booforty
Topic Author
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Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:23 pm

CY launch new daily ATH to LHR from October using A321.

ATH 18:40 - 20:45 LHR 4h05
LHR 22:00 - 03:35 +1 ATH 3h35

Why would CY launch such a route?

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus-airways/new-cy-route/20120410

[Edited 2012-04-10 08:27:54]
 
Joost
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting booforty (Thread starter):
Why would CY launch such a route?

It looks much like a 'slot-warmer', or at any case, a route to make slightly more money (or: less losses) on their LHR-slot compared to using it from Cyprus.
 
cyba
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting booforty (Thread starter):
Why would CY launch such a route?

You ask that question suggesting there is logic to what they do. There isn't.

Or if there is it goes something like this:
- Oops, we have too much capacity and
- though we offloaded our 330s...
- we went out and got us the next biggest plane, the 321 and
- there isn't enough demand on LCA-LHR for such a plane in winter especially not since...
- A3 launched year-round LCA-LHR also...
- damn those Greeks, we'll show them.
- and anyway what else can we do with our slots and our aircraft. We have to fly them somewhere... (also important that FR has joined U2 in flying year round to London from PFO but they can't really compete against FR so what will they do!)

Except that:
- they're bleeding money and the government (ie the Cypriot taxpayer) is still supporting them directly or indirectly and
- the rationale for support is that they are important for the Cypriot tourism industry except that...
- ahem... flying ATH-SKG and ATH-LHR is NOT supporting the Cypriot tourism industry at all.

So hopefully before too long some smart guy will figure this out and pull the plug on the whole sad affair. THough don't hold your breath. There's elections in early 2013 and no politician will want to be seen to be pulling the plug quite yet. Unless their hand is forced by market forces?

I wonder how long for instance before A3 launch a complaint for unfair competition.

Rant over.
 
booforty
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting Cyba (Reply 2):
You ask that question suggesting there is logic to what they do. There isn't.

No, I simply asked the question to see what people's views are!

I have no idea what their logic is...

Stemming losses whilst still retaining their LHR slots seems to make some sense but surely this is a highly competitive route?
 
cyba
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting booforty (Reply 3):

Stemming losses whilst still retaining their LHR slots seems to make some sense but surely this is a highly competitive route?

Yes, if this were a commercial business. But this is a business in effect sustained by taxpayers' money so no. And if they cannot sustain a route to Cyprus using those slots (and using Cypriot taxpayers' money) then sell the slots to the highest bidder and money goes back to the government coffers. Or worst case? Rent out the slots. Instead they're going head to head with A3, with very strong presence on the route, strong customer loyalty in a market that cannot possibly be growing - not with Greece's current problems. Heck if it were growing A3 wouldn't have used one of its own slot pairs to start the LCA route in the first place !!!

Arghhhhh!!!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting Cyba (Reply 2):

I wonder how long for instance before A3 launch a complaint for unfair competition.

The EU single market agreement permits all EU-based carriers to fly anywhere they want in the EU.
 
cyba
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):

The EU single market agreement permits all EU-based carriers to fly anywhere they want in the EU.

Thanks, yes i'm fully aware of that. Hence A3 can fly LHR-LCA too  

The trouble is that CY is a carrier that lost €20m (IIRC) in 2011. A carrier of this size and operating in a strictly commercial environment would not survive with such losses. If CY is still flying today it's because of the explicit or implicit support of the government. Hence presenting unfair competition to A3 who has no similar benefits.

Anyway, I wish them the best but I'm not hopeful.
 
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OA260
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:34 pm

I want what the head of CY is smoking what a waste of A/C and slots. If it works for them then good luck to them. At least a different carrier for me to fly this Winter but purely as a once off to try the product.
 
Luftymatt
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting Cyba (Reply 2):
You ask that question suggesting there is logic to what they do. There isn't.

Or if there is it goes something like this:
- Oops, we have too much capacity and
- though we offloaded our 330s...
- we went out and got us the next biggest plane, the 321 and
- there isn't enough demand on LCA-LHR for such a plane in winter especially not since...
- A3 launched year-round LCA-LHR also...
- damn those Greeks, we'll show them.
- and anyway what else can we do with our slots and our aircraft. We have to fly them somewhere... (also important that FR has joined U2 in flying year round to London from PFO but they can't really compete against FR so what will they do!)

