southwest737500
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:07 pm

Hey guys,

Topics I would like to talk about is

The 767 retirement plans, how much longer they will be around
How many A330 is HA expecting this year and where will they be placed
Lastly, will HA try to get some more 717

[Edited 2012-04-21 15:44:14]
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PHX787
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:34 pm

Don't quote me on this but I believe 3 or 4 A330s are due in. Maybe a lot more, maybe less. That's what I've heard so far though from the rampers at PHX
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Hawaiian763
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting southwest737500 (Thread starter):
Lastly, will HA try to get some more 717

You would think with such a limited market that HA already has enough 717's in their fleet already, is there still a need for them to bring more 717's in?
 
CapEd388
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:50 am

What I have been wondering lately, is what they are going to replace their B717s with. I know that they 717s are not too old, but within the next 5-10 years, they might start to phase them out.

What would they replace them with? A320new? B737MAX or CSeries?
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ZKOJH
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:51 am

Does HA have a plan on what to replace the 717's with yet? and when is there exit date?
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southwest737500
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:09 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 4):

I don't thnk there even ready to think about that
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southwest737500
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):

I would say Cseries but the 717 will be around for another decade
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southwest737500
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:11 am

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 2):

Not exactly, looking at the census the population is steadily growing, I'm not saying they should get 10 more I'm just saying they could get 2 more
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jpetekyxmd80
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:19 am

Well, they've recently taken 3 more 717, bringing them up to 18. I could see 20 eventually, but not too much more than that. Of course they can only serve 5 airports with them, so the choices are very limited. The 3 extras will help with their little Maui build up and additional frequencies, which can largely be attributed to connections to their new Asia flying. At the same time, airlines like Alaska have been aggressive in the outer islands, minimizing increased need for partner connectivity.

If their international growth continues at this rate, I wonder if we'd ever see the 767 be used inter island at peak times. Could potentially make some sense, they've done it before. Maybe they would go that route if there is a significant increase in demand again.
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777fan
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HA: 767 retirement, A330 deliveries, more 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 2):

You would think with such a limited market that HA already has enough 717's in their fleet already, is there still a need for them to bring more 717's in?
Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):
What I have been wondering lately, is what they are going to replace their B717s with. I know that they 717s are not too old, but within the next 5-10 years, they might start to phase them out.

What would they replace them with? A320new? B737MAX or CSeries?

This has been the topic of much discussion on a.net for a few years now but the conclusion is that at present, there is not a suitable replacement (either in person, or on the books) for the 717, in terms of RASM, CASM, and capability, both in terms of capacity, and also the ability to take a beating on HA's short-hop interisland routes.

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Bluewave 707
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:27 am

The 763s were used on HNL-OGG runs after Aloha went out of business. The leased 763s will be returned upon expiration of those leases. How long will they keep the purchased ones? That remains to be seen, but I suspect the bought ones will be sold off once the A350-800s come on line.

I don't think there will be any more 712s added to the HAL fleet. As far as a replacement goes, it may be far off. considering HAL owns 15 of the 18 712s. They'll want to get a high return on investment. Plus HAL has 85% of the inter-island market.

One factor would be how engines will handle short turn times. Aloha had issues with not enough cool down times on the CFM56s that were on their 737-300s and 737-400s. HAL will have a lot of options when it comes to a 712 replacement.
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:35 am

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):

What I have been wondering lately, is what they are going to replace their B717s with. I know that they 717s are not too old, but within the next 5-10 years, they might start to phase them out.

Either EJets or CSeries I would say
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

When would we expect to witness the A332 fleet down under...?

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Polot
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 12):
When would we expect to witness the A332 fleet down under...?

In two days, April 24th.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 10):
Aloha had issues with not enough cool down times on the CFM56s that were on their 737-300s and 737-400s.

Where'd you get that info from? Aloha never had B737-3/4 in their feet. Only 200s, 700s and a 800 for a short time.
 
