RCS763AV
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Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:28 pm

So since thread number 8 reached 200 posts, I start this new one with the last things we discussed on the previous:

Here's the new routes granted by the Aerocivil:


So, colombian Aerocivil has authorized frequencies to various airlines for international routes:

BOG-CUN for AV and AM, daily flights.
SJO-BOG-BSB for TA (LR), 4 weekly flights.
FLL-BOG-LIM for NK, daily flights.
BOG-SJO for AV, daily flights.
MDE-SAL for TA, 3 weekly flights.
CLO-SAL for TA, 3 weekly flights.
BOG-MAD for LA (4C), daily flights.
MDE-MEX for AV, daily flights.
BOG-MAD for AV, one frequency transfer from CLO and two frequencies extended.
Colombia-Spain for AV, three new weekly flights.
BOG-HAV, 5 extra weekly for AV and CM*, to make it daily for both (guess the bilateral was revised).
BOG-PTY-SJO-GUA for CM*, 2 weekly flights.
MDE-PTY-SDQ for CM*, daily flights.

On the domestic side,

MDE-BGA for AV, daily.
MDE-CUC for AV, daily.

Summa767 pointed out the subject of BOG-LIM finally having a low-cost connection which is very important, and I want to point out that it will also be the first northern south america corridor with such link. Low fares on the two and a half hour segment will be welcome. AV's blockage of the MDE-MEX route is evident, while the newly requested services to CUC and BGA from MDE could start up anytime due to the competition from Viva.

Also, BOG-BSB by TA is an interesting new prospect.

The frequencies to spain were granted very fairly between competitors.

And AVTA is rumored to be interested in TP (i know it has it's own thread, but it still exciting news!)

Anything else?  
 
777jaah
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
And AVTA is rumored to be interested in TP (i know it has it's own thread, but it still exciting news!)

I read that last week. Honestly, I don't think how that could happen. But if you ask me, it could be more of a Synergy group kind on interest on TP that AV-TA really. Or even maybe the portuguese goverment just naming people who "might" be interested. Is very common on the financial sector for competitors to "pose" as interested buyers of a institution being in the process of sale, just to take a peep in its numbers. Maybe Efromovich is just curious and want to take a look inside of TP's traffic numbers between this part of the world (Venezuela and Brazil) and Portugal/Europe. He might get excited and try to snatch the company and something like he did with AV. Anyway, just making the assumption he's really interested in the airline, I've read LH is also behind it. I bet the germans might be happy Efromovich is looking at it, to keep TP in the alliance and not letting BA snatch it.

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
BOG-MAD for LA (4C), daily flights.
Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
BOG-MAD for AV, one frequency transfer from CLO and two frequencies extended.
Colombia-Spain for AV, three new weekly flights.

This market will become a blood bath indeed. Thanks god for competition!!!!!
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
Honestly, I don't think how that could happen. But if you ask me, it could be more of a Synergy group kind on interest on TP that AV-TA really.

Indeed. There's a lot of reasons AV-TA on their own could find it very hard support an acquisition of that size. Mommy Synergy would have to come into place.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
Or even maybe the portuguese goverment just naming people who "might" be interested. Is very common on the financial sector for competitors to "pose" as interested buyers of a institution being in the process of sale, just to take a peep in its numbers.

That is indeed true. This happens every time, but it's still a possibility. Efromovich's buyout of Avianca started as a far-fetched rumor too. He has very deep pockets also.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
Anyway, just making the assumption he's really interested in the airline, I've read LH is also behind it. I bet the germans might be happy Efromovich is looking at it, to keep TP in the alliance and not letting BA snatch it.

That's very true, but LH are having their own issues to sort out right now (finishing the BMI venture which was clearly unsuccessful and trying to bring OS back from the dead), so they might want to enter discussion with Synergy to make a joint bid or something. It's all very interesting news. I could also see it as a strategic move from Synergy and AviancaTaca to remind the Star Alliance that they are a valuable addition with all the LATAM pressure going around.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
This market will become a blood bath indeed. Thanks god for competition!!!!!

Some 18-24 months from now I could see the Colombia-Spain market being like this,

In the case that Spain finally gains some minimal economical stability

AV

BOG-MAD 12 weekly
BOG-BCN 5 weekly
CLO-MAD 6 weekly
MDE-MAD 4 weekly

IB

BOG-MAD 12-13 weekly

LA

BOG-MAD 7 weekly

In the case Spain continues to crumble as an economy,

AV

BOG-MAD 11 weekly
BOG-BCN 5 weekly
CLO-MAD 5 weekly
MDE-MAD 3 weekly

IB

BOG-MAD 10-11 weekly

LA

BOG-MAD 7 weekly

Im basing this prediction on the frequencies that have been acquired lately by the airlines and the general behavior of the market during the last couple of years, plus knowing that lower fares will expand demand and that the market is a bit underserved too.
 
