757gb
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Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:40 pm

Aerolineas Argentinas and Austral have received subsidies for the equivalent of 200 million US dollars for the first quarter of 2012. This is 52% higher than the subsidies received for the same period in 2011. As per the original budget plan the subsidies were estimated to be 20% LESS this year, so obviously the plan is not working out as expected.

Here is a link to the information (in Spanish only for now, I'll post one in English as soon as I find one):

http://www.ieco.clarin.com/economia/...olineas-subsidios_0_687531287.html

I'd be interested to know the reasons for this. Fleet renewal is ongoing, but I thought the original budget allowed for that.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting 757gb (Thread starter):
I'd be interested to know the reasons for this.

Very Easy. The list ( not precisely in order of relevance ) could be something like this :
-Generalized Corruption
-La Cámpora
-Mariano Recalde
-Cristina F. de Kirchner
-Marsans Administration
-Wrong decisions regarding AR routes
-Bad AR service
-Bad AR image
-Presence of LAN Argentina

Probably there are some more and I'm forgetting now....

Flaming from our Argentinian members in 5...4...3...2...1...

G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
757gb
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 1):

Yes, I'm well aware of many of the factors you list. I guess I stated my question poorly. I'm curious to find out what excuses will be given for this performance... volcanoes are not active this time around right?
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:10 pm

It's just insane. When I was there in 2010 the prices for internal flights on AA were pretty steep compared to similar distances in other countries - yet they still are not profitable.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:51 pm

The economic policies set up by the current Argentine administration are simply unsustainable. Add in the high cost of fuel and diminishing purchasing power of the consumer and you have a recipe for a business disaster.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting 757gb (Thread starter):
Aerolineas Argentinas and Austral have received subsidies for the equivalent of 200 million US dollars for the first quarter of 2012.

AR has so much to show for those subsidies, like a new color scheme, and fortunately Argentinians have no better use for those $200MM .

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 1):
-Cristina F. de Kirchner

They voted for her, so I'm not sure what else one can do
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
757gb
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:09 pm

In my opinion, there are cultural aspects in these countries (some more than others) that conspire to make normal something that should be outrageous. As a taxpayer I've complained long and hard in local forums as far as the lack of clarity that Pluna shows on their numbers. The reason why I complain is because Pluna acts as a private company but the Uruguayan government owns part of it and has been the guarantor of the initial CRJ buy. But people here don't seem to care all that much about where their tax money goes. And the money lost in PU (which continues to lose money), is insignificant compared to AR's numbers. As great a country as Argentina is, I just don't see how this model can last financially. That many taxpayers accept it as normal is just mind boggling.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
sciurusmdg
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:08 am

The good news is with the expropriation of YPF, fuel costs for Aerolineas will be going down, which no doubt this government will celebrate as a great victory both for YPF and Aerolineas. Heck, they've even put the former strategic head of Aerolineas in as the new strategic head of YPF!

Sadly, the road is running out for this type of ridiculous Argentine economic strategy, and the whole show is coming crashing to the ground... Its a shame, as Argentine pilots are some of the best, and a thoroughly nice bunch.
 
AR385
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting sciurusmdg (Reply 7):
The good news is with the expropriation of YPF, fuel costs for Aerolineas will be going down, which no doubt this government will celebrate as a great victory both for YPF and Aerolineas.

Unless you are being facetitious, I don´t see how is that possible. I thought Argentina has a serious deficit in Hydrocarbon production and winter is coming. I´m not sure how much refining capacity they have for Av Fuel, but it sure ain´t much. At the same time they want to keep their precious dollars at home, so that means no more oil purchasing abroad.

Besides, can they charge the home carrier fuel at different prices than to the international ones? Sure, anything is possible in Cristinalandia but still, I would think that is illegal.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 1):
Very Easy. The list ( not precisely in order of relevance ) could be something like this :
-Generalized Corruption
-La Cámpora
-Mariano Recalde
-Cristina F. de Kirchner
-Marsans Administration
-Wrong decisions regarding AR routes
-Bad AR service
-Bad AR image
-Presence of LAN Argentina

Probably there are some more and I'm forgetting now....

