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drerx7
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Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:23 pm

http://www.fly2houston.com/0/3919418/0/83280D83283/

Now for UA's response...methinks they will try and move the IAH-AKL route to the west coast or something like that.

[Edited 2012-04-09 16:26:33]
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:36 pm

I doubt they'd move the AKL route. However, other routes could be impacted. From what we've heard so far, WN would be flying short international routes. That shouldn't pose a competition issue for S.America, Europe or Asia/Pacific routes on UA.

UA will certainly rattle sabres and issue all sorts of dire predictions.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 1):


UA will certainly rattle sabres and issue all sorts of dire predictions.

The proposal shows 5 gates initially expandable to 9 gates long term. It will be a thorn in UA's side but will hardly decimate the global hub they have at IAH. Let 'em rattle their sabres.
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:46 pm

Why should Houston care what some airline headquartered in Chicago thinks about this.
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Thread starter):
Now for UA's response...methinks they will try and move the IAH-AKL route to the west coast or something like that.

That doesn't sound too smart. They're trying to compete against the QANTAS SYD-DFW and DFW-BNE-SYD flights. Anyone who has to double connect to the west coast to get onto a flight to New Zealand or Australia would find it much more convenient to fly QANTAS out of DFW
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:59 am

There are other cities in the US that have more than one international airport. Why not Houston?
 
ouboy79
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 5):

There are other cities in the US that have more than one international airport. Why not Houston?

Pretty much. UA just wants to cry about it.
 
BCEaglesCO757
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:59 am

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 3):
Why should Houston care what some airline headquartered in Chicago thinks about this.

Because despite losing the HQ's to Chicago, IAH as a hub was larger than ORD before the merger.

After the merger is is the largest Hub in United's system and growing.

It's a nice feather to have in your hat when trying to attract business to the city, as the hub in IAH could could connect companies to major business centers. Especially your energy crowd.

WN will probably offer some attractive destinations. Will they have a global reach from HOU ?

How will passengers connecting from say MEX.CUN,CZM,SAL,or GUA connect onto NRT,LHR,FRA ,AMS ? drive the nearly 40-50 miles from HOU to IAH ?

How many connections can WN offer non-stops from Mexico-Central America via hobby ? If passengers have to interline they've going to have spend some time and money to drive from HOU-IAH. Plus buy another ticket as WN does not have any agreements with anyone.

I totally understand being upset about about losing the HQ's. UA is still one of the larger employers,employing 17,000 currently. IAH has seen expansion and the new LOS route.

Diaz and Parker are making business decisions based on emotions.

I wish people would stop comparing Houston to New York having two international airports. Because a MSA of about 20 million versus 6 million is really comparable   
 
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drerx7
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:08 am

So...you are saying WN should not be allowed to fly international from HOU?
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steex
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 7):
I wish people would stop comparing Houston to New York having two international airports. Because a MSA of about 20 million versus 6 million is really comparable

Nobody specifically compared Houston to New York (at least not in this thread). New York isn't the only metro area with more than one international airport. Sure, Houston's 6+ million people isn't comparable to New York's 22+ million (going by CSAs), but is it comparable to the Bay Area's ~7.5 million? They have international service at all three of SFO, SJC, and OAK.

It's not like the expectation is for WN to develop a major international hub that rivals IAH similar to EWR vs. JFK. Allowing HOU to become an international airport would simply allow WN the ability to fly to Mexico, Central America, and northern South America to augment their domestic services. It also would potentially allow carriers from those regions another option for Houston service moving forward, which I could definitely see being appealing to Mexican LCCs.
 
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drerx7
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting steex (Reply 9):
ouston service moving forward, which I could definitely see being appealing to Mexican LCCs.

Right, as a side note they specifically mentioned that the 5 proposed gates could fit any 737 or 320 variant FWIW.
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ouboy79
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:20 am

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 7):
How will passengers connecting from say MEX.CUN,CZM,SAL,or GUA connect onto NRT,LHR,FRA ,AMS ? drive the nearly 40-50 miles from HOU to IAH ?

