Liverpoola380
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:19 pm

BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:14 pm

Sky news just announced BA is making a number of ground staff at LGW redundant

link below

http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16206619

Its a shame it looks like this is the beginning of the end for BA at LGW unless they are streamlining to reduce costs and maintain a gatwick presence?
 
anstar
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:18 pm

I think LGW have been overstaffed (in customer service roles) for a while - especially as they seem to be downsizing the short haul ops every year that passes. (and EZ grows)

I go through regularly and it amazes me they need 4 people to sit on the lounge desk at times - or even 2 for the first class lounge... And then when you walk around the airport there always seems to be BA staff just sitting at some of the gates - more so than at LHR.
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting liverpoola380 (Thread starter):
Its a shame it looks like this is the beginning of the end for BA at LGW unless they are streamlining to reduce costs and maintain a gatwick presence?

I understand that this is being done in order to make a business case for a new short haul aircraft order at LGW.
 
anstar
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:55 pm

Perhaps they will have the staff do multi roles like they do at T5?

Ie at T5 they can work on the desk in the lounge, arrivals or departures.

At LGW I believe they will work check in only or the lounge only.
 
virgincrew
Posts: 420
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:34 pm

Sad times for BA staff .... over 500 staff to be made redundant.

Quote from Sky News:

"The airline is to make 120 check-in and customer service staff redundant at the London airport, while 400 baggage handlers, drivers and loaders have been told that they will lose their jobs unless they transfer to a sub-contractor"

"The plans will see 'ramp work' such as baggage, de-icing and coaching operations and the arrivals baggage service outsourced to another firm"

I am surprised this hasn't happened sooner, most airlines outsource this kind of ramp work.
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:42 pm

120 redundant, 400 TUPED.
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:05 pm

BA is possibly the only airline at LGW that employs its own staff and this was move, as unfortunate as it is, was always a possibility. Outsourcing is cheaper and would allow BA to have a more competitive cost base at LGW and hopefully better compete with other carriers out of LGW.
 
jet72uk
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:17 pm

It can only mean one of two things: either BA want to drastically downscale the LGW operation and move services to LHR or, get new aircraft there and become a more dominant force. Considering BA at LGW has been doing rather well of late it will most likely be the latter.
 
planesailing
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:57 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting liverpoola380 (Thread starter):
Its a shame it looks like this is the beginning of the end for BA at LGW unless they are streamlining to reduce costs and maintain a gatwick presence?

"News on the ramp" has been that BA has been looking at the ground handling options at LGW for the past few weeks. As far as the rumor mill was aware, a decision was due soon.

Quoting anstar (Reply 1):
I go through regularly and it amazes me they need 4 people to sit on the lounge desk at times - or even 2 for the first class lounge... And then when you walk around the airport there always seems to be BA staff just sitting at some of the gates - more so than at LHR.

Or just walking around the terminal with all the time in the world, seemingly not heading to anywhere!

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 2):
I understand that this is being done in order to make a business case for a new short haul aircraft order at LGW.

The present omens at LGW would suggest it probaby is more in line with a reduction in services from the airport.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 6):
BA is possibly the only airline at LGW that employs its own staff and this was move, as unfortunate as it is, was always a possibility. Outsourcing is cheaper and would allow BA to have a more competitive cost base at LGW and hopefully better compete with other carriers out of LGW.

By all accounts the BA ramp staff are on amazing contracts compared to the going rate these days. Not sure how TUPE transfers is going to make a good business case for the ground handler who picks up the contract.
 
G-CIVP
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:17 pm

planesailing - I would imagine that any TUPE'ed BA staff would eventually lose their benefits in due course, either by design or default.
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 7):
a more dominant force. Considering BA at LGW has been doing rather well of late it will most likely be the latter.

Huh? Long haul does well, short haul is in a death spiral and they gifted dominance to easyJet years ago. Short haul is a fraction of it's former size, with an ever decreasing number of based, elderly B737s flying routes head to head with EZY. They are now trying to get their cost base closer to EZY at the midnight hour but it's way too late as the market flies orange.