777jaah
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
but LH are having their own issues to sort out right now (finishing the BMI venture which was clearly unsuccessful and trying to bring OS back from the dead),

That's why I guess LH would be more than happy to let AV-TA put up that fight instead of themselves, and sabve valuable resources for their own troubled subsidiaries.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 2):
so they might want to enter discussion with Synergy to make a joint bid or something

Don't think so.....but who really knows, this situation might end up in the funnies and weirdest way possible.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 2):
I could also see it as a strategic move from Synergy and AviancaTaca to remind the Star Alliance that they are a valuable addition with all the LATAM pressure going around.

Sure. Any alliance would love to have such a member, with a hub in Europe and multi-hub operation in southamerica.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 2):
Efromovich's buyout of Avianca started as a far-fetched rumor too.

But this time is diferent. Now he has proved everyone that he can run an airline succesfully. When he bought AV, many employees thought it was a really bad thing, but it turned out differently. The portuguese government might be interested in knowing that TP could be turned around the same way AV was, thus, saving thousands of local jobs, which are more than scarce these days in Portugal.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 2):
plus knowing that lower fares will expand demand and that the market is a bit underserved too.

This is the good thing. I bet things will improve for the customer.


777jaah
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:12 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 3):
That's why I guess LH would be more than happy to let AV-TA put up that fight instead of themselves, and sabve valuable resources for their own troubled subsidiaries.

Probably so.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 3):
Sure. Any alliance would love to have such a member, with a hub in Europe and multi-hub operation in southamerica.

That too. But I was referring to AVTA ans Synergy reminding the Star members of their actual size by demonstrating they could be able to buy TP, not to mention keeping TP in the alliance which would be a valuable thing.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 3):
But this time is diferent. Now he has proved everyone that he can run an airline succesfully. When he bought AV, many employees thought it was a really bad thing, but it turned out differently. The portuguese government might be interested in knowing that TP could be turned around the same way AV was, thus, saving thousands of local jobs, which are more than scarce these days in Portugal.

Yes, it's different alright. But it's still a far-fetched rumor, we'll see how it evolves.

On other news, apparently AV will be launching BOG-MAR flights in july:

http://noticiaaldia.com/2012/04/coor...uelos-maracaibo-bogota-para-julio/

Very welcome link too. Daily A318 I would guess?
 
A388
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:20 pm

Are the days of operation and arrival/departure times of the BOG-BSB-BOG flight known already? I never expected this route to happen, what's the reason AV/TA start this route? Is there a lot of demand between these two cities?

A388
 
A388
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:27 pm

Also, I know this is not entirely related to Colombian aviation but it is linked to it. What's the status on the AV A332 going to TA to operate out of LIM? I read that it will be used on flights to MIA as well? If so, is this just for crew familiarisation purposes or will TA use the A332 to MIA consistantly? How many A332's will TA be getting?

I hope TA will re-introduce the parrots on their A332 as they had them on their A321 but with more and bigger parrots:



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Kopczak



A388

[Edited 2012-04-10 10:35:11]
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
Are the days of operation and arrival/departure times of the BOG-BSB-BOG flight known already

I'm not sure.

Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
I never expected this route to happen, what's the reason AV/TA start this route? Is there a lot of demand between these two cities?

No, there isn't. There is some demand combined with the possible connections to north america and the caribbean that BOG can offer to BSB passengers, which is the purpose, not to mention the flight connects Avianca's hub with one of Avianca Brasil's largest bases. It's not like PTY has unlimited demand to all of the destinations CM fly to...

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
What's the status on the AV A332 going to TA to operate out of LIM?

Second semester of the year i've read.

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
How many A332's will TA be getting?

No idea, but no more than two until the 787s arrive.

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
I hope TA will re-introduce the parrots on their A332 as they had them on their A321 but with more and bigger parrots:

The rebranding process should be done by the time TA get their A332. Also, TA changed their livery a long time ago and the "live" parrots don't really fit into the new scheme. Anyway, the A330 will probably come under the unified brand in order to save costs (it wouldn't make sense to paint it from AV to TA colours and change the interiors to re do everything after a few weeks).
 
A388
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:25 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
Anyway, the A330 will probably come under the unified brand in order to save costs (it wouldn't make sense to paint it from AV to TA colours and change the interiors to re do everything after a few weeks).

What do you mean with unified brand? Will the TA livery be changed to AV colors? Aren't those A332's coming brandnew from the manufacturer?

A388
 
C010T3
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
Also, BOG-BSB by TA is an interesting new prospect.
Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
Are the days of operation and arrival/departure times of the BOG-BSB-BOG flight known already? I never expected this route to happen, what's the reason AV/TA start this route? Is there a lot of demand between these two cities?

Costa Rica and Brazil have open skies, while Colombia and Brazil don't. AV-TA is just dealing with the restrictions of the Colombian aviation market by circumventing the rules. LIM-BSB was not working, so they had to find a better way to service the BSB market and that's through BOG.
It's a real experiment what they are trying with that. Good pricing on connections between AV and TA (LR) at BOG will be key for the success.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:51 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 8):
What do you mean with unified brand? Will the TA livery be changed to AV colors? Aren't those A332's coming brandnew from the manufacturer?

