paneuropean
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The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:30 pm

CVG has been highly recognised and appreciated by US and worldwide travellers. In fact it's been awarded as best (regional) airport in the US by Skytrax this year

http://www.worldairportawards.com/Aw...2012/list_bestairport_namerica.htm

However pax. numbers have dropped dramatically since the Delta cuts before and after the merger with NW as we all know and is now just a small Delta hub.

What is the future gonna hold for CVG. Will the airport remain with overcapacity and remain mainly as an O&D during the next decades. Will Delta invest again in CVG or will another airline return this gem into a true hub where more travellers have the chance to discover the easy of connecting.

What are your thoughts?
 
boeing773er
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:34 pm

I don't foresee Cincinnati remaining a major hub for delta much longer. They are mainly regional flying, I believe they only have 13 mainline destinations from there. I believe it is still important to delta but, I think they have their minds in other places.
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FSDan
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 1):
I don't foresee Cincinnati remaining a major hub for delta much longer. They are mainly regional flying, I believe they only have 13 mainline destinations from there. I believe it is still important to delta but, I think they have their minds in other places.

  

DL will never grow CVG back to a connecting hub. They will provide enough service to capture the O&D and serve the business community, but anything more than that can go via DTW.
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SouthernDC9
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:24 pm

I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.
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Noise
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 3):
I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.

That's so sad.

What are they going to do with the rest of the airport/terminals? Aren't they going to have to decommission additional space? Will they consolidate all operations into one single terminal?
 
flyguy89
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting paneuropean (Thread starter):
CVG has been highly recognised and appreciated by US and worldwide travellers. In fact it's been awarded as best (regional) airport in the US by Skytrax this year

It's the second time they have won this award, so they must be doing something right. Despite all the cut-backs, the airport board does an excellent job of maintaining the airport and responding to customer demands. Some of the improvement put into place this year for example include free wifi throughout the airport and strengthening cell phone coverage in all the terminal areas.

Quoting paneuropean (Thread starter):
What is the future gonna hold for CVG. Will the airport remain with overcapacity and remain mainly as an O&D during the next decades. Will Delta invest again in CVG or will another airline return this gem into a true hub where more travellers have the chance to discover the easy of connecting.

It's hard to say at this point really, but going forward I think CVG has a bright future as a non-hub airport. While pax operations have shrunk considerably, cargo operations have boomed and DHL has twice expanded their facility at CVG with 747's, 767's, 757's, and DC-8's now regular visitors to CVG again.

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 1):
I don't foresee Cincinnati remaining a major hub for delta much longer. They are mainly regional flying, I believe they only have 13 mainline destinations from there. I believe it is still important to delta but, I think they have their minds in other places.

Agreed. Of course there's always the possibility of a start-up hubbing CVG in the distant future when the economy improves, I don't see DL ever expanding operations again. For now though, they seem to have found an equilibrium they are happy with at the hub and long-term I would expect them to remain with a presence on the major point-to-point routes from CVG (i.e. LGA, DCA, LAX, RDU, MCI, CDG, in addition to their hubs).

I also continue to believe that in the near future we will see WN move their DAY operation to CVG. I know some people say WN will never come to CVG as they 'ring' Cincinnati with DAY, IND, CMH, and SDF, but Cincinnati is too large of a market and would be too much traffic left on the table for them not to serve it.

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 3):
I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.

Conventional wisdom would have predicted this flight getting cut a while ago, but I suppose P&G practically pays for the route with their Wal-Mart traffic, that's the only reason I can think of as to why it's still around.
 
MAV88
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting paneuropean (Thread starter):
CVG has been highly recognised and appreciated by US and worldwide travellers. In fact it's been awarded as best (regional) airport in the US by Skytrax this year

http://www.worldairportawards.com/Aw...2012/list_bestairport_namerica.htm

However pax. numbers have dropped dramatically since the Delta cuts before and after the merger with NW as we all know and is now just a small Delta hub.

What is the future gonna hold for CVG. Will the airport remain with overcapacity and remain mainly as an O&D during the next decades. Will Delta invest again in CVG or will another airline return this gem into a true hub where more travellers have the chance to discover the easy of connecting.