Why fly BA to arrive after midnight when I can pay a little *more* and fly EZY and arrive at a decent hour? I am a huge BA fan but there's no way back for short haul LGW. If outsourcing all ground ops is the only way for the board to contemplate replacing the B734s, then that shows how unlikely the capital investment is likely to be. Even with the cost savings, they'll still be emloying more staff at higher cost per departure and still having to meet EZY on price and frequency. They don't have the cost base to be profitable on price and they don't have the aircraft for frequency.

If they do decide to invest in a new fleet, I think we'll see war at LGW on short haul. Stelio will moan no doubt....
 
ZKOJH
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:26 pm

So they get there hands on BD and then start shedding jobs at other stations - silly most likely see a shift of flights up to LHR so back to the joke of BA becoming London Heathrow Airlines! haha, there be more job losses to come yet from the BD shop, so not a good day for BA or the economy. bit of news on LGW that BA have re-introduced a 4th service up to MAN again.
Vietnam time..
 
tonystan
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:11 am

Scary times ahead for the LGW groundstaff.

I think when the relaunched check in area was opened a short while back the writing was on the walls as it was a clear attempt to reduce staffing levels and automate the passenger experience.

This also does not bode well for BMI staff as I cannot see the company offering all of its employees (particularly ground based staff) a role in the company when BA are letting its own go!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:20 am

I believe only cabin crew and flight deck are joining BA. Engineering is profitable I believe so may be folded into BA where possible?
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:21 am

I believe only cabin crew and flight deck are joining BA. Engineering is profitable I believe so may be folded into BA where possible?
 
tonystan
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:29 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 13):
I believe only cabin crew and flight deck are joining BA

I imagine you are right. Im pretty sure the pilots have already been advised they are to be integrated. As for the CC I am aware that their reps are to meet this week with BA and hash out an agreement on integration but I dont believe any firm decisions have yet been made.

Personally I can see the majority of crew being safe, as for their ranks and seniority well I fear that could be wiped out. Rumour has it that they will be placed into Eurofleet but I wonder if they will remain on some of their currently served routes for a time until BA decides what to do with the longhaul configured airbuses!!!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
planesailing
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:46 am

News this morning is that Menzies have secured the ramp handling contract for BA at LGW.
 
mikey72
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:57 am

I would...

Shut the lot down and call it a day.

Transfer the money making long-haul ops to LHR.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
vectismanpaul
Posts: 99
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:52 am

I am sorry Mikey but I cannot let your comments go without a response.
I have been reading these forums for a number of years but now feel the need to join to answer some of the comments made by users that need to be challenged.
Closing the Gatwick base would be rather shortsighted. BA is gaining 42 slots at Heathrow with the BMI slots many of which it wishes to use to develop new routes and strengthen its overall network. This welcome expansion will only bring brief relief to capacity constraints in the short/medium term.
Currently in the summer BA can have up to 62 Departures a day from Gatwick carrying about 5 million passengers a year. What company what give away 5 million passengers to other airlines? There is also the consequence of losing the brand presence etc...
Even with the BMI slots there is no way BA could transfer all its operations to Heathrow. Every transfer takes up a slot that could be used for route development at Heathrow.
Also many people seem to overlook the fact that for BA to expand at Heathrow another British Airline has been 'lost'. You could look at it as a similar number of passengers being carried just with a different carrier. Although I accept BA will probably do so more efficiently and in greater numbers. True expansion at Heathrow will only come with 'bigger Heathrow'.
I am a strong supporter of BA and believe that with foresight and commitment to offering a good and cost effective product it can run 3 profitable and well regarded London bases(Heathrow, Gatwick and City) I hope this cost reduction works and in the long term safeguards the base and leads to more employment opportunities there. The company needs to be brave enough to invest in aircraft and routes. It is interesting that on the routes on which it competes with Easyjet it seems to hold its own quite well. In same cases it has been Easyjet that has reduced capacity to certain destinations.
There is also the human cost that has to be considered(unfashionable I know) but is is rather glib to say that you would close the base and transfer all the profitable routes to Heathrow.
The day may also come when the government finds it more politically acceptable to encourage the expansion of Gatwick (ie with a 2nd runway) than at Heathrow (ie 3rd runway). BA would find it difficult to start up again there if that were to happen.
Also I doubt that BA would walk away from at least 62 slot pairs at London's 2nd airport.
The base does have a loyal following and is well regarded by passengers.
I believe that BA made a serious tactical error by not purchasing GB Airways a few years back, but that is history now.
I also am not anti Easyjet and have flown them several times but all airports need to offer choice and BA/Easyjet both at Gatwick is important. At Heathrow BA has many others to keep it on its toes. Likewise at Gatwick Easyjet also Needs the same.
I apologise for rambling on and fully expect to be shouted down but I feel better for having made my comments and that's what matters to me!!
Finally I wish all staff affected at Gatwick well and hope they do not have to endure along period of uncertainty and in some cases long periods of unemployment.
I would also like to stress I have no connection with BA.
V.

