727LOVER
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:57 pm

On tonight's 20/20, there will be a story on all the recent in-air incidents/meltdowns.

Watch & critique!
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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DLX737200
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:23 am

Diggin it so far! I like how they're spotlighting flight crews and the hell they have to put up with but they need to show customer service agents, as well. Many customer service agents (gate/ticket counter) are just as overworked and underpaid and still have to deal with being abused on a daily basis. I can relate very well to this program.

I've been saying it for years, the traveling public is getting worse. More entitled, sassy and outspoken then ever before. Maybe the airlines have generated some of this behavior with changes in policies, fees, etc but people forget that the frontline employees don't set the policies and they are just people like everyone else.
 
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DLX737200
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:49 am

Oh boy... they just called a CRJ-700 a "Baby Jet." Ehhh.....
 
727LOVER
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:54 am

Celebrity couple asks FA to tell pilot not to make announcements because of their sleeping baby???????!!!!!!

Wonder who that was.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
BMI727
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 3):
Celebrity couple asks FA to tell pilot not to make announcements because of their sleeping baby???????!!!!!!

Wonder who that was.

I'd give you 2-1 odds on Tom Cruise.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
DashTrash
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:06 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 3):
Celebrity couple asks FA to tell pilot not to make announcements because of their sleeping baby???????!!!!!!

Wonder who that was.

Somebody who needs to buy a Netjets share....
 
boeingkid
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:16 am

Here is a Link for anyone who wants to watch it

http://youtu.be/wd0Mn8kIqoY
 
Gingersnap
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:16 am

I chuckled at the footage from the UK Airline program 
Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
 
deltaguy767
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:54 pm

Quoting boeingkid (Reply 6):
Here is a Link for anyone who wants to watch it

Thanks for the link, good watch. Was that the full program?
A Good Landing is one you walk away from!
 
727LOVER
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting deltaguy767 (Reply 8):

Absolutely not,.......omitting commercials, there was probably about 45 minutes worth.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
LOWS
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting boeingkid (Reply 6):
http://youtu.be/wd0Mn8kIqoY

I'm absolutely sick of this „flying used to be soooo much better“ nonsense.

Without rehashing things everyone has said here 1000000 times. I'm going to leave it at that.
 
juantrippe82
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 10):
I'm absolutely sick of this „flying used to be soooo much better“ nonsense.

But its true, flying was better before they let the great unwashed fly circa 1978! Just kidding!   

I couldn't imagine working customer service, I couldn't take the dumb questions and demands from people. I can't stand my boss coming down on me, imagine a passenger! I have alot of respect for airline employees.
Don't worry, I'm never wrong.
 
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b727fa
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 3):
Celebrity couple asks FA to tell pilot not to make announcements because of their sleeping baby???????!!!!!!

Wonder who that was.

I'd give you 2-1 odds on Tom Cruise.

Nah, he'd just jump on the FC seat and say, "I LOVE this flight!"
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
deltaguy767
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:21 pm

ABC has the full program on it's site:

http://abc.go.com/watch/2020/166626
A Good Landing is one you walk away from!
 
ABQopsHP
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting juantrippe82 (Reply 11):
I couldn't imagine working customer service, I couldn't take the dumb questions and demands from people. I can't stand my boss coming down on me, imagine a passenger! I have alot of respect for airline employees.

Recently, during the spring break rush, I had a few customers come to me from watching at a distance to say.........They could not do what I do, dealing with customers. Stunned, how self absorbed others were, as if they were the only ones on the plane that were going to misconnect at IAH. And one overheard a customer ask me to remove someone from a flight out of IAH just so they could get on, since there were no seats left on the later flight. I just chuckle and keep on processing. Its a drastic change from when I started in the early 80's. The good thing is, I love what I do, which helps dampen the insanity that goes on, almost every day.

Keep in mind, that what we see in the media, will always be a flair for the dramatic. Just to sell the story. Although, the recent melt downs of these crew members, have even stunned us in the industry. Making me believe that American society has wound itself up too tight, and has become way too aggressive, when things dont go the way they think it ought too.

JD CRP Expressjet
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comair25
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:03 pm

Can't seem to get a VPN blocker working anyone have a link for overseas?
 
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kann123air
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 10):
I'm absolutely sick of this „flying used to be soooo much better“ nonsense.

Right! That's so ridiculous. I think flying is at its best now with new planes like the A380 and 787.
Now more than ever, moving forward with the new American.
 
traindoc
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:18 pm

I fly a lot and totally agree the public is getting worse, but every where and not just at the airport. The frontline employees really do have to put up with a lot. When I fly, I try especially hard to treat them well because of this.

True story from the ER, just to make the point about the self absorbed public! It is the day before Thanksgiving 2011 (always busy) and I have one empty bed left. A 20 year old woman comes in because of mild nausea, and shortly after her a 78 year old man with a life threatening infection who needs immediate treatment. When the 78 year old gets the last bed, the 20 something starts screaming that she was there first! Our explanation that the sickest patents get treated first did not matter. She then left AMA (against medical advice) and she signed out of the ER acknowledging that she was leaving because we gave the last bed to the sickest patient. At least, if she complains (which they frequently do) we have documented the facts of the matter.

