GentFromAlaska
Topic Author
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Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:39 pm

The article below ran in several newspapers today including the Washington Post. I do think the legacies will have to control cost like WN to survive. But no legacy will ever become another WN.

IMO the bigger is better mindset is flawed in today's environment. With that said I do think DL idea of purchasing a jet fuel refinery is an excellent idea and outside the box thinking. If memory serves me AS although not a legacy owns fuel farm tanks in ANC which might explain their continued quarter over quarter profitability.

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/arti...ssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Thread starter):
I do think the legacies will have to control cost like WN to survive. But no legacy will ever become another WN.

So the legacies will need to ramp their labor costs up to the highest in the industry to survive?

That article has about as much meat as a vegan diet.
 
LV
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:13 pm

This article is poorly written and comes across as very pro WN... and I am generally a WN supporter. I mean he even worked in "free to move about the country". It flip flopped back and forth on the chronological order of historical events in a way that would confuse people who don't already have a basic understanding of how deregulation happened. Basically I am saying it's a waste of ink. Feel free to flame away....
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:46 pm

Since when did George Will become an airline analyst? He should stick to politics.

Quoting LV (Reply 2):
Basically I am saying it's a waste of ink.

I agree, but I wish you guys would blast these editorials via the article's comment section as opposed to just here on a.net.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
b6a322
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:02 am

Legacies becoming WN? At the rate their IT department is going with this merger, WN is becoming more like a legacy.
The content I post is solely my own opinion. It is not an official statement by/of/for nor representative of any company
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting LV (Reply 2):
Basically I am saying it's a waste of ink

Ditto...although the article could salvage some (very) small measure of respectability if it were re-titled to reflect its main subject/content which is how American Airlines is now paying the price for being last among the legacies to face the new realities that only began with deregulation ("the beginning of sorrows") ...and have since intensified sharply, especially so since 2001.

Perhaps I missed something as I carefully read the article beginning to end...nonetheless I totally failed to see how in any way the writer gave any meaningful specifics to back up the premise set forth by the title of the article...other than to say that the legacies are becoming like Southwest (why? how so? because he said/thinks so? -- that seems to be the only "evidence" offered). And certainly one of my top 'pet peeves' with regard to journalism is titles that have virtually nothing to nothing at all to do with the content of the article to which the title is attached.

So therefore yes, it is very much IMHO, a waste of ink and space inasmuch as not only does the title not fit; even the main 'story' -- what ails AA -- is IMOH weakly written and loaded with meaningless and/or out-dated self-evident "so whats?" and "ho-hum" generalities.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Thread starter):
The article below ran in several newspapers today including the Washington Post. I do think the legacies will have to control cost like WN to survive. But no legacy will ever become another WN.

It's the other way 'round. WN is starting to have a major cost problem, particularly up against NK, B6, AS, and perhaps even a post CH 11 AA.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Flighty
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:39 am

WN is becoming a legacy. Each year they ooze a little bit further into a revenue maximizing structure, which is to say, a legacy structure.
 
jman40
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting B6A322 (Reply 5):

Since when did George Will become an airline analyst? He should stick to politics.

Actually, he should just stick to baseball. That's the only thing he knows anything about.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
WN is becoming a legacy. Each year they ooze a little bit further into a revenue maximizing structure, which is to say, a legacy structure.

My thought as well...had the writer given some thought to writing an up-to-date relevent article comparing the legacies and WN, the title would indeed have been "Southwest becoming more like a legacy"...perhaps the reason the article offered no actual examples -- or even suggestions -- as to how the legacies are becoming more WN (and straightway introduced a red herring; AA's woes) is because there are none to offer that would stand up to a reality check...nor has there ever been as much as a shred or hint of evidence that the legacies are becoming more like WN...except perhaps that WN forced the legacies to abandon their rapacious, extortionary pricing practices on walk-up fares...at least in markets where the legacies and WN compete.

OTOH, there are at least several real-world points that could be made for WN becoming more like a legacy, starting with their FF program...which, like those of the legacies, has 1) created an overt caste system (A-list) and 2) been de-valued by capacity controls restricting redemption of credits for free travel, especially to destinations customers typically want to fly to, on somewhat desirable (not necessarily peak) dates/times/routings.

And while WN may not yet have gotten to the same "labor is nothing more than bothersome overhead to be treated with virtual contempt" mentality of the legacies' management and their regional surrogates, any thoughtful, impartial observer -- or insider -- would admit that WN and its People have largely "lost that luv'ing feeling" between management and labor since the departure of Herb and Colleen from the everyday world of WN. Further, WN's fares are becoming more like those of the legacies...except that WN's fare for the same city pair, same date at comparable time and routing convenience, is often more.