[Edited 2012-04-12 00:56:55]
 
mikey72
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:21 am

Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 18):
There is also the human cost that has to be considered(unfashionable I know) but is is rather glib to say that you would close the base and transfer all the profitable routes to Heathrow.

Totally aware of that. Really don't want to see anyone lose their job.

Doesn't mean certain realities can just be ignored a la Air France etc

Airlines do that at their peril....and the list is long.

I don't call it giving up I call it adapting.

Anyway, you could be right, is just my opinion after all.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
LTU330
Posts: 121
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:32 am

London Airways starts to look more like Heathrow Airways. It's strange how things pan out. In Engineering many years ago, people had to accept jobs at Heathrow or lose their jobs. Maybe the same will apply here. At least the situation is not as bad as what B.A did to Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Belfast......
 
LHRFlyer
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Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:46 am

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 20):
London Airways starts to look more like Heathrow Airways. It's

Not so. BA is now the largest operator of flights at London City airport and is continuing to grow there. A few years ago it was behind CityJet (who looked like they had gained a major foothold at LCY), but with the new fleet of Embraer aircraft (which has gone down very well with customers) it has managed to play catch up and overtake them.

Competing against easyJet at LGW will be much harder, but if LGW's MD manages to secure board approval for a new aircraft order, perhaps with a more competitive cost base and a better product, we'll see BA start to fight back at LGW rather than constant cutting back of the schedule. (Though I appreciate this will of little comfort to those who are facing redundancy and changes to their roles.)
 
anstar
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 18):
Currently in the summer BA can have up to 62 Departures a day from Gatwick carrying about 5 million passengers a year. What company what give away 5 million passengers to other airlines?

The same airline that gave up around that many passengers in the past 10 years as it shed BMED, GB and BACON etc

If the routes are not profitable - dump them and consolidate on the more profitable ones up the road.
 
richardw
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:32 am

This is just sensible business, cutting costs, and businesses do this all the time.

It also appears to be cutting costs for the long haul fleet as well as the short haul fleet at LGW.

The most interesting aspect is what they will do over the next few years to increase revenues at this base.
 
nclmedic
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:25 pm

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:52 am

Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 18):

Well said, mate. I'm completely onboard with you on all these points!
 
mutu
Posts: 264
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:01 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 22):
Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 18):
Currently in the summer BA can have up to 62 Departures a day from Gatwick carrying about 5 million passengers a year. What company what give away 5 million passengers to other airlines?

The same airline that gave up around that many passengers in the past 10 years as it shed BMED, GB and BACON etc

Just to repeat a point made thousands of times, BA did not SHED GB or BMED. Both were independent airlines operating under a franchise arrangement allowing them to use BA colours and uniforms, booking systems etc etc.

It is correct to say BA did not look to BUY them both when they were put on the market

Sorry to be a pedant!
 
vectismanpaul
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:17 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:27 am

Further to my earlier comments re need for both BA and Easyjet at Gatwick.
I was trying to make the point that the presence of both enhances choice and service. For example Easyjet's move into allocated seating and improved Easykiosk catering are responses to competition. BA fares from Gatwick are also very competitive as a result of the Easyjet presence. In my opinion it is not favourable to have any airport dominated by one airline. Yes I know that BA will have over 50 percent of slots at Heathrow but I do believe that airport is unique as a world hub and the competition there between the leading airlines of the world is very intense.
I exclude Ryanair from my observations simply because i believe they have created and serve their own market. Easy jet and BA both have a different focus.
Hopefully in the days ahead we will get to know more about the plan for Gatwick and indeed Heathrow, probably after April 20th I would assume.
I agree with the comment about London City. It is proving a great success by offering a good product at an acceptable price.
Lets hope BA at Gatwick can achieve the same result.
I must also apologise for the layout and grammar of my original post. Howver I was keen to get it online asap.

