Gonzalo
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EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:19 am

One more time the Ezeiza - Ministro Pistarini Intl. Airport, the most important of Argentina, is operating with Secondary Radar, which requires information from the crews in the air and reduce the overall safety in the operation of the terminal.

The worst part is, this is consequence of lack of maintenance ( lubrication ), and the return of the Primary Radar will take several days....

Source ( only Spanish for the moment ) :

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1468189-no-funciona-el-radar-de-ezeiza
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jfk777
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:28 am

How can the second most important airport in Latin America not have its radar working ? What is going on in Argentina, are they nationalizing the radar too ? After nationalizing YPF.
 
C010T3
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
second most important airport in Latin America

Come again?
 
Gonzalo
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
What is going on in Argentina, are they nationalizing the radar too ? After nationalizing YPF.

I humbly recommend you to see "Fuerza Aerea S.A.", a film made by an ex LAPA Pilot ( Enrique Pyñeiro ). I think is available in YouTube.
You will understand form when and where the problems are coming.

And regarding the whole country situation, there is a thread in Non Av, with some useful information.

Rgds.

G.
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totesen
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 2):
second most important airport in Latin America

??? say What? you do know that MEX and GRU exist right? and they are way ahead of EZE in terms of flights, infraestructure and traffic.
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757gb
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:56 pm

The article notes that authorities are looking for spare parts for the primary radar, which is no longer in production. Same thing happened in 2007 and obtaining the necessary spare took several months. How old is the primary radar for EZE?

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
I humbly recommend you to see "Fuerza Aerea S.A."

Remembering that documentary and reading how the secondary radar requires more communication between crews and controllers, I hope the communication level is up to par. Scenes of controllers simply not understanding the conversation with pilots give me the chills. Aviation is built around safety margins, but those margins erode quickly when you don't have good communication.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
SCL767
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
How can the second most important airport in Latin America not have its radar working

EZE is the second most important airport in Latin America? Last year, only 8.3 million passengers traveled through EZE; meanwhile 12.2 million passengers traveled through Lima's Jorge Chávez International Airport and 12.1 million passengers traveled through Santiago's Comodoro Arturo Merino Benítez International Airport!
 
jfk777
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
EZE is the second most important airport in Latin America? Last year, only 8.3 million passengers traveled through EZE; meanwhile 12.2 million passengers traveled through Lima's Jorge Chávez International Airport and 12.1 million passengers traveled through Santiago's Comodoro Arturo Merino Benítez International Airport!

In My humble opinion Sao Paulo's GRU is the first and EZE is thes second. Its not only about the number of passengers but the portfilio of airlines. EZE is flown to by SAA, Qatar and Emirates. Do such airlines fly to Lima or SCL ?
 
Gonzalo
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting 757gb (Reply 5):
Scenes of controllers simply not understanding the conversation with pilots give me the chills. Aviation is built around safety margins, but those margins erode quickly when you don't have good communication.

And he not only didn't understood the AF pilot ( who was talking a very decent English ), he also stated that the ILS for runway 35 was functional, leading the AF crew to a missed approach when they never received the signal ( because in fact the ILS was inoperative ). That case was really incredible, the AF crew requested to talk with the authorities upon arrival, but I have no idea what results they obtained from that move.

G.
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SCL767
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
EZE is flown to by SAA, Qatar and Emirates. Do such airlines fly to Lima or SCL ?

Sooner or later we'll see LH, QR and EK at both SCL and LIM! Interesting to note that so far this year, QF dumped EZE in favor of SCL and MH dropped EZE as a destination.
 
C010T3
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting totesen (Reply 4):
??? say What? you do know that MEX and GRU exist right? and they are way ahead of EZE in terms of flights, infraestructure and traffic.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
EZE is the second most important airport in Latin America? Last year, only 8.3 million passengers traveled through EZE; meanwhile 12.2 million passengers traveled through Lima's Jorge Chávez International Airport and 12.1 million passengers traveled through Santiago's Comodoro Arturo Merino Benítez International Airport!