Flaming from our Argentinian members in 5...4...3...2...1...

Seriously, this obsession of yours is getting quite tiresome. It would be interesting to see if you have anything constructive to contribute to the discussion.
 
sciurusmdg
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:03 am

A general rule with CFK etc. is that the law doesn't apply , I could tediously list examples of both national and international laws broken by them, but there are too many to pick from, Including the current scandal with Bodou.

As for refining capacities, it wasn't a thought out statement, more of a jibe at popularist government who will spin anything to go there way

However I would think that a situation will arrise soon where they do lower the fuel costs from YPF to AR and then use it as a demonstration of Argentina helping Argentina and what a nationalistic success!
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:08 am

I thought I read over on Flyertalk that LAN is restricted from flying certain routes within Argentina. Is this true, and can someone elaborate on this and other advantages given to AR? Given AR's reliability issues and subpar product, I'm surprised LAN hasn't been able to bury AR.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 6):
And the money lost in PU (which continues to lose money), is insignificant compared to AR's numbers.

I know that Uruguay is a small country, but I've always wondered why PU lacks routes from MVD to other parts of the country.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
sciurusmdg
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 10):
thought I read over on Flyertalk that LAN is restricted from flying certain routes within Argentina. Is this true, and can someone elaborate on this and other advantages given to AR?

Here's a good article on it: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1434084-p...stinos-regionales-desde-aeroparque (Google Translation of it isn't too bad to do).
 
SCL767
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 10):
I thought I read over on Flyertalk that LAN is restricted from flying certain routes within Argentina.

This is really nothing new. Recently, LAN Argentina was forced to transfer the twice daily AEP-GRU service over to EZE. LAN also wanted to transfer another B-767-316ER over to LAN Argentina and the Argentine ANAC denied that request and refused to register the a/c.
 
SCL767
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 10):
I thought I read over on Flyertalk that LAN is restricted from flying certain routes within Argentina.

It's not really the domestic routes with-in Argentina that's a major issue. For example, LAN Argentina recently increased frequency on certain domestic routes, i.e. 4M now operates AEP-SLA 3x daily, AEP-TUC increases to 16x weekly, etc. Also, 4M will soon increase frequency on other routes, i.e. AEP-BRC will operate 23x weekly, AEP-COR will operate 30x weekly, AEP-NQN will operate 20x weekly, etc. LAN Argentina was forced to discontinue its daily AEP-SCL service; however LAN Airlines responded by increasing frequency on the SCL-AEP route to 3x daily; thus LAN still offers regional flights from AEP. Also, LAN Airlines will soon increase frequency on the SCL-COR route to 2x daily.
 
757gb
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:30 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 10):
I know that Uruguay is a small country, but I've always wondered why PU lacks routes from MVD to other parts of the country.

Simply put, there is no business case. BQB now operates some domestic flights with ATR-72s. The idea is also to connect smaller cities with Argentina and Brazil as well. Prior to that there were a couple operators using Cessna Caravans running regular services. Distances are short, there are no mountains or any geographical impediment to travel by road, and as a result the infrastructure never developed much. In fact as I understand it BQB has invested in some of the airports to be able to operate from them. OTOH, Pluna accuses BQB of being subsidized by the very successful naval operation by Buquebus (BQB's mother company). Many have speculated that BQB's strategy is to run Pluna to the ground and eventually acquire it or take over the routes.

But to answer your question, it would be very difficult for Pluna to operate profitably within Uruguay, at least with the present fleet. There was a rumor once about acquiring Q400 aircraft and running domestic flights, but that's all it was: a rumor.