Thanks
V.
 
richardw
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:35 am

There's also Monarch competing for passengers alongside easyJet and BA on some routes including Dubrovnik and Malaga.
 
raffik
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:41 pm

There is no way that BA will give up Gatwick, the airport has BA's second largest presence outside of Heathrow and is generally considered to be a profitable operation.

Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 18):
I am sorry Mikey but I cannot let your comments go without a response.
I have been reading these forums for a number of years but now feel the need to join to answer some of the comments made by users that need to be challenged.

I completely agree. It's all very well for people to come on to these forums and spout nonsense but when those comments are factually incorrect, they do need to be challenged.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 10):
Why fly BA to arrive after midnight when I can pay a little *more* and fly EZY and arrive at a decent hour?

The service onboard BA is superior
- Passengers can earn Avios points
- Complimentary onboard catering
- Allocated seating
- Complimentary baggage allowance
- Better seat pitch
- Alec
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:48 pm

It would be a shame if BA did reduce their presence at LGW. They do need A320s and retire their 737s to revitalize their product.

When I have the chance I prefer to do short haul out of LGW than LHR. The whole experience as a J class passenger is friendlier and more laid back.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
musang
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:11 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:55 pm

"Why fly BA to arrive after midnight when I can pay a little *more* and fly EZY and arrive at a decent hour?"

Which BA destinations only offer after-midnight arrivals? As far as I know the after 24:00 one is simply the last of several.

Another rumour for LGW is to keep about 10 of the best 737s and top up with 319s from up the road.

Regards - musang

[Edited 2012-04-12 10:31:55]
 
jet72uk
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:14 pm

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:28 pm

Mikey72's comments were very embarrassing.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3378
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 18):
I am a strong supporter of BA and believe that with foresight and commitment to offering a good and cost effective product it can run 3 profitable and well regarded London bases(Heathrow, Gatwick and City) I hope this cost reduction works and in the long term safeguards the base and leads to more employment opportunities there. The company needs to be brave enough to invest in aircraft and routes. It is interesting that on the routes on which it competes with Easyjet it seems to hold its own quite well. In same cases it has been Easyjet that has reduced capacity to certain destinations.

All terribly fluffy and completely wrong. Foresight and commitment in this case in volve capital investment with little chance of a return, this is throwing good money after bad again. BA is not in the business of offering employment opportuities, that is not how business works. BA does in no way hold it's own against easyJet. Even on domestics, a BA powerhouse for years, easyJet came in from nothing on EDI and GLA and built up custom at BA's expense. easyJet is more expensive on domestics out of LGW most of the time, meaning BA with their higher cost base are losing money to hold market share.
Price sensitive peeps still book easy, not aware that BA are just as cheap and anyone booking Club Europe out of LGW on a 20 year old B734, well, why would you if it's your own money?

Holding market share at the expense of profitability is what they have been trying to do at LGW for years, it does not work, it loses money, there is no good reason to keep doing it. I think this is Part One of a plan to outsource handling and close short haul as in the case of LGW, long haul can stand alone, not something that can be done at LHR.
 
shufflemoomin
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:04 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 17):
I would...

Shut the lot down and call it a day.

Transfer the money making long-haul ops to LHR.

You realise this is people's employment you're dealing with? Get yourself a suit and get the applications out there. You've clearly got a future in management. You'll never get any respect this way and you'll likely be hated by many, but hey, there's a nice fat pay check in it for your if you're willing to be as heartless as you've demonstrated.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3378
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:51 am

OK sir debating the point I made about market share bearing no relevance to ongoing profitability, what's your disagreement? I do this for a living so I'd be keen to know where I am going wrong? What's your fix aside from spend millions on new aircraft and hope people forsake easyJet? Incidentally it's spelled "nonsense".