What are your thoughts?

At the end of the day, it's Cincinnati. Not a large city, not a large metro area, not a draw at all for tourists. Nothing major happens there (conventions, sporting events, music festivals, etc.). Aside from P&G, Cintas, Kroger and Macy's, not much is going on there business wise.
 
PHX787
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:31 pm

Being a Cincinnatian, the airport has a lot of memories for me, and it is a real shame seeing it the way it is. I can't tell you how many times I hear someone from the region complain about the lack of service at the airport, but it's like everybody said, DL simply has no use for the airport anymore because of DTW. For a while, we were all holding our breath and hoping a crippling snowstorm in Detroit would send service back to CVG from DTW.

The main issue at CVG is that it is running at about 10% of what it can actually serve. 3 parallel runways, one rather long cross runway, 3 terminals (2 are closed, I know, but you get my point,) and one terminal with 3 concourses (one closed, i know, again, don't give me crap)
When OH (Comair) developed that concourse C, and when the regional jet routing began to change, that was CVG's death knell.

Now the real issue is this: How do we keep businesses in Cincinnati and how do we make up for having all these facilities? WN will never serve CVG as they have DAY, SDF, IND, and CMH. 9K has DTW and probably won't come to CVG. My point being, the only extra service I see coming to CVG, unless the local governments really start kissing ass, is possibly G4 to AZA. The CDG route will remain as long as P&G stays in the Nati.

We have seen Chiquita leave Cincy for CLT because of more options there in the other Queen City. My dad, who works for a bank in Cincy, has told me he may relocate out here to PHX with me for more options. Many businesses have been begging CVG and DL to add flights or they'll simply leave Cincinnati for more options.

My point being...unless drastic changes or something huge happens to one of the midwest hubs for DL, or another "mainline" airline begins to expand service out of CVG, the city will die a slow painful death. I've already left the city for PHX and a number of my relatives and friends also left Cincinnati. When I left in 2010, that's really when the city began a spiral downwards.
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b727fa
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:42 pm

Funny how the companies are "begging Delta for service" now when they refused to support the hub when it was here. Cincinnati, (and I say this as a resident) you got what you asked for. Tough.
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lhcvg
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
The main issue at CVG is that it is running at about 10% of what it can actually serve. 3 parallel runways, one rather long cross runway, 3 terminals (2 are closed, I know, but you get my point,) and one terminal with 3 concourses (one closed, i know, again, don't give me crap)
When OH (Comair) developed that concourse C, and when the regional jet routing began to change, that was CVG's death knell.

Regarding Rwy 9/27, about six years ago there was a rumor coming out of OH that 27 was being extended to allow for Asian service! That always struck me as presumptuous at best, but it did make for a good laugh.
 
flyguy89
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
WN will never serve CVG as they have DAY, SDF, IND, and CMH.

See my post above. Cincinnati is easily the largest city not served by WN, even with it's bases in the other airports around the region, they would simply be leaving too much traffic on the table and they're never going to capture any sort of decent market share in Cincinnati by just serving airports you have to drive an hour and a half to get to. And if WN doesn't, then it will be F9, B6, G4, or NK, but I highly doubt WN would let any of them swoop in and steal market share from under their noses.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
We have seen Chiquita leave Cincy for CLT because of more options there in the other Queen City.

The move had a lot more to do with $20 million in incentives NC and Charlotte offered them. While air service at CVG played a part, companies by no means pack up for an expensive move and leave solely based on something as changing and fluctuating as air service.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
How do we keep businesses in Cincinnati

A lot of people seem to get this fundamental equation backwards, airlines (with rare exception) don't add flights and wait for businesses to move to a city and fill the flights up, but rather when businesses move to a city and create enough demand, airlines add flights. Bottom line: if you want more flights to your local airport, grow the city and grow demand. By yours and a lot of other peoples' logic, Wal-Mart should have moved it's HQ out of Bentonville a long time ago as XNA has very little air service and no international flights, yet they remain because it's probably cheap for them and the city works to keep them in the city.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
My point being...unless drastic changes or something huge happens to one of the midwest hubs for DL, or another "mainline" airline begins to expand service out of CVG, the city will die a slow painful death