Months ago Fabio Villegas confirmed that the brand would be unified, it has been widely discussed in the forum. And no, the brand new A330s are going to AV while they transfer older ones to LIM.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 9):
Costa Rica and Brazil have open skies, while Colombia and Brazil don't. AV-TA is just dealing with the restrictions of the Colombian aviation market by circumventing the rules.

Why circumvent the rules? TA still had to ask for authorization for four weekly frequencies to the Aerocivil so now there are four less available frequencies on the colombian side as far as I know...
 
C010T3
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
Why circumvent the rules? TA still had to ask for authorization for four weekly frequencies to the Aerocivil so now there are four less available frequencies on the colombian side as far as I know...

No, there are not! LR is a Costa Rican airline. Aerocivil only had a say in it because of the 5th freedom traffic, but the Colombian frequencies to Costa Rica and to Brazil are intact.
 
A388
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
Months ago Fabio Villegas confirmed that the brand would be unified, it has been widely discussed in the forum. And no, the brand new A330s are going to AV while they transfer older ones to LIM.

Okay, I wasn't aware of this. In that case I'm lucky I have seen the TA livery (old and new livery). When is the first TA aircraft expected to be painted in AV colors? When is it expected to be finalized? This is the disadvantage of consolidation, less airline variety  

A388
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 11):
No, there are not! LR is a Costa Rican airline. Aerocivil only had a say in it because of the 5th freedom traffic, but the Colombian frequencies to Costa Rica and to Brazil are intact.

Now that doesn't make any sense...I mean Colombia is granting traffic rights from BOG to Brazil to an airline regardless of it's nationality, it should loose four frequencies.

Anyway, BOG-BSB is a very welcome link and I hope this hub works better than LIM for Brasília bound passengers (it has a lot more connections to the US, the caribbean and Mexico to offer), which will be loosing LIM-BSB in june. It's also an upgrade from 3 weekly E190s to 4 weekly A319s for BSB, regarding TA flights.

Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
When is the first TA aircraft expected to be painted in AV colors? When is it expected to be finalized?

No one knows as they have been very quiet about this. All we know is it will happen this year. Also, there is no official saying as into which of the brands will prevail over the other. Everyone assumes it's going to be Avianca given that they carry 70% of the groups revenue and are the majority shareholders of the AviancaTaca holding, but who knows. A completely new brand hasn't been ruled out either.
 
C010T3
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 13):
Now that doesn't make any sense...I mean Colombia is granting traffic rights from BOG to Brazil to an airline regardless of it's nationality, it should loose four frequencies.

No, the frequencies involved are on the Brazil-Costa Rica and on the Colombia-Costa Rica bilateral agreements, not on the Colombia-Brazil agreement. It's a Costa Rican airline, so the frequencies used are only those authorized to Costa Rican airlines on both bilateral agreements. The Brazil-Colombia bilateral agreement is not involved.

TAM uses the same strategy in order to have more flights to Argentina, since the Brazil-Argentina is maxed out. TAM Airlines (Paraguay) flies ASU-EZE-GRU and ASU-AEP-GIG.
 
777jaah
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:57 pm

Here's an article on the curent status of the new terminal at BOG:

http://www.portafolio.co/economia/nu...rnacional-eldorado-operaria-agosto
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
A388
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 13):
A completely new brand hasn't been ruled out either.

Thanks for the explanation RCS763AV. I would have wanted for both AV and TA to keep their brands just like how KL and AF do. The AV and TA brands are just too well known in Latin America. If they chose a new brand/livery I wonder how that will be...

A388
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:34 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
Are the days of operation and arrival/departure times of the BOG-BSB-BOG flight known already? I never expected this route to happen, what's the reason AV/TA start this route?

TA LIM-BSB 3x weekly with E90 will drop that route in favor of TA/LR [SJO-MTY] 3x weekly with E90 from June 02nd.




.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
There is some demand combined with the possible connections to north america and the caribbean that BOG can offer to BSB passengers, which is the purpose, not to mention the flight connects Avianca's hub with one of Avianca Brasil's largest bases.

That's why CM PTY-BSB goes from 4x to 7x weekly; effective: June 18th.




.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 9):
Costa Rica and Brazil have open skies, while Colombia and Brazil don't. AV-TA is just dealing with the restrictions of the Colombian aviation market by circumventing the rules. LIM-BSB was not working, so they had to find a better way to service the BSB market and that's through BOG

Notice that the intended SJO-BOG-BSB would be operated by LACSA from Costa Rica who's involved in GRUPO TACA.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
C010T3
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 11):

No, there are not! LR is a Costa Rican airline. Aerocivil only had a say in it because of the 5th freedom traffic, but the Colombian frequencies to Costa Rica and to Brazil are intact.
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 17):
Notice that the intended SJO-BOG-BSB would be operated by LACSA from Costa Rica who's involved in GRUPO TACA

Did you read reply 11?
 
