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enilria
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WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:07 pm

In the quarterly call minutes ago, Gary Kelly said in response to a question that there will be "radical changes to the AirTran network, not just in the past, but going forward. There will be ongoing radical changes in their network as we make it look like WN". Those are pretty dramatic comments. Since ATL and MCO are all that really remains of the FL network, what could that comment mean...

1) Elimination of the Air Tran hub scheduling at ATL? (Likely)
2) Downsizing of the MCO Air Tran network?
3) Further reductions in the size of the ATL network?

Any other ideas?
 
rj777
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:09 pm

Capitalizing on F9's drawdown in MKE and taking some more gates from them?
 
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enilria
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:13 pm

Another quote:
Kelly: "The 717 doesn't bring any additional value to Southwest"

Also, "there is an effort underway to see if we can retire those planes faster".

[Edited 2012-04-19 10:14:20]
 
AA737-823
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
"The 717 doesn't bring any additional value to Southwest"

From the comfort of my armchair, I wholeheartedly disagree!
Shame, in all seriousness- hopefully, they find a good buyer, be it AA, DL, or someone else.
 
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enilria
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
"radical changes to the AirTran network, not just in the past, but going forward. There will be ongoing radical changes in their network as we make it look like WN".

Here is more follow up from Kelly:

"It'll be a very different network. The hub-and-spoke network that they operate in Atlanta. We *won't* do that. We've already announced we are closing 15 destinations and we are redeploying that capacity...Also there is no guarantee that the existing international Air Tran destinations will make the transition to Southwest. When this is all done it will be a very different route network."

"We are very excited about Milwaukee. It is a great market. We think Milwaukee will have...at least 50 departures. is an opportunity for us."
 
atrude777
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:12 pm

Look for...

*WN to grab as many international authorities as they possibly can-MDW-CUN for example. HOU-XXX should their Intl operations be approved.

*Right size ATL Hub to make it profitable under WN's Business (An example is when WN announced the intent to purchase Frontier, it wasn't the expansion of DEN, but it was the addition of ATL that also got billing. Yet ATL was one gate. WN showed as much excitement for ATL through F9 as they do for Air Tran. I don't have a reason or discussion for it but..something to keep in mind.

*Try build up the "small" FL cities like CAK/DSM to match the WN Network

*I am "betting" but glad to be proved wrong that CLE will close within the next 5 years as WN may try to build up CAK. I know both can co-exist, but CLE dwindles, while CAK grows. WN was not shy about closing IAD and MIA on the FL side, they won't be shy about closing CLE should it become necessary.

*MCO--WN has slowly taken over much of the MCO-XXX (non ATL flying) routes when possible, maybe look to see more?

*MKE-I believe WN intends to add more to MKE. They did not redeploy the MKE-LGA slots (Are these Air 21 or does this only apply to DCA?) Instead WN took over LGA-MKE Mainline.

*Perhaps Red Eye flying? Who knows.

Everything we said about "WN will never do this" has been thrown out of the window. Any idea is as plausible as the next one. WN is not shy to try anything now.

Alex
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SANFan
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:50 pm

I've been waiting patiently (well, for me anyway) to see if/when SAN is going to see any ATL service from WN/FL and the chances seem to be getting slimmer with each passing month. I think there are a lot of other WN cities out west here in the same boat, such as PDX, SNA, ABQ, SLC, SAT, SMF, ELP, etc. These are all solid WN cities -- some certainly larger than others -- that haven't ever had, or, as in the case of SAN, once had FL service (to ATL) but haven't for a couple of years now, so I just wonder when, or if any of us will ever see service to Hartsfield-Jackson on WN, or FL, or whatever the appropriate name is now?

SAN never was a raging success for AirTran and was caught in the cut-back of ATL flights by FL, as well as the MKE-battle and after two years of summer-only service, was uncerimoniously dropped from their route map at the end of the summer of 2010. But SAN has been a large WN station (although shrinking lately but still with 90-100 daily flights and currently on their Top-Ten-Airports list), with healthy O&D passenger count to ATL (a pdew somewhere between 250-300) and lots of DL service in the market. (And IMHO, some competition for DL would be a very good thing!)