Why is this even a question? WN isn't going to NRT, LHR, etc. People flying WN aren't going to be connecting to anyone...WN doesn't interline. If airlines want to feed their network, they need to offer the service. WN is wanting these routes to feed their network.

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 7):
How many connections can WN offer non-stops from Mexico-Central America via hobby ? If passengers have to interline they've going to have spend some time and money to drive from HOU-IAH. Plus buy another ticket as WN does not have any agreements with anyone.

Again. WN doesn't interline. So this is all a pointless...errr...point. People will not be flying WN from Latin America to connect to UA at IAH. Are they flying on UA into IAH to interline on domestic WN flights? Not really.

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 7):
I wish people would stop comparing Houston to New York having two international airports. Because a MSA of about 20 million versus 6 million is really comparable   

I wish people would use common sense before posting, but then again we don't always get what we want. :-P

I really don't see why WN should be kept from expanding internationally to benefit THEIR network. They aren't wanting to fly to these places to feed other airlines or replace them. The whole concept of people interlining and transferring between IAH and HOU is just foolish. Could it happen? Sure, but it won't be easy.
 
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modernArt
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 7):
Will they have a global reach from HOU ?

Somebody flying from Kansas City to see relatives in Central America doesn't need nor care for the global reach of United.

Quoting BCEaglesCO757 (Reply 7):
How will passengers connecting from say MEX.CUN,CZM,SAL,or GUA connect onto NRT,LHR,FRA

None. But they will potentially connect thousands to places like San Antonio, Las Vegas, Nashville, Denver, et al.
 
apodino
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:21 am

No surprise here...and I think very wise for Houston to call United's Bluff on this.

The other thing here to note though is that the International capable gates are going to be common use, which means that some other carrier (Aeromexico maybe) could start international service at HOU as well. If United wants to see how this works...all they have to do is look at ORD and MDW for a good example.

The other thing is, where else is UA going to move some of the IAH service to? There is no other airport in the system that works as well for a latin america feed as IAH, and there is a need for some service over both oceans from IAH. Granted, it isn't going to become SFO to Asia, or EWR to Europe, but at the same time, both airports are maxed out. where IAH is spacious and can expand, not to mention a huge population base and a lot of fortune 500's.
 
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:25 am

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 3):
Why should Houston care what some airline headquartered in Chicago thinks about this.

Because WN will only take you to the beach and United connects you to the world. Which is more important to the CIty of Houston in the long run?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
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fxramper
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:46 am

I think this is a PR job for WN. They can't go very far anywhere with a 737.

Quoting drerx7 (Thread starter):
Now for UA's response...methinks they will try and move the IAH-AKL route to the west coast or something like that.

Your kidding, right?

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 1):
UA will certainly rattle sabres and issue all sorts of dire predictions.

Serious? UA will destroy any attempt WN makes from HOU.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:46 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 15):
They can't go very far anywhere with a 737.

Just to illustrate that this isn't technically true - but clearly WN won't do it - CM flies their 737s over 3,300 miles non-stop, e.g. PTY-MVD.
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Type-Rated
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:16 am

On the news tonight: Remember the city said that if there will be international flights from HOU, then Southwest will pay for the facilities used by them. They emphasized that no city money will be spent on this. I think that if Southwest paid for these gates I don't think they would be common use.
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yellowtail
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 9):
Nobody specifically compared Houston to New York (at least not in this thread). New York isn't the only metro area with more than one international airport. Sure, Houston's 6+ million people isn't comparable to New York's 22+ million (going by CSAs), but is it comparable to the Bay Area's ~7.5 million? They have international service at all three of SFO, SJC, and OAK.

Folks, you forget how far IAH is from HOU...it is the equivalent of FLL and MIA. The airports serve 2 different markets.
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Jerseyguy
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 14):
Because WN will only take you to the beach and United connects you to the world. Which is more important to the CIty of Houston in the long run?

How is this going to hurt the city of Houston? UA isn't going to do anything to Houston if they allow this, their in a business to make money and their flight decisions arent based on personal feelings.
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drerx7
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 14):
Because WN will only take you to the beach and United connects you to the world. Which is more important to the CIty of Houston in the long run?