A388
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:53 pm

Guys,

As per some of my local friends of mine, I understood that several government aircraft are in Colombia now. I understood that even the Air Force One is in Colombia. One 757 is now in CUR but do you know if more aircraft will be heading to CUR? If so, for how long will they be staying here?

A388
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 18):
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 11):
No, there are not! LR is a Costa Rican airline. Aerocivil only had a say in it because of the 5th freedom traffic, but the Colombian frequencies to Costa Rica and to Brazil are intact.Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 17):Notice that the intended SJO-BOG-BSB would be operated by LACSA from Costa Rica who's involved in GRUPO TACA
Did you read reply 11?

TA/LR [SJO-BOG-BSB] 2x weekly is the first attempt trying to exploit the Open Skies agreement signed in 2011. However, the untapped market called SJO-BSB is tiny at this time. Furthermore, if TA/LR are trying to boost it based on onward connections at SJO as well, it looks unappealing regarding the layover in Bogota and the very limited weekly frequencies from the beginning. On the other hand, CM PTY-BSB goes to daily soon as pointing out above.
I would've rather expected a combination in Brasilia like AV BOG-GIG 3x weekly and TA LIM-GIG 7x weekly, which are also experiencing lack of competition for the time being.
In that case, any SJO-BOG-GRU or SJO-GRU as non-stop might work better for them. Here's one new issue: the 319 is the suitable plane for such non-stop route, but I'm not pretty sure if it can fly the sector without penalties.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Avianca
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 19):
As per some of my local friends of mine, I understood that several government aircraft are in Colombia now. I understood that even the Air Force One is in Colombia. One 757 is now in CUR but do you know if more aircraft will be heading to CUR? If so, for how long will they be staying here?

yes right now is starting " La cumbre de las Americas" in Cartagena!

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
BOG-HAV, 5 extra weekly for AV and CM*, to make it daily for both (guess the bilateral was revised).

lets hope AV is going to increase the flights very soon! without that they wont have a chance!
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
C010T3
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:23 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 20):
However, the untapped market called SJO-BSB is tiny at this time

They're going for the BSB-BOG market and onward connections, not for BSB-SJO. AV is still trying to form a set of 7 frequencies for its BOG-GIG service, so that's why they will not try involving LR in this.The GIG market also rejects BOG as a connecting point to various destinations, since there are numerous other alternatives from GIG with better timing.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:54 am

LA will discontinue the BOG-MIA 3x weekly sector with 763 from August 23.
Lan Colombia will maintain daily flights into the MIA-BOG segment.




.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 22):
going for the BSB-BOG market and onward connections, not for BSB-SJO.

So good luck for BOG-BSB as LIM-BSB didn't work well for them.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:30 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 20):
TA/LR [SJO-BOG-BSB] 2x weekly is the first attempt trying to exploit the Open Skies agreement signed in 2011.

My understanding is that the flight will be 4x weekly, not 2x weekly.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 22):
The GIG market also rejects BOG as a connecting point to various destinations, since there are numerous other alternatives from GIG with better timing.

Well at three weekly frequencies, AV is just attending to the BOG-GIG O/D market and a limited number of connections. As you say, there are more options with better frequency and timing. When AV goes daily to GIG they will surely attract a lot more passengers for connections.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 23):
LA will discontinue the BOG-MIA 3x weekly sector with 763 from August 23.
Lan Colombia will maintain daily flights into the MIA-BOG segment.

That's unexpected, but a logical move.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 23):
So good luck for BOG-BSB as LIM-BSB didn't work well for them.

BOG-BSB has much more chances than LIM-BSB working. First, BOG is the holding's largest hub by far, second it offers much more connections to north america than LIM and third it is overall a larger market. So yes, BOG-BSB, au contraire to LIM-BSB, has a chance of surviving.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:28 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 24):
My understanding is that the flight will be 4x weekly, not 2x weekly.

Aerocivil from Colombia has indeed authorized 4x weekly frequencies into TA/LR SJO-BOG-BSB.
On the other hand, I've read about that flight starting twice a week some weeks ago and prior to the demise of TA LIM-BSB 3x weekly.




.

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
Anything else?

UA had asked for seven more weekly frequencies into both IAH-BOG and EWR-BOG.
Same witk 2K GYE-BOG-PTY 7x weekly.
These intended frequencies weren't apparently granted as shown above.




.

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
BOG-SJO for AV, daily flights.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't AV initially apply for daily flights into MDE-SJO instead?

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
jfk777
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:08 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 19):
As per some of my local friends of mine, I understood that several government aircraft are in Colombia now. I understood that even the Air Force One is in Colombia. One 757 is now in CUR but do you know if more aircraft will be heading to CUR? If so, for how long will they be staying here?

Did AF1 land in Cartagena or Barranqilla ?
 