So with all that is happening at WN/FL, now and apparently in the near future, especially regarding ATL, I just wonder where these cities fit into the puzzle? Anyone have Mr. Kelly's phone number?  

bb
 
Flytravel
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):

*I am "betting" but glad to be proved wrong that CLE will close within the next 5 years as WN may try to build up CAK. I know both can co-exist, but CLE dwindles, while CAK grows. WN was not shy about closing IAD and MIA on the FL side, they won't be shy about closing CLE should it become necessary.

It would just seem to go against WN being a choice for business travel. WN wanted to please business travelers esp in markets like Chicago where there is already a lot of nonstops, but still competition. I'm guessing DSM was kept partly for the purpose of building the list of destinations out of Chicago. And short haul routes but over 3 hours drive would seem to fit fine.

By dropping CLE - If one from Chicago wants to travel to Cleveland, WN would be making that pax go to CAK and drive 1 hour into Cleveland. From the east coast, it's even more unpleasant to choose WN to connect in BWI/MDW and then land in CAK to reach Cleveland.

I could see the dual airport strategy to attract pax in Greater Cleveland, but WN isn't associating the two together atleast from the website.

As for MIA, it maybe a different case since they have a big hub/focus city at FLL, and want pax supporting the nonstops out of FLL. i.e. pax support XXX-FLL and not XXX-ATL/MCO/BWI-MIA, and similarly not keep SRQ so that pax support XXX-TPA and not XXX-ATL/MCO/BWI-SRQ. I'm guessing FL's IAD-ATL was dropped but DCA-ATL will stay, and anyways on IAD-ATL there was DL and UA flying the same route. IAD itself might stay in some form.
 
flyingcat
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:13 pm

I have to say with codeshare not currently possible they in a bit of a jam. FL is more networkcentric and needs all the connecting feed it can handle. WN has always been heavily focused on short to mid haul O&D traffic.

Couple this with the limitation on FL operating international and they are juggling chainsaws.
 
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:27 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*Try build up the "small" FL cities like CAK/DSM to match the WN Network

It boggles my mind that they are keeping DSM when they left other markets that have just as good of a case to keep WN.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
Everything we said about "WN will never do this" has been thrown out of the window. Any idea is as plausible as the next one. WN is not shy to try anything now.

That's not true at all. They still can't profitably serve smaller markets. I'll go ahead and say they never will unless they have a serious change in their union contracts. And that is something they're very shy about trying or doing. WN needs 7 or 8 flights a day to be able to serve a city. It's not a preference, it's a necessity in their eyes. Good luck throwing that out of a window, it's pretty heavy.
 
atrude777
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):
It boggles my mind that they are keeping DSM when they left other markets that have just as good of a case to keep WN.

Without seeing the financial books, we don't know how profitable or not each station would be under WN's business plan.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):

That's not true at all. They still can't profitably serve smaller markets.

Says Who? That has yet to be proven considering WN hasn't done "small markets" yet...they will find out soon as they integrate the stations between FL and WN.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):
serious change in their union contracts. And that is something they're very shy about trying or doing. WN needs 7 or 8 flights a day to be able to serve a city. It's not a preference, it's a necessity in their eyes. Good luck throwing that out of a window, it's pretty heavy.

Nothing needs to be changed. WN can out source any station that is under 7 flights a day. CRP for example could be out sourced right now. Out of good will WN has not yet.

WN would LIKE to see about 7-8 flights to get good productivity but it is NOT needed at all.

WN already right now is trying to change things in the productivity side especially in small stations and big stations...

Alex
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*I am "betting" but glad to be proved wrong that CLE will close within the next 5 years as WN may try to build up CAK. I know both can co-exist, but CLE dwindles, while CAK grows. WN was not shy about closing IAD and MIA on the FL side, they won't be shy about closing CLE should it become necessary.

But WN flies to IAD?
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
atrude777
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 11):
But WN flies to IAD?

As I said...on the Air Tran (FL Side)

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
IAD and MIA on the FL side,

Alex
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mli717fan
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
n the quarterly call minutes ago, Gary Kelly said in response to a question that there will be "radical changes to the AirTran network, not just in the past, but going forward. There will be ongoing radical changes in their network as we make it look like WN". Those are pretty dramatic comments. Since ATL and MCO are all that really remains of the FL network, what could that comment mean...

