LAXDESI
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Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:18 pm

The linked article suggests that the order may be for both 737NG and 737 MAX.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...ively-with-boeing-on-200-jets.html

Quote:
United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL) is negotiating only with Boeing Co. (BA) for an order of about 200 narrow-body jets after dropping discussions with Airbus SAS (EAD), two people familiar with the matter said.

Aircraft Options
Some of the planes in the 200-jet total may be options for future aircraft, said the people. The value of the order may rise once United settles on terms, because the 737-800 is less expensive than the so-called MAX model with upgraded engines. Airlines typically buy at a discount.

United, the world’s largest airline, is upgrading a single- aisle fleet that includes Boeing 757-200s, with an average age of 18.2 years, and 737-500s that average 16.6 years old. Boeing no longer makes either model.
 
B747forever
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL) is negotiating only with Boeing Co. (BA) for an order of about 200 narrow-body jets after dropping discussions with Airbus SAS (EAD), two people familiar with the matter said.

I am not surprised at all that UA will become almost an all Boeing customer. It seems that the only Airbus UA will operate in the future is the A359.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:23 pm

Interesting if Airbus is out of the running. Assuming that is the case, we're just left with the usual n/b order:

200 of the 737/737Max
Subtype will be flexible and designated by UA at a given point in time.

They'll evaluate the -8Max and -9Max as a 757 replacement for a majority of its missions (domestic). For TATL, we'll likely see the 788 taking those routes over along with the 763's. Yes it means a capacity bump but they will also be able to carry a lot more cargo. Not sure about the difference in efficiency but since there will be no 757 replacement, airlines will have to make do with the 788.
 
phxa340
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
I am not surprised at all that UA will become almost an all Boeing customer.

I am still in the camp that when the time comes, the A321NEO will become a better replacement for the 752 than the 737-9. UA will need a lot more than 200 NB so while it would appear Boeing did a great job keeping UA this time, I wouldn't be shocked to see a follow up Airbus order down the road.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 3):
I am still in the camp that when the time comes, the A321NEO will become a better replacement for the 752 than the 737-9.

I agree when it comes to operating at the far right edge of the 757-200's payload-range chart, but perhaps UA doesn't need that. I believe that CO operated 757s TATL and to Hawaii, UA used 767s for those missions. Now that they are merged, I could see the new UA choosing to operate the 767 on those missions. In such a scenario, the 737-9 has plenty of capacity and range to handle the domestic 757 missions.



Therefore, this may very well be a case of availability. Airbus may not have the slots - especially A320neo slots - available in the number and timeframe that UA needs.

[Edited 2012-04-23 13:35:00]
 
Max Q
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:36 pm

Yes, Smisek loves narrowbodys, but what about a serious widebody order ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
kaitak
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 3):
I wouldn't be shocked to see a follow up Airbus order down the road.

Frankly, I would be; UA may have ordered 319/320s a few years back, but CO people are now in the driving seat. The 737 (and 757) have served CO will when they turned themselves around - and since then - so they have a strong psychological link to Boeing; this definitely works to Boeing's advantage.
 
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STT757
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:37 pm

My speculation;

50 737-900ER (NG's to complete the domestic UA 757 replacement, SAVE the PS and ETOPS PMUA 757s)

150 737-8MAX (replace A319s, A320s, 737-500s, growth?)
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phxa340
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 6):
so they have a strong psychological link to Boeing; this definitely works to Boeing's advantage

A valid point but at the end of the day , a big variable that plays a part in fleet decisions is price ... if Airbus had come in with an amazing price , I think emotional connections become null likewise what STITCH had mentioned, it could have been slot availability. I think the 737-8 is perfect for UA and this just makes great sense. I guess I just feel like the 737-8 and A321MAX combo is optimal based on the future predicted performance.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
50 737-900ER (NG's to complete the domestic UA 757 replacement, SAVE the PS and ETOPS PMUA 757s)

150 737-8MAX (replace A319s, A320s, 737-500s, growth?)

I also see 10-15 737-7s in there for flight ops out of SNA etc
 
hmelawyer
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
150 737-8MAX (replace A319s, A320s, 737-500s, growth?)