This illustrates an important medical finding-the "Equine Paradox" there are more horses a****s than horses!   

Traindoc
 
Tbone354
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:42 pm

Guess I should come to the forum more often! This show was ancient history by the time I got around to reading about it just a scant few minutes ago. ABC is not likely to rerun it I fear. Sigh...
 
727LOVER
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting Tbone354 (Reply 18):

You realize its 2012, right?

See reply #13
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
AWACSooner
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
I'd give you 2-1 odds on Tom Cruise.

No, he'd just complain about being trapped in the closet!
 
AirCalSNA
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:08 am

Quoting traindoc (Reply 17):
Right! That's so ridiculous. I think flying is at its best now with new planes like the A380 and 787.

Another major improvement is that planes don't crash as often as they used to.
 
zchannel
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:20 am

Am I the only one that thinks the gal in the Delta Airlines Safety video is absolutely gorgeous?
ZChannel: Member FDIC
 
skycub
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:35 am

You know what I am sick of? I am sick of crew members and the media portraying flight attendants at US carriers as overworked and underpaid people. I really am.

I will be the first to admit that YES.... crew members at US regional airlines are paid very poorly.

I will also be the first to admit that YES.... crew members at MAJOR US airlines have taken pay cuts over the past decade.

And yes, I will be the first to admit that the pilots and flight attendants at US regional airlines are paid pathetically and their work rules are horrible.

HOWEVER, as a flight attendant for a major US airline, I will say that we are actually paid VERY well for what we do. We are. Maybe that is not the popular opinion to take when the AFA and the APFA are yelling about poor wages and bad working rules....but we are.

I, personally, enjoy my job. And as a result, I like to work. I like to work A LOT. I don't go to work seeing the passenger as the enemy. I don't go to work hating the company I work for. I don't go to work seeing myself as a police officer or a doctor or a waiter/waitress. I go to work as someone who has ALWAYS loved aviation and still thinks it is amazing that my "office" is flying 40,000 feet above the earth. And since I like to work... I work a lot. Yeah, I am an aviation enthusiast... I love to land at LAX or JFK and see all of the different planes from around the world. I still walk through an airport I have never been to in amazement at the architecture..... I love my job and I fly A LOT.... more than I am required to.......

That's why when I watched this 20/20 segment which included the jetBlue flight attendant who went crazy and popped a slide with a few beers... not only was I shocked my his lack of desire to be a flight attendant any longer, but I was also appalled by his comment (which was seemingly reenforced by ABC News) that we are all underpaid and overworked.

The jetBlue dude said (and I am sure ABC News loved this soundbit) that he made a whole $9,700 in his last year of flying.

I can tell you that I have been a flight attendant for over a decade and even at a low-paying regional airline pre-9/11 my annual income was almost twice that amount. Furthermore, as a flight attendant who now works for a major US carrier who flies A LOT (and I am not even half-way up our pay scale) my income last year was over $60,000. If I continue to work at the rate I do, my income will top $100,000 in a few years when I top out.

I am not bragging. That is not my intention. My intention is to say that I get sick of flight attendants complaining about being underpaid and overworked.

Yes, flight attendants have taken pay cuts over the past decade. Yes, people can say that we are paid very well for what we do considering that many of us have never been to college. I don't or won't deny any of that (which will probably make me very unpopular among other flight attendants.) But it IS the truth. In addition, WHO in the United States has NOT taken a pay cut in the past decade? I get paid in excess of $40/hr to, as a co-worker once said, "hand out peanuts, pick up trash and hope we don't crash."

I watched this 20/20 segment and I just had to shake my head. I don't care if your top out pay at a major US carrier is $35/hr or $65/hr..... I don't care. We all accepted jobs in this position for one reason or another..... mine was because of a love of the airline industry and you could pay me pennies to do this job as long as I can be around planes and airports and if someone told me I had to take a paycut..... I would STILL do this job because of my desire to be around planes and airports.

However, for a former flight attendant to complain that in his last year of flying he made a mere $9,700 is simply untrue and an insult to all flight attendants. 15 years ago as a commuter airline flight attendant I made twice that amount. His statements did nothing...NOTHING.... but make us look like minimum-wage waitresses.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
CapEd388
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:02 am

Quoting SkyCub (Reply 23):

Thank you so much for saying what a lot of us are thinking. I think we need more flight attendants like you and I think your attitude is one that we all need to apply to our jobs whether your a flight attendant, doctor, lawyer etc. You need to be passionate about your job. When you're passionate about your job, it shows, you make the experience a lot better for yourself, colleagues and customers.

My opinion has always been, if you dont like it, dont do it. I see a bunch of people (from all industries) complain about how much they hate their jobs or the companies they work for and I always say "Then why did you choose that job? Why are you at that company?" Keep in mind that you went to work for them, they didn't come to you.