All of the above said, WN remains my airline of choice whenever possible/practical (rarely, since they don't fly to BJI, TVF, GFK or FAR), assuming their fare is no more than $50-75 higher than the competition, for two differences that set them apart from the legacies: 1) no change fee if my plans should change and 2) no charge for up to 2 pieces of checked baggage. ...With regard to these, if only the legacies actually were becoming more like WN!
 
GentFromAlaska
Topic Author
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 6):
I totally failed to see how in any way the writer gave any meaningful specifics to back up the premise set forth by the title of the article...other than to say that the legacies are becoming like Southwest

Pet peeve or otherwise. What you fall short in considering is the requirement to forward content in its original form. Anything else could be viewed as a form of infringement. There is a little leeway.

Lets not shoot the messenger. The article title was posted in its original content for discussion. Your    response leads me to believe it has served its purpose; whether your own beliefs and views are left, right or dead center.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
chrisjw
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:07 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Thread starter):
If memory serves me AS although not a legacy owns fuel farm tanks in ANC which might explain their continued quarter over quarter profitability.

FWIW, AS is a legacy carrier and is the last legacy carrier to not file bankruptcy.
 
GentFromAlaska
Topic Author
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting chrisjw (Reply 12):
AS is a legacy carrier and is the last legacy carrier to not file bankruptcy.

In whose eyes? From a regulatory aspect certainly not the DOT/FAA and certainly much of the flying public. If this were true I suspect AS would have been exempted from applying for the PDX-DCA and SAN-DCA beyond perimeter slots as a LCC. I think most travelers understand the U.S. legacies to be AA, DL, UA, US; or the global fliers.

I liken AS to the smallest big airline; mentioned here. http://www.smartertravel.com/photo-g...ml?id=142&photo=24775&max_photos=7
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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ADent
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 6):
nonetheless I totally failed to see how in any way the writer gave any meaningful specifics to back up the premise set forth by the title of the article.

You have the order backward. Typically the article is written by the writer, then the layout editor writes the title without any input or knowledge of/by/from the writer.

So it should be "I totally failed to see how in any way the editor gave gave a meaningful title to back up the premise set forth in the article."
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting B6A322 (Reply 5):
Legacies becoming WN? At the rate their IT department is going with this merger, WN is becoming more like a legacy.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
WN is becoming a legacy. Each year they ooze a little bit further into a revenue maximizing structure, which is to say, a legacy structure.


We often "joke" that everyone else wants to be like WN, yet WN is trying to be like everyone else!

Joke is in quotes, of course, because it isn't something we find particularly funny (though some here might).
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
It's the other way 'round. WN is starting to have a major cost problem, particularly up against NK, B6, AS, and perhaps even a post CH 11 AA.

This is essentially what happened to the smaller majors in deregulation as well, they got nibbled to death from the bottom by the likes of WN, and beaten down by the huge airlines. Only in this case WN is in the middle and they are only getting "beaten down" by their lack of ability to provide meaningful INTL service at this time.

It will be very interesting to watch them over the next 3-5 years.
 
chrisjw
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 13):
In whose eyes?

Well, the definition of a legacy carrier is an airline that had routes established before deregulation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_carrier

As well as just about every major aviation corporation, such as AviationWeek saying.

Quote:
Aviation Week named Alaska the 2010 top-performing legacy carrier, despite being the smallest of the United States network carriers.

J. D. Power and Associates has awarded them with the best highest customer satisfaction for traditional carriers four years in a row, competing against...you guessed it, all the other legacy carriers.

I'll agree that they don't necessarily fit the same model as the other legacy carriers. But they are a legacy carrier nonetheless
 
phxa340
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 16):
Only in this case WN is in the middle and they are only getting "beaten down" by their lack of ability to provide meaningful INTL service at this time

Do we know of any legacy carriers that lose money on their domestic services but make it up on their international services ?
 
boeing773er
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:54 pm

I think the title of the article should of been "WN becoming more of like a Legacy"

Think about it, they have "hubs" even though they don't care to call them that, most people know they are hubs.
WN now is starting to offer inflight entertainment (Wi-Fi, something that the 1980s WN would ever thought of offering)
Pursuing large mergers, and operating more than one type of plane (Oh, the 717's are going away in a few years. Well for the time being they operate more than one fleet type)
Their airfare is becoming TOO expensive, not the same old LLC like they use to be.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:54 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 9):
2) been de-valued by capacity controls restricting redemption of credits for free travel, especially to destinations customers typically want to fly to, on somewhat desirable (not necessarily peak) dates/times/routings.