Let's not forget GIG with 14.9 million last year or even BOG with 20.2 million.
 
SCL767
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 10):
Let's not forget GIG with 14.9 million last year or even BOG with 20.2 million.

And you could add Brasília-BSB to the list with 15.3 million pax traveling through BSB last year.
 
CamiloA380
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):

Ok, so why didn't you start a thread about the radar problem MVD had lately?
Oh wait it wasn't Argentina !

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
What is going on in Argentina, are they nationalizing the radar too ?

I certainly see your first point, but this one made me laugh! 
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
I humbly recommend you to see "Fuerza Aerea S.A.", a film made by an ex LAPA Pilot ( Enrique Pyñeiro ).

I recommend you to watch every film/documentary/whatever that guy has done.

Even this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbOGWzQlABE

You will most definitely not like what he says at 5:15 onwards. I might not agree, but this guy has a point right there.

I have the feeling you need to watch the Lapa one too, this guy fought for the safety of that airline. No one listened to him, and August 31st 1999 arrived. But things have changed a lot ever since.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
EZE is the second most important airport in Latin America? Last year, only 8.3 million passengers traveled through EZE; meanwhile 12.2 million passengers traveled through Lima's Jorge Chávez International Airport and 12.1 million passengers traveled through Santiago's Comodoro Arturo Merino Benítez International Airport!

Forget about SCL and LIM in that case. We have GIG, BOG, BSB, MEX, CUN, GRU...

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
Sooner or later we'll see LH, QR and EK at both SCL and LIM!

Congrats, they are still behind EZE on that matter.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
Interesting to note that so far this year, QF dumped EZE in favor of SCL and MH dropped EZE as a destination.

It sounds like you had a party because of this  . The move by QF was obvious, just as MH isn't doing good. Meanwhile your OW partner BA still flies to EZE but not SCL.
Flying4Ever!
 
757gb
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Ok, so why didn't you start a thread about the radar problem MVD had lately?
Oh wait it wasn't Argentina !

MVD has had its own problems, but compared with EZE traffic at MVD is a joke. You'd really have to try hard to have a safety problem at MVD (unless traffic is diverted from EZE, in which case MVD will likely be overwhelmed). No radar at EZE is scary. Granted that they have the back up, but as mentioned the communication better be good... I don't like at all the idea of eating into the safety margins. There is a history of irresponsibility in that respect. Then as you mentioned, days like 8/31/99 come and the smelly stuff hits the fan...
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
SCL767
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Forget about SCL and LIM in that case. We have GIG, BOG, BSB, MEX, CUN, GRU...

It's interesting to note that both SCL and LIM have more flights to BOG, CUN, MEX, PTY, PUJ...

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Meanwhile your OW partner BA still flies to EZE but not SCL.

Meanwhile the main international carrier at Lima and Santiago has 32 B-787s on order to launch flights to destinations such as LHR. Also, you'll be able to see our first B-787-8 at EZE later this year!  
 
Gonzalo
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Ok, so why didn't you start a thread about the radar problem MVD had lately?

Because the traffic is not so big ( is really small compared with EZE ), traffic in MVD can be managed by Secondary Radar without a compromise to safety, not the EZE case.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
Oh wait it wasn't Argentina !

No it wasn't. Thank God Uruguay is veeeeeeeery different to Argentina in most of the important things.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 12):
You will most definitely not like what he says at 5:15 onwards. I might not agree, but this guy has a point right there.

I already saw that video long time ago. Yes he got a point, but the bleeding of AR is not a consequence of the airline doing social services flying to remote isolated places without commercial profile, the bleeding is mostly a consequence of other factors ( see Reply 2 ) and everybody knows that.

Rgds.
G.
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MD11junkie
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:07 pm

I'm sorry.

Why has this thread veered off into who's got the biggest one (quién la tiene más grande)?
I really couldn't give a bleeding... well, you know, if EZE was the 1st, 2nd o 10th airport.