I was initially optimistic about the merger, but as it goes on, it disappoints me more and more. FL may have stagnated somewhat, but they were still a healthy, viable airline. It's sad to see WN chuck FL's unique features (Small/Mid-sized markets, 717s, Business Class on every aircraft). I agree, this is probably the end of the road for the FL hubs. They'll still be large spokes on the WN route map, but they certainly won't be the same.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):
It boggles my mind that they are keeping DSM when they left other markets that have just as good of a case to keep WN.

I see what you mean, but I know DSM has the catchment area to support WN service. WN can see where people live who buy tickets on their airline from OMA and MCI, they must be confident they can retain those customers and add more if they being flying from DSM.

That said, DSM has a really bad history of supporting their FL service:
-AirTran pulled out of DSM around the time they were purchased by ValueJet (I remember flying MLI-DSM-MCO-MLI once.)
-AirTran couldn't make an MCO flight work just a few years ago
-AirTran's loads to MKE have been absolute garbage.

It's pretty safe to assume that with loads under 50%, FL hasn't made a dime in the DSM market. I'd say that DSM might not deserve to be one of the FL stations that WN kept around, but obviously WN is keeping them for a reason.

Does anyone think we will see additional station closures? I know they announced that all of the non-closing stations will be transitioned to WN, BUT they've said a lot of other things that didn't come to fruition either.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Since ATL and MCO are all that really remains of the FL network, what could that comment mean...

Is this true. Doesnt FL still to P2P to FLL and TPA?
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
Kelly: "The 717 doesn't bring any additional value to Southwest"

Why not open Alaska and use the 717 between Alaska and a left coast location.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
"We are very excited about Milwaukee. It is a great market. We think Milwaukee will have...at least 50 departures. is an opportunity for us."

This is good to hear, and a bit of a relief considering how much F9 has cut recently. Before the merger I think that FL's MKE operation topped out at about 50 flight per day. Does anyone know how many total flights WN/FL will have from MKE come this fall and if there will be any overlap left?

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*MKE-I believe WN intends to add more to MKE. They did not redeploy the MKE-LGA slots (Are these Air 21 or does this only apply to DCA?) Instead WN took over LGA-MKE Mainline.

As of now I think that only 3/5 MKE-LGA flights are changing to WN. Anyone think they might swap out 1 or 2 of the LGA flights with EWR? It'll be interesting to see if they add anything because the operation has been status-quo for quite a while now - not much in terms of additions. Maybe BNA or HOU?
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
But SAN has been a large WN station (although shrinking lately but still with 90-100 daily flights and currently on their Top-Ten-Airports list),


SAN is shrinking ??? I've seen WN check-in lines so long they were blocking the UA TSA vestibule.

Shrinking must have suddenly been revised to mean "more passengers than *ever.*"
 
globalflyer
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:14 pm

Well I just hate this. I was so excited about this merger and for ATL but it has not gone well. FL had a great operation and kept DL in check. Now DL is likely kicking back and enjoying the ride. With WN in ATL they (DL) will be more successful against WN than FL.
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bjorn14
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:27 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 15):
Why not open Alaska and use the 717 between Alaska and a left coast location.

Because the only viable WN station would be ANC and that is 2016nm to OAK and the 717 doesn't have the legs. I don't see them stopping in SEA.
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LoneStarMike
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):
I've been waiting patiently (well, for me anyway) to see if/when SAN is going to see any ATL service from WN/FL and the chances seem to be getting slimmer with each passing month. I think there are a lot of other WN cities out west here in the same boat, such as PDX, SNA, ABQ, SLC, SAT, SMF, ELP, etc

Minor correction: FL serves SAT-ATL and has for a few years now. (I believe the current service is 3 times daily)

LoneStarMike
 
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 7):
As for MIA, it maybe a different case since they have a big hub/focus city at FLL, and want pax supporting the nonstops out of FLL. i.e. pax support XXX-FLL and not XXX-ATL/MCO/BWI-MIA, and similarly not keep SRQ so that pax support XXX-TPA and not XXX-ATL/MCO/BWI-SRQ. I'm guessing FL's IAD-ATL was dropped but DCA-ATL will stay, and anyways on IAD-ATL there was DL and UA flying the same route. IAD itself might stay in some form.