I agree with you that even though flight crews have taken their share of cuts, they still get paid rather handsomely. Why didnt 20/20 interview flight members like you who love their job and love their company and the industry as a whole? Because they want to make the airlines look bad, its the industry that people love to hate.

I remember seeing a CNN interview with "Deltalina" and she was saying that she loved her job. I remember interviews with Sully, and he also loved his job, I don't think I ever heard him say anything negative about US or the industry as a whole.

Im just sick and tired of people trying to demonize airlines. I know that airlines have their flaws, but I think people are over doing it. I think its a slap in the face to loyal hard working employees like yourself, who love their job, to say that flight attendants (along with other airline employees) provide poor service and that flying sucks or that you are somehow slaves to the airlines.

Yes, flying isnt what it used to be, but at the end of the day, I know that there are a lot of good flight crews and ground staff who give it their best and try to make the flying experience as best as possible.

If people hate flying so much then they can drive. If people hate working at airlines, then they can find another job.

P.S. I love how the B6 FA is the one that acted out did the whole slide thing yet, B6 is the bad guy.
388 346 77W 787
 
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zippyjet
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting DLX737200 (Reply 2):

Oh boy... they just called a CRJ-700 a "Baby Jet." Ehhh


I call them "Barbie Jets." Your average Joe gets confused at the different models and companies of aircraft.

Quoting DLX737200 (Reply 1):
Diggin it so far! I like how they're spotlighting flight crews and the hell they have to put up with but they need to show customer service agents, as well. Many customer service agents (gate/ticket counter) are just as overworked and underpaid and still have to deal with being abused on a daily basis. I can relate very well to this program.

I've been saying it for years, the traveling public is getting worse. More entitled, sassy and outspoken then ever before. Maybe the airlines have generated some of this behavior with changes in policies, fees, etc but people forget that the frontline employees don't set the policies and they are just people like everyone else



Thank You! I've been a CSA/Gate Agent at BWI with FL soon to become WN for 10 years. Yes and No. Thank you for looking out for us. Believe it or not it's 10% of the public that makes life tougher and miserable for the 90% who treat others the way they expect to be treated. I believe in our media manic society and with the undue influence of lawyers and political correctness things seem to look like they've gone down the toilet. I'll have to watch this later tonight when I get home from work.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
macsog6
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:27 am

Quoting SkyCub (Reply 23):
I go to work as someone who has ALWAYS loved aviation and still thinks it is amazing that my "office" is flying 40,000 feet above the earth. And since I like to work... I work a lot. Yeah, I am an aviation enthusiast... I love to land at LAX or JFK and see all of the different planes from around the world. I still walk through an airport I have never been to in amazement at the architecture..... I love my job and I fly A LOT....

I wish I knew who you were and who you fly for; I'd go buy a ticket tonight.

I LOVE aviation, my father was an air-framer and a Second World War bomber pilot, my grandfather flew fabric airplanes in the First World War, and my first memories involve flying. Yes, perhaps more people like to complain about things, and maybe the entertainment system is broken - just look out the window and marvel at what you are doing! In the day, watch the clouds and earth pass below you, at night, look at the stars. For thousands of years, people wanted to do what we so often take for granted.

So SkyCub, keep flying, keep marveling at what you do, and slip the surly bonds of earth and go where the sky is always blue.

Thanks SkyCub for putting all this in perspective.

[Edited 2012-04-15 19:48:21]
Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
 
pilotfox
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:43 am

They ended up using one of my youtube videos on this show. ABC had been in touch with me the last month getting my permission to air it. The video clip was from a Air India flight I took several years ago where a little kid screamed through the aisles the entire 8 hour flight. The whole youtube video is only about 12 seconds long, and they used about 2 seconds in the show. I think its about ten minutes into the show where you used it. Here is the clip if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Aob_nQ5K1E
 
spacecadet
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:33 am

Quoting traindoc (Reply 17):
I fly a lot and totally agree the public is getting worse

The first rule of business is that every company in every industry attracts exactly the sort of customers it deserves.

If the airlines want better fliers, then they should stop this race to the bottom in terms of fares and service quality.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
LOWS
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 28):
If the airlines want better fliers, then they should stop this race to the bottom in terms of fares and service quality.

So which airline should be the first to raise prices? US consumers appear to only be focused on price. Maybe it's time for a true Y+ that restores some dignity to Y. Everyone in regular Y can enjoy paying for the bag fees and drinks and snacks.
 
milesrich
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
I'd give you 2-1 odds on Tom Cruise.

I agree, very funny, very glib, very much on point.

Quoting SkyCub (Reply 23):
I can tell you that I have been a flight attendant for over a decade and even at a low-paying regional airline pre-9/11 my annual income was almost twice that amount. Furthermore, as a flight attendant who now works for a major US carrier who flies A LOT (and I am not even half-way up our pay scale) my income last year was over $60,000. If I continue to work at the rate I do, my income will top $100,000 in a few years when I top out.

.

