blackwidow
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British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:49 pm

As the British PM: David Cameron embarks on tour of South East Asia its would be unsual not to have a tread on how he got there...????

Who's jumbo is this??

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-Asian-trade-mission.html?ITO=1490
 
chieft
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:51 pm

I guess from British Airways.

[Edited 2012-04-10 06:55:24]
Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:56 pm

Doesn't look like it with that grey underside.
 
offloaded
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 2):

..or the Union Flag that big on the door.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
GCPET
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:05 pm

Tried guessing from this video but not sure who it is. Definitely not BA or VS though who usually ferry the PM around.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...id-cameron-japan-defence-contracts

Any ideas?

GCPET
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AwyrCymru
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:13 pm

From one report I've seen it looked like one of SonAir / Atlas Air's Boeing 747-400s


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chieft
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:34 pm

Sometimes they use a Virgin Atlatic plane. I doubt that the British PM uses a non G-registered aircraft, also for legal reasons...
Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
marky
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting AwyrCymru (Reply 5):
it looked like one of SonAir / Atlas Air's Boeing 747-400s

N322SG was at LHR yesterday with Union Flag markings around the passenger door, so almost certainly correct.

Quoting chieft (Reply 6):
I doubt that the British PM uses a non G-registered aircraft, also for legal reasons...

What 'legal reasons' would prevent it?
 
LHR27C
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting chieft (Reply 6):
Sometimes they use a Virgin Atlatic plane. I doubt that the British PM uses a non G-registered aircraft, also for legal reasons...

Not true, Tony Blair chartered a Swiss registered (Privatair) DC-8 to JNB a few years ago.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
chieft
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting marky (Reply 7):

What 'legal reasons' would prevent it?

Generally speeking, on board of an aircraft, the law of the country of registration applies whenever a plane is in flight, even if it is overflying other countries territories. In flight, is to be read as from the moment the doors close for the purpose of departing, till the reopening of the doors at the gate after arrival.

So, the British PM would be, so to say, on state visist in the US (on a N- registered aircraft) and has to follow their law. Basically a complicated sitiation and a complicated matter itself...
Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
chieft
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:05 pm

OK, obviously it is not that much a problem as I thought and as this picture proofs:



[Edited 2012-04-10 09:06:45]
Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
chieft
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:10 pm

Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
jfk777
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:48 pm

Why do the Queen and prime minister from the UK have the IN-Dignity of leasing a commercial airplane. Third World countries have presidential airplanes. The UK should have an Airbus A330-200 with Rolls engines. That would be Dignified for the PM and The Queen, "Blair Force One" under that PM or " CAM Force One " now.
 
Viscount724
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting LHR27C (Reply 8):
Quoting chieft (Reply 6):
Sometimes they use a Virgin Atlatic plane. I doubt that the British PM uses a non G-registered aircraft, also for legal reasons...

Not true, Tony Blair chartered a Swiss registered (Privatair) DC-8 to JNB a few years ago.

It wasn't Privatair. They have never operated any DC-8s. It was another Swiss VIP operator.
 
jetblast
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):

Why do the Queen and prime minister from the UK have the IN-Dignity of leasing a commercial airplane. Third World countries have presidential airplanes. The UK should have an Airbus A330-200 with Rolls engines. That would be Dignified for the PM and The Queen, "Blair Force One" under that PM or " CAM Force One " now.

There are RAF aircraft that operate Royal and Presidential flights on occasion. For longhaul flights there are plenty of aircraft like this Atlas bird on the market for one-time use, or BA has airplanes that can be easily configured into a Royal Flight configuration.

Just because those third-world countries have presidential airplanes doesn't mean they are in any way cost effective.
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ORDJOE
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
Why do the Queen and prime minister from the UK have the IN-Dignity of leasing a commercial airplane. Third World countries have presidential airplanes. The UK should have an Airbus A330-200 with Rolls engines. That would be Dignified for the PM and The Queen, "Blair Force One" under that PM or " CAM Force One " now.

For the reason the UK is for the most part broke (along with a good deal of 1st world governments). it is refreshing to see them go the reasonable route (PS I do think also all our presidents way over use air force one FWIW)
 
luv2fly
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
Why do the Queen and prime minister from the UK have the IN-Dignity of leasing a commercial airplane. Third World countries have presidential airplanes. The UK should have an Airbus A330-200 with Rolls engines. That would be Dignified for the PM and The Queen, "Blair Force One" under that PM or " CAM Force One " now.



The sheer cost involved with something like that! And BA is the national carrier so it makes sense to use them, the USA does not have a national carrier per say.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
blueflyer
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
Third World countries have presidential airplanes.

