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readytotaxi
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UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:17 pm

In a TV interview on CH4 in the UK aired a few minutes ago the Prime Minister, speaking from Jakarta said that there would be no 3rd runway at Heathrow under his leadership.
No link yet.
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skipness1E
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:45 pm

Like no Tuition Fees under Clegg's? London mayoral election is upcoming in May also.
 
CALMSP
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:47 pm

Another government that doesn't support the industry. He clearly doesn't realize that, without building a third runway, which will increase flights, LHR will continue to lose out on revenue that is quickly moving towards the middle east carriers.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:48 pm

Interesting that he says 'under his leadership' so it could be approved as early as 2015 or more likely 2020.

Also interesting that he says LHR so LGW or STN could be getting a new one
 
anstar
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
In a TV interview on CH4 in the UK aired a few minutes ago the Prime Minister, speaking from Jakarta said that there would be no 3rd runway at Heathrow under his leadership.
No link yet.

I dont htink he will get another term anyway... so bring on the 3rd runway!
 
Gingersnap
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:12 pm

What an idiotic government. Never ceases to amaze me.
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LondonCity
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
In a TV interview on CH4 in the UK aired a few minutes ago the Prime Minister, speaking from Jakarta said that there would be no 3rd runway at Heathrow under his leadership.

The other fact which came out of the interview is that the UK government would arrange for Garuda (our PM is currently in Jakarta) to gain landing rights in London. But the PM did not specify which airport ...
 
cargolex
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:33 pm

Can anyone offer more insight on the rationale behind opposing a third runway? It would seem from an outsider's perspective that a third runway is seriously needed, and that just a quick glance at a map reveals plenty of land available to do it with - though there would be considerable cost to relocate some people.

I can understand that people don't want even more heavies flying over their house at 5 am, but if the UK needs this infrastructure improvement, the opposition is only delaying the inevitable and raising the cost to taxpayers and residents.

I'd like to hear more on what substantive things - i.e. beyond "I don' want no more aeroplanes goin' over my flat" the opposition is putting forth to support not enlarging LHR.

[Edited 2012-04-11 12:48:32]
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:44 pm

Quoting cargolex (Reply 7):
Can anyone offer more insight on the rationale behind opposing a third runway?

The people who live near LHR don't want a 3rd runway due to their concern about additional flights=additional noise. It's a typical NIBY scenario. This attitude occurs despite the fact the airport complies with all applicable noise regulations and has a curfew. It also ignores the fact that a VAST majority of the people within the affected area bought or rented their home(s) knowing they were in the noise impact area for LHR.

The UK government isn't alone with taking a short term and spineless approach to large public operations such as airports. If you combine that with the increases in taxation and infrastructure issues compared to the competition, it puts the UK on a downward path from a competitive standpoint.
 
skipness1E
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:51 pm

It would mean a massive increase in noise for some influential people in Kensington, Chelsea et al with the extended centreline over Buckingham Palace..... Certainly Parliament Square would have a whole new line of landers overhead!

That and some key marginals but my friends who live near Heathrow all their lives don't notice it. It is often he newcomers who shout loudest in protest.

[Edited 2012-04-11 13:31:52]
 
A388
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:54 pm

Well, there might be a positive side to this afterall: More A380 sales for Airbus and possibly an A380 stretch (A380-900) meaning a new A380 customer (Cathay Pacific) and again 50 plus orders coming from Emirates for the A380-900!!! 

A388

[Edited 2012-04-11 12:55:06]
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:54 am

Here is link to TV interview, skip to 2:50 in for airport quote.

http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbo...es-pm-all-the-way-to-jakarta/18816
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MAN2SIN2BKK
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:03 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 8):
The UK government isn't alone with taking a short term and spineless approach to large public operations such as airports. If you combine that with the increases in taxation and infrastructure issues compared to the competition, it puts the UK on a downward path from a competitive standpoint

Agreed, totally shortsighted statement from the PM; BTW, didn't he go to Eton? Maybe he promised the headmaster that he wouldn't allow any additional flights to disturb the boys' studies
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:11 am

Quoting readytotaxi (Thread starter):
under his leadership.

That means nothing, he could be gone in a couple of years and lets hope the next leader of whatever party still does not have their heads in te sand and relaises the third runway is essential.