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 14):
Where'd you get that info from? Aloha never had B737-3/4 in their feet. Only 200s, 700s and a 800 for a short time



They most certainly did fly both types! I know they flew at least 2 leased -300s at various times in the late 80s and early 90s. Two factory new -400s were delivered in 1992 and sold off in 1996. Source: ("50 years of Aloha" by Bill Wood and rzjets.net)

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Polot
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 15):
They most certainly did fly both types! I know they flew at least 2 leased -300s at various times in the late 80s and early 90s. Two factory new -400s were delivered in 1992 and sold off in 1996. Source: ("50 years of Aloha" by Bill Wood and rzjets.net)

There is also a picture of each type on this site:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brian Peters
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joe G. Walker



[Edited 2012-04-22 07:55:06]
 
boeing773er
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:57 pm

I don't think HA will try to take on more 717's, I think they have enough for inter-island hopping for now.

I think the 767's stil have a lot of life in them, IIRC HA just added winglets to their fleet of 767s; but I may be wrong.

IIRC HA just ordered about 5 more A330s, not sure if any of these were delivered yet.
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southwest737500
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 13):

Do you have any idea where that new A330 will be flying to
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 15):
They most certainly did fly both types! I know they flew at least 2 leased -300s at various times in the late 80s and early 90s. Two factory new -400s were delivered in 1992 and sold off in 1996. Source: ("50 years of Aloha" by Bill Wood and rzjets.net)

I stand corrected. I had a look and couldn't fin anything in Aloha's history, granted Wikipedia isn't always accurate. Thanks guys.
 
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 18):

I believe they fly them to LAX, LAS, and HND.
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southwest737500
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 20):

Ik now that, btw soon JFK

I'm saying where are the brand new A330 going
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Polot
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 21):
I'm saying where are the brand new A330 going

I have no clue specifically. What I was saying earlier is that HA is putting the A330 on their HNL-SYD flight in 2 days. Now whether that is because they just got a new A330 enabling it or by shuffling their current fleet around I don't know.
 
HALFA
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:04 pm

HA's A330's currently fly daily from HNL to HND, KIX, SFO, LAX (flights 10 and 2) and LAS (flights 18 and 8).

Daily A330 service to SYD commences on 4/24. Daily A330 service to JFK commences on 6/4.

I believe that the next city to see the A330 will be SAN.

Aloha,
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:22 pm

Why is there this assumption that the 717 is getting old and should be retired from Hawaiian's fleet pretty soon?

Didn't they fly DC-9s right up until the 717s were delivered? Aloha was still flying 737-200s until the end. I believe both of those fleets were more than twice as old as the 717s when they were finally retired.
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KLAXAirport
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:49 pm

Recently on my HA trip the FO and Capt. said that HA will be receiving 2-3 more A330's this year.

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southwest737500
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:07 pm

Quoting homsaR (Reply 24):

I agree, they still have plenty of leg in them, there not a bad plane
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting homsaR (Reply 24):
Why is there this assumption that the 717 is getting old and should be retired from Hawaiian's fleet pretty soon?

Didn't they fly DC-9s right up until the 717s were delivered? Aloha was still flying 737-200s until the end. I believe both of those fleets were more than twice as old as the 717s when they were finally retired.

Hawaiian flew their DC9's for over 30 years, so to say they are going to replace the 717's soon is probably just wishful thinking. They still have a ton of life left in them, and considering the lack of demand for used 717's, it wouldn't make economic sense to try and sell them. I think any talk of replacement is just people who would like to see a new fleet type at the airline. My guess is that Hawaiian will fly the 717's until the wheels fall off or they become an economic drain for the airline.
 
BUGYUL
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:35 pm

More new 717 out of question,no longer in production.
 
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting msp747 (Reply 27):
Hawaiian flew their DC9's for over 30 years, so to say they are going to replace the 717's soon is probably just wishful thinking. They still have a ton of life left in them, and considering the lack of demand for used 717's, it wouldn't make economic sense to try and sell them. I think any talk of replacement is just people who would like to see a new fleet type at the airline. My guess is that Hawaiian will fly the 717's until the wheels fall off or they become an economic drain for the airline.
Quoting BUGYUL (Reply 28):

More new 717 out of question,no longer in production.

The DC-9 was or still is one rugged aircraft. It uses butt joints rather than lap joints to bond or merge together the fuselage skin panels. For one, it eliminates cracking around rivet heads. One of the DC-9 larger faults is that the aft pressure bulkhead where the rear tail door is located is subject to failure. The FAA limited the DC-9 to 100,000 cycle, unless a required after pressure bulkhead repair was completed. Northwest completed several, but decided it was not worth the cost and effort.