You're painting a picture here that's much more bleak than the situation really is. Actually living here, I can tell you that CVG is still very well served for a city it's size and that the local economy is doing just fine. Chiquita leaving was certainly a disappointment but was really a long time coming as Carl Lindner was the only person keeping them in Cincinnati. Otherwise, the corporate community is still strong with Macy's, Kroger, GE Aviation, Kao Brands, P&G, DunnhumbyUSA, 5/3 Bank, First Financial, Western&Southern, Omnicare, Ashland, EW Scripps, Great American Insurance, American Financial Group, Cintas, Convergys, Toyota North America...etc still calling Cincinnati home, many of them growing/expanding in the area, with no plans or grumblings of leaving.
 
SouthernDC9
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:19 pm

Also the time before when I connected through CVG going to Little Rock (probably 2-3 years ago at least) my connecting gate had a pay phone at it - I had not seen one in eons, very old school.
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
For a while, we were all holding our breath and hoping a crippling snowstorm in Detroit would send service back to CVG from DTW.

I'm sure STL wished that on ORD.

The reality is that airlines need a strong business presence for a hub. While excellent airline service will help grow a city, it isn't sufficient. Hence why hubs grow and collapse.  

The list of ex-hubs that are pre-build for growth is getting pretty large:
CVG
STL
PIT
MEM
CLE


Not to mention non-hubs that had ambitions (e.g., ICT).

Lightsaber
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BMI727
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:00 pm

Delta will have a fair number of flights, having built up a frequent flier base and being in the best position to serve the local market. There's no reason for a hub at CVG though.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
Many businesses have been begging CVG and DL to add flights or they'll simply leave Cincinnati for more options.

They obviously didn't use the flights that they had, otherwise they'd still be there. Delta never cut a flight because it was making too much money. Besides, I'm sure Delta would be more than happy to add a route to anywhere they want if the businesses write a big enough check.

I don't really get the point of businesses whining about service cuts. If it was as important as they make it out to be then the service wouldn't be cut.
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zrs70
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:19 pm

When I was a student rabbi studying in Cincinnati, I flew monthly to Great Falls via SLC. DL had an L10 flying CVF-SLC at the time. Airport was always packed.
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paneuropean
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 3):
I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.

I have flown in and out of CVG several times during the late eighties and early nineties. My recent visits were in '07 and '09. In between CVG has developped into a large Delta hub with nonstop connections to FRA, LHR, MUC, BRU, AMS, FCO. I was very much impressed lately about the facility. It didn't look like a abandoned airport however, but a big Comair destination served by Bombardier CRJ's

Reasons why DL is dehubbing CVG are obvious, however leaving a state of the art terminal facility with a capacity of app 25 million pax. unused is something I don't understand. Jetblue comes to mind

So eg. Jetblue comes to mind when it comes to a new fresh wind into CVG using it as a new midwest hub. Wishful thinking?
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
The list of ex-hubs that are pre-build for growth is getting pretty large:
CVG
STL
PIT
MEM
CLE

Indeed. What I wonder, looking like 10 years down the road is that all those cities sit at a weird cross roads when it comes to being a hub. They are not HUGE metro areas w/ tones of biz (as mentioned above) BUT they are not on smaller side like say DAY, SAT, AUS, MSY, etc either. Assuming there are 3 big airlines some day that are entrenched in the huge metro areas (ORD, DFW, IAH, NYC, ATL, etc) and w/ these airports good facilities it will be interesting to see if an upstart will move in, make it a foretress and grow from there (esp as tons of older A320s and 737NGs go on used market). If that is case it will bring the industry back to where it was, too much capacity yet I could see such a newer airline doing well esp if it joined an alliance as the biz travellers in those markets would probably be "over" switching at the hubs.
 
ckfred
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:04 pm

My used to work for a company called Convergys, which was the non-regulated businesses spun off from Cincinnati Bell. One of the reasons why it remained headquartered in Cinci was the fact that Delta had a large hub. The company (ticker symbol CVG) has offices throughout the U.S., Canada, Latin America, Europe, and India.