This flight attendant needs to go back to school and learn math or something. I was married to a Delta Fight Attendant and currently represent a legacy airline flight attendant in a divorce case. My client has been with her airline for over 30 years, i.e., her pay rate is topped out, and for extra income flies 120+ hours a month. On a "normal" 22 day schedule, i.e, a 9-5 job is 21 to 23 days a month, that is over 5.5 block hours a day, put in the hour between flights etc, and the sign in times and she is on the job more than 165 hours per month, and she is making only about $70,000.00, so where this woman comes up with $100,000.00 is beyond me. I don't think a flight attendant could be legal, and fly enough hours to make that kind of money.

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 24):
I remember seeing a CNN interview with "Deltalina" and she was saying that she loved her job. I remember interviews with Sully, and he also loved his job, I don't think I ever heard him say anything negative about US or the industry as a whole.

Sully repeatedly talked about how pilot's salaries have been cut, and that they are overworked. You didn't watch or listen very well at all. http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/busi...sully_sullenberger_pushes_for.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kePiiZ8_YA

Watch the video, and you will find you are so misinformed. He accuses airline management of using "their flight crews as ATM's." He talks about how his pay has been cut by 40%, about how his pension has been replaced by an PGC guarantee of pennies on the dollars and that the industry is going in the wrong direction.

[Edited 2012-04-16 06:40:20]

[Edited 2012-04-16 07:27:17]
 
CapEd388
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
I realize there are rules here about attacking other posters, but I get sick and tired of anti-union, right wing, ignoramuses posting Fox News like distortions and lies, and to say Sully has never said anything about the industry is just an out and out prevarication.

Wow! So because of that statement I made, I am now a union hating, fox news watching right wing republican? There is not need to insult me. I dont mind if you disagree with me, but there is not need to get personal. You obviously know nothing about me. I am a liberal democrat, you probably couldnt find anyone more liberal than I am and I do support unions and I hate Fox News.

When did I ever mention unions? My whole statement I was criticizing the media and how they characterize airlines and airline employees. Never did I touch the subject of unions.

In my original statement I didnt say "never". I said "I dont THINK I have ever heard him..." I was going by the interviews I had seen. Now obviously I have not seen every single interview he has done and I do admit, I was wrong, he has criticized the airline industry. I apologize to the forum for making that mistake.

What I meant in my original statement, and i guess I should have been more clear, was that even though flight crews have been getting their fair share of cuts, a lot of them (like skycub) maintain a professional outlook and provide high class service (like im sure Sully did). Which goes back to what I was originally saying about, passion for the job.

I really dont appreciate the attacks and I think we should learn to have a little more class.

[Edited 2012-04-16 07:27:20]
388 346 77W 787
 
WNCrew
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:27 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
I don't think a flight attendant could be legal, and fly enough hours to make that kind of money.

It's VERY doable, depending on which carrier you work for. At WN, for instance, the minimum credit for a 3-day trip is 19.5, with the highest 3-day pairings paying 28 or so hrs. There's also a lot of opportunity for time and a half every month (which is structured, guaranteed and dependable). WN's flying is very productive. It's a lot of work, but it's productive. You can fly 200+ hrs a month and sill be legal.

So yes, it's possible, and VERY common, at least at WN, but in a hub and spoke operation (vs point to point) it's harder to construct pairings as productive and high-paying so you won't often see if (and it's not always possible) at carriers like DL, AA, AS etc. Plus, WN has no cap on hours aside from FAR restrictions, some carriers actually do not allow you to fly more than a certain amount.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
milesrich
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 32):
It's VERY doable, depending on which carrier you work for. At WN, for instance, the minimum credit for a 3-day trip is 19.5, with the highest 3-day pairings paying 28 or so hrs. There's also a lot of opportunity for time and a half every month (which is structured, guaranteed and dependable). WN's flying is very productive. It's a lot of work, but it's productive. You can fly 200+ hrs a month and sill be legal.

So yes, it's possible, and VERY common, at least at WN, but in a hub and spoke operation (vs point to point) it's harder to construct pairings as productive and high-paying so you won't often see if (and it's not always possible) at carriers like DL, AA, AS etc. Plus, WN has no cap on hours aside from FAR restrictions, some carriers actually do not allow you to fly more than a certain amount.

I am not aware of Southwest's rules. It's impossible at Delta. The minimum three day trip is 14.5. Other than international trips, there are few three day parings with more than 19.5 hours.
 
EWRCabincrew
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:36 pm

I saw the show and enjoyed it, but got tired of the much used overworked, underpaid, stressed out, exhausted, abused, blah blah balh.
I have been doing this job for 26 years. I knew this job was customer service when I got hired and I still know that. In 26 years, I have learned how to deal with just about anything that comes my way with regards to human traits and personality and know how to handle myself in a dignified, professional manner every time.

With any job...don't like it - LEAVE.

I am also aware that a few bad apples will always spoil the bunch, regardless of the job, career or profession. Thankfully, they are few and the rest of us can go about and the job respectfully.
You can't cure stupid
 
WNCrew
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
I don't think a flight attendant could be legal, and fly enough hours to make that kind of money.
Quoting milesrich (Reply 33):
It's impossible at Delta.

