phxa340
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Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:50 pm

I am wondering if any of you could shed some light on why the only long haul service PHX currently supports is a daily BA flight to LHR. I searched the database and could only find things from 2005 when LH pulled out. PHX is the 12th largest metro area by population in the United States with about 4.2 million people in 2010. From all accounts, the BA flight does good going out with full flights and decent yeilds.

I know PHX is at a disadvantage due to its proximity with LAX but for such a large city and with a median income of $41,207 , the potential seems to be there for at least 787/330 service to Asia and or Europe. You would think with all the feed US can provide LH , it would support a flight to Frankfurt ? I apologize if this has been talked about already ....
 
LAXintl
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:58 pm

US Airways has talked about that once the A350s show a link to Europe, or Asia could be possible.

However look at it this way. What does Phoenix provide? Its neither a global tourist spot, nor a large center for commerce either. Even larger US metro's, draw quite limited foreign air-service for their population sizes.

Even a US long-haul service wont be supported on the back of Phoenix demand solely, but reliant on utilizing the PHX hub for feed across the Southwest region.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
HPRamper
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:01 pm

A lot of it is due to US being a Star carrier and it being thus more convenient for the European carriers to simply fly to PHL or CLT where pax can connect nearly everywhere in the network.

Then you also have the heat issues at PHX which make heavy ops difficult especially in summer.

As for the 787...well, it's still very early and the jury is still out. I would expect many more markets to see the 787 than have already been announced. PHX certainly may see it in the future.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:08 pm

Intercontinental long haul service depends on the ability of an airline to fill the front cabin with premium fare customers. Like it or not, tourists rarely provide the revenue necessary to profitably operate a route. What are the main businesses and industries in the PHX area? Is much of their customer base located overseas, or are most of their trips domestic?
From what little I know about the Phoenix region, it seems to be a regional financial center and to have some high tech/semiconductor manfacturing in the south Valley. Would people from these offices need to travel to Japan, or do they need to go to SJC? Do the bankers need to go to JFK, or do they need to go to ZRH? I'm not flaming PHX, I just don't know of a big international business community there. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.
 
phxa340
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
I just don't know of a big international business community there

Honeywell - 12,000 + employees
Intel - 10,000 + employees
Freeport Copper - 8,000 + employees

PHX also draws from the Tucson market where Raytheon employees 1,000s as well. So you are right not a huge international market but I know Intel consistently flies their employees globally and they are the 5th largest employer in AZ.
 
chrisair
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
What does Phoenix provide? Its neither a global tourist spot, nor a large center for commerce either. Even larger US metro's, draw quite limited foreign air-service for their population sizes.

Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the country. What other "larger US Metro" has "quite limited foreign air-service?"
 
HPRamper
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 5):
Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the country. What other "larger US Metro" has "quite limited foreign air-service?"

It's not the 6th largest metro though. It's somewhere between 11 and 13. Which to be fair is still plenty big. But I agree with the point that for its size, it definitely has very little international service. Less than many metros that are much smaller.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:04 pm

Honeywell, Intel, and Raytheon all have large manufacturing bases in Arizona, but the headquarters, and C-suite folks are in Morristown, Santa Clara, and Boston, respectively. Freeport is the only one based in Phoenix, and yes they have global operations, though many of these are in third world areas not readily served by non-stop flights from the US, such as Indonesia and the Congo. Micropchip Technology is HQ'ed in Chandler, but with only 6000 employees, I don't know how many need to fly to South Korea or Japan on a daily basis in J class.
As for feed to Asia, if US wanted to connect people through PHX, it could be done. Maybe service to NRT, and PEK or ICH. But for someone flying from say MCI or ABQ to Asia, it would be just a quick and to connect in LAX or SFO, plus those cities have many more Trans-Pac options. Perhaps PHX suffers from the Philadelphia syndrome in that it is just too close to a major international airport to offer a wide variety of international service.
 
yellowtail
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:19 pm

Well there is a very big employer in PHX....Tempe actually... that we are all forgetting....but alas doubt any of those folks pay for their air tickets.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
phxa340
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 7):
Honeywell, Intel, and Raytheon all have large manufacturing bases in Arizona, but the headquarters, and C-suite folks are in Morristown, Santa Clara, and Boston, respectively.