C010T3
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 24):

BOG-BSB has much more chances than LIM-BSB working. First, BOG is the holding's largest hub by far, second it offers much more connections to north america than LIM and third it is overall a larger market. So yes, BOG-BSB, au contraire to LIM-BSB, has a chance of surviving.

Yes, but we have yet to see how well AV-TA will market connections between TA and AV. I believe it's the first time AV-TA practices this cross-feeding of hubs. They will have to work for seamless connections, not to mention joint pricing.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 27):
Yes, but we have yet to see how well AV-TA will market connections between TA and AV. I believe it's the first time AV-TA practices this cross-feeding of hubs. They will have to work for seamless connections, not to mention joint pricing

Well yes and no, it is the first time TA and AV practice this, but 2K has been doing it for a while now in BOG and LIM with the flights to Ecuador. Joint pricing is there already, as you can select any itinerary through the AV or the TA website and it costs the same. For example, when I book a ticket from BOG to EZE on avianca.com, it gives me the option of the TA flight to LIM. Same to TA.com, which gives me the direct option on AV. And for other purposes, the imminent brand unification will mean that whatever brand survives, there will only be need for marketing that brand, so that takes the complexity out of it too.

And since i'm assuming this flight is going to depart to BSB on BOG's nightbank, there should be no problem for passengers inbound from MIA, FLL, MCO, IAD, CCS, PTY, VLN, GYE, UIO, LIM, AUA, CUR, SDQ, MAD, BCN, SJO, MEX, SAL and HAV to find their connection, and on the way from BSB i'm assuming it will arrive in BOG in time for the mid-morning bank which has connections to MIA, PTY, MEX, FLL, MCO, CCS, UIO, GYE, IAD, SJO, SAL or the noon bank, which has connections to JFK, AUA, CUR, PTY, MEX, CCS, VLN, SDQ... all banks offer flights to most of the domestic destinations.it depends, there will be much more on offer that what there was in LIM.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 24):
second it offers much more connections to north america than LIM and third it is overall a larger market.

LIM has far more capacity to North America than BOG does. In terms of "larger market," I don't know what context that is being placed in but North America-Lima is larger than North America-Bogota and LIMBSB is larger than BOGBSB.
a.
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3663
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
LIM has far more capacity to North America than BOG does.

I'm saying in the context of what AviancaTaca can offer. While TA has 1 daily flight to MIA from LIM, AV flies twice a day to MIA, twice a day to JFK, daily to FLL, daily to IAD and four times a week to MCO form BOG, some of the flights are also flown on widebodies. Also, BOG-LAX is reportedly a strong candidate for making a comeback this year. There is also a third daily MIA rotation on the plans.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
In terms of "larger market," I don't know what context that is being placed in but North America-Lima is larger than North America-Bogota and LIMBSB is larger than BOGBSB.

I'm saying it in the context that Colombia is a more populated country and a much larger economy than Perú, thus potentially attracting a larger number of passengers. These kinds of thin markets with mainly connecting passengers only get stimulated if there are actual flights between the two cities, LIM-BSB had minimal O/D before LA and TA started flying.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2465
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 30):
while TA has 1 daily flight to MIA from LIM, AV flies twice a day to MIA, twice a day to JFK, daily to FLL, daily to IAD and four times a week to MCO form BOG, some of the flights are also flown on widebodies. Also, BOG-LAX is reportedly a strong candidate for making a comeback this year. There is also a third daily MIA rotation on the plans.

AV-TA also knows that CM would fly daily to Brasilia in June, allowing immediate connections from MIA, MCO, JFK, LAX, IAD, ORD and LAS [June 27th] through PTY. We could also add the participation of UA IAH-PTY plus UA EWR-PTY.




.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 30):
Colombia is a more populated country and a much larger economy than Perú, thus potentially attracting a larger number of passengers. These kinds of thin markets with mainly connecting passengers only get stimulated if there are actual flights between the two cities, LIM-BSB had minimal O/D before LA and TA started flying.

I partially agreed with.
BOG-BSB might be more successful than LIM-BSB based on connections supplied by AV at BOG mainly from USA as pointing out before. However, this is a specific case because LIM-BSB isn't even a consolidated market for TA.
For example, TA LIM-GIG 7x weekly is apparently doing well. That doesn't mean that these operations would be totally moved as BOG-GIG and justified in a better connectivity from the USA. I don't ignore the existence of AV BOG-GIG 3x weekly.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3663
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 31):
We could also add the participation of UA IAH-PTY plus UA EWR-PTY.

Those could be added to the options out of BOG too, not to mention AC's flights to YYZ and LH's flights to FRA.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 31):
AV-TA also knows that CM would fly daily to Brasilia in June, allowing immediate connections from MIA, MCO, JFK, LAX, IAD, ORD and LAS [June 27th] through PTY.