Capacity on award tickets is exactly as restricted as capacity on revenue tickets, no? If there are WGA tickets available, then there are also WGA award tickets available. Pick a route and click between the "dollars" and "points" matrices on southwest.com. They are identical in terms of availability.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
GentFromAlaska
Topic Author
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting chrisjw (Reply 16):

Fair enough.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting jman40 (Reply 8):
Since when did George Will become an airline analyst? He should stick to politics.

Actually, he should just stick to baseball. That's the only thing he knows anything about.

And even that's debatable, I used to like his baseball writing but in the last few years...its become horrid.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
PGNCS
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 1):
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Thread starter):
I do think the legacies will have to control cost like WN to survive. But no legacy will ever become another WN.

So the legacies will need to ramp their labor costs up to the highest in the industry to survive?

Great point! The bottom line is that the two models are converging. I agree with the consensus that the piece isn't a gem, but there is no doubt that WN has become more like a legacy, and the legacy carriers have all learned to minimize their costs and have become in essence LCCs, i.e. more like WN. Nobody has the cost structure they used to have, and now WN faces the unprecedented position (for them) of having a dramatically narrowing cost gap compared to the remaining legacy carriers.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 5):
Perhaps I missed something as I carefully read the article beginning to end...nonetheless I totally failed to see how in any way the writer gave any meaningful specifics to back up the premise set forth by the title of the article...other than to say that the legacies are becoming like Southwest (why? how so? because he said/thinks so? -- that seems to be the only "evidence" offered).

It's an editorial. It's his opinion. It says so up front. Feel free to disagree.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 14):
We often "joke" that everyone else wants to be like WN
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 14):
Joke is in quotes, of course, because it isn't something we find particularly funny (though some here might).

Not "everyone."
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:27 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
Capacity on award tickets is exactly as restricted as capacity on revenue tickets, no? If there are WGA tickets available, then there are also WGA award tickets available



Time once was (until early-mid 2000s iirc) that WN flight credits could be redeemed for free travel on any flight having seats available, except for about 5-6 blackout dates each year...even if only "Anytime"/unrestricted full-Y fares were available for purchase on said flight. So, yes, WN's FF awards program has been devalued...therefore (to whatever degree), WN has become more like the legacies than the converse.



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 22):
It's an editorial. It's his opinion. It says so up front. Feel free to disagree.

Even in an editorial...shouldn't there be a least one (or more) factual "for instance(s)" offered to support the writer's opinion?
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting chrisjw (Reply 11):
AS is a legacy carrier and is the last legacy carrier to not file bankruptcy.

Didn't AS file for bankruptcy back in the 80's before Kelly became CEO??
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 24):
Didn't AS file for bankruptcy back in the 80's before Kelly became CEO??

No. In its pre-Ron Cosgrove and Bruce Kennedy history (before 1972), Alaska was almost invariably teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, which would have meant near-certain liquidation. (that was back in the days before airlines figured out how to use Chapter 11 as a legalized scam.)

Nonetheless, a fast-talking Charlie Willis (and predecessors) somehow, seemingly against all odds, managed to keep Alaska out of bankruptcy/liquidation until Cosgrove/Kennedy righted the proverbial ship and laid the foundations for the thriving airline Alaska has since become.

During the perpetually financially-troubled Willis years, there was a Dennis Kelley in senior management at Alaska Airlines, not to be confused in any way with John Kelly who became CEO in 1995.
 
PDX88
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 9):
With regard to these, if only the legacies actually were becoming more like WN!


Legacies become like WN? You mean drop international flying, first and business class, in-flight entertainment, all fleet types larger than B737s, buy on board food, elite status, membership clubs, codeshare and interline connections, and ease of booking and price comparison through 3rd party websites, whilst raising labor costs and hiring annoying singing flight attendants? Yes let's sacrifice all this in the name of free bags. Gimme a break.

Seriously, other than the free checked bags and no change fees WN is so famous for, what does this airline have that the legacies don't?
 
phxa340
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 26):
Seriously, other than the free checked bags and no change fees WN is so famous for, what does this airline have that the legacies don't?

Point to point flying
Fantastic perception in the media
Empowered workforce that is cross-utilized leading to a 'happier' workforce
A very fair Rapid Rewards programs that actually as seats

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 26):
buy on board food, elite status,

A - List and A-list preferred are elite status minus the first class cabin , and give me a free WN snackbox over a stale 10 dollar sandwich anyday

While yes they are becoming very much like a legacy and they need some differentiation ... its not all doom and gloom like everyone is predicting.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2769
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RE: Legacies Becoming More Like WN

Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
WN is becoming a legacy. Each year they ooze a little bit further into a revenue maximizing structure, which is to say, a legacy structure.

Very true.

WN's advantage in the past is now eroding as other carriers cut and evolve to compete. WN are not really staying ahead of the game and its making it easier for others to fight back.

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