Not accurate. Business is business, and if United didn't connect Houston to the world the other international carriers will. Look at what happened during CO stagnation at IAH in favor of EWR...the foreign carriers flourished.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 15):
Your kidding, right?

Ask Smisek that. They mentioned redeploying 787s elsewhere when they first got wind of WN plans.
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klwright69
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:31 pm

Honestly, it may be healthy for UA. They could differentiate themselves from WN on international routes where they compete.
 
BC77008
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:51 pm

You don't show up down here in Houston, Texas making threats and I think Smisek and team know this. IMO Smisek doesn't do such a good job at running an airline but he does know how to make the numbers look good. At the end of the day, if Houston is pulling in good numbers then there will be no retaliation for allowing Southwest to proceed with it's Hobby plan.
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2travel2know2
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:55 pm

If HOU gets a F.I.S. and WN won't fly HOU-PTY, then CM could fly there.
As in NYC, CM won't fly to the same airport used by CO (now UA).
CM flying to HOU could take care of real Houston O/D (enough for an E190 service couple of days per week) while UA IAH could take care of connecting traffic.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
hohd
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:57 pm

What is UA afraid of? A little competition for some of its leisure destinations to Mexico or C. America ? Most of these travellers are price sensitive and may not be profitable for UA anyway. And we are talking about just a few cities. Southwest is going to pay 100% of the cost of building the terminal. It is no cost to the city. IAH has now the highest hub airfares in the country and especially to Mexico/Central America it is quite high.

My and my family travelled many times to Mexico, Central America, No. South America and we had to use my Onepass miles to do it since prices were outrageous. Some of my friends who wanted to come with me, but bailed after checking the fares. Most of them I know go via DFW, Miami or LAX or use TACA/Aeromexico for cheaper fares.

UA is stating that WN is welcome to start international flights from IAH, how about UA starting services from Hobby ?
 
atrude777
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 14):

Because WN will only take you to the beach and United connects you to the world. Which is more important to the CIty of Houston in the long run?

Who cares WHERE the destination is as long as the city of Houston gets those passengers, whether via IAH or HOU. The more they can add, the more money that can enter Houston.

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 22):
Houston is pulling in good numbers then there will be no retaliation for allowing Southwest to proceed with it's Hobby plan.

Absolutely!

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 21):
Honestly, it may be healthy for UA. They could differentiate themselves from WN on international routes where they compete.

Agreed!

Why is UA and those posting here so against it?

1. WN is going to pay for it, you will not, so don't whine about losing money for those who are Houston Residents.

2.There are people in Houston who are equally loyal to Southwest, as there are others equally loyal to United and will fly the respective airline as they so desire regardless of which airport the airline is flying out of. Why does UA care where WN serves intl? UA is NOT going to get that passenger regardless.

If a WN Passenger is going to fly WN out of HOU intl, they are going to do the same at IAH for WN as well. Either way United is not getting that passenger, so why does United care? They are not getting that passenger either way.

Regardless of the carrier, every airport should make every attempt to help ALL carriers wishing to serve. Houston as a city will suffer more by not allowing WN to fly intl out of HOU, then UA will suffer by any amount by WN flying intl at HOU.

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commavia
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:25 pm

United's implied (or not-so-implied) threats to scale back or deemphasize the hub are likely empty, just as were AA's regarding DFW when the whole Wright Amendment debate was raging 5-6 years ago. United recognizes the jewel of a hub they've got in Houston and certainly aren't going to jeopardize that or throw it away simply because Southwest starts flying a few 737s per day to the Caribbean or Central America.

I don't think one could honestly disagree with Southwest's assertion that adding more capacity, and more flights, to their Hobby hub - whether those flights are domestic or international - would tend to strengthen that hub and, by extension, that airport (of which Southwest's hub comprises virtually all the capacity).

Nonetheless, I also do think United does have a legitimate point in saying that, just as added traffic at Hobby will tend to strengthen connecting traffic flows and "lift all boats" at that hub, to the extent that those added traffic flows come as a result of share shift from United's existing flights on overlapping routes to Bush, that share shift would tend to weaken some connecting traffic flows to the overall detriment of United's existing hub.