Third world countries have planes that reflect the ego and power-hunger of their un-elected leaders. They are as often as not used for shopping trips to New York and Paris instead of official travel.
I am not sure this is the yardstick one should use to measure the (lack of) long-haul British government aircraft.
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
bevisisback
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:21 pm

I am confused.... I thought VS was operating these flights now.
 
jfk777
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting jetblast (Reply 14):
Just because those third-world countries have presidential airplanes doesn't mean they are in any way cost effective.

Yes, airplanes do cost a lot to operate but presidents, monarchs and CEO time is valueable. Making the Queens lease planes is awful.

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 15):
For the reason the UK is for the most part broke (along with a good deal of 1st world governments). it is refreshing to see them go the reasonable route (PS I do think also all our presidents way over use air force one FWIW)

Obama does "overuse" AF1, just flew over my house on its way to Miami for another relection event. How much did the entire Palm Beach County Sheriff Motor Cycle squad cost today ? Way too much ?
 
jetblast
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
Yes, airplanes do cost a lot to operate but presidents, monarchs and CEO time is valueable. Making the Queens lease planes is awful.

How so? The Queen's Royal Flight team puts together the lease arrangements, not The Queen herself.

Whether or not The Queen is on a leased 747 or her own 747 the flight time is still the same, so I'm not sure I understand.

What would they do with the aircraft when it's not being used? It would sit and deteriorate - probably one of the reasons Air Force One is flown so much. It's not cost effective to have such a devoted aircraft and it would appear HM Government agrees.
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Gingersnap
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):

Why do the Queen and prime minister from the UK have the IN-Dignity of leasing a commercial airplane. Third World countries have presidential airplanes. The UK should have an Airbus A330-200 with Rolls engines. That would be Dignified for the PM and The Queen, "Blair Force One" under that PM or " CAM Force One " now.

I believe with the A330MRTT aircraft coming online with the RAF, it would be an excellent idea for our head of state and government to utilise these aircraft for occasions such as this.
Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
 
jetblast
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:39 pm

It's also worth noting that the RAF has an entire group devoted to Royal and VIP operations, No 32 The Royal Squadron. They operate BAe146 and HS125 aircraft, and AW109 helicopters for The Queen and other dignitaries.


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rutankrd
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 15):
For the reason the UK is for the most part broke (along with a good deal of 1st world governments). it is refreshing to see them go the reasonable route (PS I do think also all our presidents way over use air force one FWIW)

UK PLC could stretch to several hundred million right now as we still have AAA credit rating and a stable currency.And are the seventh largest economy.
We can actually fund our debit and have a real strategy for rapid reduction of same .(Unlike the US)
That strategy comes with a negative growth effect however.

The problem is we are governed by the very small minded , Daily Mail and the Murdock press that believe its a waist of public money (Even through its a drop in the ocean of our public spend) to have a dedicated government transport.

The UK should indeed invest in a A318/319CJ with full and secure data links as a matter of national security but we won't any time soon.

As for the lease of HB-IGH by Tony Blair think that was a Private/Labour Party contract and not on government business.

As said normally BA or VS are contracted for government flights.

This visit by the PM to Japan is primarily a Trade mission and is NOT a UK government/ state visit. A significant number of the seats have been SOLD onto UK captains of industry and the media at commercial rates.

The lease rate may well have been fully covered by these sales and have virtually not cost the the UK tax payer.

THe PM has a separate visit arranged into Burma and this may well use a RAF transport later in the week as this is a UK political/government initiative.
 
LHR27C
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):

It wasn't Privatair. They have never operated any DC-8s. It was another Swiss VIP operator.

Yes my mistake, it was HB-IGH which the database lists as Jet Aviation.
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
marky
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting chieft (Reply 9):
the law of the country of registration applies whenever a plane is in flight

Yes, that is true, but I think:

Quoting chieft (Reply 9):
the British PM would be, so to say, on state visist in the US (on a N- registered aircraft)

is probably stretching the point!
 
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Devilfish
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
or " CAM Force One " now.

'CAN'T FORCE ONE' might be more accurate.  .

Quoting jetblast (Reply 22):
and AW109 helicopters for The Queen and other dignitaries.

I think it's a Sikorsky S-76C++ for HM.....

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jumpjets
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:40 pm

Its interesting that the person who is probably least bothered by what she flies in is the Queen - according to Prince Philip if its not a horse she's not interested.

A few years back in her capacity as Queen of New Zealand she flew from London to Auckland on a scheduled Air New Zealand 744 [I think] so as not to cost the new Zealanders too much by sending a plane especially for her. I seem to recall a chunk of the front of the plane was drasitcally reconfigured to give her a suitably regal travel environment but behind the curtain were Jo Public on the way to visit their rellies down under.
 
lhrnue
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:03 pm

It is quite funny how small the Union Jack sticker is, while being quite effective in the close up. Although somebody missed that the left side disappears behind the door.
 