Indeed, they need to be more competitive to north america, and LIM wasn't there yet for them.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 31):
BOG-BSB might be more successful than LIM-BSB based on connections supplied by AV at BOG mainly from USA as pointing out before. However, this is a specific case because LIM-BSB isn't even a consolidated market for TA.
For example, TA LIM-GIG 7x weekly is apparently doing well. That doesn't mean that these operations would be totally moved as BOG-GIG and justified in a better connectivity from the USA. I don't ignore the existence of AV BOG-GIG 3x weekly.

I understand what you're saying, and you prove me with my point. GIG is a significantly larger market than BSB, and thus can support services to BOG and LIM without a problem, in fact both flights have been doing very well, frequencies have been requested to upgrade BOG already. But BSB wasn't catching on and wasn't going to really consolidate ever out of LIM as the market is so tiny without the US connections. It's not like i'm saying the flight to BOG could live on just o/d either, it's the connections that will keep it afloat, as BOG-BSB is a tiny market too.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
LIM has far more capacity to North America than BOG does.

It would be nice to make a comparative schedule to see where BOG and LIM stand now in terms of non-stop capacity to North America...I can start by the flights from BOG:

American Airlines:

MIA 21x weekly (2x 757, 1x 738), third flight was made year-round

United Airlines:

IAH 14x weekly (738)
EWR 7x weekly (73G)

Delta Airlines:

ATL 7x weekly (757)
JFK 7x weekly (73G)

Spirit Airlines:

FLL 7x weekly (A320) + 7x weekly LIM-BOG-FLL due to start soon

Jetblue:

MCO 7x weekly (A320)
FLL 7x weekly (A320) due to start soon

Avianca:

MIA 14x weekly (A332 7x, A320 7x)
FLL 7x weekly (A320)
MCO 4x weekly (A319)
IAD 7x weekly (A319)
JFK 13x weekly (A332 7x, A319 6x)

LAN:

MIA 10x weekly (7x A320, 3x 763), 3x weekly SCL-BOG-MIA 767-300ER flights confirmed to be terminating in BOG from next month

Air Canada:

YYZ 5x weekly (763), seasonally it goes to daily
 
C010T3
Posts: 1656
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 32):
I understand what you're saying, and you prove me with my point. GIG is a significantly larger market than BSB, and thus can support services to BOG and LIM without a problem, in fact both flights have been doing very well, frequencies have been requested to upgrade BOG already. But BSB wasn't catching on and wasn't going to really consolidate ever out of LIM as the market is so tiny without the US connections. It's not like i'm saying the flight to BOG could live on just o/d either, it's the connections that will keep it afloat, as BOG-BSB is a tiny market too.

I'm not sure that BSB-LIM was doing so badly, but analysing the traffic generated, they realised that BOG was a better option. It's about BOG being better than LIM, not that LIM was doomed or anything.
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3663
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
I'm not sure that BSB-LIM was doing so badly,

Well it wasn't a 10 pax per flight situation, but the loads were very seasonal and very mediocre and even after LAN left the market it just wouldn't pick up. The fact that the E190 couldn't carry any decent cargo and that the A319 was already too big didn't help either.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
It's about BOG being better than LIM, not that LIM was doomed or anything.

No one is saying LIM was doomed to fail, but the facts are there. Tiny market + only one daily available connection to the US + inadequate aircraft + = no money. The lack of better US connections also impaired them from absorbing whatever significant amount of passengers LAN were carrying on their flights.

It's more about the lack of demand to the rest of latin america that the Brasília area has rather than BOG or LIM, which makes the flights very dependant of what's offered to north America.

Also, as we speak the first three A320s for VivaColombia are being painted and retrofitted for their entry into service next month. There are already a couple of pictures on the internet of one of them doing flight tests in SJO so it should be a matter of days before they arrive in MDE. Their website is going live during this month also. May we say welcome to the first mainline, true LCC that Colombia has ever had.

[Edited 2012-04-16 12:00:45]
 
ghost77
Posts: 4464
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:04 pm

Colombian friends,

Is is true Aerocivil is blocking and condition Interjet's entrance on MEX-BOG unless SCT here grants permission for LAN Colombia to do BOG-MEX.

Any info or can anyone past the text?

g77
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
Summa767
Posts: 1776
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 35):
Is is true Aerocivil is blocking and condition Interjet's entrance on MEX-BOG unless SCT here grants permission for LAN Colombia to do BOG-MEX.Any info or can anyone past the text?

I don't have insider info, but do know from public documents that Interjet did apply to fly MEX-BOG and was indeed denied the route. Aerocivil simply said that Interjet needed to obtain the nomination of the mexican authorities for the route, before they could approve it.
As you know only 2 airlines from each side are allowed to fly a city pair. It was MX and AM. If the mexican authorities grant the nomination for the route previosly held by MX to Interjet, there is no reason why Aerocivil would not respect the current bilateral agreement.

I am sure that Colombia would be keen to have open skies, or even expand the number of airlines allowed per city pair, but I am certain that they would not resort to breaking an aviation treaty to force the issue.