The fact that many of the shorter-haul (i.e., within 737 range) international markets Southwest could plausibly serve from Houston are likely some of United's most profitable (high-volume, low-competition VFR markets in Mexico/Central America, etc.) only further serves to explain and reinforce why United is so opposed to this.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:43 pm

This international flights @ HOU issue kind of remind me when AA added capacity from FLL to some of it major international markets nearby just to stop other airline(s) to grab a share of their market.
If UA is so concern about WN taking Houston international O/D passengers from them, it's UA which should add some service out of HOU with smaller yet cost-effective aircraft to its key profitable destinations in Mexico, Central America and Caribbean before WN does it.
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slider
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 17):
On the news tonight: Remember the city said that if there will be international flights from HOU, then Southwest will pay for the facilities used by them. They emphasized that no city money will be spent on this. I think that if Southwest paid for these gates I don't think they would be common use.

But that's a fallacy ultimately and the media is doing a terrible job of telling this story. Once again, the teflon WN gets a free pass and plays that whole 'david/goliath' card which is a crock.

If you fly internationally, you need FIS and Customs. Those are Federal resources. IAH is already understaffed and behind complement given the growth of other intl flying at IAH.

Throw HOU into the mix, and where are those resources coming from? That's the question no one seems to want to broach with WN. So it's all well and good that they want to built their own terminal, but that's a very small piece of the overall puzzle.

Moreover, since WN is non-IATA, there's no connectivity, alliance feed, etc at HOU if they were to do it. It's a massive waste of resources when IAH has the intl capability now, the airfield capacity, and HAS is failing if it wants to treat HOU as IAH...it's ridiculous, actually.

I don't think UA is afraid of the competition per se--that angle has been overworked already--but the points are valid given the fight CO and now UA has to wage all the time with HAS. Remember, for the Term E project, it was CO that was the general contractor, project lead and that's why it came in on time and under budget. The FIS facility, however, speared by HAS, went grossly over schedule and was also over budget if I recall. If Houston wants to build the goodness that's been going on for some time, they should focus on IAH for intl growth, not HOU.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:10 pm

Simply put, United wants to avoid further competition so whatever restrictions Hobby operates under the better. Every passenger on WN is potentially one less passenger on UA.

Look at AA and its die hard opposition to lifting of the Wright Amendment at Dallas Love.


At the end, I do hope Hobby does open up. The more options for the consumer the better.

The theory of protecting IAH as the Houston gateway does not do anything for anyone but protecting the United hub, and was the exact same line of argument used by AA to keep things under wrap at Love.
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slider
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 31):
Simply put, United wants to avoid further competition so whatever restrictions Hobby operates under the better. Every passenger on WN is potentially one less passenger on UA.

Look at AA and its die hard opposition to lifting of the Wright Amendment at Dallas Love.


At the end, I do hope Hobby does open up. The more options for the consumer the better.

The theory of protecting IAH as the Houston gateway does not do anything for anyone but protecting the United hub, and was the exact same line of argument used by AA to keep things under wrap at Love.

Not a valid comparison in context.

For DECADES, WN operated practically rent free at DAL. They had the mother of all sweetheart deals and the Wright Amendment, while I was and remain against it on principle, was an artificial inhibitor. They should have pulled the lid off and then charged WN regular DFW rates for rents, landing fees, etc. They got the benefit, especially in their infancy and maturation eras, of having the deck stacked in their favor.

They now seek that same thing--taking a domestic older airport that was kept open and now trying to grow it for incremental revenue. I don't have a problem with the competition part of this, even if UA might (and apparently does), but the FIS facility, staffing and resources are entirely valid points that even intl carriers have taken note of.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 3):
Why should Houston care what some airline headquartered in Chicago thinks about this.
Quoting apodino (Reply 13):
No surprise here...and I think very wise for Houston to call United's Bluff on this.
Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 19):
How is this going to hurt the city of Houston? UA isn't going to do anything to Houston if they allow this, their in a business to make money and their flight decisions arent based on personal feelings.
Quoting BC77008 (Reply 22):
if Houston is pulling in good numbers then there will be no retaliation for allowing Southwest to proceed with it's Hobby plan.