So, while apparently not possible at DL, a FA can in-fact make that kind of money and be legal elsewhere.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
EWRCabincrew
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 35):
So, while apparently not possible at DL, a FA can in-fact make that kind of money and be legal elsewhere.

That is one thing this job offers.....flexiblity. Flexibility to work as much or as little as you want..or to make as much or as little as you want.
You can't cure stupid
 
skycub
Posts: 318
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting macsog6 (Reply 26):
I wish I knew who you were and who you fly for; I'd go buy a ticket tonight.

Thank you for the compliment. I really do appreciate that.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):

This flight attendant needs to go back to school and learn math or something.

And perhaps, my friend, someone else should go to etiquette school so they can learn it is rude to insult someone or claim they can't do math without being in that person's shoes.  

While I will freely admit that I failed college algebra the first time around, I am able to read my W-2 statement from last year.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
My client has been with her airline for over 30 years, i.e., her pay rate is topped out

I do not work for Delta. Furthermore, according to several of my friends who are also topped out at Delta, I can tell you that my hourly rate at my carrier's seven-year payscale already exceeds Delta's top-out rate. Furthermore, my carrier's top-out rate exceeds Delta's my nearly $20/hr.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
that is over 5.5 block hours a day

My carrier's minimum daily guarantee is 6.5 block hours a day and our days usually exceed that.

Furthermore, my carrier makes is rather easy to work at least one entire trip a month at time and a half.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
put in the hour between flights etc, and the sign in times and she is on the job more than 165 hours per month

I routinely FLY 140 block-hours per month while being gone over 200 hours a month.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
so where this woman comes up with $100,000.00 is beyond me.

I get it from my friends who work for my airline, who are topped-out, and who fly high-time. I also get it by figuring that I made over $60,000 a year last year and am still $20/hr below our top-out rate.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
and she is making only about $70,000.00

And $70,000 is very good pay for what we do. In 2010, the median income for US citizens was just over $26,000.

The point of my original post, however, was to contradict the 20/20 statement that all US airline crew members are overworked and underpaid. I said that I made over $60,000 last year and have friends who made over $100,000. You said your friend at Delta made $70,000. Whether it is $60k, $70k or $100k, those figures are all much higher than the median US income and a far amount higher than the JetBlue flight attendant's remark that he only made $9,700 in his last full year of flying.

(And as I stated earlier, I am speaking for major airline crew members. I do realize that the crew members at US regional carriers, unfortunately, make far less and work under much worse work rules.)
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
ASFlyer
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 35):
So, while apparently not possible at DL, a FA can in-fact make that kind of money and be legal elsewhere.

A Southwest FA can make that kind of money. At any other carrier, it's EXTREMELY difficult - you would have to fly just about every day of the week and take your 24/7 breaks on your layovers. Southwest FA's represent approximately 10% of the total number of FA's in the U.S. - for the rest of the approximately 90% their reality is far different.

Quoting SkyCub (Reply 37):
The point of my original post, however, was to contradict the 20/20 statement that all US airline crew members are overworked and underpaid. I said that I made over $60,000 last year and have friends who made over $100,000. You said your friend at Delta made $70,000. Whether it is $60k, $70k or $100k, those figures are all much higher than the median US income and a far amount higher than the JetBlue flight attendant's remark that he only made $9,700 in his last full year of flying.

(And as I stated earlier, I am speaking for major airline crew members. I do realize that the crew members at US regional carriers, unfortunately, make far less and work under much worse work rules.)

Please don't speak for major airline crew members. You really can't. Southwest Airlines pay is far above and beyond what every other U.S. airline's is, as you illustrate in several other statements you make here.

I actually agree with you in one respect - we all make a decision every day when we wake up to continue to do what we do. If we hate working as Flight Attendants then we should stop. It's as simple as that. That said, U.S. airline workers, with ONE exception (Southwest) are, by and large, not well paid. As far as being overworked, I wouldn't go that far. The jobs have their challenges but no more or less so than other jobs - just different challenges.
 
skycub
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:39 pm

ASFlyer,

First of all, please let me say that I have always read and respected your posts. I have. I think you have a great insight into the airline business.

My point, once again, however, was that whether you make $30k or $100k, a flight attendant is still making more than the average US median income.

That was my point. Not to brag.

To say that flight attendants who make at least $30k that we are overworked and underpaid is, in my opinion, an insult to people who work much harder and make much less and work five or six days a week.

There are plenty of people in the United States who make less than $30k a year and do work much harder.

I bet the poor guys working in 100+ degree Texas heat doing landscaping in my neighborhood in the summer make far less than most flight attendants with vastly inferior benefits and work in much more extreme conditions than most flight attendants.

How about police officers? Looking it up online, the median salary for a police officer is $51,000 a year.

How about fire fighters? A quick online search shows that their median salary is is $56,000 a year.

The average high school teacher in the US? $50,000 a year.