What is the situation with Mexicana's slots and route rights? Are they being given to other operators?
 
danimarroquin
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:06 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:37 am

Talking about AV joining star alliance and a plane painted in star alliance colors , seems that the next A319 that AV would take of delivery is gonna be the one !!!

http://v2.airplaneupload.de/display-i1906b3nzij.html

or the new combine AV/TA colors ??? which I hope not !!!!
 
A388
Posts: 7248
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 26):
Did AF1 land in Cartagena or Barranqilla ?

Yes it did but it overnighted in Curacao the entire weekend until it had to pick up the government officials again when they finished with the summit. There were two VC-32A's (Air Force Two) and one VC-25A (Air Force One) in Curacao. They all left already.

A388
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2465
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:43 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 33):
BOG was a better option. It's about BOG being better than LIM, not that LIM was doomed or anything.

In my view, AV-TA must analyze carefully about how would they serve Brazil internationally in the mid-term.
Less than 10 years ago, only GRU and GIG had direct services to the USA. Nonetheless, this situation has dramatically changed nowadays allowing the integration of CNF, MAO, REC, SSA and BSB, in terms of direct flights to South Florida.
Copa Airlines who's a direct competitor into the [USA-Brazil] market through PTY already flies to POA and REC from June 23rd and they've asked about services to Salvador de Bahia in the future.
Back to the situation on AV-TA, they have a decent level of service heading to GRU and GIG through both LIM and BOG. Nevertheless, the problem is likely focused in their tiny markets as TA LIM-POA 3x weekly and the intended TA/LR [SJO-BOG-BSB] 4x weekly over TA LIM-BSB 3x weekly.
Might we see the shift of TA LIM-POA over AV BOG-POA because the better connectivity from the United States through BOG and disregarding the conditions from the bilateral agreement ? My own answer is still in progress and it strictly depends in how would TA/LR [SJO-BOG-BSB] work in the future.
Avianca Brasil is an advantage for AV-TA mainline as they are able to combine their mutual operations based on a strong code-share cooperation. This situation would benefit to Star Alliance as well, taking into consideration that JJ may apparently leave it, in favor of LATAM and OneWorld grouping.




.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 34):
There are already a couple of pictures on the internet of one of them doing flight tests in SJO

Check the current Central American aviation series.
The reply 123 displays the pictures.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
ghost77
Posts: 4464
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:22 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 36):
What is the situation with Mexicana's slots and route rights? Are they being given to other operators?

Thanks for all your info Summa767.

I guess as MX has/still holds rights on MEX-BOG maybe Aerocivil will grant a 3rd designation from Mexico if a 3rd airline is authorized on the Colombian side.

As for MX situation... is a bunch of bollocks (¡porquerías políticas y económicas!) MX by law still hold all rights and slots but it's been dead for almost 2 years and still everything is so uncertain, MX MRO is working normally, you see planes come and go from LAN's Airbus to some other stuff from other lessors. You see MX birds being protected and moved and kept in good shape. Weird, very weird all.

g77
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
Summa767
Posts: 1776
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 40):
As for MX situation... is a bunch of bollocks (¡porquerías políticas y económicas!) MX by law still hold all rights and slots but it's been dead for almost 2 years and still everything is so uncertain,

Weird indeed. I can see that there is an interest in getting MX flying again, but 2 years is a long time. All the unused or "frozen" rights and slots could be used by other operators.
Perhaps what the mexican aviation authorities can do is to allow changes in bilateral agreements, such as the one with Colombia to allow unlimited operators on a city pair (Colombia would be more than happy with that as the city pair restriction only exists with the Mexican treaty). and why not, unlimited frequencies too! That way, the likes of InterJet would not be stuck in their ambitions through no fault of their own.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2465
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:53 am

Proposed schedule for TA/LR [SJO-BOG-BSB] 4x weekly:

LR 691...SJO 17:25.......BOG 20:40......Mo, We, Fr, Su
LR 691...BOG 21:45......BSB 03:55+1...Mo, We, Fr, Su

LR 690..BSB 10:25........BOG 12:40......Mo, Tu, Th, Sa
LR 690..BOG 15:25.......SJO 16:40.......Mo, Tu, Th, Sa
Effective: June 01st


Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Summa767
Posts: 1776
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 42):

Proposed schedule for TA/LR [SJO-BOG-BSB] 4x weekly:

Thanks for this. It's clear that the timings are geared totally at connections in BOG more than a direct flights between SJO and BSB. On the flights from BSB there is a almost a 3 hour stop in BOG. I presume that pax will not stay onboard all that time. Indeed, it could be that there is a change of aircraft.

It's also significant that this BSB extension to a flight that is already operating seems to be the end for the 2145 BOG-SJO that is necessary for connections from Europe (MAD, BCN and FRA with AV and LH).
Perhaps more detail will come through..