  

Lol I think you've summed up the airline mentality there  There's no more logic to the decision than you've cited here.
chase the sun
 
EL-AL
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting Cyba (Reply 2):
Or if there is it goes something like this:
- Oops, we have too much capacity and
- though we offloaded our 330s...
- we went out and got us the next biggest plane, the 321 and
- there isn't enough demand on LCA-LHR for such a plane in winter especially not since...
- A3 launched year-round LCA-LHR also...
- damn those Greeks, we'll show them.
- and anyway what else can we do with our slots and our aircraft.

   Well said!

I think the main problem is that Cyprus Airways is just too big. southern Cyprus (considering that the north residents are flying via Turkey) is just 800,000 (about 20% of the population of Athens alone) and CY is too big airline. Getting rid of those A330 was smart move, but there is more to do.

Another problem is that Cyprus is a summer destination for tourism, not all year long, which is very problematic for the aviation industry.

(PS: on CY TLV-LCA flights the taxi time to the runway is sometimes longer then the flight time itself!)
every day is a good day to fly
 
CYatUK
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:13 am

I am just guessing here but there is always a possibility that this move is coordinated with OA acting as a feeder at ATH and code sharing with CY (current code-sharing agreement is on hold and is being re-negotiated at the moment)

There is also the possibility (again guessing) that the entry of CY into the Greek market could be related to a potential future A3/OA merger which was stopped in the past by the EU.

There is also the possibility that none of the above is valid and that CY are once again making moves without logic.

Only time can answer the above questions.
CY@Uk
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting booforty (Thread starter):
CY launch new daily ATH to LHR from October using A321.

ATH 18:40 - 20:45 LHR 4h05
LHR 22:00 - 03:35 +1 ATH 3h35

fairly straight forward I would think.

unless they operated such a sector, the aircraft would sit on the ground overnight in ATH.
by operating to LHR, not only do they protect their slots, but offer LCA-LHR v.v. as a one stop.

it also means they can offer a morning departure ATH-LCA , becuase current early flight is 11.30.

business pax ex-ATH could do a one day turnaround to LCA.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:59 am

So much competitive pressure for them whichever way they turn.

Might be more wise looking for a merger, or a partnership with A3 to atleast find some operational efficiencies along the way.
 
GCPET
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:22 am

I can't see this working for CY sadly. With Aegean and British Airways already covering the LHR-ATH-LHR sector I can't see many customers going for CY, especially since Aegean has a nice product on board and BA's is improving with the refurbishments of the 767's. It would make more sense to stay with the LCA-LHR-LCA sector but just change the aircraft to a A320. However it must be said, if BA can send a 767 to LCA and make money then surely CY if they change things round a bit: Lower fares etc!

GCPET
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
CYatUK
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:30 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 12):
Might be more wise looking for a merger, or a partnership with A3 to atleast find some operational efficiencies along the way.

Although I would like to see CY in *A, I think OA would make more sense as a partner given that their network is focused on the Balkans and does not have a huge overlap with the CY network.

If the code-sharing agreement (which is re-negotiated at the moment) is re-instated, I could see them expanding it further with the addition of the CY flights to LHR but also their ATH-SKG flights.

If the above takes place, there could be also a possibility that the OA ATH-SKG flights are reduced or even exist only as code-share flights with CY hence releasing a/c for OA to expand to other destinations.
CY@Uk
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:45 am

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 14):
Although I would like to see CY in *A, I think OA would make more sense as a partner given that their network is focused on the Balkans and does not have a huge overlap with the CY network.

If the code-sharing agreement (which is re-negotiated at the moment) is re-instated, I could see them expanding it further with the addition of the CY flights to LHR but also their ATH-SKG flights.

If the above takes place, there could be also a possibility that the OA ATH-SKG flights are reduced or even exist only as code-share flights with CY hence releasing a/c for OA to expand to other destinations.

If I remember correctly, ME was considering bidding on a stake in CY. If this happens, I believe ME would quickly try to get CY into SkyTeam as CY might really benefit being partners with AF KL AZ and SV. However, I am not sure if anything actually came of the rumor...
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
raffik
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:48 am

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 15):
ME was considering bidding on a stake in CY.