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 6):
The other fact which came out of the interview is that the UK government would arrange for Garuda (our PM is currently in Jakarta) to gain landing rights in London. But the PM did not specify which airport ...

Well lets hope it LGW and let the PM explain that there are no decent slopts available at LHR as its bursting at the seams!

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 8):
It also ignores the fact that a VAST majority of the people within the affected area bought or rented their home(s) knowing they were in the noise impact area for LHR.

Amd of course a VAST majority of those people are either directly or indirectly employed by companies associated with LHR. I wonder how these same people would feel if Boris Island was built and they had to relocate or lose their jobs! Hmmm.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:55 am

No surprise there then.

We'll spend another £200m on another study to suss out which is the most economically and environmentally sound way of expanding airport capacity in London, and then take eight years messing about to make a decision that the results of the study are not correct and we need another study.

The plan is of course that you leave it for some other sucker to deal with.

God i despise this country sometimes. Breaks my heart to see what we've become.
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Btblue
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:40 am

By putting out a sound bite about there being no extra runway at Heathrow sends a message to those within the flight path... mainly west London. Here you have influential, wealthy voters. I recall around the time of Boris Johnson campaigning for Mayor - he proposed no extension to the congestion zone (which would have moved west). He won the vote against Ken who wanted it... Now the tories are playing a similar game with Heathrow and it just so happens to be the year we vote for a new mayor... (i.e Boris).

It's politics.

There will be a new runway. The government cannot be beating the business development drum abroad and not have the infrastructure to support it. My guess there will be a new runway at Stansted. Less homes to be displaced means fewer voters to annoy... and in the meantime, those in West London can sigh relief having been falsely put in a state of fear by the government who have now 'resolved' the matter. The west London voters are happy, and will continue to vote Tory.
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richardw
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:46 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 2):
LHR will continue to lose out on revenue that is quickly moving towards the middle east carriers.

That has already happened. There is no need to build a third runway to play catch up.
 
MAN2SIN2BKK
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:10 am

Quoting btblue (Reply 15):
There will be a new runway. The government cannot be beating the business development drum abroad and not have the infrastructure to support it. My guess there will be a new runway at Stansted. Less homes to be displaced means fewer voters to annoy... and in the meantime, those in West London can sigh relief having been falsely put in a state of fear by the government who have now 'resolved' the matter. The west London voters are happy, and will continue to vote Tory.

And which airlines will move from the centre of the action to the backwater of Stansted?
 
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Dano1977
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:48 am

Governments always make promises, then somehow get forgotton about...

1. No frontline cuts
2. Protecting the NHS budget
3. 3,000 more police officers
4. Keeping VAT at 17.5%
5. Keeping the Future Jobs Fund
6. Keeping Education Maintenance Allowances
7. Preserving tax credits for middle earners
8. Removing the “couple penalty”
9. Scrapping tuition fees
10. No bonuses for bank directors
11. 3,000 more midwives
12. Three more army battalions
13. Pupil Premium additional to the schools budget
14. Keeping Child Benefit universal
15. Stopping A&E and maternity closures
16. A Post Office Bank
17. No new nuclear power stations
18. Removing high marginal tax rates
19. No cuts to the Royal Navy
20. Automatic prison sentence for carrying a knife
21. Cutting rail fares each year
22. Keeping the Child Trust Fund for the poorest families
23. No more top down NHS reorganisations
24. No cuts to public spending this year


So don't read to much into it. And wait for the government report into Airports which the Chancellor announced during the budget.
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TeamintheSky
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:56 am

I lived long enough in the UK to realize that when Cameron says something like this, in a month or two they will announce the plan for the 3rd Runway. I mean, how many 180's have we had already?

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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:19 am

I see this as a misguided approach (no pun intended). LHR desperately needs another runway to at least alleviate the issues with slot restrictions. If more flights were able to land at LHR simultaneously, that could potentially open the market for more direct competition vs. BA and bring down prices for consumers across the board. I'm not usually much of a capitalist, but when you consider the number of people with modest means who use LHR, I believe more flights and therefore competition would be beneficial to many around the world.
 
richardw
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:27 am

People with modest means tend to fly ryanair from their local airport to Spain for their annual holidays, they can't afford the long haul APD tax for flights to say the USA from heathrow. Competition would not bring back starting prices from LHR-NYC at £269 return because of the APD tax.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:28 am

Quoting MAN2SIN2BKK (Reply 17):
And which airlines will move from the centre of the action to the backwater of Stansted?