Here is the one response I can make to all of you. CO and now UA has been a tremendous partner to the city of Houston. Recently Smisek signed up for $1B in terminal improvements at the airport.

This is all under the pretense that there would be ONE international airport in Houston - IAH. Which is what the government promised UA/CO for all these years.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 17):
On the news tonight: Remember the city said that if there will be international flights from HOU, then Southwest will pay for the facilities used by them. They emphasized that no city money will be spent on this. I think that if Southwest paid for these gates I don't think they would be common use.

While I agree that no city money will be spent on new facilities at HOU, I'm not so sure WN is going to be the one paying for the facilities.

The memorandum to the Mayor from HAS Aviation Director says that Southwest is proposing the project be funded by increasing HOU's PFC from $3.00 to $4.50. It goes on to say that all incremental operating costs would be covered by a common use fee charged to the specific airlines using the FIS.

As far as WN just picking up stakes and moving to IAH, the aviation director noted that there are insufficient gates to accommodate a complete relocation of Southwest, absent construction of a new terminal. Doing so would cost the City and Southwest between $500million and $1billion, redundantly duplicate the recent investment recently completed at Hobby, and could leave Hobby with only non-commercial general aviation traffic and an unworkable cost structure.

LoneStarMike
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 32):
For DECADES, WN operated practically rent free at DAL. They had the mother of all sweetheart deals and the Wright Amendment, while I was and remain against it on principle, was an artificial inhibitor. They should have pulled the lid off and then charged WN regular DFW rates for rents, landing fees, etc.

1. Any airline could have operated under the terms of the Wright Amendment along side WN long before WN became the powerhouse it is today. No one chose to.

2. DAL has a completely different cost structure than DFW. Assessing DFW rates on DAL operations would have been a disaster for the City of Dallas and sent virtually all traffic away.
 
n471wn
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 33):
This is all under the pretense that there would be ONE international airport in Houston - IAH. Which is what the government promised UA/CO for all these years.

United has no clothes in this dispute-----as Cleveland is finding out, nothing is or should be forever and times have changed and for Houston to miss this opportunity to work with SWA would be one of the more stupid mistakes they could ever make!!
 
commavia
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:52 pm

Interesting ...

News reports from AvWeek are now beginning to delve more deeply in the Southwest/City of Houston claims and underlying analyses, and the United claims and analyses in rebuttal.

According to United and William Swelbar (a well-known aviation economist and MIT academic they paid to run their analyses), the City of Houston's analysis used to support international service from Hobby implicitly assumes that "fares will go down 55% and traffic will grow by 181% in the local market" when Southwest enters these international markets. To the extent that that is true, I agree with United that presumption is simply unrealistic in today's environment. As any casual observer of Southwest and the industry overall in recent years would likely agree, assuming that simply the mere presence of Southwest entering a market is highly unlikely, in this day and age, to lead to 181% O&D stimulation.

The United analysis also apparently identified specific markets where added competition on international routes would lead to reduced traffic flows and require a decrease in capacity from United. The United analysis apparently identifies 30 markets where service would need to decrease, and 4 where it would need to end altogether, as part of an overall 6% capacity reduction projected for the entire hub. Further, this conclusion leads to the conclusion, by extension, that United would have to lay off about 1,700 workers and forgo the recently-announced capital investment.

Perhaps most critically, and most centrally to United's protests, is the ultimate conclusion that, "the negative impact of the required schedule reduction by United at IAH in response to the introduction of redundant international service at Hobby will overwhelm the expected modest increase in traffic at Hobby that might be created." In essence - United doesn't dispute that Southwest at Hobby would obviously lead to some traffic stimulation and growth there (although United does dispute the level of stimulation), but it claims that more traffic net-net will be lost at Bush than will be gained at Hobby.

Again - I think many of United's threats likely are empty, and I don't for a second think the Bush hub is in question no matter which way things end up going at Hobby. Nonetheless, some of the claims by United - if true - certainly do raise some questions about the veracity of the Southwest/City analyses. But, alas, I suppose that is to be expected - of course both sides are going to put into their report whatever ground rules and assumptions they think they can plauisbly get away with that are most likely to tend to favor their position.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
If you fly internationally, you need FIS and Customs. Those are Federal resources. IAH is already understaffed and behind complement given the growth of other intl flying at IAH.