No, there are no 717s being built. However the 717 will be around for a long time and airlines will continue to buy and sell it. The 717 is a very rugged aircraft , like the DC-9 it is, and will fly for a very long period of time.   
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting HALFA (Reply 23):
LAX (flights 10 and 2)

I also believe that FL# 9 is also A330 daily.

[Edited 2012-04-22 15:34:27]
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IMissPiedmont
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:39 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 8):
Of course they can only serve 5 airports with them

 
There are only 5 airports that can handle a 717 in Hawaii? I think there are 5 that get 767s from UPS.
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):
I know that they 717s are not too old, but within the next 5-10 years, they might start to phase them out.

Based on what?

Quoting 777fan (Reply 9):
This has been the topic of much discussion on a.net for a few years now but the conclusion is that at present, there is not a suitable replacement (either in person, or on the books) for the 717

Whether or not there is a suitable replacement, one is certainly not needed.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 24):
Why is there this assumption that the 717 is getting old and should be retired from Hawaiian's fleet pretty soon?

Because msp747 [below] has hit the nail on the head...

Quoting msp747 (Reply 27):
I think any talk of replacement is just people who would like to see a new fleet type at the airline.

Correct, and nothing more.

Quoting BUGYUL (Reply 28):
More new 717 out of question,no longer in production.

We know that. Do you really think none will be available on the secondary market?

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 29):
No, there are no 717s being built. However the 717 will be around for a long time and airlines will continue to buy and sell it. The 717 is a very rugged aircraft , like the DC-9 it is, and will fly for a very long period of time.

  
 
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lightsaber
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:22 am

I suspect that HA is buying 717s cheap enough for 4 to 7 year duty. While purchased, they can be almost treated as a short term lease due to the low purchase price.

I'm curious as to the lease expiration timeline on the GE powered 767s. Any links? HA made comments that the purchased Pratt powered 767 fleet was economical due to the existing GE fleet. I suspect the Pratt fleet would be retired within 2 years of the last lease expiration, if not sooner.

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 3):
What would they replace them with? A320new? B737MAX or CSeries?

Most likely the C-series or E-jets. HA will not benefit much from next generation engines due to their amazingly short missions.

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 7):
I'm not saying they should get 10 more I'm just saying they could get 2 more

I would agree. However I could see the total a few higher... It all depends on the time frame HA is considering keeping the 717.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 24):
Why is there this assumption that the 717 is getting old and should be retired from Hawaiian's fleet pretty soon?

The issue is the improvement in other narrowbody engines. The CF34 should only need an overhaul every 20k cycles versus every 7k for the BMR715. Right now the 717s are in good shape, but they have not been certified for 100k cycles as were the DC-9s. IIRC, 60k cycles for each 717 which is 15 years in HA service.

Note: From all accounts, the 717 could have its cycle life extended. However, there are simply too few in service for Boeing to justify the ~$200 million testing bill to extend the 717 life. There would be no return on investment. Just as there is no ROI for Rolls Royce to create PIP to extend the engine cycle life or reduce its fuel burn. RR could double the engine cycle life and reduce fuel burn 3%, but there needs to be another 200 or so engines in the fleet to pay for the PIP R&D.

The 717 is a great airframe that is capable of as long a life as the DC-9, but it isn't certified. That makes owning the 'fleet leading example' pricey.

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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:49 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
I'm curious as to the lease expiration timeline on the GE powered 767s. Any links? HA made comments that the purchased Pratt powered 767 fleet was economical due to the existing GE fleet. I suspect the Pratt fleet would be retired within 2 years of the last lease expiration, if not sooner.

The only GE powered 767's that HA has are the 4 older ex-DL ships (N594HA, N596-598HA...formerly N116-119DL). These aircraft are not leased but were purchased outright from the lessors after DL parked them some years ago and were extensively refurbished. No word yet on their retirement, but HA does own them outright in addition to the 3 ex-AWAS PW powered 767's N580-582HA.

The remaining 9 767s are leased from ILFC and BCC.