If I remember correctly, the company got some tax incentives to move employees into one building downtown (they had been spread out in several buildings in downtown, plus some locations in the suburbs to the north. So, I don't think Convergys is going anywhere. But, I'm betting that employees have to connect more at ATL, JFK, SLC, and MSP than they did 10 or 12 years ago.
 
PHX787
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
Bottom line: if you want more flights to your local airport, grow the city and grow demand.

The problem there is, businesses don't want to move to a city that is losing business as it is.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):

They obviously didn't use the flights that they had
Quoting B727FA (Reply 8):
Funny how the companies are "begging Delta for service" now when they refused to support the hub when it was here. Cincinnati, (and I say this as a resident) you got what you asked for. Tough.

They were pissed that DL charged an arm an a leg for flights. The entire community was, which is why we began flying from IND, DAY, etc etc. Only the upper middle class and above could feasibly afford to fly out of CVG during the late 90's/early 2000's up until the turndown, when they began charging less, and now fares are back to where they were pre-merger.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 17):
the company got some tax incentives
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
$20 million in incentives NC and Charlotte offered them.

BECAUSE businesses, etc, and the economy and the fact that more and more people are leaving Cincinnati, the city can't afford to give these incentives.
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flyguy89
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
Bottom line: if you want more flights to your local airport, grow the city and grow demand.

The problem there is, businesses don't want to move to a city that is losing business as it is.

Where? Sure Chiquita left, but as I said, that was a long time coming, even when the hub was larger with more international flights, most of their business is in LatAm and CVG never had any LatAm flights even at it's biggest. Other than that, no businesses have left or are planning to leave.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
Quoting ckfred (Reply 17):
the company got some tax incentives
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
$20 million in incentives NC and Charlotte offered them.

BECAUSE businesses, etc, and the economy and the fact that more and more people are leaving Cincinnati, the city can't afford to give these incentives.

Oh I won't doubt that the city has problems, but it's the State governments that foot the bill for most of the incentives, cities usually help with the logistics end of business recruitment (i.e. real estate) . People are leaving Cincinnati, but not the region, the Cincinnati MSA is one of the few metro areas experiencing decent growth in the US, particularly the northern Cincy suburbs and the Northern Kentucky area.
 
JHCRJ700
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 3):
I connected through CVG last month (XNA-CVG-DCA) figuring there wouldn't be many more such opportunities for long... there were ten of us on the XNA-CVG CRJ. CVG was like a ghost town, it was weird. Super easy connection though. The DCA flight was full.

I remember a few years back (Pre NW DL merger) walking through the airport and every regional flight in the terminal was packed and every gate had a plane in it. Sorry to hear it's now a ghost town.
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AADC10
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
It's the second time they have won this award, so they must be doing something right.

Part of that award is a benefit of the lack of flights. Flights are more likely to be on time because there are few aircraft waiting to land or take off. Fewer flights means fewer bags to mishandle. There is plenty of space in the terminal and short security lines. If the airport was close to capacity, then its ratings would fall.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
See my post above. Cincinnati is easily the largest city not served by WN, even with it's bases in the other airports around the region, they would simply be leaving too much traffic on the table and they're never going to capture any sort of decent market share in Cincinnati by just serving airports you have to drive an hour and a half to get to.

One of the problems at CVG is the overhead of the construction to handle all of DL's flights. As the number of flights shrink, landing fees have to be spread to a smaller number of flights, sending fees up. As fees go up, even more flights are cut, placing the airport in a death spiral, similar to STL and PIT.

WN will stay out until CVG pays its bonds and can keep its landing fees down. WN did not go to DEN until the bonds were refinanced and landing rates were significantly reduced.
 
flyguy89
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 21):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
See my post above. Cincinnati is easily the largest city not served by WN, even with it's bases in the other airports around the region, they would simply be leaving too much traffic on the table and they're never going to capture any sort of decent market share in Cincinnati by just serving airports you have to drive an hour and a half to get to.