Exactly. They can build three more runways at STN but no one from LHR will jump ship over there.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting LondonCity (Reply 6):
The other fact which came out of the interview is that the UK government would arrange for Garuda (our PM is currently in Jakarta) to gain landing rights in London. But the PM did not specify which airport ...

I would guess he has done a deal for Gatwick, as the TV interviewer said you can't fly direct at the moment and that is going to hinder trade.
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cygnuschicago
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:53 am

Since moving to London about 4 months ago, I just don't see the need for a third runway. In every single one of my 20+ arrivals since, regardless of terminal, only maximum 3 immigration desks have been open. My immigration wait time averages around 50 min, and at least two trips have had over 2h of queuing.

LHR have the desks, but don't staff them. Imagine the disaster if more landings were taking place.

Let's first get the airport working for the flights that are there, before they add more.
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PanHAM
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 24):

LHR have the desks, but don't staff them. Imagine the disaster if more landings were taking place.

well, that's not the airport, that's the government cutting spending, meaning cutting jobs. Tuesday this week around noon, even the UK and European passport desks had long qeues. Long waiting times for non citizen are quite usual at US airports as well, BTW.

A third runway would cut waiting times for departing aircraft as well, at least until the then three runways are saturated. Not that the tree huggers would be pleased about it.
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boeing773W
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting cargolex (Reply 7):
Can anyone offer more insight on the rationale behind opposing a third runway?
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 8):
The people who live near LHR don't want a 3rd runway due to their concern about additional flights=additional noise.

That's one of the reasons, and a pretty important one at that. Another issue is that advanced by the tree huggers about an increase in pollution. They argue that the cost of the extra CO2 emissions would outweigh any economic benefit of adding the 3rd runway. I was reading a study recently though which actually showed that, over the same length of time of 60 years, the economic benefits would exceed the cost of the additional CO2 emissions, even taking into account the projected rising 'per ton' cost of CO2 during that period.

There's also the issue of the destruction of communities, the uprooting of some cemetery and relocation of a church, which is apparently a heritige site.

Now when you look at that attitude, as well as the various carbon and other taxes being imposed by the UK and EU governments, people mustn't wonder why European (or British) carriers struggle or lose market share to the sand pit airlines. They also mustn't complain when these carriers grow at an exponential rate and take customers away from their EU counterparts on key routes.

I'm not saying that saving the environment should not be important but if you do it at the expense of economic growth, I doubt many people would care about the polar bear population increasing or the ice caps growing when they are losing their jobs, houses or can't afford their kids' education.

I'd love to know how many of those NIMBY's are actually employed by LHR directly or depend on its growth and development by being employed by other stakeholders.
 
nclmedic
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:18 pm

Yet only last month he said this: ""I'm not blind to the need to increase airport capacity, particularly in the South East"

and "we need to retain our status as a key global hub for air travel, not just a feeder route to bigger airports elsewhere, in Frankfurt, Amsterdam or Dubai"

(from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17437568)

'Boris' airport in the Thames Estuary will NEVER happen.

Cam's own chancellor has already come out in the past few weeks stating that we need to revisit the 3rd runway at LHR plan.


Meanwhile, the government continues to steam ahead with the most ridiculous HS2 High Speed Railway project ever, rather than spending good money on improving an extremely extensive pre-existing rail network.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 24):
In every single one of my 20+ arrivals since, regardless of terminal, only maximum 3 immigration desks have been open. My immigration wait time averages around 50 min, and at least two trips have had over 2h of queuing.

I'm a UK/Australian citizen and always fill out the arrivals card for non-EU citizens and then join which ever queue is shortest. That usually means joining the foreign national line, and then after 5 minutes realise I haven't yet moved and jumping ship to the UK national line.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
Long waiting times for non citizen are quite usual at US airports as well, BTW.

My longest wait time in the USA was 45 mins. If it wasn't for my UK passport I have no doubt I would have waited wayyyyy longer than that at LHR in the past.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 19):
I lived long enough in the UK to realize that when Cameron says something like this, in a month or two they will announce the plan for the 3rd Runway. I mean, how many 180's have we had already?