MIA and WN were pretty close to a deal. WN wanted in at MIA; but MIA refused to go as low as WN wanted on usage fees, so WN balked. If MIA wants WN/B6/etc., it needs to create a budget terminal.
a.
 
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knope2001
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 16):
Quoting enilria (Reply 4):"We are very excited about Milwaukee. It is a great market. We think Milwaukee will have...at least 50 departures. is an opportunity for us."
This is good to hear, and a bit of a relief considering how much F9 has cut recently. Before the merger I think that FL's MKE operation topped out at about 50 flight per day. Does anyone know how many total flights WN/FL will have from MKE come this fall and if there will be any overlap left?

I believe WN FL will be exactly 50 this fall. I would guess that's where his number is coming from.
IIRC they are at a combined 58 flights at the summer peak.

As far as overlap, come fall from MKE:

LGA 2x WN and 3x FL
BWI 3x WN and 1x FL
MCO 1x WN and 2x FL

At least for fall, SEA, LAX, LAS, PHX and DEN are 100% WN. TPA and FLL are 100% FL. Who knows what the winter schedule will bring.


I think the only overlap markets are LGA, BWI and MCO. MKE-BWI is 3x WN and 1x FL. MKE-LGA is 2x WN and 3x FL.
 
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):
SAN is shrinking ??? I've seen WN check-in lines so long they were blocking the UA TSA vestibule.

Shrinking must have suddenly been revised to mean "more passengers than *ever.*"

Yes, WN has been decreasing the number of flights at SAN. We were up over 100 a few years ago and we now bounce around from the high 80s to low 90s.

Terminal 1 at SAN is just a horrible facility. It just cannot handle the number of passengers. And the way in which WN schedules their flights these days, departures will be grouped together all leaving just a few minutes apart so with the spikes in departure activity you see rush hours where everyone shows up at once.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
grain
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 10):
Nothing needs to be changed. WN can out source any station that is under 7 flights a day. CRP for example could be out sourced right now. Out of good will WN has not yet.

Not to nit pick, but the number is 12 flights, and they cant outsource a station that was being serviced before the ratification of the latest contract.
 
flyguy1
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:48 am

I was thinking about this recently, would WN ever consider JFK? Under normal circumstances, or likely if AA merges, thus freeing slots?
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
atrude777
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting grain (Reply 24):

Not to nit pick, but the number is 12 flights, and they cant outsource a station that was being serviced before the ratification of the latest contract.

Ahh that has changed then since I left WN. Thanks for that update!

Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 25):
would WN ever consider JFK? Under normal circumstances, or likely if AA merges, thus freeing slots?

Absolutely, they would consider it, and if they see a way to make JFK work to their liking it is possible! Just depends on the route structure and how JFK might be viewed to Southwest.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
joeman
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
they won't be shy about closing CLE should it become necessary.

So the a.netter consensus is that CLE will eventually be served by 4 domestic carriers with flights to only their hub cities...nice
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:47 am

What value was FL to WN?? All they seem to be doing is getting rid of what they had (routes, aircraft etc.) and following on with their own strategy.

Wouldn't it have been easier just to expand on their own without taking over FL, and the added complexity it brings?
 
atrude777
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:52 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 28):
What value was FL to WN?? All they seem to be doing is getting rid of what they had (routes, aircraft etc.) and following on with their own strategy.

Wouldn't it have been easier just to expand on their own without taking over FL, and the added complexity it brings?

LGA/DCA Slots
Access to ATL
International Capability

WN could not grow quickly enough in the time span they wanted to be able to do this. In addition to growing to the size they want, they need the planes and employees from Air Tran to help them through it, the people of Air Tran is very much an asset to Southwest Airlines.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
catiii
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting MLI717fan (Reply 13):
I was initially optimistic about the merger, but as it goes on, it disappoints me more and more. FL may have stagnated somewhat, but they were still a healthy, viable airline.

Totally agree. It's almost like instead of viewing the ATL hub and FL network as synergies, the WN view is that they bought a bunch of airplanes to increase capacity and with that came some gates at ATL. Hard to see what it is they're ultimately going to do.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
MIA and WN were pretty close to a deal. WN wanted in at MIA; but MIA refused to go as low as WN wanted on usage fees, so WN balked. If MIA wants WN/B6/etc., it needs to create a budget terminal.