Now, onto the REAL part of the thread:

Gonzalo,
If you actually KNEW what you are talking about you would know that the Thompson Radar was installed in 1973 (with the first upgrade of EZE) and ever since the new Secondary Radars installed in Moreno, Quilmes, La Plata and Ezeiza too, it has gone out of Active Duty and only to serve as back up. There are TWO Thompson Radars. Primary AND Secondary. The one affected today is the Secondary - the back up one. The primary radar is functioning perfectly.

This article you posted coming from a long line of opposing media outlets (especially Diario La Nacion with a huge connection of the ignorant military that lead to the aeronautic infraestructure situation that the Government is trying to solve), is nothing but a bunch of words tangled together making almost no sense at all.

The INDRA radar mentioned by the article was indeed loaned, not acquired, to the government by the Spanish Air Force. After the installation of the abovementioned radars - before it was returned, Spain decided it had no duty life left and is here for the rest of its life.

3 MET I radars from INVAP are awaiting Certification as Primary Radars for 3 big sectors in the country.

Gracias CamiloA380 and 757gb!  

Saludos,

[Edited 2012-04-26 10:20:53]
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Gonzalo
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 16):
If you actually KNEW what you are talking about you would know that the Thompson Radar was installed in 1973 (with the first upgrade of EZE) and ever since the new Secondary Radars installed in Moreno, Quilmes, La Plata and Ezeiza too, it has gone out of Active Duty and only to serve as back up. There are TWO Thompson Radars. Primary AND Secondary. The one affected today is the Secondary - the back up one. The primary radar is functioning perfectly.

This article you posted coming from a long line of opposing media outlets (especially Diario La Nacion with a huge connection of the ignorant military that lead to the aeronautic infraestructure situation that the Government is trying to solve), is nothing but a bunch of words tangled together making almost no sense at all.

Really? I guess "Clarín Lies" is your next reply...

http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/Demor...ue-funciona-radar_0_689331278.html

Both papers are saying the same : "the most important Radar is not functioning" I don't care if the brand is Thompson, Raytheon or Samsung, is the most important and is not funcitoning.
Is really simple, the flights are being separated by 5 minutes from each other ( precisely to ensure separation ), that is something anyone with a..... wristwatch can prove !!!!! Why are they doing that if "everything is OK" as you are saying ??

Rgds.

G.

[Edited 2012-04-26 12:05:50]
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MD11junkie
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17):
Both papers are saying the same : "the most important Radar is not functioning" I don't care if the brand is Thompson, Raytheon or Samsung, is the most important and is not funcitoning.

No, the BRAND issue is because there are two radars with the same brand - they could've easily "confused" it to generate uncertainty.

However, nowhere it states that it is the Primary Radar (Radar Primario). It's only mentioned to be el "radar principal", which, actually, is not the same. I'm not saying "Clarín Miente" as you suggest, but Media Outlets (on both sides) in this country (that you know so little of) tend to modify facts in order to fit their truths to satisfy their interests.

This article says that the radar hasn't been functioning since Tuesday. That being the case, I've asked our airport staff if there had been any anomalies with Ground and Approach clearances and they said that everything was normal and that no delays were encountered. Our flight arrived normally around 1500, and departed normally at around 1830. Bang on time, quite in the middle of rush hour. As you can see, this radar is NOT affecting operations nor security.

Saludos,

[Edited 2012-04-26 13:49:15]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
sciurusmdg
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:36 am

Not sure if it is related, but BA244 (EZE to LHR) is delayed by about 13hrs. Wondering if anyone knows why and if it is related to the radar issues.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:02 am

Radar is overrated.

"Cleared for an approach, call Tower"...

No, seriously, busy airports such as EZE should not have radar issues like this.

Also, there is distinction that should be made between "Main radar and backup radar", which is what is happening at EZE i believe (main radar out, meaning they are running on a backup radar, which by the sounds of it is not as good as the main one), and "Primary or secondary radar".

A primary surveillance radar (PSR) system measures the range and bearing of targets by detecting reflected radio signals.

A secondary surveillance radar system (SSR) not only detects and measures the position of aircraft i.e. range and bearing, but also requests additional information from the aircraft itself such as its identity and altitude. SSR relies on targets equipped with a radar transponder, that replies to each interrogation signal by transmitting a response containing encoded data.