Wouldn't they still have to hire more customs agents if Southwest moved to IAH?

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
Throw HOU into the mix, and where are those resources coming from? That's the question no one seems to want to broach with WN. So it's all well and good that they want to built their own terminal, but that's a very small piece of the overall puzzle.

Are you asking where the money is coming from to pay for the staffing of more customs agents?

United says global Hobby would cost jobs, flights at IAH

Quote:
But Hart said that even if Southwest doesn't prove competitive at Hobby, United is concerned that federal budget restraints will stretch Customs officers too thin between Hobby and Bush, which United contends already is understaffed.

"This is a huge issue for us and Southwest has yet to operate an international flight, so I don't expect them to understand it," Hart said.

Kelly dismissed the staffing issue Tuesday, saying it is paid for by a $17.50-per-international-passenger fee.

Is that not correct?

LoneStarMike
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 32):
They should have pulled the lid off and then charged WN regular DFW rates for rents, landing fees, etc.

Why? Each airport has its own cost structure. Why should DAL fees have anything to do with DFW?

It actually would be illegal what you suggest cross subsidize DFW with fees at DAL even if it there was a single airport authority that ran both. (look at how LAWA must firewall LAX vs ONT vs VNY)

Quoting slider (Reply 32):
They now seek that same thing-

I thought you just said its not a valid comparison between HOU and DAL, but you are making it as well.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
The United analysis also apparently identified specific markets where added competition on international routes would lead to reduced traffic flows and require a decrease in capacity from United. The United analysis apparently identifies 30 markets where service would need to decrease, and 4 where it would need to end altogether

Ah poor United.

The inability to face competition is more a problem for CO/UA. For years they have enjoyed essentially monopoly position in virtually all Houston-LatAm/Carrib markets (with some amazing high O&D fares to show).

With a little competition in the future they certainly will see their margins erode, but its ultimately up to UA themselves to either become more competitive, lower their cost, or cede the market if they cant compete. Its the way the open market works.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
steex
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
But, alas, I suppose that is to be expected - of course both sides are going to put into their report whatever ground rules and assumptions they think they can plauisbly get away with that are most likely to tend to favor their position.

That's really the issue. Nothing put out by either WN or UA can be taken at face value since they're both going to skew their assumptions and statements to the extreme direction that best makes their point.
 
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drerx7
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 33):
Which is what the government promised UA/CO for all these years.

There are no restrictions on Hobby and no agreement in place besides the fact that there was no commercial FIS at HOU. The fact of the matter is that there is no legitimate or legal reason to stop WN at HOU. The other issue is that the City of Houston has hired seperate entities to analyze the impact, so it is not as onesided as people think. Personally I want them to start because we are getting reemed by UA down here on fares. My flight to BWI and LGA this weekend is damn near $600.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
BC77008
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 33):

"This is all under the pretense that there would be ONE international airport in Houston - IAH. Which is what the government promised UA/CO for all these years."


This promise should have been made in writing. Smisek is a lawyer after all. If he didn't get a promise in writing, then that's his mistake.
"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
 
splitterz
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:35 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 11):

I really don't see why WN should be kept from expanding internationally to benefit THEIR network. They aren't wanting to fly to these places to feed other airlines or replace them. The whole concept of people interlining and transferring between IAH and HOU is just foolish. Could it happen? Sure, but it won't be easy.

They shouldn't. But why should Houston have to build WN a customs facility in HOU?
 
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drerx7
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting Splitterz (Reply 43):
They shouldn't. But why should Houston have to build WN a customs facility in HOU?

Because it would benefit Houston if other carriers utilized it, its not an exclusive use facility. In fact, Did anybody bother to look at the attachments on HAS? It looks as though the FIS staffing may come from the existing staff that operates for private ops as they specifically outline that their will be apron space for private aircraft to utilize the FIS. It looks as tho the existing FIS will be folded "moved" if you will to the terminal.