"I have complete faith in my minister"  
Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):

  
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:46 pm

In fairness I fly through LHR about twice a week, 80% short haul.

I have never, ever had to wait more than 30 mins even in the zoo that is T1, ot T3 in the early afternoon or early morning.

The facial recognition scanner booths are excellent and when they are open, my wait time is circa 10 mins tops. I get taxis into central London and usually arrange to meet driver 20 mins after scheduled landing, and am rarely late, even at the above times. I know people love to moan but LHR really isnt that bad in practical terms. It looks hideous and when things go wrong its a nightmare, but aesthetics mean nothing to me and it is a LOT simpler and less hassle than many airports I fly into - even supposed "nice" ones.

T5 an absolute dream btw.
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NUAir
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:01 pm

Judging by the length of time it took to propose, plan and approve the high speed rail line to Birmingham and the fact that a large number of us will have died from old age before the first train ever departs I think it's important to note the bizarre length of time it takes for any major infrastructure project to be completed in the UK.

So under that logic by the time the third runway is complete (let's be optimistic and pretend 2050) London will already be in need of a new airport (or two). This is probably why Boris Island is actually more logical at the end of the day.

The UK isn't Asia or North America where things get built in years or a decade, in the UK you are talking generations to build a new plexiglas bus stop.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting NUAir (Reply 30):
The UK isn't Asia or North America where things get built in years or a decade

Unfortunately the US isn't immune to failed government. Just ask the people of San Diego for example about attempt to find a long term solution to SAN.
 
Gingersnap
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting NUAir (Reply 30):
The UK isn't Asia or North America where things get built in years or a decade, in the UK you are talking generations to build a new plexiglas bus stop

The sad thing is, you're not exactly far wrong with this analogy. We like to debate things in this country about 10-20 times before anything is even considered. Once a plan is considered, it needs to be debated at least another half a dozen times before they make a preliminary decision.
This is then disputed by some disgruntled NIMBY group who then put pressure on their local MP. That MP then kicks up a fuss because he/she wants to be voted back into parliament, and the plan is then scrapped. We go back to the drawing board and debate it some more. This goes round and round in circles before they either give up (most likely outcome) or actually grow a pair and get on with it.
Once it has been approved, they then draw up plans and go about how they will accomplish this task. This then takes another 10-20 years due to disgruntled nearby residents not agreeing with the idea. Then we have protests and various other gatherings protesting the idea, before it is then sent back to parliament to be debated once more.
This country is a shambles when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Yes I have exaggerated the facts somewhat, but it's probably not so far from the truth.
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nighthawk
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 24):
Since moving to London about 4 months ago, I just don't see the need for a third runway. In every single one of my 20+ arrivals since, regardless of terminal, only maximum 3 immigration desks have been open. My immigration wait time averages around 50 min, and at least two trips have had over 2h of queuing.

LHR have the desks, but don't staff them. Imagine the disaster if more landings were taking place.

It is all about managing capacity vs workload. Sure you could open up 6 desks and process everyone in 30 minutes, but what would the staff then do for the next 30 minutes when there are no passengers to process? You cant just pay 6 employees to sit around doing nothing for 30 minutes of every hour.

Terminal capacity is timed so that the next flight arrives just as the immigration queue is starting to die down.
 
speedbird128
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 33):
Terminal capacity is timed so that the next flight arrives just as the immigration queue is starting to die down.

In all my international travel at LHR I have always waited unacceptably long compared to FRA or CDG (being non-EU national I have to clear at all these places). I have never been there when a queue has "died down". And not once, not *ever* has every desk been open.

When Iris was still going it was fabulous, but they have canned that. They seem to *want* to make me wait for ages... Great they have E-passports, but thats for EU nationals only - my country certainly doesn't have an E-passport.
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:35 pm

Airports know almost to the person how many people will be going through immigration and security lines throughout the day. Fliers are charged for the cost of running those lines. I would find it hard to believe that staffing, particularly if paid appropriately could not be matched to the number of customers. And customers could be charged a little extra for periods when extra workers need to come in for short shifts. I doubt that the extra charge would need to be much more than a couple pounds or five dollars.
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IADLHR
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:40 pm

Even if they started construction today b on a 3rd runway at LHR, by the time it was open, it seems like LHR would still be behind FRA, CDG, AMS etc. and shortly after that it might seem like LHR needs a 4th runway.