I'm still hoping we WN/FL and Metro Dade (operating authority of MIA) will have a meeting of the minds and make a deal. WN
service in MIA makes sense as there is a large demand/market. Though FLL is only a 45 minute drive (traffic permitting) the MIA/FLL area is extremely spread out. And MIA is the gateway to Latin America. Also with AA's issues the time is ripe for WN to enter the MIA market.
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jporterfi
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:47 am

I just wish that WN would figure out a way to codeshare with FL while they continue the process of repainting planes, and then once they repaint enough planes, start switching things over to FL. ATL service is ridiculous currently because WN and FL are operating as two separate airlines, and there aren't really enough WN flights yet to justify connecting people through ATL. Once they figure the codeshare out, this issue becomes much easier to manage, and then they can just keep on repainting planes until everything is fully integrated.
 
SANFan
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 17):
SAN is shrinking ??? I've seen WN check-in lines so long they were blocking the UA TSA vestibule.
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):
Yes, WN has been decreasing the number of flights at SAN. We were up over 100 a few years ago and we now bounce around from the high 80s to low 90s.

Terminal 1 at SAN is just a horrible facility. It just cannot handle the number of passengers. And the way in which WN schedules their flights these days, departures will be grouped together all leaving just a few minutes apart so with the spikes in departure activity you see rush hours where everyone shows up at once.

   In addition to the general decrease in flights in the last few years, WN's monthly pax counts have decreased EVERY month between July 2011 and January 2012, some months as llittle as .3%, but October 2011 seeing just under a 6% declline in pax carried y-o-y! (These figures are available at SDIA's monthly Air Traffic Reports found at SAN.org.) Overall traffic at SAN saw slight decreases during only 3 of those 7 months so at least for recent months, WN has been seeing silding numbers while the airport overall has stayed pretty level. Nothing huge but, along with a few other unpleasant signs, rather a disturbing trend here for SAN's largest carrier -- still carrying about 38% of the pax in and out of town.

(BTW, the airport is getting ready to address the T1 issue, just approving funding for studyiing and planning for the redevelopment of T1, the CT, and all that new empty land in the southeast part of Lindbergh Field.)

bb
 
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enilria
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:19 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 6):

I've been waiting patiently (well, for me anyway) to see if/when SAN is going to see any ATL service from WN/FL and the chances seem to be getting slimmer with each passing month. I think there are a lot of other WN cities out west here in the same boat, such as PDX, SNA, ABQ, SLC, SAT, SMF, ELP, etc. These are all solid WN cities -- some certainly larger than others -- that haven't ever had, or, as in the case of SAN, once had FL service (to ATL) but haven't for a couple of years now, so I just wonder when, or if any of us will ever see service to Hartsfield-Jackson on WN, or FL, or whatever the appropriate name is now?

I don't think FL likes long-haul much these days AND I'm not sure without a traditional hub you can make those markets work on basically local only and a few connections. DL has too many flights in most of them.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*Right size ATL Hub to make it profitable under WN's Business

Unfortunately, I agree.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*I am "betting" but glad to be proved wrong that CLE will close within the next 5 years

I doubt that. I think the opposite will happen if/when UA shuts the CLE hub. If that does not happen, WN will grow in CAK and hedge their bet with CLE.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*MKE-I believe WN intends to add more to MKE.

I doubt it. Kelly said he sees it as an "AUS or SAT type city in the WN network". Well-served, but not a connect point.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*MCO--WN has slowly taken over much of the MCO-XXX

I'm not aware of much that has transitioned except maybe some BWI.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
*Perhaps Red Eye flying? Who knows.

My understanding is that they had the opportunity to fix that recently in their pilot contract, but did not. So, it will remain the way it is. No red-eyes.

Quoting flyingcaT (Reply 8):

I have to say with codeshare not currently possible they in a bit of a jam. FL is more networkcentric and needs all the connecting feed it can handle. WN has always been heavily focused on short to mid haul O&D traffic.

Couple this with the limitation on FL operating international and they are juggling chainsaws.

True. They think they can flash the WN brand on to FL, eliminate the "hub" structure, lower cost, and leave revenue unchanged. So far, they haven't. They refused to report a YOY net earnings comparison for the FL unit. The analysts bugged them on it, but they made excuses.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 10):
Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):
It boggles my mind that they are keeping DSM when they left other markets that have just as good of a case to keep WN.