For calendary year 2012, HA will have 4 A330s delivered bringing the total in the fleet to 9 by the end of 2012. The first of the 4 (HA's 6th) was delivered and put into service a few weeks ago. The 7th aircraft was supposed to be delivered this month which may have been delivered already or in the next few days. The 8th is to be delivered sometime in May and the 9th is to be delivered sometime in June. Here's the press release: http://investor.hawaiianairlines.com...-newsArticle&ID=1674715&highlight=

Now, according to this: http://investor.hawaiianairlines.com...-newsArticle&ID=1631515&highlight= HA will have 13 A330's joining the fleet from calendar 2013 to 2015. This is in addition to the 9 accounted for above bringing the total A330 fleet size for HA to 22 by the end of 2015. Also in this same press release, the 2013-2015 A330 deliveries are in part for the replacement of 10 767's being retired. I don't have the time right now to sort through all the annual reports and SEC filings for HA because I think those documents have when all the aircraft leases end, but I am presuming the 10 767's being retired are all or most of the 9 I mentioned above. Of those 9 above, I know 5 of them (all BCC leased) have winglets that HA paid for. The other 4 (all ILFC) do not have winglets so I can deduct those 4 will go first (these were with LTU prior to joining HA). I would think that aircraft with the winglets installed would remain with HA longer because of ROI since HA bought the winglets and not the lessors. So I would deduct the 4 ILFC leased aircraft and the 4 ex-DL aircraft would go first. Also, speaking solely on manufacturing age, these 8 767's are the oldest in HA's fleet. Also, we still need to account for 2 more 767s being retired by the end of 2015 since HA said they were retiring 10. My guess is it will be 2 of the BCC leased and wingleted aircraft since HA owns outright the ex-AWAS leased aircraft. HA already returned 2 767's I think last year and those 2 were BCC leases. This is all my speculation of course having not gone through all the annual reports and SEC filings for the lease information on the 767's.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:35 am

I didn't realize HA owned seven 767s... (I thought it was only 4.) That might justify keeping a subfleet. It might justify picking up a few in 2014 or 2015 (by when I expect 767 resale values to be low) to top off the fleet for 'high season' use.

Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 34):
The remaining 9 767s are leased from ILFC and BCC.

Thank you. I had it backwards. Small fleet of GE with a main fleet of Pratt. Oops! As a 'Pratt fan,' I'm not sure how I had that backwards! oops.

There was even a Pratt press release:
http://www.pw.utc.com/media_center/p...s/2002/02_feb/2-7-2002_7312240.asp

Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 34):
the 2013-2015 A330 deliveries are in part for the replacement of 10 767's being retired.

Again, thank you. The time frame is good enough. I'm not going to worry if HA gains or losses an airframe here or there. Overall it is a growth trend.

Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 34):
The other 4 (all ILFC) do not have winglets so I can deduct those 4 will go first

I suspect non-wingleted 767s have a future as freighters pretty quickly. Not this year... but soon as 787 production ramps up.

I find it interesting Hawaiian has Pratt, GE, and Rolls engines on their widebodies.   
I suspect, as with the Pratts on the 767s, HA has signed fleet service agreements. (I couldn't imagine the cost of such work in Hawaii.)

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SANFan
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 23):
I believe that the next city to see the A330 will be SAN.

I was hearing this rumor earlier this year but nothing recently. (And I haven't seen any equipment change listed in the online schedules so I didn't know if the rumor was still alive or not.)

Thanks for the update and the nice news (maybe.) I sure hope we do see the 330 at Lindbergh this summer!

Mahalo and Aloha!

bb
 
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:17 am

HA has just invested a lot into their 767 interiors and also added winglets. There is no sign that the 767 is going anywhere in the next 5-10 years. When they do go, they will be replaced by A330's or maybe 787's. The 717's are optimized for short flights (engines very efficient in climb, not so much in cruise), so they are perfect for the intra-island market. If each one flies five legs a day, it will be 30 years from delivery before they need to be retired because of aft pressure bulkhead. Their cost of operation may not be the lowest in their size class but their cost of ownership is very low.
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:43 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
If each one flies five legs a day, it will be 30 years from delivery before they need to be retired because of aft pressure bulkhead.

Most HA 717's fly between 10 and 15 legs a day, with the average around 12 to 13.

HAL
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 13):

Wonderful to hear even though I love the HA winglet B763ER aircraft they look amazing...

It's time QF introduced the A332 on the SYD-HNL-SYD route if they intend to compete with HA..

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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 38):
Most HA 717's fly between 10 and 15 legs a day, with the average around 12 to 13.

I've been amazed to see how HA used to (still?) fly as much as 17 legs per day during 'high season.'   