Yes, interest was announced two months ago.
I think joining an alliance could help CY, plus some decent management.
ME has since gone quiet- they are due to join Skyteam in June so let's watch this space
- Alec
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting booforty (Thread starter):
Why would CY launch such a route?

Relaunch!
I flew Cyprus Airways LHR to ATH on a Trident in 1969.
It seemed silly at the time as nearly all the pax were going to Nicosia, and only 5 got off in Athens.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 9):
Another problem is that Cyprus is a summer destination for tourism, not all year long

The Cyprus tourism board (or something similar) had TV commercials on Scandinavian TV a few years ago, calling Cyprus the "year-round island". But if you can't swim in the ocean during winter, many don't consider it a holiday place, even if it is nice and sunny.

Has winter tourism increased somewhat in Cyprus or declined?

Arriving in ATH at 03.35 doesn't sound too attractive, unless shuttle buses and trains run all night.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
B747forever
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting GCPET (Reply 13):
However it must be said, if BA can send a 767 to LCA and make money then surely CY if they change things round a bit: Lower fares etc!

But dont forget that BA has a massive network at the other end, while CY barely offers any connections at LCA.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
cyba
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:29 pm

Just a couple of things:

BA does make money on LCA but has very low loads in the winter months (as does CY, hence the over-capacity issue). Nov, Jan, Feb flights typically have load factors of 30-50%. But the cargo hold is usually full (not sure what with) and Apr-Oct BA flights are usually completely full.

While there is lots of connecting traffic at LHR there's probably more O&D traffic on this route than any other out of LCA (except Greece).
 
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OA260
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 18):

Buses run 24/7 to the port of Piraeus for the 6-8 am sailings its a good connection. Also 24/7 to Athens city. Also it's possible to connect to many Islands around 6am on the Olympic/Aegean Domestic network.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 18):
Arriving in ATH at 03.35 doesn't sound too attractive

From LON at the moment:

0205 Aegean from LHR
0230 BA from LHR
0400 Aegean from LHR
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
panais
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:18 am

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 9):
I think the main problem is that Cyprus Airways is just too big.

The main problem with CY is that is it has a lot of employees who are making double the industry standard.
The other issue is that planes are not utilised as much as they could, with lots of them flying one sector per day.

What could save CY? Nothing really. Its employees, especially its pilots, need to make a decision. Half the income with another owner or no job.
 
elnino320
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:00 pm

Before accusing Cyprus Airways pilots you should know some important information.Back in the 2005,the airline management came to an agreement with the pilots for a pay cut of 30% on their salaries,to save the airline,and in return the management would follow a restructuring plan that had 3 steps :First Clean the house,Second get in shape,Third Perform.

These steps where including outsourcing catering,engineering,accounting departments and reducing the number of employees.

None of these ever took place,because of the governments afraid of loosing votes in the elections.So the economic situation became even worse.

In 2011 January the airline management requested a further 9% pay cut from the employees for the next 12 months to help the airline and they promised (again) to make a restructuring plan(never did).

2012 January the 9% was never returned(illegally) to the employees and the airline management says they cannot afford to give it back(but at the same time they give promotions to managers in the offices).

Cyprus Airways First officers earn 2500-3500 per month and the captains 5000-6000,is that amount of money so crazy?for airline pilots?in a country that has a GDP higher than the European average?

Cyprus Airways has 120 pilots for 13 airplanes(11 with the 330s leaving) and the airline has 1200 employees,what the rest 1080 people are doing?
 
panais
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting elnino320 (Reply 24):
2012 January the 9% was never returned(illegally) to the employees and the airline management says they cannot afford to give it back(but at the same time they give promotions to managers in the offices).

Exactly why CY needs to get a new owner. Management is incapable of managing. On the other hand, who is going to buy the company with so many employees? Therefore, employees need to go, those who stay get their salaries reduced.

It is so crazy that pilots are asking for a new business plan. They should be asking for a new owner.

Quoting elnino320 (Reply 24):
Cyprus Airways First officers earn 2500-3500 per month and the captains 5000-6000,is that amount of money so crazy?for airline pilots?in a country that has a GDP higher than the European average?

This amount is crazy for a company that is bankrupt.
 
elnino320
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting panais (Reply 25):
This amount is crazy for a company that is bankrupt.

First of all Cyprus Airways is not bankrupt,and second if you do a small research you will realize these pilots salaries are below the European average.