Although to save on deposits they will likely all be initially ordered at 737-7MAX with the right to upgrade by a certain date, much like the 737NG order is structured. This is why CO always showed a large number of outstanding 73G orders even though they were not taking any of that particular model.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 6):

Frankly, I would be; UA may have ordered 319/320s a few years back, but CO people are now in the driving seat.

People say that a lot, but A. Is that actually true, & B. Would it matter if so?

If it really is just a matter of slot availibility, I see no reason why Airbus would be out of the running for NEOs at a later time. As mentioned above, the 21NEO is a far more viable candidate for TATL missions than the 739M. I would add that it's also better than using up 767s & 788s on the smaller, thinner routes as well.
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gigneil
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
Yes, Smisek loves narrowbodys, but what about a serious widebody order ?

....other than the 50 787s and the 25 A350s?

NS
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:07 pm

Does anybody know why UA stopped negotiating with Airbus for this?
 
PlaneAdmirer
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:08 pm

Surely the folks at UA have read the thread about the superiority of the GTF on the NEO and know that engine is not available on the 737 MAX. What's wrong with them?   
 
EWRandMDW
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
I am not surprised at all that UA will become almost an all Boeing customer.

I realize this can't be the only reason (or any reason for that matter) for UA talking with Boeing, but their HQs are about 10- or 15-minutes walking distance apart. If it works out then perhaps this can be a positive example of the "Chicago way" of getting things done!
 
phxa340
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 10):
21NEO is a far more viable candidate for TATL missions than the 739M

Honestly , I don't think either of them are going to make a viable 752 replacement, I just think the 321NEO will get closer. But over long stage lengths - I expect the NEO to perform better than the 73-9.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 11):
.other than the 50 787s and the 25 A350s?

I think EK is making us spoiled ... we want big 75+ A380 and 748i orders. I saw the Garuda order for 15 A330s and though to myself eh ... boring.
 
Max Q
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 11):
....other than the 50 787s and the 25 A350s?

Yes.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
drerx7
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 15):
But over long stage lengths - I expect the NEO to perform better than the 73-9.

Based on what? Not being sarcastic or rhetorical here either.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
gigneil
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:12 pm

In this case, welcome back to the real world  

NS
 
phxa340
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 17):
Based on what? Not being sarcastic or rhetorical here either.

From my understanding , the NEOs have bigger engines VS the MAX which adds weight but also makes them more efficient over longer flights. The MAX is lighter which helps it on shorter flights but burns more fuel on longer flights because it has smaller engines.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:14 pm

If this is true, what's the possibility of the 25 A350 wearing UA colors.. it would truely be an orphan (albeit large) fleet.. could we see UA cancelling or selling off these aircraft without ever seeing them? Or will they actually make it into the fleet?

I'm sure there is some who will say the 350 can't be replaced well by a Boeing product, but i'm sure UA could have slightly less seating but more frequency to make up.

Just wondering..
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fxramper
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:15 pm

Surprised UA is considering Boeing over Airbus. Dump all the old nb and I'm a fan of the 757 on internationals out of EWR over a crusty PMUA 763.
 
phxa340
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 20):
If this is true, what's the possibility of the 25 A350 wearing UA colors

99.9% , they are perfect for the UA fleet. Efficient, right sized, and UA supposedly got great purchase and financing terms and will be coming online at the perfect time for UA (Barring no more delays)
 
drerx7
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 19):
From my understanding , the NEOs have bigger engines VS the MAX which adds weight but also makes them more efficient over longer flights. The MAX is lighter which helps it on shorter flights but burns more fuel on longer flights because it has smaller engines.

Yea I figured as much as well; however, I wonder how the aerodynamics and total gross weights of the birds will come into play and if the difference will be negligible. I think the assumption is spot on that we will probably see paid for 767s and new 787s ultimately take over the bulk of the current TATL 757s.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:36 pm

It sounds like UA did their due diligence. Six months of bidding A vs. B!   
Talks had been under way for at least six months about a mix of current-generation Boeing 737s or Airbus A320s plus variants with new, more-efficient engines, said the people, who declined to be identified because details aren’t public.

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
United Continental Holdings Inc. (UAL) is negotiating only with Boeing Co. (BA) for an order of about 200 narrow-body jets after dropping discussions with Airbus SAS (EAD), two people familiar with the matter said.