I am thinking a Y heavy aircraft would make sense , similar to what Virgin does out of LGW. Decent yeilds can be made. There is also a very affluent customer base in parts of PHX that could probably fill up the remaning J seats. I am not sure a fully loaded A330 or 787 could make it out of Phx in the summer thought when temps are pushing 48 C
 
Tdan
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:50 pm

PHX is in a TERRIBLE geographic location for flights to Europe and Asia. There are basically no flow opportunities beyond the hub for these long-haul destinations. As such, any route to Europe or Asia would have to rely more on local traffic than most hubs.

Also, PHX isn't a big O&D center for international traffic, especially international business traffic. There are few large, foreign expat communities from Europe/Asia to support a constant flow of year-round traffic. So all that being said, even though PHX is a large city, the air travel market to Europe and Asia is considerably smaller than other similarly sized US cities. The PHX long-haul market size is more comparable to STL, IND and RDU than cities like IAH, SFO and BOS
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
phxa340
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 10):
PHX is in a TERRIBLE geographic location for flights to Europe and Asia. There are basically no flow opportunities beyond the hub for these long-haul destinations

PHX can catch the southern Utah , South Arizona, and NM population. I am not saying PHX will support a ton of high frequency international widebodies , but it would seem that PHX would support more than a daily BA flight to London.
 
runzel
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:15 am

There's about eleventy-eleven reasons given here why international flights cannot be filled out of PHX.

Where does BA get their pax?
 
Beardown91737
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:58 am

Quoting runzel (Reply 12):
Where does BA get their pax?

the same place they get their NY and LA PAX... England.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:59 am

Quoting PHXA340 (Thread starter):
I am wondering if any of you could shed some light on why the only long haul service PHX currently supports is a daily BA flight to LHR.

I have flown the BA PHX-LHR flight at least 30 times so far. BA does well on the PHX flight due to lots of British business traffic between Arizona and the UK. On the tourist side of things the big draw for PHX is the Grand Canyon, Scottsdale, great winter weather, golf.

Back when America West and BA were partners, I use to see plenty of british tourists connecting onto HP metal bound for FLG.

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
I just don't know of a big international business community there.
British firms with a presence in Arizona:

HSBC Group
British Petroleum
BAE Systems
Rio Tinto
Tesco
Caparo Group
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:31 am

In my experience the BA flights were always full, albeit I always travel in economy which, as many have stated before me, doesn't pay the big bucks. However don't forget that just a few years ago the PHX-LHR flight was stopped for a while; that tells me that there isn't an enormous market.
Fortune favours the brave
 
phxa340
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
that tells me that there isn't an enormous market.

Agreed but then the flight was upgraded from the 77E to the 744.
 
azstar
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
Intercontinental long haul service depends on the ability of an airline to fill the front cabin with premium fare customers. Like it or not, tourists rarely provide the revenue necessary to profitably operate a route. What are the main businesses and industries in the PHX area? Is much of their customer base located overseas, or are most of their trips domestic?
From what little I know about the Phoenix region, it seems to be a regional financial center and to have some high tech/semiconductor manfacturing in the south Valley. Would people from these offices need to travel to Japan, or do they need to go to SJC? Do the bankers need to go to JFK, or do they need to go to ZRH? I'm not flaming PHX, I just don't know of a big international business community there. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

Exactly. The problem with PHX is not the number of passengers, but the low yield.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
Intercontinental long haul service depends on the ability of an airline to fill the front cabin with premium fare customers. Like it or not, tourists rarely provide the revenue necessary to profitably operate a route

I'm not an accountant, nor an expert in any of this. However, if that statement were true, that steerage rarely provides sufficient revenue, why has Singapore discontinued all business class on it's 345 non stops into LAX and JFK (or EWR, I can't remember which), as has KLM on its all business class flights into Houston? 3 very profitable routes one would think. I don't question that J brings in a boatload of cash when it flies full, but it is foolish to underestimate the revenue generated on low(er) cost fares.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
azstar
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 18):
I'm not an accountant, nor an expert in any of this. However, if that statement were true, that steerage rarely provides sufficient revenue, why has Singapore discontinued all business class on it's 345 non stops into LAX and JFK (or EWR, I can't remember which), as has KLM on its all business class flights into Houston? 3 very profitable routes one would think. I don't question that J brings in a boatload of cash when it flies full, but it is foolish to underestimate the revenue generated on low(er) cost fares.