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 33):
You realise this is people's employment you're dealing with?

Yup, loads of them standing about doing nothing making sure the company hasn't got the cost base to compete with easyJet who deliever a better service with half the staff, and they're all with Menzies Gatwick. Look at skytrax to see how pleasantly positive people are in the main with EZY versus clapped out BA with 20 year old aircraft and no option to get real food whatsoever in economy.
All excess and overpaid staff do is make the company uncompetitive, if you can't deal with that sort of harsh and cold mentality, and many don't like it, then perhaps that explains why our public sector is so bloeated? Have you seen the disparity on costs between a BA ramper and the equivalent easyJet loader with Menzies?

[Edited 2012-04-12 17:52:20]
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3378
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting musang (Reply 30):
Another rumour for LGW is to keep about 10 of the best 737s and top up with 319s from up the road.

Cutting costs by having two fleets from two different manufacturers doing the same job? In the medium term, the A319s at LHR will be needed to fly the slot portfolio on a use it or lose it basis. The deal on the table is new aircraft for Gatwick, the old hand me downs and cast offs from LHR hasn't generated a profit once in....actually ever.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:44 am

Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 26):
I was trying to make the point that the presence of both enhances choice and service.

What service ?

A bag of bombay mix and a coke ?

Even on long-haul that concept is a myth these days.

Airlines compete at an international level now not within individual airports.

Alliances, mergers etc put paid to that hence the collapse of the VS business model.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 33):
You realise this is people's employment you're dealing with? Get yourself a suit and get the applications out there. You've clearly got a future in management. You'll never get any respect this way and you'll likely be hated by many, but hey, there's a nice fat pay check in it for your if you're willing to be as heartless as you've demonstrated.

Oh for heavens sake.

You can't keep part of a PLC business going that is hemorrhaging cash to save jobs.

However much we all (including me) wish we could.

When I made the remark it was with the thought in mind that hopefully a lot of jobs could be transferred to other parts of the business.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:56 am

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 20):
London Airways starts to look more like Heathrow Airways

Surely you are talking about VS ?

Last time I checked BA was...

A founding member of one of the worlds largest airline alliances.

One half of a company that ranks as one of the largest airlines in the world.

A member of a 'small' group of airlines that serves 'all' of the worlds continental regions.

One half of 3 of the most important JV's in the world. AA, QF and now JL.

London Airways ???
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
musang
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:11 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:11 am

"Cutting costs by having two fleets from two different manufacturers doing the same job?"


They had plans for 8 Airbuses at LGW plus the 737s a couple of years ago. There are 3 319s there at present. Also, adding 767s to the 777s has been explored. Two fleets doing the same job is not an alien concept to BA.

"Yup, loads of them standing about doing nothing making sure the company hasn't got the cost base to compete with easyJet who deliever a better service with half the staff"

Harsh, but not entirely unreasonable. Having worked for 2 independent ground handling companies I would contend that there is a vast difference in productivity between them and BA. LHR must be looking on with great interest. It's commercial reality. I'm sure that when BA took over DanAir and EOG came into being, they bemoaned the inability (union opposition) to start with outsourced handling. The writing's been on the wall for ages.

Having said that, it will be traumatic for the BA staff and having been made redundant once, I empathise. They've been onto a good thing up to now. All good things ....

Regards - mustang
 
musang
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:11 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:11 am

"Cutting costs by having two fleets from two different manufacturers doing the same job?"


They had plans for 8 Airbuses at LGW plus the 737s a couple of years ago. There are 3 319s there at present. Also, adding 767s to the 777s has been explored. Two fleets doing the same job is not an alien concept to BA.

"Yup, loads of them standing about doing nothing making sure the company hasn't got the cost base to compete with easyJet who deliever a better service with half the staff"

Harsh, but not entirely unreasonable. Having worked for 2 independent ground handling companies I would contend that there is a vast difference in productivity between them and BA. LHR must be looking on with great interest. It's commercial reality. I'm sure that when BA took over DanAir and EOG came into being, they bemoaned the inability (union opposition) to start with outsourced handling. The writing's been on the wall for ages.