Without seeing the financial books, we don't know how profitable or not each station would be under WN's business plan.

We know it went from OO CRJs to mainline and had load factors in the 20s. I think it is safe to say that at those loads it was disastrous.

Quoting MLI717fan (Reply 13):
I was initially optimistic about the merger, but as it goes on, it disappoints me more and more.

I was never optimistic. They bought them to eliminate a competitor and get into ATL. Nothing else.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
Is this true. Doesnt FL still to P2P to FLL and TPA?

Yes, but MCO is much bigger. It's also the former HQ of the company. They also had P2P to RSW and SRQ, and even some PBI.

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 22):
LGA 2x WN and 3x FL
BWI 3x WN and 1x FL
MCO 1x WN and 2x FL

At least for fall, SEA, LAX, LAS, PHX and DEN are 100% WN. TPA and FLL are 100% FL. Who knows what the winter schedule will bring.

The lack of a code share and that splintered mess should reduce performance there a lot.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 28):

What value was FL to WN?? All they seem to be doing is getting rid of what they had (routes, aircraft etc.) and following on with their own strategy.

Their strategy is to rub pixie dust over the mess and hope it sprouts a beanstalk to the clouds. I guess in the history of mergers this one is not out of step. AA bought WA Transworld Airlines (USA)">TW and kept basically nothing. Reno Air and Air Cal, same deal. US bought PS and liquidated it. DL bought WA and only kept SLC. WN bought Morris and mostly liquidated it.

I guess it's just the same thing again. I just had higher hopes this time.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 29):
LGA/DCA Slots
Access to ATL
International Capability

LOL. They could have gotten into ATL, just not in as big a way. The network they are running now under the WN code in ATL would have been possible. The int'l capability one is kind of a joke as they are moving mountains to maintain it and just said that they may not keep the existing AirTran int'l cities. It would have been far easier to just fix their own AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT issues and add CUN with their own planes. The slots were a value, but they overpaid.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 32):
I just wish that WN would figure out a way to codeshare with FL while they continue the process of repainting planes, and then once they repaint enough planes, start switching things over to FL. ATL service is ridiculous currently because WN and FL are operating as two separate airlines, and there aren't really enough WN flights yet to justify connecting people through ATL. Once they figure the codeshare out, this issue becomes much easier to manage, and then they can just keep on repainting planes until everything is fully integrated.

Exactly. Kelly wouldn't even put a date on the code share. He said "there is no date I'm confident of...some time next year".
 
point2point
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 28):
Wouldn't it have been easier just to expand on their own without taking over FL, and the added complexity it brings?

Without the "merger" WN would not have been able to knock out a lot of seats from the marketplace.


 
 
asteriskceo
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:27 pm

Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but can WN employees non-rev on FL the same way they do on their own metal, yet?
 
atrude777
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 36):
Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but can WN employees non-rev on FL the same way they do on their own metal, yet?

WN Employees may non rev on FL Birds for free, unlimited anytime, and they are boarded by seniority on FL Metal (going behind FL Employees but above anyone else)

FL Employees may fly WN Free, unlimited, and they board by time of check in (going behind WN Employees but above everyone else)

*the quotes in (-) might need correction...

FL Employees may NOT ride the Physical Cabin Jumpseat (Called riding 4th) until they have become WN Employees in terms of getting a WN ID and Employee Number.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
USAIRWAYS321
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 5):
Everything we said about "WN will never do this" has been thrown out of the window. Any idea is as plausible as the next one. WN is not shy to try anything now.

Except that they won't try to operate anything other than 737s, or sustain an ATL hub...
 
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United_fan
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 14):
Doesnt FL still to P2P to FLL and TPA?

They offer ROC-TPA,MCO and RSW n/s. On 717's
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
ikramerica
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:14 pm

WN+FL reminds me a lot of when AA took over AirCal, then RenoAir. "Integrate" became "dismantle" and eventually, little if any of the route network remained.

WN took out a competitor with some focus cities/hubs they wanted to integrate, but with a LOT of routes they never planned on keeping. FL could make 1 or 2 flights a day work to a city, WN doesn't work that way. So what FL offered to smaller communities was wiped out as soon as WN said they wanted to buy FL.