No one is saying that the economy cabin is not important. It must have a certain load factor to pay the expenses of the flight, and frequently (but not always) generates a profit. However, it's the premium cabins that really drive the profitability factor on international flights.
 
phxa340
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:47 pm

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
Intercontinental long haul service depends on the ability of an airline to fill the front cabin with premium fare customers.

Agreed. But BA is charging a nice premium of about 300-400 dollars more for its PHX flights than back tracking to LAX and still they are filling their cabin. I am thinking LH could at least fill a 343 in PHX and make a mild profit.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 20):
I am thinking LH could at least fill a 343 in PHX and make a mild profit.

LH disagrees. They tried and failed back in 2003.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
phxa340
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 21):
LH disagrees. They tried and failed back in 2003

True this route was a victim of the post 9-11 fallout, some say BA were looking at pulling out but they have been flying this route for a while and upgraded the aircraft , fyi ... nothing better than seeing a 744 land in the desert sunset !
 
jfk777
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:07 pm

One reason PHX does NOT have Long haul is USairways and their split east/west pilot seniority list issues. IF US had one pilot list then two A330 would take off for FRA and London every day. Then maybe another one for Tokyo too.
 
phxa340
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
A330 would take off for FRA and London every day

Could a fully loaded A332 take off from PHX in the summertime to FRA, LHR , or NRT without taking a payload restriction ?
 
PGNCS
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
One reason PHX does NOT have Long haul is USairways and their split east/west pilot seniority list issues. IF US had one pilot list then two A330 would take off for FRA and London every day. Then maybe another one for Tokyo too.

Please explain this.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 18):
as has KLM on its all business class flights into Houston?

KLM's all J class service from AMS to IAH by Privatair was discontinued because UA was able to get the Shell contract away from KLM. Without a certain number of seats contracted weekly, this plane became unviable.
 
Tdan
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
One reason PHX does NOT have Long haul is USairways and their split east/west pilot seniority list issues. IF US had one pilot list then two A330 would take off for FRA and London every day. Then maybe another one for Tokyo too.

Crew issues would not prevent these routes from operating. They would be crewed as a 'W' pattern out of PHL and overnighting twice in Europe and once in PHX. Slots in LHR and FRA are more of the issue as well as demand.

Quoting IAHWorldFlyer (Reply 26):
KLM's all J class service from AMS to IAH by Privatair was discontinued because UA was able to get the Shell contract away from KLM. Without a certain number of seats contracted weekly, this plane became unviable.

Not true. CO had the contract well before the merger, though quite a few Shell employees still used KL (particularly those based in Europe). Once CO left Skyteam, it was just a matter of time (or until the contract with Privatair expired) before KL consolidated to one flight as the flow beyond IAH evaporated. Same reason why AF went from two flights to one and reduces gauge in the winter.
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
ssteve
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 11):
PHX can catch the southern Utah ,

That would be bizarre. LAX is effectively closer than PHX to the St. George "Dixie" area where most of the Southern Utah population is. And that means driving past LAS. SLC is also much closer.

If you're talking the smaller population around Moab, SLC and DEN are both closer. PHX is effectively nowhere near Utah.
 
EricR
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:00 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 17):
Exactly. The problem with PHX is not the number of passengers, but the low yield.

Yet BA charges AND receives a significant premium to its flights when compared to other flight options. Check out prices on BA versus other options and you will see the substantial premium across all classses. If the yield wasn't there, BA would not be able to charge the premium it does. I wouldn't let domestic yields (which are driven down by virtue of the large US/WN presence at PHX) dictate yields on international flights.