1stfl94
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 12):
Why do the Queen and prime minister from the UK have the IN-Dignity of leasing a commercial airplane.

The Queen can effectively have a private jet as BA can convert 777s to a VIP config pretty quickly (there's recent post about this), better an existing plane that a taxpayer funded jet that spends half its time on the ground.

Be interesting to see what the US does once AF1 needs replacement, the planes are about 20 years old now, this is something going to come up soon
 
AirbusA6
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:37 pm

It would be nice if the UK could buy a secondhand A340-500, as these seem to be going pretty cheap these days, so would be much more cost effective than a new A330 say. But as it never happened during the boom years, it'll certainly never happen during the recession, when the PM is desperately trying to show he shares the pain!
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
something
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
How much did the entire Palm Beach County Sheriff Motor Cycle squad cost today ? Way too much ?

The queen should have her own private wide body jet, funded by tax money, but the president can't have a motor cycle squad. Understandable.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 23):
The UK should indeed invest in a A318/319CJ with full and secure data links as a matter of national security but we won't any time soon.

invest

Pronunciation: /ɪnˈvɛst/
verb
[with object]
1put (money) into financial schemes, shares, property, or a commercial venture with the expectation of achieving a profit:
the company is to invest £12 m in its manufacturing site at Linlithglow

So how exactly would such a jet earn any money?
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
jourdan747
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:20 am

Looks like an Atlas Air 747-400
 
nipoel123
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:44 am

Quoting marky (Reply 25):
Quoting chieft (Reply 9): the law of the country of registration applies whenever a plane is in flight
Yes, that is true, but I think:

Quoting chieft (Reply 9):the British PM would be, so to say, on state visist in the US (on a N- registered aircraft)
is probably stretching the point!

As far as I know, a, for example, G-registered overflying the US is subject to the laws from both countries, whichever is more restrictive. Take a fictional speed limit as an example. If the speedlimit between say FL350 and FL450 is 400KIAS in the UK, but 350KIAS in the US, then the plane would be prohibited to exceed 350KIAS is US airspace. If it were the other way around, 350KIAS in the UK and 400KIAS in the US, the Queen's plane would still be prohibited to exceed 350KIAS in US airspace.

On a side note: above open waters (no territorial waters) the rules of the country of registration apply.
one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
 
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propellix
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:53 am

As soon as the RAFs A330 MRTTs are available, I´d think that for a true state visit, they´d be available. Using the crabby old VC10s would be a nightmare both from the standing (using a 40+ year old plane) and from the reliability.
 
IH8BY
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:04 am

We aren't the only people interested in what the PM was flying, it appears. The words 'mountain' and 'molehill' come to mind, however... The paper states the reasons why a charter aircraft was chosen - and then ignores them for the rest of the article!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ron-flies-Tokyo-Angolan-plane.html
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
 
AirbusA6
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting propellix (Reply 35):
As soon as the RAFs A330 MRTTs are available, I´d think that for a true state visit, they´d be available. Using the crabby old VC10s would be a nightmare both from the standing (using a 40+ year old plane) and from the reliability.

The VC10s haven't been used for state visits for ages, but would be a cool way of flying around!

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 36):
We aren't the only people interested in what the PM was flying, it appears. The words 'mountain' and 'molehill' come to mind, however... The paper states the reasons why a charter aircraft was chosen - and then ignores them for the rest of the article!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti....html

Typical Daily Mail angle, though it is slightly embarrassing that he's ended up using an Angolan owned 747 on a buy British trade mission!
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
aloges
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:37 am

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 36):
The paper states the reasons why a charter aircraft was chosen - and then ignores them for the rest of the article!

It's the Mail, what were you expecting them to do?  
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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GCT64
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:19 am

Quoting jetblast (Reply 22):
It's also worth noting that the RAF has an entire group devoted to Royal and VIP operations, No 32 The Royal Squadron

That was more true 10 years ago than it is now. Quite a lot of 32 Sqn's taskings are now operationally focused with HS125 and BAe146 aircraft forward deployed in the Middle East and Afghanistan. A lot of the thrust for this has, I understand, come from 32 Sqn who want to make sure that they are seen as militarily relevant in the modern cost-cutting world.

On the broader point, as a UK taxpayer, I am very happy that we don't "invest" in a head of state aircraft. I have no idea how the French government justifies their $363M A330 (especially in the current economic climate), but that is their taxpayer's problem. (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2011-10-03/public-portrait-sarkozys-a330-french-gao-flags-cost-overrun)
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,B190,(..54 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
LOWS
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 29):
Be interesting to see what the US does once AF1 needs replacement, the planes are about 20 years old now, this is something going to come up soon

Didn't this come up under the late Bush Administration? As I recall, they kept adding things to the helicopter that the price kept rising. When the current administration took office, they canceled it.
 