In addition to these if you do the maths,even if the pilots work for absolutely free for a year the management cannot make economics go on the positive side because they are simply not capable to do it.

I don't know what news you receive in Sudan,but Cyprus Airways pilots 2 months ago they protested at the airline's headquarters demanding the airline 70% which belongs to the government to be sold to a private company.Correct me if i am wrong but this maybe a world's first(at least in the airline business) for employees to want their company to leave from government hands and be privatized.

If a company/airline buys Cyprus Airways,they will get rid off the unnecessary people and outsource everything but the flight operations,this is what the government afraid because this means loosing of votes.
 
CYatUK
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting elnino320 (Reply 26):
First of all Cyprus Airways is not bankrupt

I would put the word "yet" at the end of your sentence above  

Today I read the news about the Board finalizing the sell of the 2 owned A319s and I wondered what could be the reason behind this sale given that they are only around 11-12 years old compared to the old A320 which is older than 20years.

My feeling is that the company is in need of cash and the only way they can do it is by selling these planes (at the same time when another 2 A319s are leased) so it can survive at least until February 2013 (Presidential elections). What happens after that is extremely difficult to predict.

I hope the ATH-LHR route does well but I don't think it will be an easy step for CY. Also, given that a number of LHR slots were sold to another company (with CY keeping only 2daily pairs), I wonder how CY will cover the loss of the second daily LCA-LHR flight during the Summer of 2013.
CY@Uk
 
cyba
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting elnino320 (Reply 26):
I don't know what news you receive in Sudan

Panais (who you're quoting) isn't from Sudan!!
 
panais
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:22 am

Quoting elnino320 (Reply 26):
I don't know what news you receive in Sudan

If you consider Ayios Andreas, Lefkosia Sudan, then I might actually be from Khartoum.   

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 27):
Today I read the news about the Board finalizing the sell of the 2 owned A319s

These two planes are the only hard assets they have left. Everything else is leased. The next asset to go are their landing slots at LHR.

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 27):
so it can survive at least until February 2013 (Presidential elections).

It will happen sooner. The current president is not going to run again. What will save them somehow, is the Cypriot presidency of the EU, where a lot of EU technocrats will be flying in for meetings. But even that is questionable because the are other airlines better placed such as Lufthansa and Co with Aegean and Ryanair.

Quoting elnino320 (Reply 26):
If a company/airline buys Cyprus Airways,they will get rid off the unnecessary people and outsource everything but the flight operations,this is what the government afraid because this means loosing of votes.

Agree, but nobody is going to buy CY as they are. They will first need to resize their operations and staff and then put themselves up for a sale.
 
elnino320
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:24 am

Apologies i confused Cyba(sudan) user with Panais.

Quoting panais (Reply 29):
Agree, but nobody is going to buy CY as they are. They will first need to resize their operations and staff and then put themselves up for a sale.

This is the government excuse all these years...first we resize then we sell it,and they never resize.Some airlines did show some real interest already to buy Cyprus Airways but once again the governments are not willing to let it go for political reasons,so in the end of the day they will have only 2 options,either inject money(which might end up illegal) or sell it.

Quoting booforty (Thread starter):
It will happen sooner. The current president is not going to run again. What will save them somehow, is the Cypriot presidency of the EU, where a lot of EU technocrats will be flying in for meetings. But even that is questionable because the are other airlines better placed such as Lufthansa and Co with Aegean and Ryanair.

The current president selected an engineer to be the CEO of Cyprus Airways,a person who has nothing to do with aviation management and administration..that was a crime.Besides this, Cyprus Airways stop Brussels flights some time ago because they were non profitable and the Cyprus government requested the airline to put them back for the Cypriot Presidency and the airline agreed only if the government buys a specific number of seats on each flight to Brussels.

What will save this airline is changing the soonest ownership.
 
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Vasu
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:39 am

How much feed does CY get from flying into LHR? Could they feasibly switch flights to LGW to save money?
 
cyba
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RE: Cyprus Airways Launch ATH - LHR

Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting elnino320 (Reply 30):
Apologies i confused Cyba(sudan) user with Panais.

Never judge a book by its cover.  

Comment on the content if you like.

Change of ownership at CY would be a good step forward. I wonder whether it's too late though to salvage this one.