Regards,
GB
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
jfk777
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:21 am

What is the profitability of AR's long haul flights to Australia, Miami, Madrid, Rome and Barcelona ? Loose tons ?
 
timpdx
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:10 am

Well, I'm in Argentina presenlty , and don't know how LAN can legitimately charge Gringos so much more for the same exact ticket. its unethical, IMO, so kudos to AR to subsidizing their fares so that ripoff LAN doesn't get away with their BS foreigner fares. Been all over the would and never seen the kind of doublespeak crap as here in South America.
 
sciurusmdg
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:53 am

Quoting timpdx (Reply 16):
kudos to AR to subsidizing their fares so that ripoff LAN doesn't get away with their BS foreigner fares.

FYI, Aerolineas' subsidized fares are only available to residents of Argentina holding a current DNI... NOT for foreigners.

LAN, are only trying to keep up with AR with their fares, or else they wouldn't be competitive at all!
 
AR385
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:08 am

Quoting timpdx (Reply 16):
Been all over the would and never seen the kind of doublespeak crap as here in South America.

Should have informed yourself better then. I´m with you, but, you should have known that beforehand. Also, FYI, it not only happens on airfares. There´s a whole list of services, mostly related to tourism and business travel that can legitimately charge different prices for foreigners than the ones they charge for locals.

South America also has 12 more countries, so, you should not generalize. It´s just four that are the crazy ones.
 
sciurusmdg
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:36 am

Whatever your views on it may be... Aerolineas is a national airline, owned by the state and supported by the Argentine taxpayer, therefore it stands to reason and is quite fair that foreigners have to pay a larger fare.
 
jfk777
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting sciurusmdg (Reply 19):
Whatever your views on it may be... Aerolineas is a national airline, owned by the state and supported by the Argentine taxpayer, therefore it stands to reason and is quite fair that foreigners have to pay a larger fare.

There was a time that most of the world's airline were state owned and subsidized in the name of "economic development" but those day ended 30 years ago when most European airline were sold off. Argentina needs to stop living in the 20th century and join the 21st. Flying A340's 6000 miles half empty at low fares and having too many employees is no way to run an airline.
 
hinckley
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting sciurusmdg (Reply 19):
Whatever your views on it may be... Aerolineas is a national airline, owned by the state and supported by the Argentine taxpayer, therefore it stands to reason and is quite fair that foreigners have to pay a larger fare.

. . . and that is why what should be the great and rich country of Argentina has been raped by Peron, the generals and now the Kirchners. You can chose to live in the global economy that is fact, or retreat into some sort of backward banana republic. But I suppose the Argentine public has made that decision. Time to invade some little island somewhere . . .

[Edited 2012-04-29 11:42:23]

[Edited 2012-04-29 12:11:50]
 
sciurusmdg
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:50 pm

Speaking as a non-Argentine, that lives in Argentina, I also feel that the situation is ridiculous with the govt. However, my point wasn't to discuss if nationalisation was a good or a bad thing, but to explain WHY their is a fare difference, and how- since I have to pay tax that in part goes to the airline, I would feel pretty aggrieved if I wasn't given a lower price than a non tax paying tourist...
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Aerolineas Argentinas - USD200M In Subsidies (1Q)

Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting 757gb (Reply 14):
it would be very difficult for Pluna to operate profitably within Uruguay, at least with the present fleet.

From my perspective from abroad, the CRJ-900 fleet doesn't seem to fit their domestic operations within Uruguay.
Correct if I'm wrong, but I think PDP is the second station in Uruguay, in terms of the demand of passengers. However, I'm not implying the existence of any PU MVD-PDP with CRJ-900s. Buses departing from Tres Cruces Station stopped in the airport on the way to Maldonado/Punta del Este on a journey of less than two hours, in average.
Perhaps it would be more successful the launch of additional international flights and frequencies from other airports in Uruguay, besides MVD.
Both PU PDP-AEP and PU PDP-GRU are in service and they're good examples.




.

Quoting 757gb (Thread starter):
Aerolineas Argentinas and Austral have received subsidies for the equivalent of 200 million US dollars for the first quarter of 2012.

I see some progress in the operations supplied by Aerolineas Argentinas, based on the announced routes for the second part of the year: AR EZE-IGR, AR EZE-BRC-FTE-AEP [seasonal], AR EZE-TUC and so on.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"