One of the problems at CVG is the overhead of the construction to handle all of DL's flights. As the number of flights shrink, landing fees have to be spread to a smaller number of flights, sending fees up. As fees go up, even more flights are cut, placing the airport in a death spiral, similar to STL and PIT.

Fortunately that is not going to be the case at CVG. The DHL hub has replaced a lot of the revenue that would have been lost due to the DL hub cuts.
 
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flylku
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:15 pm

I have not been to CVG in a very long time. How does it compare to PIT in terms of its current versus former self?
...are we there yet?
 
BMI727
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:27 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
They were pissed that DL charged an arm an a leg for flights. The entire community was, which is why we began flying from IND, DAY, etc etc. Only the upper middle class and above could feasibly afford to fly out of CVG during the late 90's/early 2000's up until the turndown, when they began charging less, and now fares are back to where they were pre-merger

Not having service is not the same as not being willing to pay for service.
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deltaffindfw
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:37 pm

As has been stated in many other threads, one of the main handcuffs CVG has is that they cannot offer special incentives to one new airline. If they offer those incentives, they must offer the same incentives to DL - per their lease agreements. There was a recent article in the Enquirer that stated one of the main objectives of the KCAB is to re-negotiate those leases in 2015. The article talks about using the extra land, but I'm sure the incentive clauses will be part of it.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120420/BIZ/304200116
 
joeman
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:47 pm

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 6):
At the end of the day, it's Cincinnati. Not a large city, not a large metro area, not a draw at all for tourists. Nothing major happens there (conventions, sporting events, music festivals, etc.). Aside from P&G, Cintas, Kroger and Macy's, not much is going on there business wise.

Except for a lower metro unemployment rate than places like Chicago, Atlanta, Charlotte, Seattle
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deltaflyertoo
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 23):
I have not been to CVG in a very long time. How does it compare to PIT in terms of its current versus former self?

PIT was a much larger hub for US than what CVG was for DL. Also US had planned to turn PIT into what DL has at ATL, like a super hub of like 500 or 600+ flights (like this was planned in late 80s and the precedent for building the new terminal at PIT), DL never planned CVG to be more than what it was at its height (like 300 flights).

However, DL also ran a broader international schedule from CVG to like Europe than US did from PIT. As far as pull down I haven't been at CVG in years so not best to answer but from what I gather DL and the city have done a good job of spreading the remaining flights within terminal B so its not as noticable as say PIT where there are two giant 25 gate each wings that are dark and empty.
 
flymia
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:09 pm

These abandoned hubs are sad but at the same time fascinating like abandoned shopping malls. STL with its extra runway and many unused gates and PIT are perfect examples. Airports that are nothing like they once were. Unfortunately CVG is heading to that path also. I see DL maintaining some presence but who knows, I also thought AA would keep some flights at STL look at them now there. I connected in CVG in February of 2002 FLL-CVG-BWI. It was a great airport, big spacious concourse and a very easy connection. Glad I got to see it during good times. I will say I have been interested in going to PIT and STL sometime to check out the "abandoned" airports.
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CIDFlyer
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 27):
PIT was a much larger hub for US than what CVG was for DL. Also US had planned to turn PIT into what DL has at ATL, like a super hub of like 500 or 600+ flights (like this was planned in late 80s and the precedent for building the new terminal at PIT), DL never planned CVG to be more than what it was at its height (like 300 flights). However, DL also ran a broader international schedule from CVG to like Europe than US did from PIT. As far as pull down I haven't been at CVG in years so not best to answer but from what I gather DL and the city have done a good job of spreading the remaining flights within terminal B so its not as noticable as say PIT where there are two giant 25 gate each wings that are dark and empty.

actually CVG was that big for DL there. I believe by 2004-2005 they had upwards of 600 flights. I know I have read that on here before, they definitely had more than 300 flights. ATL is a true mega hub at around 1,000 daily flights for DL, which makes it the largest airline hub in the world. AA at DFW is the next biggest with about 800 daily flights. Even US at CLT has over 600 daily flights.