Am I correect or am I missing something?
 
babybus
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 2):
LHR will continue to lose out on revenue that is quickly moving towards the middle east carriers.

That trend is now unstoppable. They have super efficient A380s which suck passengers off other aircraft. The Middle East carriers also have the money to subsidize fares too to keep them competitive.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 7):
Can anyone offer more insight on the rationale behind opposing a third runway?

The 8 million people who live under the flight path might not be happy about it. The route goes over central London and the stacks are on the fringes. We have enough air traffic in our skies and we don't need more. A new airport out in Kent wouldn't be a problem.


Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):
Governments always make promises, then somehow get forgotton about...

Thanks for keeping tabs. You are right, we do forget too easily.


Quoting cygnuschicago (Reply 24):
Since moving to London about 4 months ago, I just don't see the need for a third runway.

Correct. It will just bring chaos to LHR and the local infrastructure.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
Gingersnap
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 37):
We have enough air traffic in our skies and we don't need more. A new airport out in Kent wouldn't be a problem.

Sure it wouldn't be a problem, if we don't take into account the amount of jobs that will be relocated. Some will be able to move or commute at a push, but the majority of jobs are taken up by the locals around Heathrow.

Granted LHR would most likely become another LCC hub for the likes of FR/U2, but that doesn't make it a good thing overall.
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TonyBurr
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:30 pm

They may not be increasing revenue by adding the third runway, but they will get the revenue by continuing to increase the taxes on tickets.
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
that's the government cutting spending, meaning cutting jobs. Tuesday this week around noon, even the UK and European passport desks had long qeues.

Precisely. So if the government is not prepared to pay for staffing for current operational levels, what on earth is going to happen during the Olympics? What will happen if there was a third runway?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
Long waiting times for non citizen are quite usual at US airports as well, BTW.

I lived in the US for 10 years, starting under an F1 visa, then a greencard and currently a citizen. Sure, I've had a number of times that I've waited close to an hour, but mostly it's been under 30 minutes. In the times I've waited close to an hour, it's been at the back-end of multiple flights with lines, a few hundred people long, stretching up the escalators at ORD, and all immigration gates open.

At LHR, you can arrive with 20 people in front of you, and only 2 desks are open and you wait an hour.

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 29):

In fairness I fly through LHR about twice a week, 80% short haul.

I have never, ever had to wait more than 30 mins even in the zoo that is T1, ot T3 in the early afternoon or early morning.

In fairness, Chris, I assume you are a UK citizen and use the ePassport gates.

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 29):

The facial recognition scanner booths are excellent and when they are open, my wait time is circa 10 mins tops.

Rarely open, and they've stopped IRIS registration about a year ago. No longer an option. What a disaster! Was a great system, now chucked away.

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 29):
T5 an absolute dream btw.

Not for non-EU citizens

Quoting speedbird128 (Reply 34):
When Iris was still going it was fabulous, but they have canned that. They seem to *want* to make me wait for ages... Great they have E-passports, but thats for EU nationals only - my country certainly doesn't have an E-passport.

Exactly. My US passport is an epassport, but that's not accepted. Only EU epassports

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 33):
You cant just pay 6 employees to sit around doing nothing for 30 minutes of every hour.

Ironically, they can't pay 6 customs officials, but they have no problem paying 6 people to manage the queue when only two desks are open.

Maybe this will all change when Heathrow East opens, but currently LHR does not run well, and a 3rd runway will only exacerbate matters.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:29 pm

Why would the third runway have to be full service?

It could be built restricted to use 8:30AM-7PM, limited to inter-EU flights only and narrowbodies only in a mixed mode configuration, all aircraft meeting stringent noise criteria, and not be built long enough to accommodate long-haul. It would take pressure off the 2 main runways, eliminate the larger spacing requirements between aircraft for most daytime ops as there would be very few narrowbodies intermingled with heavies, etc.

LHR could also look at a steeper glide path for approaches on the third runway, and steeper climbout which should be doable because inter-EU flights won't generally be fully loaded. They could even institute a max TOW for the runway with any heavier aircraft needing the main runway.