I think a big reason PHX does not have more international service is because of three large factors:

1. Connections - with the exception of a handful of cities in the United States, connections represent a decent portion of the load factor on international flights. PHX's geographic location limits the number of connecting passengers it can funnel on to international flights, especially on flights bound to Europe/Mid East/Africa.

Compare this to places such as DFW, ATL, CLT or DTW where they have massive hubs in the middle or eastern part of the U.S. to help funnel passengers on to international flights to Europe/Mid East/Africa.

Therefore, PHX has to rely almost solely on its local O&D. If places like DTW, CLT, DFW, ATL had to rely solely on O&D to support its flights, I do not believe they would see anywhere near the number of international routes that they do today.

2. Hub carrier / Alliance partner revenue sharing - The main airline out of PHX, US, has no suitable aircraft for flights to Asia and does not have close alliances (revenue sharing) with any international partners to help provide feed for international flights. If US had revenue sharing with the likes of ANA or LH, I could see a route to NRT or FRA launched from PHX. However, US seems content with routing flights to Europe through CLT and PHL due to the better connection feed and Asia is not on their radar at the moment.

3. Limited overseas ethnic communities in Arizona - PHX does not have any large overseas ethnic communities to help support an international flight. I think of LO to ORD or TP to BOS as good examples of how large ethnic communities help support international flights. As ethnic communities grow, so do business ties between these ethnic communities and their homeland.
 
jfk777
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 25):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
One reason PHX does NOT have Long haul is USairways and their split east/west pilot seniority list issues. IF US had one pilot list then two A330 would take off for FRA and London every day. Then maybe another one for Tokyo too.

Please explain this.

The pilots at USairways still have two seniority lists, the old America West which was based in Phoenix and the old USair based on the east coast. The list have not been integrated.
 
drerx7
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 5):
What other "larger US Metro" has "quite limited foreign air-service?"

Well as mentioned the metro area is further down the list...but to indulge the question - San Antonio...
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
User avatar
RWA380
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:59 pm

Quoting IAHworldflyer (Reply 3):
What are the main businesses and industries in the PHX area? Is much of their customer base located overseas, or are most of their trips domestic?

American Express, after 9/11 disaster took down the Amex building next to the trade center towers, Phoenix became the financial HQ for Amex.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
hz747300
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 11):
PHX can catch the southern Utah , South Arizona, and NM population. I am not saying PHX will support a ton of high frequency international widebodies , but it would seem that PHX would support more than a daily BA flight to London.

I still think it is yields. Yes, there are lots of businesses in Phoenix, and Arizona, that have international presence, but I do not believe there is enough international travel by these firms from Phoenix, that would make a direct flight work. LH is probably the best example of that having been tried in addition to the BA flight.

For Arizonans who want to see Europe, flying BA to London is acceptable, or routing 1-stop through many east coast locations is fine as well. And vice versa, for French arms dealers living in Scottsdale, they can route through London, or an east coast 1-stop too on their way to and from their other home.

For most, I don't think it is a big deal. Phoenix is not an urgent city like Hong Kong or New York, it's too hot. So most people it's ok to take the stop in between.

It was really profitable, I believe US would have stepped up already to a Star Hub in Europe.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 14):
Rio Tinto

We could argue BHP as well, right? I know it's dual headquartered in London and Melbourne.

In the end though, how much business travel can these businesses support, even if you included the existing 1-stop services.

[Edited 2012-04-17 18:03:47]
Keep on truckin'...
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 30):
The pilots at USairways still have two seniority lists, the old America West which was based in Phoenix and the old USair based on the east coast. The list have not been integrated.

As was mentioned earlier, the seniority lists do not prevent US from flying intl routes.

Quoting EricR (Reply 29):
Limited overseas ethnic communities in Arizona

Exactly. The hispanic population here in PHX translates into routes primarily to Mexico.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:28 am

PHX and its suburbs like Scottsdale have a pretty decent Asian esp Indian community, who have to connect from NYC, DEN, LAX, SFO etc to arrive there.

The fact that LH had pulled out, though, means that the market for non-stops from Europe are less yielding and that the huge Star alliance domestic market trounces the need for LH to go direct, esp when US has such good links to PHX.