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
There is no sign that the 767 is going anywhere in the next 5-10 years.

All indications are that the lease renewal terms are worse than replacing with A330s or A350s. We've already seen a number returned to BCC as the leases expire. When HA is down to a small number of owned 767s, I'm not sure the fleet will have enough 'economy of scale' to keep around past 2017.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Their cost of operation may not be the lowest in their size class but their cost of ownership is very low.

HA might keep them around for 'high season' peaking, but its expensive to maintain aircraft for flight, so I doubt that is a long term strategy.

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PHX787
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:47 pm

Has anybody seen any HA 330s fly into PHX? Lets say, for a substitution?
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southwest737500
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:50 pm

What are the chances of Hawaiian getting some 787
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41):

Never happened, I highly doubt it will, at least until they have additional A330s. I don't think there is any slack whatsoever in the A332 schedules. I have seen on flightaware when an A332 does have a technical problem, usually they substitute a 767 into Vegas, and pull off the A332 that is doing that routing, to cover for whatever plane isn't available.

In fact..I doubt Hawaiian Airlines as a whole has too much slack in their schedule at all to cover any irregular operations. As small as their route network is, they only have 23 widebodies, and 10 routes from Honolulu daily, (counting only 1x daily flights) to the Mainland US, as well as 8 international routes, which do not operate on all days. LAX has 3 flights daily, and Vegas has either 2 or 3 routes, depending on the day of the week. Throw in the Maui focus city operations to the Mainland US...and if one plane goes out of service..you're bound to have a cancellation of at least one route.
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:18 pm

None of the BCC a/c have come back and in fact they seem to be the pacing item in HA's widebody transition strategy as the leases go out quite a few years ((believe 2 go out to close to 2020 with the 3rd coming out earlier; 2016).

And with HA's new orderbook firmly in the Airbus camp with A330s and A350's, you can bet Boeing won't lift a finger to help take the 763s out any sooner. So with the Boeing a/c in there to 2020, expect we will see HA's owned a/c remaining and they'll operate the 767-300ER's as a small sub-fleet

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 40):
All indications are that the lease renewal terms are worse than replacing with A330s or A350s. We've already seen a number returned to BCC as the leases expire. When HA is down to a small number of owned 767s, I'm not sure the fleet will have enough 'economy of scale' to keep around past 2017. Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
Their cost of operation may not be the lowest in their size class but their cost of ownership is very low.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting trevd (Reply 44):
None of the BCC a/c have come back

I would have sworn at the time these were BCC leases. Were they ILFC?
http://biz.yahoo.com/e/120209/ha10-k.html

and lease return costs incurred with the return of the two leased Boeing 767-300 aircraft in May and October 2011.

Were those Ansett leases?

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trevd
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:14 am

They were 2 of the AWAS aircraft...previously N591HA and N593HA that AWAS then put into Air Canada.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
I would have sworn at the time these were BCC leases. Were they ILFC?
http://biz.yahoo.com/e/120209/ha10-k.html

and lease return costs incurred with the return of the two leased Boeing 767-300 aircraft in May and October 2011.

Were those Ansett leases?
 
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 38):
Most HA 717's fly between 10 and 15 legs a day, with the average around 12 to 13.

OK, then 10-15 years at least. They do fly the hell out of those planes, but they are full of passengers!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 40):
All indications are that the lease renewal terms are worse than replacing with A330s or A350s.

Why would BCC do that? That makes no sense.

Quoting trevd (Reply 44):
And with HA's new orderbook firmly in the Airbus camp with A330s and A350's, you can bet Boeing won't lift a finger to help take the 763s out any sooner.

That makes more sense.
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
That makes more sense.

I know you didn't make the statement that led to this, but does it make sense? We are talking some sort of "retaliatory" action as a result of HA going with Airbus, and I just don't see this as a sensible reason to do that. Am I being naive? Perhaps...but I'm not sure Boeing would look the other way at planes that could find some use elsewhere in the world as a freighter or something...

Just my .02
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RE: HA: 767 Retirement, A330 Deliveries, More 717s?

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 48):
but I'm not sure Boeing would look the other way at planes that could find some use elsewhere in the world as a freighter or something...

You're assuming Boeing would be able to lease those a/c immediately, and at a higher rate than they're currently drawing, otherwise. They'll probably still be able to re-lease them when the term with HA ends.

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