Hopefully other airlines will enter and pick up the pieces.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
billreid
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 35):
Without the "merger" WN would not have been able to knock out a lot of seats from the marketplace.

Absolutely correct.
If I were the DOJ, I would be considering a multi-billion dollar suit against WN for filing a growth merger approval document. Either WN is absolutely incompentent or a pack of liers. I sure hope it is the latter of the two. They bought FL to shut it down after peeling off a few assets that have value. It was never about growth.

Just as seen by the Houston City council this weak, the shine is off WN.
Welcome to the downward spiral staircase!

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
"It'll be a very different network. The hub-and-spoke network that they operate in Atlanta. We *won't* do that. We've already announced we are closing 15 destinations and we are redeploying that capacity...Also there is no guarantee that the existing international Air Tran destinations will make the transition to Southwest. When this is all done it will be a very different route network."

So are the International destinations being deserted as well?
If so then this is so so so disappointing.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
aviationbuff08
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting globalflyer (Reply 18):
Well I just hate this. I was so excited about this merger and for ATL but it has not gone well. FL had a great operation and kept DL in check. Now DL is likely kicking back and enjoying the ride. With WN in ATL they (DL) will be more successful against WN than FL.



I agree with you. All the ATL passengers were so interested in Lower fares, the joke is on you as fares have done nothing but go up in ATL since WN took over FL and started their own limited service. Just wait until WN starts ripping apart FL HUB network. Your not going to make money being an O & D carrier in ATL against DL. WN wasn't successful against DL in SLC, ATL will not be any easier.

I think this merger/ acquisition has put WN going down the path of Eastern, TWA, and Pan Am. Time will tell.
 
ikramerica
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 41):
Absolutely correct.
If I were the DOJ, I would be considering a multi-billion dollar suit against WN for filing a growth merger approval document. Either WN is absolutely incompentent or a pack of liers. I sure hope it is the latter of the two. They bought FL to shut it down after peeling off a few assets that have value. It was never about growth.

Yep. Wasn't aware they sold the merger as "growth" to the anti-trust watchdogs. WN never planned on growing with FL, but I am surprised just how much they plan on shrinking FL's routes.

And in terms of anti-trust, the result may be DL increasing flying in the South, which means WN took out a DL competitor and increased DL's dominance. We see what happens when competition leaves a southern market. When CO pulled out of SRQ, DL increased prices dramatically.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting aviationbuff08 (Reply 42):
Your not going to make money being an O & D carrier in ATL against DL.

How do you know that? Do you doubt that WN makes money against AA/UA in Chicago, UA in Houston, AA in Dallas, or AA/UA/sometimes DL in Los Angeles?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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enilria
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 40):
So what FL offered to smaller communities was wiped out as soon as WN said they wanted to buy FL.

I've said since day one that this merger was going to be the most damaging for competition in this country. The legacies don't really battle on price very often. If you take a city with three legacies and make it two, the prices were high before and high afterward. Pricing is more set by how much the airline can extract before the market dries up and blows away.

AirTran and, to a gradually lessening extent, WN have always been in the business of creating demand by lowering prices. So, removing one of them from so many markets is very damaging to competition. Additionally, WN has fundamentally higher prices than FL and we are already seeing that post-merger in FL pricing.

FL was a disruptive force in industry pricing (translation=cheap) and they were eliminated for it. Of course, FL wanted to charge more, but they couldn't because that was their lot in life...to be a bottom feeder. Now there are no bottom feeders except maybe Spirit. The bottom feeders tend to influence legacy pricing, though, and you knock one out at the risk of huge price jumps.

Quoting billreid (Reply 41):
So are the International destinations being deserted as well?

I'm glad you asked that. My guess is that without a hub and spoke structure, most of the existing AirTran international stations flown primarily from Atlanta will not work. The BWI markets are probably also under threat. WN cares mostly about Mexico as evidence by the new routes they have added.

I just think it is comical that they said that they bought FL for the int'l capability, but have determined the AirTran technology is useless to them (replaced by Amadeus) and the actual destinations where FL has some equity are probably going to be dropped.