On a different note, it would seem that AV's 787 will be delayed to 2016! This according to an interview in La Republica business magazine with Roberto Kriete, AV-TA's chairman.
If so, I guess this means a blow to any rapid long haul expansion. Indeed, cold water has already been thrown on the -until recently- imminent plans for a BOG-LON flight. This is a great opportunity for LAN. Let's see if they can seize it.
 
troest
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:08 pm

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:24 am

LAN Chile is adjusting operation SCL - BOG. It will operate on a daily basis effective 24 August 2012. The existing 3 weekly BOG - MIA will end. LAN Colombia will maintain daily flights to MIA.

Link: http://airlineroute.net/2012/04/12/la-bog-aug12/

Regards
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3663
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 42):
LR 691...SJO 17:25.......BOG 20:40......Mo, We, Fr, Su
LR 691...BOG 21:45......BSB 03:55+1...Mo, We, Fr, Su

LR 690..BSB 10:25........BOG 12:40......Mo, Tu, Th, Sa
LR 690..BOG 15:25.......SJO 16:40.......Mo, Tu, Th, Sa

Absolutely geared toward connections in BOG, both for SJO and BSB bound passengers.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 43):
On a different note, it would seem that AV's 787 will be delayed to 2016! This according to an interview in La Republica business magazine with Roberto Kriete, AV-TA's chairman.

They said 2014 in their investors meeting presentation and Villegas, who is the CEO, has said countless times that 2014 is the year. I wouldn't believe what Kriete is saying until there's an official press release from Boeing or AviancaTaca releases a statement or something. A further delay to 2016 might prompt them to order more A330s I guess.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 43):
ndeed, cold water has already been thrown on the -until recently- imminent plans for a BOG-LON flight.

Well they have been awfully silent about it but there hasn't been any word on it not happening. Getting slots at LHR must be proving very difficult.

Quoting troest (Reply 44):
LAN Chile is adjusting operation SCL - BOG. It will operate on a daily basis effective 24 August 2012. The existing 3 weekly BOG - MIA will end. LAN Colombia will maintain daily flights to MIA.

Ok, so there will be a frequency reduction in both markets then. SCL-BOG was to operate 8x weekly a couple of months ago.

On other news,

Avianca is relaunching year-round CLO-MDE-JFK flights starting in may:

http://www.larepublica.co/node/7779

They will operate weekends only during the slow season and daily from june to mid-september and december to mid january. I guess it was too big of a market to leave it seasonal only. CM and AA must have been making a killing. This also proves that the second daily BOG-JFK flight has had success and can sustain itself on it's own.

Rumor has it that the city of Pereira is lobbying hard with Avianca for the restart of a PEI-MIA connection. I wonder if they´ll restart PEI-CTG-MIA on A320 as it was (right now CTG-MIA is an A318 flight) or go PEI-MIA direct with A318...

[Edited 2012-04-18 04:15:33]
 
Summa767
Posts: 1776
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 45):
They said 2014 in their investors meeting presentation and Villegas, who is the CEO, has said countless times that 2014 is the year. I wouldn't believe what Kriete is saying until there's an official press release from Boeing or AviancaTaca releases a statement or somethin

Kriete is the chairman of the board of Avianca-Taca!
Of course there is the possibility that La Republica made a transcription error in the year, but I *fully* believe Kriete, who is there when key decisions are made. They are not made unilaterally by Villegas as the CEO or even Mr efromovich as largest shareholder, but by the whole board.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2337
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 36):
I don't have insider info, but do know from public documents that Interjet did apply to fly MEX-BOG and was indeed denied the route. Aerocivil simply said that Interjet needed to obtain the nomination of the mexican authorities for the route, before they could approve it.
As you know only 2 airlines from each side are allowed to fly a city pair. It was MX and AM. If the mexican authorities grant the nomination for the route previosly held by MX to Interjet, there is no reason why Aerocivil would not respect the current bilateral agreement.

If Interjet 4O was to apply for TLC-BOG, would that be considered as Mexico City - Bogota city pair too?

Recently VVC Villavicencio Vanguardia made the news when kidnapped Colombian police were released.
Has VVC runway been extended lately? How are the talks of making it a secondary Bogota airport?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 43):
If so, I guess this means a blow to any rapid long haul expansion. Indeed, cold water has already been thrown on the -until recently- imminent plans for a BOG-LON flight. This is a great opportunity for LAN. Let's see if they can seize it.

LAN Colombia plans to launch BOG-MAD daily and BOG-BCN 3x weekly during this year.
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3663
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombia Aviation Numero Nueve

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 47):
If Interjet 4O was to apply for TLC-BOG, would that be considered as Mexico City - Bogota city pair too?

They wouldn't stand a chance at competing with the rest of the airlines flying numerous daily frequencies into MEX.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 47):
Has VVC runway been extended lately? How are the talks of making it a secondary Bogota airport?

Talk about the early nineties.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 46):
Kriete is the chairman of the board of Avianca-Taca!

I know what he is!!!!

But people can make mistakes during interviews or press can make a transcription error, it's not the first time an airline official makes a statement that's not entirely accurate.

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