I would say any of those jobs require more education and/or are more physically demanding or more dangerous (in the case of police officers or fire fighters) than being a flight attendant.

Look, I am not putting down the job of a flight attendant. I am not saying we are uneducated and/or untrained. All I am saying is that we do make darn good money for what we do and it is not fair for the media to portray us as unpaid and overworked.

Have I had to use the plastic restraints onboard with an unruly passenger? Yes. Have I had a fire onboard? Yes (thankfully it was small). Have I tended to a sick passenger? Of course. Have I comforted a scared child flying alone? Of course. But I am certainly not a police officer, a fire fighter, a paramedic or a school teacher.

Our job IS important BUT I cringe when I hear someone say that we are "just" flight attendants or we are "just" waitresses/waters in the sky, but whether we make 30k, 40k, 60k or 100k, we are very well paid. That's all my point was.

My point was, and I have said it several times, not to brag or boast about how much we (or I) make. It was to say.... we are not the poor, underpaid workers 20/20 claimed we were.

Furthermore, I think it is a disservice to ALL flight attendants when the media portrays us that way. I think it DOES give the impression that we are glorified sky waitresses/waiters to make statements like "I only made $9,700 in my last year as a flight attendant." I think statements like that make the traveling public look at us with less respect.

Again... just my opinion.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
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b727fa
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:47 pm

I've been SO lucky to "live/work" my hobby for the last 19 years. And in MANY ways, ALL of the people who've said what they have are "right." But in many ways, there are partial truths all around. By that I mean it's RARELY as bad as the nay-sayers would have us to believe; and the bajillian-dollar a year earners are usually "results not typical" (like you see on diet commercials!) of the vast MAJORITY of crew all over.

I have had the opportunity to fly corporate (large jet ACJ/small jet Falcon), charter (sked/ad hoc), regional (several times!), mainline (dom/intl) and even off shore on contract in Africa! I've had pay grades from $15.13/hr (block) to $37/hr (duty). I've been #1 SN in by base...I've been DEAD LAST. I've been furloughed over seas. I've left jobs to "move up" and found it sometimes a plus, often a "grass is greener" situation. I've sat 10 hours unpaid airport reserve. I've been extended into 2-3 days off. I've had my work rules ignored. I've seen my seniority abrogated. I hit "They Cycle" at the wrong time. I've had more "mulligans" and "start-overs" than are "fair."

Yet, I have always followed my bliss and had opportunities to do things some people can never imagine: ETOPS proving runs, 757 Mini-Evac, 757 proving runs. TSA trainer. I've been a ground instructor, written manuals, Check Air Man. A reserve, a line holder, purser, "worker bee." Heard the bells of POS at midnight on Christmas Eve. I took my son to Sweden. I've served celebrities, people who THOUGHT they were celebrities. Held hands with frightened fliers. Cried with mourning passengers who's loved ones body is 4' below us in the hold.

And through it all I've NEVER regretted the "THING" that has brought me in, through and and back around again. It's my passion for service and while I've had hard days...and HARD years, especially after 9/11 (financially, emotionally, career track--it took me 10 years to financially recover from it), but I've had, as I said above, the most amazing experiences--good and bad; and I wouldn't trade a BIT of it. Sometimes it was such a test of my strength, of my husband's willingness to "float us" so I could pursue my dream, sometimes many tears were shed and impassioned "whys?" were uttered in frustration.

And I'm still here. I still press my uniform and shirt. I polish my shoes. I get to work early. I actually really DO my security checks and equipment pre-checks. I help with bags in the aisle. I smile. I get blankets. I listen to my guests. I still look out the window and am in awe. I am a professional Flight Attendant; and I am happy.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
skycub
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 40):
I've been SO lucky to "live/work" my hobby for the last 19 years.

And that is how I feel about my job. I did this job working for a regional where I was furloughed during a strike by another work group. I did it for a major briefly leading up to 9/11 when I was furloughed again. Now , I am STILL doing it for my third carrier and if , God forbid, something happened and I ended up furloughed yet again, I would still seek another airline to fly for.

Financial hardships in this job? I know them. I went from making hardly anything for a commuter airline and being furloughed in the spring of 2001 to going through seven weeks of unpaid training over the summer of 2001 only to fly for two months before 9/11 happened and being furloughed again.

2001? Yeah... my income due to two furloughs and a full summer of unpaid training probably came out to Steven Slater's $9,000 a year comment. It was a dang hard year and I didn't know how I was going to survive financially but somehow I did.

I heard my dad argue with me about wanting to stay in the industry. I heard "I told you so" from my mother.

Yet, I went back because I LOVE the job and I would go back again and start all over again if something happened to my current employer.

Thank you B727FA for saying it best.... "We ARE so lucky to live and work our hobby."

I would do this job for a fraction of what I make now... and would adjust my lifestyle accordingly if I had to.... as long as I got to keep living and working my hobby. I don't know how many other people, in any profession, can say that.