The other thing to take from this is this VERY IMPORTANT POINT. If they are basically saying now that some of the AirTran international destinations won't be transitioned after saying just a few months ago that *ALL* remaining AirTran stations will be transitioned, how much hope do we have for the remaining unique FL domestic stations?
 
atrude777
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting billreid (Reply 41):
Absolutely correct.
If I were the DOJ, I would be considering a multi-billion dollar suit against WN for filing a growth merger approval document.

Wrong. Just...wrong.

You're hatred of WN just spews through that you don't look back and realize what you're saying has to be reflected on other carriers too.

By your statement AA should have been sued by DOJ for closure of STL, (they lied)
DL should be sued for withdrawing out of some small markets, EAS cities, and the downwind of the MEM hub as enilria keeps mentioning..(they lied)
US should be sued as well for their withdrawl in markets..closure of PIT (though I'll grant you that was pre merger of HP/US)

Please provide proof of such document, this would be public if what you're saying is true, and WN IS growing in other markets, see the new International cities being announced? See some of the new routes being added? Yes, WN has cut FL stations and routes, just like WN has cut WN routes too.

You are acting like all WN is doing is cutting and retrenching, but ignoring the new cities WN/FL has announced since and other growth areas.

Quoting billreid (Reply 41):

So are the International destinations being deserted as well?

No, not confirmed, all WN has done is add international cities, not one was cut. What the quote meant was there may be a change to the international destinations. Please do NOT twist it to make it your way of WN's wrong doing.

Quoting enilria (Reply 34):

I'm not aware of much that has transitioned except maybe some BWI.

I shouldn't say take over, but WN has taken over some cities (STL-MCO) that was FL, now all WN, and has filled in some MCO-XXX flying.

There is still quite a few routes left of Air Tran outside of Florida that has still remained (I did not include MCO or ATL routes since the point was to show Florida for P2P )

The P2P flying Air Tran does that does not involve MCO or ATL is..
FLL-MKE/PIT/SJU/CAK/BWI
RSW-CAK/BOS/BUF/MDW/FNT/GRR/IND/MKE/PIT/DCA/
TPA-CAK/CMH/DAY/FNT/GRR/IND/EYW/MKE/SJU/PIT/ROC/BWI
PBI-BWI

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
BobbyPSP
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:04 pm

My gut says WN/FL will still have a huge presence at ATL. I understand how the current FL model of "hubbing" is critical to its success until final integration. WN will probably "de-bank" Atlanta to even out operations through the day with a modest reduction in frequencies.

OTOH... I am shocked that things like the code share was not properly vetted
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:42 pm

DL pretty much did a textbook example of how to defend a hub against WN at SLC by constant price matching and Commitment but several things worked in their favor.

WN is already so large in ATL, they chose den for a larger operation, SLC didn't have enough gates for a massive operation on den scale, people are loyal to delta in SLC and this was a time when miles were more valuable and Delta was relentless on price matching, and there was no free luggage difference then so wn couldn't offer as much as it tried to steal delta customers. Basically wn couldn't offer enough advantages to make people leave delta when they were extremely aggressive price matching. Times have changed wn now offers no change fees, two free pieces of luggage and miles that are much easier to redeem.

Delta will surely be fine ATL is so large but wn will put pricing pressure on delta to price match post merger and advertising assault, free luggage and no change fee is gonna be the marketing push post full merger in ATL and will attract families. Delta is not gonna run wn out of town and they will attract delta customers but they will coexist and ATL is a big enough market for both but there will be some new pressures on both. WN isn't gonna steal domestic o & d like they denver scale so quick but delta isn't gonna just have just a walk interest park and be ableover power them. Whenever its fully merged I bet we see a massive wn media assault on the market. DL learned some things at SLC but wn has learned what has worked at denver to steal customers
 
alexinwa
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RE: WN: More Radical Changes Coming To FL Routes

Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 9):
That's not true at all. They still can't profitably serve smaller markets. I'll go ahead and say they never will unless they have a serious change in their union contracts. And that is something they're very shy about trying or doing. WN needs 7 or 8 flights a day to be able to serve a city. It's not a preference, it's a necessity in their eyes. Good luck throwing that out of a window, it's pretty heavy.

What? Sorry but the ONLY market that WN has that number of dailies in SEA is to OAK, they seem to be doing just fine up here. With a number of once or twice daily flights.
You mad Bro???