Fabo
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:32 am

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 29):
Be interesting to see what the US does once AF1 needs replacement, the planes are about 20 years old now, this is something going to come up soon

I think I read somewhere about 747-8 being built for the USAF eventually... I guess after they prove themselves in service?
The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
 
0newair0
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 39):
Didn't this come up under the late Bush Administration? As I recall, they kept adding things to the helicopter that the price kept rising. When the current administration took office, they canceled it.

The program actually started right after 9/11 and was supposed to be complete in 2009 or 2010; however, the program kept having delays and the cost doubled (possibly more than doubled) so the program was canceled.

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 15):
(PS I do think also all our presidents way over use air force one FWIW)

Secret Service has more to do with the use of Air Force One than the President does. Security and operational reasons. The President says where he wants to go. Secret Service figures out how to get him there and provide protection for the trip.
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
 
chieft
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:22 pm

By the way, and a bit OT:

Air Force One is every USAF aircraft called, in which the US President flies, it is a call sign only and not dedicated to a certain aircraft.

The presently operated VC-25As are expected to be replaced, as they have become less cost-effective to operate. The USAF has been ordered to look into possible replacements, including the new Boeing 747-8 and the Airbus A380. In January 2009, the Air Force Materiel Command issued a new requirement for a replacement aircraft to enter service beginning in 2017. In January 2009 Airbus announced they will not bid on the program, fearing a technology transfer to the US and leaving Boeing the sole bidder, with either their Boeing 747–8 or Boeing 787 Dreamliner being proposed.
Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
qf002
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:42 pm

Pfft... Even little old Julia Gillard down here has her own plane...
 
mikey72
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:54 am

The American President and the Queen...LOL

I sleep better knowing that in the event of WW3 the commander in chief of the worlds largest military arsenal and economy is safely esconsed on board a virtual flying White House/Norad/Pentagon.

I think the USA owe the rest of the western world that assurance.

The existence of Air Force One in my opinion has little to do with prestige.

As for Her Majesty...she's hardly in position where she needs to ''promote'' herself.....

[Edited 2012-04-12 23:55:22]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
bthebest
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:53 am

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 35):
We aren't the only people interested in what the PM was flying, it appears. The words 'mountain' and 'molehill' come to mind, however... The paper states the reasons why a charter aircraft was chosen - and then ignores them for the rest of the article!

What annoys me about all these articles is they keep saying 'He flew on an Angolan jet' etc. The aircraft is US registered, and OWNED by Atlas Air, but operated for SonAir - in Atlas colours!

Yes, it is not ideal using a non-british aircraft for a UK trade visit, but the media blow it all out of proportion by getting their facts wrong about the ownership of the aircraft.
 
mikey72
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:07 am

I personally (speaking as a Brit) always used to enjoy the spectacle of the Queen or the P.M arriving somewhere on Concorde.

Not that it happened very often.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
rfields5421
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting chieft (Reply 9):
So, the British PM would be, so to say, on state visist in the US (on a N- registered aircraft) and has to follow their law.

It is a realtively simple common process to extend diplomatic immunity coverage of a foreign leader to the aircraft, vehicles, ship used by that foreign leader to transit to another nation.

US law would never overrule UK law in a case like this where an N registered aircraft was chartered as an official instrument of the UK government.

Somewhat complicated - Yes. But anything involving the leader of a nation is complicated.

Yes, I know the Queen and the PM each have different official capacities - but to the non-commonwealth host nations such distinctions don't matter - the PM is treated a head of state, as is the Queen when she visits.
 
CaptainKramer
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RE: British Pm In Japan - How?

Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:03 pm

I read that the Government wanted to hire a British Airways aircraft for Camerons trip, but none were available for the specific dates required, hence the Atlas jet hire.

The VC-10 or the RAF militarised versions have been used on numerous occasions for official Government missions the then Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon flew out on one to Cairo to attend a joint military exercise held in Alexandra.

Robin Cook while U.K. Foreign Secretary flew to West Africa on a RAF VC-10. On another occassion a BAC111 was hired for Cooks visit to the Middle East, mainly to discuss matters of peace in the region, so arriving in a Military aircraft would have sent the wrong message. On another Cook visit to the Middle East, specifically Saudi Arabia and Kuwait the RAF VC-10 was used mainly because there was no issues regarding noise restrictions on the aircraft. I believe noise restrictions placed on the aircraft was the main contributing factor that prevented the VC-10 from being used anymore and not reliability issues.

In another instance the then Foreign Secreatary Jack Straw travelled with his French counter part to Central Africa on the French Governments A310 as part of a joint visit. On another trip to India Jack Straw flew on a B737 biz jet hired out of Switzerland.

The above examples are work arounds to show how you don't need a dedicated aircaft to get the job done. A plane is a plane, designed to get you from A to B after all.

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