Found an article which states DL once had 600 flights a day at CVG

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnat...g-flights-another-10.html?page=all
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
The list of ex-hubs that are pre-build for growth is getting pretty large:
CVG
STL
PIT
MEM
CLE

It's a little early to put cle on that list. United is still using cle.
Add RDU and COS to that list. Both former hubs with empty gates. MKE is officially no longer a hub for anyone so that will probably be a future member of this club.

I don't think it's really cvg fault. They are still getting payments from delta. CVG is just another medium sized city with nothing exceptional to offer and no acceptionally good future prospects. The airport should have pushed harder to get the lccs in cvg though but things looked so good and they wanted to keep delta happy. CVG incredibly high fares made the area airports attractive to the lccs so now unfortunately cvg is a ghost town as the lccs don't use it.

At least cvg is getting checks from delta for along time forward
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:14 am

Just as an FYI, CVG was originally set up as a reliever hub for ATL..........it eventually morphed into what it was at its peak......a full blown hub, international flights and all.
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
Cincinnati is easily the largest city not served by WN,

Wouldn't that honor go to Miami?

Quoting paneuropean (Reply 15):
Reasons why DL is dehubbing CVG are obvious, however leaving a state of the art terminal facility with a capacity of app 25 million pax. unused is something I don't understand. Jetblue comes to mind

B6 is never coming to CVG, they can barely make ORD work.
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 16):
it will be interesting to see if an upstart will move in, make it a foretress and grow from there (esp as tons of older A320s and 737NGs go on used market).

The issue is growing the business community at those ex-hubs. Too many of those cities are no longer 'pro-growth.' Unless I've missed something, they are going to have a tough time competing with Texas, Colorado, and Florida. I'm not saying they won't have growth, but they are not going to return to their former glory without fostering business to create O&D.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Not having service is not the same as not being willing to pay for service.

It quickly becomes one and the same...

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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:08 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 32):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):Cincinnati is easily the largest city not served by WN,
Quoting STT757 (Reply 32):

Wouldn't that honor go to Miami?

Not really because WN serves FLL, which technically serves the Miami metro area.
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:12 am

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 16):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):The list of ex-hubs that are pre-build for growth is getting pretty large:
CVG
STL
PIT
MEM
CLE
Indeed. What I wonder, looking like 10 years down the road is that all those cities sit at a weird cross roads when it comes to being a hub. They are not HUGE metro areas w/ tones of biz (as mentioned above) BUT they are not on smaller side like say DAY, SAT, AUS, MSY, etc either. Assuming there are 3 big airlines some day that are entrenched in the huge metro areas (ORD, DFW, IAH, NYC, ATL, etc) and w/ these airports good facilities it will be interesting to see if an upstart will move in, make it a foretress and grow from there (esp as tons of older A320s and 737NGs go on used market). If that is case it will bring the industry back to where it was, too much capacity yet I could see such a newer airline doing well esp if it joined an alliance as the biz travellers in those markets would probably be "over" switching at the hubs.

Good point. Given that, I wonder if anyone has heard anything new regarding the "new" PeoplExpress. If that's still supposed to get off the ground, that airline will have a large focus in at least one of those markets...

Is CLE now an ex-hub? I thought CO (now UA) still had a large operation there. I know that STL and MEM have pretty much gone by the wayside...
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 35):

Good point. Given that, I wonder if anyone has heard anything new regarding the "new" PeoplExpress. If that's still supposed to get off the ground, that airline will have a large focus in at least one of those markets...

Is CLE now an ex-hub? I thought CO (now UA) still had a large operation there. I know that STL and MEM have pretty much gone by the wayside...

CLE is still a hub, albeit smaller. MEM is still considered a hub by Delta, although they gradually keep axing cities here and there, but its still a hub. Heck even CVG is still a hub, just a small one though.
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
Too many of those cities are no longer 'pro-growth.'

Is there a correlation between general "pro-growth" policies and airline service, though? In Nashville, we've seen a number of recent large corporate relocations, and most companies have relocated from areas with much, much more air service (Nissan from Los Angeles County is a good example).
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 29):
Found an article which states DL once had 600 flights a day at CVG

Yep. There is also the departed flights webpage for CVG which shows nearly
600 flights in it's heyday -- http://www.departedflights.com/DLCVGhub.html
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 9):
Regarding Rwy 9/27, about six years ago there was a rumor coming out of OH that 27 was being extended to allow for Asian service! That always struck me as presumptuous at best, but it did make for a good laugh.