Having said that, it will be traumatic for the BA staff and having been made redundant once, I empathise. They've been onto a good thing up to now. All good things ....

Regards - mustang
 
richardw
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:30 am

If EZY offered allocated seating and BA short haul offered additional buy on board/ in advance food items, then this would heighten the competition between the airlines on the same routes.
 
raffik
Posts: 1531
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:04 am

BA are obviously committed to its Gatwick operations by trying to maximise profitability by streamlining their ground fees. If Gatwick was such a loss making enterprise , then I would imagine that they would have pulled out by now.

But, let's remember that in another discussion on these forums, it has been announced that Heathrow's hub, Heathrow, will NOT be getting another runway.. so in order for British Airways to continue to grow it would be an obvious choice to expand their presence at Gatwick as slots at Heathrow become non existent. They will not expand at Luton, Stansted or Southend.. the logical airport is the one that has seen British Airways service for many years and is already established as London's second busiest airport
- Alec
 
APYu
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:24 am

Quoting raffik (Reply 41):
it has been announced that Heathrow's hub, Heathrow, will NOT be getting another runway.. so in order for British Airways to continue to grow it would be an obvious choice to expand their presence at Gatwick as slots at Heathrow become non existent. They will not expand at Luton, Stansted or Southend..

But given a choice of where to expand, and limited funds to do so, you have to include IAGs other 'nests' of Madrid and Barcelona as potential winners of any investment pot.
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mikey72
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting raffik (Reply 41):
But, let's remember that in another discussion on these forums, it has been announced that Heathrow's hub, Heathrow, will NOT be getting another runway.. so in order for British Airways to continue to grow it would be an obvious choice to expand their presence at Gatwick as slots at Heathrow become non existent. They will not expand at Luton, Stansted or Southend.. the logical airport is the one that has seen British Airways service for many years and is already established as London's second busiest airport

If at LGW BA can compete on short-haul and turn a decent profit then great.

Apart from the beach fleet* long-haul is a different kettle of fish.
(*even here I would transfer BGI and BDA to LHR)

Thay have already tried making LGW a second long-haul hub.

For whatever reason the punters (especailly those spending the big bucks) just switched to rival airlines from LHR.

I think LGW is to London as EWR is to New York only more so !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
raffik
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting APYu (Reply 42):
But given a choice of where to expand, and limited funds to do so, you have to include IAGs other 'nests' of Madrid and Barcelona as potential winners of any investment pot

I suppose the difference being that the Spanish government would welcome expansion at those airports if required, which definitely puts Heathrow at a disadvantage. I think it is very short minded of the (UK) government to stunt growth in the air sector, it is the good air connections which have helped our growth (being an island.)


BA will be taking in bmi's A319s & A320s shortly- what a perfect time to get rid of the 737s and expand Gatwick's operations.
- Alec
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:31 pm

Raffik you need to read a little more history and understand why what you suggest has been tried and failed utterly. IAG have state growth will be in Madrid at the expense of London.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 32):
Price sensitive peeps still book easy, not aware that BA are just as cheap and anyone booking Club Europe out of LGW on a 20 year old B734, well, why would you if it's your own money?

Lounge access
on board food
More leg room
Better baggage allowance
Priority baggage

Makes sense to some.
 
raffik
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 45):

Raffik you need to read a little more history and understand why what you suggest has been tried and failed utterly. IAG have state growth will be in Madrid at the expense of London

I didn't realise that the Gatwick operations have failed? Does anybody have any current financial data available?


Madrid might develop as a hub for IAG but there will be a number of passengers who do not want to transit Madrid to get to America, or South Africa, or the Middle East, or even Europe, where the national carriers of those countries provide direct flights to London.
We will always need direct air connections and people DO pay a premium to fly direct even when it can be cheaper to connect through another city.
So, there is quite definitely a demand for direct services from London and Gatwick already already has 51 destinations served by BA from there so it isn't as if it isn't already an established base!