I suspect, as with AA, they'll have a provision to lease the first birds to replace them later with more mature MAXs.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
They'll evaluate the -8Max and -9Max as a 757 replacement for a majority of its missions (domestic).

   Any runway too short for the 739MAX will just be fractionally downgauged to the 738MAX.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
For TATL, we'll likely see the 788 taking those routes over along with the 763's.

I'm hearing rumors of a 738MAX with a higher MTOW for TATL duty. True or not? I don't know. But I would be shocked if Boeing didn't work on a long haul narrowbody option. The 788 is just too much plane for certain city pairs. With Airbus working hard for an A320NEO/A321NEO for TATL duty (not at EIS, but later), Boeing will have to compete. The 738MAX should have an 15% to 18% or so increase in range over the 738 should give us over 3900nm (minimum TATL range).

I know the already hired pilots want more widebodies. Don't worry, we'll see 788s/789sA359s fragment long haul. However for TATL, I expect once there are TATL range versions, to see the bulk of the growth narowbodies.

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 13):

Surely the folks at UA have read the thread about the superiority of the GTF on the NEO and know that engine is not available on the 737 MAX. What's wrong with them?

UA has been taken over by a bunch of ex-hippies having flashbacks on their low-carb diets.    It the only reason I can think of to ignore the GTF.  

Lightsaber
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apodino
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:40 pm

IIRC, the A320s are among the oldest NB's in the UA Fleet (757's aside). Presumably, a 200 ac order would be in addition to the existing 737ngs coming online. We could be looking at UA completely phasing out the A320 from their fleet, and returning to an all Boeing fleet (Especially given that this is PMCO people primarily running the show)

This also leads to the possibility of two blows being dealt to the A350 program. With PMCO and PMUA both having ordered the 787, it could lead to the possibility of increasing that order and canceling the A350 order. That, coupled with a potential US/AA merger where I believe again that the A350 order would be canceled, and suddenly two of your biggest A350 customers are out.

One unresolved issue is with pilot scope. While I do believe that UA's talks with Boeing are serious, the pilot scope issue is unresolved, and depending on what kind of scope UA ends up getting, UA may be forced to fly an E190/CSeries type of airplane at mainline, which would lead me to believe that any new ac order will not be made until the scope issue is clear.
 
AADC10
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 25):
IIRC, the A320s are among the oldest NB's in the UA Fleet (757's aside). Presumably, a 200 ac order would be in addition to the existing 737ngs coming online. We could be looking at UA completely phasing out the A320 from their fleet, and returning to an all Boeing fleet (Especially given that this is PMCO people primarily running the show)

This also leads to the possibility of two blows being dealt to the A350 program. With PMCO and PMUA both having ordered the 787, it could lead to the possibility of increasing that order and canceling the A350 order. That, coupled with a potential US/AA merger where I believe again that the A350 order would be canceled, and suddenly two of your biggest A350 customers are out.

Part of the reason for the A350 order is that it was to resolve the Ch. 11 issue of an A320 order that PMUA did not take delivery of. Cancelling the A350 order would cost more than just the cancellation fee. The 787 would also be marginal as a 777 replacement, and even less as a 744 replacement.

I can see the desire to have the entire UA narrowbody fleet composed of 737s. The 757 is dead and the 737s outnumber the A319/320s. UA domestic could be the new WN with a vast majority of domestic routes operated by 737s.

Boeing, having been burned by the AA split order, is probably making UA an offer they cannot refuse.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 26):
The 787 would also be marginal as a 777 replacement, and even less as a 744 replacement.

The 787-9 can be an almost 1:1 replacement for UA's 777-200ERs in terms of seating. Both planes have fuselage lengths that are almost identical and the 787-9 fuselage should be able to take the Global First Suite in the same 1+2+1 configuration as on the 777-200ER and it can definitely fit the CO-style BusinessFirst seat in 2+2+2 as well as Economy (Plus) in 3+3+3. I'm not sure the UA-style Business First seat can fit 2+4+2, but frankly most passengers would prefer the 2+2+2 layout of the 767, anyway.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
It sounds like UA did their due diligence. Six months of bidding A vs. B!
Talks had been under way for at least six months about a mix of current-generation Boeing 737s or Airbus A320s plus variants with new, more-efficient engines, said the people, who declined to be identified because details aren’t public.