That is why it was extended. It's 12,000ft now and that's exactly why it was done.
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:31 am

The fact is, DL has too many hubs within 500 miles of CVG. So ATL and DTW win, MEM and CVG lose. Simple as that. With that said, I'm tired of CVG fliers complaining about having to make DTW and ATL connections. I've lived in a small market forever, and that's all I know (connections). So, welcome to the club.

That being said, I think the dark horse here is a combined US/AA. They may make a strong service point at CVG. I think mainline to a few of the combined US/AA hubs plus LGA (already on Eagle IIRC) would be the best thing for the market. WN/F9/B6 are not coming. CVG has become an anomaly for a city of its size, but won't correct itself quickly.

All of that being said, the entire ground/facilities *experience* of connection and O&D is oddly much more convenient now that it's diluted.

Quoting Noise (Reply 4):
What are they going to do with the rest of the airport/terminals? Aren't they going to have to decommission additional space? Will they consolidate all operations into one single terminal?

Terminal leases are holding things where they are. I think CVG will see more DL cuts when the leases are up.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
I can tell you that CVG is still very well served for a city it's size and that the local economy is doing just fine.

Agreed.

Quoting deltaffindfw (Reply 25):
As has been stated in many other threads, one of the main handcuffs CVG has is that they cannot offer special incentives to one new airline. If they offer those incentives, they must offer the same incentives to DL - per their lease agreements. There was a recent article in the Enquirer that stated one of the main objectives of the KCAB is to re-negotiate those leases in 2015

YEP!
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:02 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 30):
It's a little early to put cle on that list. United is still using cle.
Add RDU and COS to that list.

CLE is still in use, but not nearly at its peak. I flew through CLE back when it handled about 12 million passengers a year:
http://www.cleveland-cle.airports-guides.com/

So while the airport is doing better than I realized, it still has room for growth. But perhaps it should be in a different group.

Did COS have the facilities to be in the same group? I'm not aware of how much RDU has downsized, has it been significant? I apologize, that airport was just never on my "hubbing radar."

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 30):
MKE is officially no longer a hub for anyone so that will probably be a future member of this club.

To my knowledge, MKE never built up the level of facilities the other hubs did. e.g., the dark

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
Is there a correlation between general "pro-growth" policies and airline service, though?

It is a necessary condition for long term survival of a hub, but it is not sufficient. For example, I could see AUS becoming a hub, but not before 2025 or so. (Yea... so far in the future...)

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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 40):
Terminal leases are holding things where they are. I think CVG will see more DL cuts when the leases are up.
DL agreed to give up it's idle gates in the closed Concourse A in exchange for relief in it's lease payments. Concourse A is scheduled to re-open this summer after refurbishment and gate space/leases should not be an issue as there is plenty of space for the existing airlines plus any new entrants in Concourse A.


[Edited 2012-04-26 22:08:50]
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:17 am

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 40):
The fact is, DL has too many hubs within 500 miles of CVG. So ATL and DTW win, MEM and CVG lose

You know what's interesting though? DTW seems to be moving towards what CVG was in it's last big days - an RJ hub. More and more of the DL domestic service from DTW is moving to RJ service or just being cancelled altogether in favor of more flights to ATL. ATL is growing, DTW is shrinking. I wonder if DTW will eventually suffer the same fate that CVG and MEM have?
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 43):
I wonder if DTW will eventually suffer the same fate that CVG and MEM have?

I've wondered this too. I've wondered (and willing to be educated don't want to come off ignorant) what DTW has to offer seeing the city itself has been one of the hardest hit and had most difficulty recovering from the great recession. DTW has a large metro area but I have perception a lot of it is depressed and unemployed. MSP on the other hand has weathered the economic storm somewhat okay and has a lot of corporations. I've wondered if they may just pull down DTW years down road.
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:33 am

I think delta has kept up as much service as it has just because its paying for the facilities. Even if it isnt making money it could be the formula to loose as little as possible. Delta has to pay alot to CVG airport it only makes sense to use those gates and generate some cash to pay the airport. Its not like theres alot of competition at CVG either so i bet delta is making some good fares to pay the airport in the mean time.