Pity, but having a 787 or A350 route in the future wouldn't hurt any airline, I'm pretty sure there is a sizable market for couple more flights from Asia and Europe.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
HPRamper
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 31):
Well as mentioned the metro area is further down the list...but to indulge the question - San Antonio...

 
Phoenix is far bigger than San Antonio both in city and metro populations. Does SAT have more international presence than PHX?
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 35):
PHX and its suburbs like Scottsdale have a pretty decent Asian esp Indian community

The asian/indian population in PHX isn't large enough to support daily service to anywhere in Asia with the exception of NRT, but only in combination with a NH JV for ongoing/connecting traffic.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
phxa340
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:05 am

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 33):
It was really profitable, I believe US would have stepped up already to a Star Hub in Europe.

I can't agree with this just because US priorities are clearly not internationally driven. They deferred their A330 deliveries to 2013. If BA can make London work , I think US can make at least one flight work to another star hub or NRT.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 24):

Could a fully loaded A332 take off from PHX in the summertime to FRA, LHR , or NRT without taking a payload restriction ?

No.

An A332 needs a little over 12,000 ft of runway to takeoff at MTOW from PHX (elev. 1,100ft ) in ISA plus 15C conditions, (meaning around 28 Celsius at PHX).

We all know it can get much hotter than that in Phoenix, and considering their longest runway is only 11,489ft, a fully loaded A332 to Europe on a 35C day aint gonna happen.

So, to sum up, the problem with PHX and long haul flights is very simple. Just pick one of the two reasons below.

1. PHX's distance from Asia/ Europe combined with the lack of premium traffic would mean very little yields for the airlines.
.
2. Longest runway not long enough for fully loaded jets on hot summer days. No to mention the elev. of the airport (1,100ft) not helping the situation.

PHX needs a 14,000 ft runway, and a right aircraft (787, A350) for long haul to flourish out of Arizona.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:13 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 37):
The asian/indian population in PHX isn't large enough

If I remember correctly, the Indian population in the Phoenix area is just over 30,000. The Bay Area has an Indian population close to 250,000 and it cant make a flight to India work.
It is what it is...
 
PHX787
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:35 am

Well from a fello Phoenician (Nice username, my friend   )

Quoting PHXA340 (Thread starter):
I am wondering if any of you could shed some light on why the only long haul service PHX currently supports is a daily BA flight to LHR.

A lot of people like this flight, and actually, I have heard it is quite full, despite it being a Oneworld carrier. This is why I can see a route to Asia with *A being successful here.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
US Airways has talked about that once the A350s show a link to Europe, or Asia could be possible.

I've said this a million times, there have been many talks of utilizing the eastern 330s from PHX to NRT (I believe that the Japanese government many times gave them permission for this route, actually) but this is all relying on how quickly the East and West merge happens.


Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
However look at it this way. What does Phoenix provide? Its neither a global tourist spot, nor a large center for commerce either. Even larger US metro's, draw quite limited foreign air-service for their population sizes.

You'd be surprised. Phoenix, as we have stated many times, is a huge and thriving city. I emphasize HUGE. Not to mention a growing tourist establishment. People like going to the resorts in Scottsdale, or to the Grand Canyon, or Sedona. I believe international routes added to PHX would actually help out the tourist industry here in AZ.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 2):
As for the 787...well, it's still very early and the jury is still out. I would expect many more markets to see the 787 than have already been announced. PHX certainly may see it in the future.
Quoting EricR (Reply 29):
If US had revenue sharing with the likes of ANA or LH, I could see a route to NRT or FRA launched from PHX.

Like I stated, a buddy of mine working for NH has stated that once they begin expanding with the 787 they'll most likely codeshare with US on a flight to here. I've heard from my friend that this is rumored to be 'inevitable" which sounds to me like once the economy picks back up, we could be seeing more expansion in the nation's largest urban expansion.
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dlramp4life
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:09 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41):
Well from a fello Phoenician (Nice username, my friend  

I live and work in PHX as well. yay PHX

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41):
You'd be surprised. Phoenix, as we have stated many times, is a huge and thriving city. I emphasize HUGE. Not to mention a growing tourist establishment. People like going to the resorts in Scottsdale, or to the Grand Canyon, or Sedona. I believe international routes added to PHX would actually help out the tourist industry here in AZ.