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 46):
Lounge access
on board food
More leg room
Better baggage allowance
Priority baggage

Completely agree- plus the ability to earn frequent flyer points.
- Alec
 
GT4EZY
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting mutu (Reply 25):
Just to repeat a point made thousands of times, BA did not SHED GB or BMED. Both were independent airlines operating under a franchise arrangement allowing them to use BA colours and uniforms, booking systems etc etc.It is correct to say BA did not look to BUY them both when they were put on the market

BA did actually look at buying GB. The idea was to merge with SFLGW and offer a "contemporary BA offering" in the form of BACON style service. Such a scenario would have meant GB's MAN base would almost certainly have been shut down so the sale to EZY (if anyone) was a good thing IMO.

Quoting raffik (Reply 28):
The service onboard BA is superior- Passengers can earn Avios points- Complimentary onboard catering - Allocated seating- Complimentary baggage allowance- Better seat pitch

I think some a.netters sometimes place too much emphasis on the things many passengers want. Alot of passengers don't travel enough or couldn't care less about points, comp catering is more or less non existent. Comp baggage is only good if you actually need it and even then, EZY can compete even with a baggage charge. Allocated seating puts some passengers off but this is likely to be introduced after the seating trial. Seat pitch isn't that important on short flights but many of the rows at EZY aren't that bad for leg room, the 29" relates to the last few rows which can be quite tight.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 32):
Price sensitive peeps still book easy, not aware that BA are just as cheap

Again some a.netters don't give your average passenger much credit. The market is very price savvy which is why the industry is so competitive. Look at the IT market in the 90's and 00's to see how price savvy the travelling public really can be!
I'm not anti-BA at all. I'm ex GB and a large part of me is still blue and red. However, what some fail to realise is that Easy does have quite a following and they are the airline of choice for alot of people. Not everyone who uses the airline are forgoing certain perks/perceived perks based on cost but because they actually like and value the Easyjet service and/or experience. Thats not to say it is perfect but nonetheless they choose Easyjet because they want to fly with Easyjet and not xxx. On a forum full of enthusiasts and plane spotters I totally understand why that concept might be alien.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 34):
Yup, loads of them standing about doing nothing making sure the company hasn't got the cost base to compete with easyJet who deliever a better service with half the staff, and they're all with Menzies Gatwick. Look at skytrax to see how pleasantly positive people are in the main with EZY versus clapped out BA with 20 year old aircraft and no option to get real food whatsoever in economy.

Incidentally I have heard rumours that Menzies might be losing the EZY LGW contract. Not sure how true that is. But true, on Skytrax (which i regard in the same vein as Trip Advisor for it's reliability) EZY fairs extremely well. Things aren't perfect but they sometimes don't get the credit that they deserve in some debates here.

Quoting richardw (Reply 40):
If EZY offered allocated seating

It is likely they will after the seating trial is completed. LGW, atleast initially, is being left out of the allocated seating trial intentionally but if all goes well over the next few weeks then it is likely that other Easyjet routes will begin trialling allocated seating.
Proud to fly from Manchester!
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA Gatwick Redundancies

Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting raffik (Reply 47):
I didn't realise that the Gatwick operations have failed?

Under CEO Robert Ayling BA tried to expand long and short haul at LGW to complement LHR, it was the "Hub without the hubbub" and B747-400s, B767-300ERs, B757-200s were all moved from LHR to set this up with the DC10s replaced with new B777-236ERs. Millions in investment yielded millions in losses as when a route was moved to LGW, the premium traffic all stayed at LHR and flew with someone else.
The concept lost a fortune and proved to BA that LGW was unable to compete in key markets. Hence all US business traffic is now at LHR leaving LGW with long haul high volume sun routes sold with help from BA Holidays. This business flown by 7-8 based B777-200s is believed to be profitable.

Competing in key Europeam markets also did not work for BA hence most capitals were pulled from LGW and since there is no long haul left worth feeding, almost none at all in the afternoon to prop up several waves of short haul frequency, BA LGW short haul are left with a different business model.

Under Rod Eddington and continued by Willie Walsh, they operate point to point leisure principally, although many routes do have a lot of business travel. This puts them right up against EZY who have a cost base some 15-40% less depending on who you talk to. This has meant continued losses in short haul.

Finally when BA Connect was sold, the point was made that it was lss making and not key to the main strategy of feeding LHR long haul. Sound familiar?