At least with the other airlines moving to concourse A there is plenty of growth just in case, its much nicer, and the airport will feel less dead.

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 44):
. I've wondered (and willing to be educated don't want to come off ignorant) what DTW has to offer seeing the city itself has been one of the hardest hit and had most difficulty recovering from the great recession.

DTW still has great o&d numbers and tons of business traffic. The auto industry and corporate travel are still very strong at DTW. The city has major major problems no one can deny that but the airport as a delta hub is just fine. The burbs of DTW are not nearly as hard hit as the city center and i think most people who havnt been there recently have overly too dark of a picture the whole are has not been hit as hard as the downtown

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):
To my knowledge, MKE never built up the level of facilities the other hubs did. e.g., the dark

COS, RDU, and MKE are all former hubs and have more gates then they need. No they dont have as large a build of facilities but are all members of the club
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:13 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):

See my post above. Cincinnati is easily the largest city not served by WN,

While that's true, it still suffers from the stigma of having a strong, entrenched carrier. For that matter, it might be the largest market unserved, but it's not the gaping hole that ATL, BOS, DEN, etc. were when they finally picked up service on WN. The nearby WN markets that others have mentioned don't help CVG's case much either. With DL pulling down, I suspect WN will make a move at CVG (possibly at another market's expense), but I don't think it's coming just around the corner...

Quoting michman (Reply 38):
Yep. There is also the departed flights webpage for CVG which shows nearly
600 flights in it's heyday -- http://www.departedflights.com/DLCVGhub.html

June '04 was the only time I flew through CVG (routing PIT-CVG-SEA) and I remember being impressed by the size of DL's operation there and by the spaciousness of the terminals/available amenities. Definitely a pleasant connecting experience. We left in the evening bank of departures that included a couple of 772s to Europe and a nice mix of mainline/regional domestic flights. Sad to see CVG suffering now that DTW is DL, but I think most of us saw it coming.
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 46):
June '04 was the only time I flew through CVG (routing PIT-CVG-SEA) and I remember being impressed by the size of DL's operation there and by the spaciousness of the terminals/available amenities. Definitely a pleasant connecting experience

CVG is still a great facililty and delta still connnects a good amount of people thru there. Concourse B is still just a great place to connect thru. Its just sad how small it is compared to what it was. I still choose CVG as a connection if the opportunity arises but its happening less and less when i book.

CVG unfortunitely has no need though every single passenger who connects thru there could go thru somewhere else. CVG lost its last solo destination huntington wv a while ago. It must have had some good o&d since they kept that solo destination that other delta hub had service too for a while. MEM does have more of a place in the network and there are unique destinations and routes that ATL is really far out of the way heading west that MEM is needed if they want those markets. If delta totally ramps down MEM there will be network things to work but CVG is sadly all redundant.
 
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):
Did COS have the facilities to be in the same group?

WestPac at its peak only had about 70 flights/day (incl. MAX) IIRC
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RE: The Rise Or Fall Of Cincinnati

Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 46):

While that's true, it still suffers from the stigma of having a strong, entrenched carrier.

I believed that too until the number of seats on DAY-BWI surpassed seats available on CVG-BWI which is down to just about 3 daily CRJs. CHI from CVG is as competitive a market as it is from CMH and IND which WN makes work, so at the least I think CVG could easily absorb WN's DAY schedule.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 46):
The nearby WN markets that others have mentioned don't help CVG's case much either.

People were saying this before they merged with FL, but then WN essentially added DAY to their network which kind of killed the notion that WN would serve the Ohio River Valley area from IND, CMH, and SDF. WN service may not be imminent, but I think once WN and FL are more integrated we will see their operation move from DAY to CVG for number of reasons, chiefly that CVG is a much larger, more economically healthy market.

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