I am just not sold that 5 gates will decrease the amount of traffic in Houston and IAH - it doesn't seem like sound logic. In the event that UA does scale back or lose traffic then the market will be right sized or other carriers will come in. Just like Emirates, Singapore, Viva Aerobus, Alaska, and Qatar all set up shop underneath the stagnation of Continental. I've said it before - if fares will be dropped then it will stimulate pax for both carriers. If UA matches WN fares internationally - I and every other loyal ff on UA will still fly UA. Now WN pax may go back to WN for their international travel...if they travelled internationally to that extent to begin with.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
slider
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 38):
Wouldn't they still have to hire more customs agents if Southwest moved to IAH?

Perhaps incrementally--especially since theyre ALREADY short staffed. But to have a total redundant staff at HOU would be grossly inefficient because it would drive more net headcount overall.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 38):
Is that not correct?

On factual basis, yes, but again as I stated, the per intl pax fee isn't even covering the impact of all intl flights in IAH right now! And that includes not just UA, but also KL, AF, BA, EK, QR, SQ, etc, etc....
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 42):
This promise should have been made in writing. Smisek is a lawyer after all. If he didn't get a promise in writing, then that's his mistake.

Correct.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 41):
Personally I want them to start because we are getting reemed by UA down here on fares. My flight to BWI and LGA this weekend is damn near $600.

This will have zero effect on that. This agreement is for INTL flights. Last time I checked HOU, BWI and LGA are all domestic destinations....
 
apodino
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:44 pm

Thinking outside the box here. If WN adds more Int'l flights to HOU...that means that the Houston Airports would collect more in PFC's and Landing fees. This would add revenue to the Houston Airports System, which would not only help HOU, but also IAH as well, so this is a win for UA because more revenue for the Houston Airports means that UA is unlikely to see an increase in PFC's or Landing fees in the near future. Additionally, if this is bankrolled by WN, the additional revenue would be more likely to be spent improving IAH than HOU.

Increased competition aside, this could actually benefit UA in the long run.
 
usflyguy
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 33):

Why didn't UA or CO have a problem with it when the HOU master plan was released several years ago as it includes an international terminal? Obviously Houston had planned for nternational capabilities at Hobby since they included it in the 2003 master plan.

http://system.gocampaign.com/files/file.asp?f=11429
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yellowtail
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 28):
This international flights @ HOU issue kind of remind me when AA added capacity from FLL to some of it major international markets nearby just to stop other airline(s) to grab a share of their market.
If UA is so concern about WN taking Houston international O/D passengers from them, it's UA which should add some service out of HOU with smaller yet cost-effective aircraft to its key profitable destinations in Mexico, Central America and Caribbean before WN does it.

Or better yet, UA should be preemptive and start to drop fares to potential WN destinations now to get people hooked on flying UA. the FF program is a huge retention item. The high fares only bolster the WN case to Houston. For example, I am trying to book some tickets BZE-IAH in August and UA want $846.

Quoting slider (Reply 29):
If you fly internationally, you need FIS and Customs. Those are Federal resources. IAH is already understaffed and behind complement given the growth of other intl flying at IAH.

you got that right....you don't want to be stuck in the arrival line behind QR, EK, BA and SQ....with 4 FIS agents working the line. Its horrible.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
4 where it would need to end altogether

If the market is that thin to those four destination, it would be unlikely that WN would enter. MID I think is one of those destinations.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
Sevensixtyseven
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 15):
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 16):

3365 miles..to be specific..that's at the very edge of the range, but you could do as north as Houston-Anchorage, or as south as Houston-Lima.
The one problem I see is HOU's runway length. They would have to extend 4/22 and maybe 12R/30L by 1000 or 2000 feet..but a look on google maps makes me think that wouldn't be easy. Theoretically possible, but not easy.
Will that ex-HP 752 get delayed...again?
 
splitterz
Posts: 126
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RE: Houston Airport System Supports International HOU

Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 36):
United has no clothes in this dispute-----as Cleveland is finding out, nothing is or should be forever and times have changed and for Houston to miss this opportunity to work with SWA would be one of the more stupid mistakes they could ever make!!

Hardly. WN wouldn't come close to the amount of money that UA brings into the area. I would think they would want to continue that healthy relationship with an airline that has supported the city for a long time.

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