I think what that makes clear is that UA is doing a very thorough job of fleet planning and it is not a case of the CEO wanting A or B and the airline going for it. They are carefully evaluating various airplanes based on a decision criteria that involves financing, availability, maintenance costs, operation costs, fuel, airport operations, ground operations, etc. I think it is very likely that they would choose the 737NG over the A320 since there are existing orders and options, but the MAX vs NEO would be a fair competition.

Quoting apodino (Reply 25):

This also leads to the possibility of two blows being dealt to the A350 program. With PMCO and PMUA both having ordered the 787, it could lead to the possibility of increasing that order and canceling the A350 order. That, coupled with a potential US/AA merger where I believe again that the A350 order would be canceled, and suddenly two of your biggest A350 customers are out.

I don't see any evidence of them canceling the A350 order. It is a very logical order for what is proving to be the most popular derivative of the A350. I do not believe the 787 alone is adequate as the only order for widebodies at UA as they need something larger. The A350 or 777X I would believe are the options above the 787, but below the VLA's that United has stayed away from ordering. I don't see any evidence at all that indicates United is even considering canceling the A350 order in favor of 777s.
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laca773
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):

50 737-900ER (NG's to complete the domestic UA 757 replacement, SAVE the PS and ETOPS PMUA 757s)

Since UA is changing their p.s. product from PJW to JWY, won't they be able to utilize a sub-fleet of 739ERs (73Js)?

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 15):

Honestly , I don't think either of them are going to make a viable 752 replacement, I just think the 321NEO will get closer. But over long stage lengths - I expect the NEO to perform better than the 73-9.

How do you expect the NEO to perform better than the MAX? Do you know something the rest of us have not heard about thus far?
I don't see the either NEO or MAX being able to efficiently operate from the Northeast to Western Europe. These birds are not a replacement for the 75Ws. I think most of us know for that to happen, both the NEO and MAX would need much stronger wings, have the ability to carry fuel tanks similar too or larger than the 75Ws and have much stronger, larger undercarriage compared to what the NEO & MAX will have or is planned to have (4 wheel landing gears versus the 2.).

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):
I don't see any evidence of them canceling the A350 order. It is a very logical order for what is proving to be the most popular derivative of the A350. I do not believe the 787 alone is adequate as the only order for widebodies at UA as they need something larger. The A350 or 777X I would believe are the options above the 787, but below the VLA's that United has stayed away from ordering. I don't see any evidence at all that indicates United is even considering canceling the A350 order in favor of 777s.

When is UA scheduled to receive their first A350? Undoubtedly, these birds will most likely be delayed as well.
Is there a strong possibility Boeing is going to come out with a 777NG? I know there's been a lot of talk about it, but is there anything more than talk going on?
 
Alias1024
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 25):
One unresolved issue is with pilot scope. While I do believe that UA's talks with Boeing are serious, the pilot scope issue is unresolved, and depending on what kind of scope UA ends up getting, UA may be forced to fly an E190/CSeries type of airplane at mainline, which would lead me to believe that any new ac order will not be made until the scope issue is clear.

This order would likely go mostly to replacing A320s and 757s. The CSeries doesn't really fit that mold. They still have a few years before they need to place orders on an aircraft to replace A319s and 73Gs, which works out great for UA as it gives them a chance to nail down a CBA with the pilot group and see the CSeries put up some actual performance numbers.
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1337Delta764
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 26):
Boeing, having been burned by the AA split order, is probably making UA an offer they cannot refuse.

Exactly what they did with DL. Boeing already lost one of their most loyal customers (AA), and does not want to lose their two other most loyal U.S. customers (DL and UA/CO). I won't be surprised if Boeing offered a sweet deal to the new UA similar to the deal that they made with DL.
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nomorerjs
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:40 am

Has anyone other than Bloomberg reported this? It could be a ploy to get better discounts / slots from Airbus. Also, if UA does go with Boeing, why would UA keep the 359s? They could dump that for the 777Maxipad or whatever it will be called.
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:57 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 21):
I'm a fan of the 757 on internationals out of EWR over a crusty PMUA 763.

wow, this gets old people!   

The 757's at CO were delivered from 1994 to 2000

The 767-300's were delivered from 1991 to 2000

they are the same age, the oldest in each fleet are only 3 years apart!