[Edited 2012-04-16 10:08:23]
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futureualpilot
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:02 pm

I appreciate the FAs that continue to strive to deliver a good product to our paying customers. We need more attitudes like this. Flying is stressful enough, and most people are not frequent flyers so the impressions in flight crews make will last rather than be taken as the norm. On the other side of the flight deck door, I strive to do the same. Deliver an on time, comfortable product with friendly service when I am n contact with the traveling public, without sacrifice to safety.

However, the attitude that you're lucky to do the job is part of the problem. You've put in many years of dedicated, safe service and most companies rears you with reductions in pay, benefits and QOL. The attitude hat you're lucky to hav a job or that you'd do it for a fraction of what you make now is harmful to the rest of us in the industry. Allowing cuts and reductions to our professions without resistance only acts to exacerbate the problem and make it worse for those of us who value our jobs more than a "cool view" or the chance to "work our hobby." We don't all have a significant other to float us through poor wages, nor are we willing, or should we be willing to adjust our lives to poverty wages just to fly or fly in airplanes. It isn't always as simple as "quitting and doing something else" like I hear so much, either. Take pride in more than the service you provide. You're a hugely valuable asset to your company, don't allow them to take more of your pay or push your QOL down further. There has to be a breaking point. I love the job but I wouldn't do it for free. It isn't a hobby at this level, it's a profession and we need to treat it as such. Providing safe, reliable and friendly service is but one facet. Showing up on time, be clean and pressed, and expecting reasonable wages for your service is all part of the job. Please think about the bigger picture and your fellow employees before you say you'd do the job for a fraction of what you make, because if you're not careful, before long you will be.

[Edited 2012-04-16 11:03:42]

[Edited 2012-04-16 11:06:47]

[Edited 2012-04-16 11:12:15]
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skycub
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 42):
Please think about the bigger picture and your fellow employees before you say you'd do the job for a fraction of what you make, because if you're not careful, before long you will be.

futureualpilot,

You do make very valid points. And I will admit, that when I said I would do this job for a fraction of what I make now, I meant that I don't have to make what some have claimed is "too much" money. When I said a "fraction of what I make," I still meant a FAIR and LIVABLE wage.

I have stated multiple times that I know the men and women who work for our regional carriers make less than a fair wage.

When I stated that I would do this job for less than I do now, I did not consider the many men and women in this industry who have lost their jobs due to routes being cut from mainline operations and re-assigned to lower-paid regional affiliates. You make an extremely valuable point and I appreciate that.

When I said I would do my job for less than I make now because I enjoy it and because I can live my hobby and look forward to going to work everyday, I had in mind the horrible situation in which I was once again furloughed or my airline shut down or my carrier liquidated.

I cannot agree with you enough that that we should not be willing do to so.

I do work for a successful and currently profitable airline and for that I am extremely thankful. However, I do (unlike many of my colleagues who do this strictly for a job and not a passion or a hobby or a career) go to work every day knowing that in 20 years my carrier could be the next Pan Am (The most successful airline in the world flying first on the Atlantic, First on the Pacific, First in Latin America and First Around the World), or the next Eastern (carrying more passengers than any other airline in the free world) or the next People Express (the fastest growing airline in US history and the darling of deregulation). I know that and I count my blessing every day that I do currently work for a successful and profitable airline. I do. I know that my fortunate place today could, like many airlines in the past, one day come crashing down.

When I said that I would do my job for a fraction of the price, while I totally understand how your opinion and concerns, that was not meant to mean that I would gladly see my carrier farm out its operations to commuters just to save money. If that was the case... I would be the first to be opposed to it. My statement was to infer that should I have to start over, once again, due to my carrier shutting down or a strike or a mass-furlough due to a catastrophic event and be at the bottom of the pay scale and the bottom of seniority and once again sit reserve.... I would do it.

I am, whole-heartedly, opposed to mainline jobs being taken away simply because it is cheaper for a commuter to fly it. I am whole-heartedly opposed to start-up carriers that have pay regional wages. I am and I totally see your point.

I can see where you are coming from and I appreciate it. I enjoy my job. No, I LOVE my job and hope it never would come to it again, but if I had to start over, I would. That was my point.

I hope that statement makes sense because I do mean it in all due respect and I do appreciate your comments and concerns.

In my mind, a "fraction of what I make now" would still equate a FAIR and EQUITABLE rate of pay.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
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b727fa
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:13 pm

I can share many of the above sentiments. However, I would caution anyone from interpreting my comments as being willing to work for free or not offering "resistance" when things that are/were negative.

What's most sad in all this is futureualpilot's comments is the implication that I don't value myself enough (or lowering the bar, so to speak) b/c of what I've said in an anonymous on-line forum wherein the full implication of one's sentiments cannot be experienced.

I certainly value myself, and I don't "drink the kool-aid." What I am sure of, and what will assert, and for which I will not apologize, is that I DO consider myself "lucky" or "fortunate" to have a job right now.