Would greatly increase daytime capacity of the airport without adding to the nighttime noise footprint. And as long as it was long enough for heavies to land in an emergency, it would be a solid backup in the case of a main runway closure.
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richardw
Posts: 3138
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 41):
..eliminate the larger spacing requirements between aircraft for most daytime ops as there would be very few narrowbodies intermingled with heavies, etc...

Intermingling heavies with narrow bodies is already being minimised as and when necessary.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 1881
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 41):

Why would the third runway have to be full service?

It could be built restricted to use 8:30AM-7PM, limited to inter-EU flights only and narrowbodies only in a mixed mode configuration, all aircraft meeting stringent noise criteria, and not be built long enough to accommodate long-haul. It would take pressure off the 2 main runways, eliminate the larger spacing requirements between aircraft for most daytime ops as there would be very few narrowbodies intermingled with heavies, etc.

LHR could also look at a steeper glide path for approaches on the third runway, and steeper climbout which should be doable because inter-EU flights won't generally be fully loaded. They could even institute a max TOW for the runway with any heavier aircraft needing the main runway.

Would greatly increase daytime capacity of the airport without adding to the nighttime noise footprint. And as long as it was long enough for heavies to land in an emergency, it would be a solid backup in the case of a main runway closure.

ikramerica, how dare you make sense! Actually this is a great idea. Keeping the curfew, restricting the departure uses for this runway etc would help blunt the NIMBY arguments. There could also be caps on the increase in the number of slot pairs each year to minimize the impact on surrounding residents.
 
richardw
Posts: 3138
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 43):
Actually this is a great idea. Keeping the curfew, restricting the departure uses for this runway etc would help blunt the NIMBY arguments.

Won't blunt the arguments against demolition and destruction to actually build the runway though, so not a great idea.
 
cygnuschicago
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 am

RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:54 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 43):
Keeping the curfew, restricting the departure uses for this runway etc would help blunt the NIMBY arguments.

Bear in mind, the anti-runway crowd is not so much the residents of Sipson. It is the rent-a-crowd group Plane Stupid, most of whom probably couldn't find Heathrow on a map.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 41):
limited to inter-EU flights only and narrowbodies only

Most of the opposition to the expansion is primarily against inter-EU flights, not long haul.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
Quokkas
Posts: 1327
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:51 pm

RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting babybus (Reply 37):
They have super efficient A380s which suck passengers off other aircraft.

But why, if you are opposed to more aircraft, would you oppose A380s sucking passengers from other aircraft? Perhaps larger (and quieter) aircraft operating at lower frequencies rather than more frequent smaller aircraft makes sense. Of course not every route would require an A380 but some routes might be suitable to upgrade to different aircraft.

Quoting babybus (Reply 37):
The Middle East carriers also have the money to subsidize fares too to keep them competitive.

Quick search with random dates (yes, I appreciate different random dates will throw up different results.)
LHR-BOM : BD/LX 569.85; LX 588.85; TK 605.40; EY 606.30; AF 658.20; QR 685.90; BA/9W 687.60; AI 687.60; GF 766.80; and everyone's bête noire, EK 977.55 (all prices £, Y inclusive taxes).

From those figures I can see how heavily subsidised EK is - not.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10018
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:17 am

No surprise at the no 3rd runway at LHR announcement. I am more interested to know their thinking on using Northolt as a de-facto third runway for UK regional and short haul only.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
richardw
Posts: 3138
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:22 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 46):
Perhaps larger (and quieter) aircraft operating at lower frequencies rather than more frequent smaller aircraft makes sense. Of course not every route would require an A380 but some routes might be suitable to upgrade to different aircraft.

Utilisation of different aircraft has already happened, with B744s being replaced with B77Ws and A380s and is likely to continue with say B767s being replaced with B787s etc.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: UK Gov Confirm NO 3rd Runway At LHR.

Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:01 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 47):
No surprise at the no 3rd runway at LHR announcement. I am more interested to know their thinking on using Northolt as a de-facto third runway for UK regional and short haul only.

That in my mind is a completely rediculous idea. Apart from the distance from LHR and the neccesity to build a hyper quick link between the two airports to transfer passengers, baggage, cargo etc, did I not read on here that the Northolt runway would have to be realligned as well.

Beggers belief really who comes up with all this half baked ideas without thinking it through.