In busy terminal environments, both PSR and SSR are required to provide adequate service. They are mounted one on top of each other, usually, the main dish being the PSR and the little scanner on top the SSR.

Thenoflyzone
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danild
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
How can the second most important airport in Latin America not have its radar working ? What is going on in Argentina, are they nationalizing the radar too ? After nationalizing YPF.

I don't know about recent data but EZE would be a distant 12th rather than "second most important" at least by traffic...

http://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2011/04/16...ts-in-latin-america/preview/page/1

Is it an inconvenience to Argentinians? yes, is it the end of the Latin American World as we know it!? No!

You should check your facts before making bold statements as your post...

Cheers!
Danild
 
ghost77
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:09 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 14):
Meanwhile the main international carrier at Lima and Santiago has 32 B-787s on order to launch flights to destinations such as LHR. Also, you'll be able to see our first B-787-8 at EZE later this year!

What does this has to do with the thread???

I'm sure suggesting a post deletion.

g77
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speedbird128
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:22 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 16):
There are TWO Thompson Radars. Primary AND Secondary. The one affected today is the Secondary - the back up one. The primary radar is functioning perfectly.

Us radar guys only really care about secondary radar. Despite its misleading name, its waay more important than primary... Primary radar is just a green blob if its unprocessed, or a little x if it is. Secondary provides a transponder code (Mode-A), so it can be linked to a flight plan, and also altitude indication (Mode-C). Then with newer equipment, more information like flight ID, indicated airspeed, heading, rate of climb, mcp level, etc can be obtained to (this is enhanced Mode-S).

However, the civil aviation authority might require both primary and secondary to be operational simultaneously. This is the tricky bit as the old thompson stuff is ancient history. Thales is now what Thompson was, i believe.
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jfk777
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:54 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):EZE is flown to by SAA, Qatar and Emirates. Do such airlines fly to Lima or SCL ?
Sooner or later we'll see LH, QR and EK at both SCL and LIM! Interesting to note that so far this year, QF dumped EZE in favor of SCL and MH dropped EZE as a destination.

Malaysia stopped EZE because its lost tons of money, it didn't go to another Latin destination. Qantas moving makes perfect sense since SCL is a OW hub and is closer to Australia.

Seeing Qatar and Emirates in Lima and Santiago ? I wouldn't expect them any time soon since these two cities are on South America's west coast. Very far from Dubai, could a 777 even fly nonstop from DUB to SCL or Lima ? EZE is flown via Rio. Until Lima to NRT of HKG happens the west coast of South America will not see nonstop to Asia.
 
757gb
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 20):
A primary surveillance radar (PSR) system measures the range and bearing of targets by detecting reflected radio signals.

A secondary surveillance radar system (SSR) not only detects and measures the position of aircraft i.e. range and bearing, but also requests additional information from the aircraft itself such as its identity and altitude. SSR relies on targets equipped with a radar transponder, that replies to each interrogation signal by transmitting a response containing encoded data.

Thanks for clarifying that. Semantics can be confusing, especially when reporting technical news to people without the technical knowledge. As MD11junkie noted, in the translation "primary" becomes "main" and "secondary" sounds like just a back up, when in reality the SSR provides more information to the controllers (assuming everyone uses a transponder of course). It makes for interesting but not very accurate headlines.

Now my question is: does the SSR "paint" the aircraft with radio signals and receive the echo? My instinct says no, otherwise you would just have an "all in one" and the combination PSR/SSR would not make sense. But I've heard a couple different opinions on that, so if anybody could clarify it would be appreciated  

Regards,
GB
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: EZE : No Primary Radar ( Again...)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting 757gb (Reply 25):
does the SSR "paint" the aircraft with radio signals and receive the echo?

It doesn't receive and echo. It receives a signal by the transponder. So no.

This is why the range of an SSR is around 200 nm whereas a PSR is only accurate to around 80 nm from the radar antenna.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 25):
My instinct says no,

Your instinct is right.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!

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