I am also a private pilot. When asked why I don't fly "up front," I always say, "when I 'fly' I do it for fun, for me." I also collect airline memorabilia, I go to airline shows, I subscribe to trade magazines. I non-rev for fun..."crazy," I know! Heck, I hang out on A.net! So, yes, commercial aviation IS my hobby. And I "happen" to work my "hobby." Is a mechanic who LOVES cars and subscribes to car magazines, works as a pit-crew for a stock-car team who says, "I'm happy I'm working and doing what I love--at work and off the clock" not valuing him/herself? Are they "part of the problem" and selling out b/c they take pride in their work and feel they have a pretty good deal?

I haven't always had a husband. I've scraped by. I called scheduling to get trips so I could eat the crackers off the plane. I have worked my a$$ off to get where I am. I won't apologize for being happy now.

Respectfully, "futureual" my perception of your comments is that you've shared some of the losses I (and many others of us) have. You've been disappointed by your company. Perhaps you've felt devalued. I hear you. I've felt those things, too. Your comments remind me of a crew member who's been (understandably) let down; maybe your union let you down for "selling out" or your company "failed you" b/c of BK and you lost your pension. Maybe you're a non-union pilot who's labored at a non-sked and have angst b/c you've been unable to get on with a major, or perhaps anything scheduled--especially in this environment. I could be wrong, I don't know you; nor you, me.

What I do know is I have a LOT of years in. I know the dues I've paid; I know the losses I've endured. My point is--and always has been--I have an amazing amount of gratitude to have work that I enjoy and I get to do what I love. I have done very different jobs; I was a para-legal in real estate law. I was a manager at Target. I've cleaned out evicted tenants trashed homes to pay the bills and do what's right by my family. Having done all that, and more, while on furlough, or between airlines HAVE taught me that I DO love the "work" of being a Flight Attendant--and there is NOTHING wrong with knowing on which side my bread is buttered.

Please don't visit your disillusion or perception of my lack of self-worth (for whatever reason you think that's fair game) on me. I hope you find exactly what you want and can experience joy and contentment in whatever it is you do. A career or job you don't love usually isn't "worth" doing. That's not to say sometimes you have to do "whatever it takes" but given the option, I'd rather be happy.

My final point, I find it ironic that, in a veiled way, I'm being told I'm not proud enough to fight for what's right and to "value myself" all under the guise of professional care/respect when it's USUALLY a pilot type who says, "why do you still do this? Your job doesn't need an education, can be done by anybody, is only worth $20K a year and besides, was never meant to be a career." Soooo...what is one to think?

My goal is not to be confrontational or disrespectful. I'm truly hoping to convey sincere and genuine thoughts and I have no intention of tearing down anyone. It's time to be happy...

With Kind Regards,

B727FA
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
727LOVER
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 25):
Your average Joe gets confused at the different models and companies of aircraft.

Some airport ops people as well !   
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
skycub
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:49 pm

ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:39 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 25):
Your average Joe gets confused at the different models and companies of aircraft.
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 45):

Some airport ops people as well !

Oh please.... it doesn't just stop with passengers and ground ops personnel!

I recently worked a flight with a fellow flight attendant who had just non-revved to Germany.

According to her, her family flew "some German airline that starts with an 'L'" on their new Airbus that held almost 1,000 people and had more than twenty flight attendants. LOL.

As we say in Texas.... bless her heart.

:D
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yowza
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
so where this woman comes up with $100,000.00 is beyond me.

I'm pretty sure it's a guy, not a woman. Way to not pigeon hole the job.  
Quoting milesrich (Reply 30):
I don't think a flight attendant could be legal, and fly enough hours to make that kind of money.

As others have shown it is possible if not common.

The reality is that if things were THAT bad people would leave in droves and there would be a massive correction. Don't hold your breath.

YOWza

[Edited 2012-04-16 13:50:55]
 
futureualpilot
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:15 pm

SkyCub, thanks for a well thou out and rational response. I respect your points of views and I do understand your point. It seems your views are more n line than I originally thought. I hope you continue to enjoy your job and provide a great level of service. Perhaps at some point we'll work a flit together, who knows. If that's the case, I look forward to it.

B727FA, you seem to have missed my point, or I failed to illustrate it. I meant no personal insult nor did i single you out. I have zero issue with someone who loves the job. I love my job and I said so in the post above. Between the blocks it is by far the best job out there and I can't imagine doing anything else. My issue is with those who openly proclaim that they would do the job for less, or for free. Some have even told me they would pay to do it. That is the attitude I take exception to. Nothing more. I should have done a better job explaining that in the first place.

We should all be so lucky to love what we do, and I have zero issue with feeling fortunate to have a job, particularly in this economy. When one feels so lucky that they say they would work for less? No. That kind of view of one's job is where my problem lies. That kind of self worth needs to be changed.
Life is better when you surf.
 
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b727fa
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ABC's 20/20: Chaos In The Skies, April 13th

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 48):
My issue is with those who openly proclaim that they would do the job for less, or for free. Some have even told me they would pay to do it.

As we say in the South, "O, law-Chile, NO!" I volunteer for a cause; I work for a living!

Thank you for your continued conversation and explaining your point again. I really understand what you meant now and I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for keeping it positive! Fly safe...
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.

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