-m

  
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:13 am

The 359 order supposedly have some stiff penalties built into the contract. A cancellation would be expensive for UA. Besides, they should be receiving them in the next five years or so and on paper, look to be a good replacement for the 744's.

I don't see the disadvantage of a 25-30 strong 359 fleet even if the rest of the UA fleet is Boeing. The introduction of the 77X though could make things VERY interesting  
 
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Stitch
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:17 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 26):
Boeing, having been burned by the AA split order, is probably making UA an offer they cannot refuse.

On a percentage basis, AA's discount on the 737-800 was higher than DL's on the 737-900ER - 52% vs. 51%.

I am of the belief AA went with Airbus primarily because Airbus was willing to finance the order even if AA filed Chapter 11 and because the sheer size of their order - 360 firm and 465 options - and the delivery schedule - all firm and option by 2025 - meant that even if they wanted to give the entire order to Boeing, Boeing couldn't give them the production slots they needed when they needed them. The 100 new 737-800s and 130 new A320-200s both start arriving in 2013, so Boeing would have had to allocate double the number of slots to meet AA's delivery needs and I don't believe Boeing had that many slots (they had sold 508 737s in 2010 and 625 in 2011 [Net In Year of Order]).



Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 33):
Has anyone other than Bloomberg reported this? It could be a ploy to get better discounts / slots from Airbus.

UA has both OEMs numbers. They can just tell Airbus what Boeing's offer is and Airbus can then beat it.

If Airbus is out of the running, I expect a significantly higher per airframe purchase price is not the reason.



Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 33):
Also, if UA does go with Boeing, why would UA keep the 359s? They could dump that for the 777Maxipad or whatever it will be called.

UA does have obligations to Airbus for A320 family airframes they cancelled during their C11 proceedings. They could cancel the A350s, but it would cost them money to do so. Of course, Boeing could offset those lost monies on a 777X / 748 order.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 6):
The 737 (and 757) have served CO will when they turned themselves around - and since then - so they have a strong psychological link to Boeing; this definitely works to Boeing's advantage.

Yeah, it seemed to me like CO was doing fine with Boeing and seemed to like their products. They were pretty effecient prior to the merger and I think the 788 replacing the 757 international routes will work fine. I still think the A321 is the best 757 domestic replacement but there is no reason it can't be done with 737-9. I am sure they are completing reviewing routing post merger so adapting it now to 737s is probably not that hard anyway.

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 22):
99.9% , they are perfect for the UA fleet. Efficient, right sized, and UA supposedly got great purchase and financing terms and will be coming online at the perfect time for UA (Barring no more delays)

I agree. The A350 is perfect for them since they don't really want anything bigger. If I anything, I would expect to order more. If there is a 777max though, that probably would have been there preference but its too late now. I think a lot of airlines wanted a slightly larger 777 thats more effecient and thats exactly what the A359 is. CO never operated anything larger than 777 as far as I know. I don't know how the UA folks feel about losing the 744s though.
 
drerx7
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:37 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 39):
CO never operated anything larger than 777 as far as I know.

They flew 747-100s/200s. Whether they flew them profitably is another question.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
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STT757
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 26):
I can see the desire to have the entire UA narrowbody fleet composed of 737s. The 757 is dead and the 737s outnumber the A319/320s. UA domestic could be the new WN with a vast majority of domestic routes operated by 737s.

While an all 737 (NG, MAX) domestic fleet for UA might be an unappealing prospect for us aviation fans, there seems to me to be a lot of logic behind the move. Just in terms of flexibility during IRROPS having all the domestic crews trained on one aircraft makes melding crews and aircraft together quickly much easier. Lets say there's a major IRROPs event going on at EWR, it's a lot easier to grab crews if everyone flies the same aircraft. Right now durring IRROPS you might have 757 crews and 737 aircraft in one location which you obviously cannot pair up. But if all the domestic flying is on the 737 (NGs, MAX) it really simplifies what can be a very complicated process.

It also creates opportunities for right sizing specific flights, one day the 8AM to TPA from IAH might need the capacity of a 737-900 the next only a 737-700. You can right size specific flights quickly with little affect on the pilot staffing.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 37):
The 359 order supposedly have some stiff penalties built into the contract.

