AA will likely be announcing a new long-haul station in a very short time, maybe this week. I have no idea what it is, but HKG would not shock me.

Havent heard of such rumour from this side yet, but would be most welcome if true!
 
jfk777
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RE: No AA Flights To Hong Kong?

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:33 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 35):
Short of an AA order for 748's, there's nothing AA could announce that would make me happier than new Africa routes or HKG.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 34):
Africa should see silver. Can you imagine an AA silver 777 flying over the Victoria and Alferd waterfront in Capetown. South Africa is the most important country....



I completely agree. AA needs to get into Africa and stop leaving it to Delta. JNB needs to be done, and I would add LOS to that as well.

When AA does go into JNB, I would hope they immediately establish codeshares with Comair(MN), and the same with Arik(W3) in Nigeria. They failed to build codeshares and gain feed from S7 when they had the DME flights.

I'm just wondering which hub they would use MIA or JFK.

For Johannesburg Miami would be the better gateway for AA, it dominates MIA and SAA flies to JFK.