I would like to see more international air service in PHX besides BA, but I do not see any other carrier coming to PHX..US A330s in PHX....I am not holding my breath....

I posted a topic about this a couple months ago
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:14 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41):
You'd be surprised. Phoenix, as we have stated many times, is a huge and thriving city. I emphasize HUGE. Not to mention a growing tourist establishment. People like going to the resorts in Scottsdale, or to the Grand Canyon, or Sedona. I believe international routes added to PHX would actually help out the tourist industry here in AZ.

I agree with you completely. Many on here comment about PHX, and yet have little to no real world experience in the valley. However, I just don't think that the PHX demographics and median income can support premium intl traffic. The BA flight is unique as the location of LHR allows connections from the rest of Europe, and the business interests help fill some J/F seats. LH's past flight didn't have these advantages.
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hz747300
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:59 pm

So if US were to ignore the senator from Texas and buy AA, it would actually hurt PHX's chances, right? Since the only long haul is already a One World flight. Maybe a JAL codeshare to NRT? Certainly, no where else in Europe.
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phxa340
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 44):

So if US were to ignore the senator from Texas and buy AA,

Well assuming US maintains the PHX hub , BA would love it as it gets more Oneworld feed but yes it would probably kill any other chance for a European flight. But maybe just maybe .... JAL could add a 787 flight to Narita or Haneda.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 40):
If I remember correctly, the Indian population in the Phoenix area is just over 30,000. The Bay Area has an Indian population close to 250,000 and it cant make a flight to India work.

Has any airline tried SFO-India nonstop ? That half-hearted effort by 9W doesn't really count.

With the 787-8 or 787-9, I think UA should definitely take a stab at SFO-DEL (7706 smi, barely shorter than EWR-BOM) and SFO-BOM (8406 smi, barely more than LAX-DXB).
 
thegman
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 8):
Well there is a very big employer in PHX....Tempe actually... that we are all forgetting....but alas doubt any of those folks pay for their air tickets.

And that is the exact employer in question, so no presence means no travel. Plus it isn't like US has employees going to these far-flung destinations regularly anyways. Intl outstations have usually 1 person that actually works for the airline, a station manager, the rest are contracted.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):
Has any airline tried SFO-India nonstop ? That half-hearted effort by 9W doesn't really count.

India yeilds are just so low. You have to have such a massive market (ala Toronto, New York, and Chicago) to really make it work. San Francisco could join that group, but its geography doesnt help it since the other cities can cater to connections as well.

However, the best solution to India seems to be coming from the Gulf carriers, not AI itself. They are especially useful in cities where the O&D to India is large, but the front cabins have to come from somewhere else (like Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, Boston, and Washington DC). San Francisco would be the only other city in the US that could really make a profit on a long haul directly to India.

Back to the topic, Im not sure if PHX could support a second flight to Europe. If US and AA do merge or US joins OneWorld, that would make it easy to funnel connections through PHX and perhaps BA would be daily and year round. As for Asia, if a 767 could reach NRT from PHX, then AA might be able to make that work. Otherwise a 787 would have to do the job. Even then, Im somewhat skeptical that a PHX-NRT flight would work. Im willing to be proven wrong on that.
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Tdan
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RE: Potential Long Haul From Phoenix

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41):
Like I stated, a buddy of mine working for NH has stated that once they begin expanding with the 787 they'll most likely codeshare with US on a flight to here. I've heard from my friend that this is rumored to be 'inevitable" which sounds to me like once the economy picks back up, we could be seeing more expansion in the nation's largest urban expansion.


I realize your buddy thinks NRTPHX is inevitable, but you'll see NH in DEN and LAS before PHX, which really eliminates much of the need for a nonstop to PHX without enormous growth in the local market (which is around 35 PDEW and the largest PHX-Asia O&D). Poor geography and a small local, long haul international market are unfortunately going against PHX. An independent US is still likely the best chance for a new route; however, I am skeptical as to if it will be a success.

[Edited 2012-04-18 09:08:37]
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