I think we would see UA convert those 25 A350s to say 8 A380s before they were canceled, I don't think they're going to be canceled.
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drerx7
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 41):
I think we would see UA convert those 25 A350s to say 8 A380s before they were canceled, I don't think they're going to be canceled.

The only question mark I see is how compelling Boeing will be with the new 777 or 787-10 offerings.
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:38 am

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 13):
Surely the folks at UA have read the thread about the superiority of the GTF on the NEO and know that engine is not available on the 737 MAX. What's wrong with them?

HAHAHA! You owe me a new laptop, PlaneAdmirer! Awesome!  
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 41):
I think we would see UA convert those 25 A350s to say 8 A380s before they were canceled, I don't think they're going to be canceled.

They can always get rid of them the moment they take posession of them,if they really wanted to. I doubt they will take any A380's at all...
 
Max Q
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):

They flew 747-100s/200s. Whether they flew them profitably is another questio

We certainly did.


It is possible to make a profit on Aircraft bigger than 737's you know..
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apodino
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:57 am

One thing about the A350. If Boeing decides to launch the 787-10, the plane would be very similar in most capabilities to the A350. Since UA is not scheduled to take delivery of the A350 until 2016 at the earliest....that would give Boeing plenty of time on this one.

I know this is slipping into some slippery legal grounds, but could United argue that since the A350 order was placed for the United certificate, and the United Certificate went bye bye with the CO merger, that the penalty clause no longer applies? I would be shocked if Smisek wasn't looking at legal ways to get out of the A350 order in favor of a more simple fleet.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:09 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 46):
I know this is slipping into some slippery legal grounds, but could United argue that since the A350 order was placed for the United certificate, and the United Certificate went bye bye with the CO merger, that the penalty clause no longer applies? I would be shocked if Smisek wasn't looking at legal ways to get out of the A350 order in favor of a more simple fleet.

I doubt that. I think the contract stands as it was a merger, thus previous commitments stand. As for the A350, UA can easily turn around and lease them/sell them to others after taking delivery if they really wanted the 787-1000. While the 787-1000 would fit in very nicely since they would have the other 50 787 coming their way, however, the A350 is an equally capable aircraft. The only difference would be pilot training and having a separate pilot pool for it. I personally don't think getting rid of the 350 to go to a full 787 fleet would justify the headaches...
 
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 31):

+1

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):

I do get where he is coming from, last time I flew CO (2010) I felt very uncomfortable for the three hour flight from EWR to NAS, especially when in the dreaded middle seat. That was on a 737-900ER, then when I flew on US on an A320 their was a lot of extra space in the seat. That extra one inch really does make a big difference, especially on trans-con.
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drerx7
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 45):
We certainly did.

Really?
I know they used them on IAH-HNL...then Gulf War broke out and gas spiked and the route cancelled. Then of course they flew to Gatwick and what not. The last round of them were used out of GUM - correct?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
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Stitch
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 46):
If Boeing decides to launch the 787-10, the plane would be very similar in most capabilities to the A350.

For missions out to 8-10 hours, yes, so it would work well for East Coast TATL and SEA-NRT. For TPAC or West Coast TATL, it's not going to have the legs (which the A350-900 will have).
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 50):
For TPAC or West Coast TATL, it's not going to have the legs (which the A350-900 will have).

I agree with you for the longest TPAC, but the 787-10 should do West Coast TPAC and all the TATL routes just fine. It should have about 800-1000 nm more range than today's A330-300, which already does shorter West Coast TATL routes and SEA-NRT -- about the same range as a 767-200ER.
 
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RE: Bloomberg: UA Discussing 200 NB Order With Boeing

Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):
I don't see any evidence of them canceling the A350 order.

There is absolutely no evidence of it. Internal communications over the Earth week made it VERY clear that the A350 is a key part of the strategy.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 29):
How do you expect the NEO to perform better than the MAX? Do you know something the rest of us have not heard about thus far?

No... we have all certainly heard about it.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
They can just tell Airbus what Boeing's offer is and Airbus can then beat it.

You know they cannot do that. That would be illegal beyond their wildest dreams.

Even an RFP response written by a 1st year law student makes the deal VERY contingent on nondisclosure.

NS