masseybrown
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UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:28 am

http://business-news.thestreet.com/d...-seeking-reduce-leased-space-dia/1

This doesn't say how big a reduction of leased space they're talking about - it could be just the old CO gates in A if they are still under lease.

[Edited 2012-04-28 22:29:34]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:29 am

It's not necessarily indicative of any cutbacks, if that's what you're thinking; many carriers are working on ways to improve turn times and scheduling to increase their gate utilization, meaning they can potentially run the same schedule with fewer gates, meaning less real estate cost.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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IndianicWorld
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:46 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 1):
It's not necessarily indicative of any cutbacks, if that's what you're thinking; many carriers are working on ways to improve turn times and scheduling to increase their gate utilization, meaning they can potentially run the same schedule with fewer gates, meaning less real estate cost.

Smart move too. Some airlines seem to run very inefficient schedules which do not maximise the facilities that are leased. In a business like this, every dollar now counts.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:14 am

I can see it biting them in the butt during a blizzard, though. With the three-hour rule in place, having some extra gates at DEN might help avoid a debacle.
-Doc Lightning-

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Byrdluvs747
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:40 am

F9 had better jump on them whether the gates are in A or B. They should approach DEN and ask if they could assume the gate leases.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
USAIRWAYS321
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:47 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):
Smart move too. Some airlines seem to run very inefficient schedules which do not maximise the facilities that are leased. In a business like this, every dollar now counts.

Often, though, airlines will sit on more gates than needed to prevent competitors from gaining share at that airport. Avoiding competition is sometimes worth that financial hit for the real estate.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:50 am

Quoting USAIRWAYS321 (Reply 5):
Often, though, airlines will sit on more gates than needed to prevent competitors from gaining share at that airport. Avoiding competition is sometimes worth that financial hit for the real estate.

True, but sometimes the costs are too high to sustain, which actually makes things uncompetitive against existing competition.

Theres always a point a decision needs to be made.
 
BlueF9A320
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:00 pm

UA should just walk away already. They're only half-heartedly committed to hubbing at DEN anyway. And now they can justify it as "merger rationalisation".
Audentes Fortuna Juvat...
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I can see it biting them in the butt during a blizzard, though. With the three-hour rule in place, having some extra gates at DEN might help avoid a debacle.

Actually I think the airport has the responsibility to facilitate using extra gates in that situation. Or use buses.
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codc10
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:30 pm

Could also be superfluous counter space, offices, bag rooms, etc., not necessarily gates.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 9):
Could also be superfluous counter space, offices, bag rooms, etc., not necessarily gates

Exactly, I think people are kind of jumping the gun here a little.
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joeljack
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:03 pm

In my opinion, UA has lots of extra ticket counter space they are not using they could remove. In addition, they have about 6-10 extra gates in concourse B they don't need. I was hoping to see an increase in DEN service with addition of all the new 737's. DEN lends itself well to larger airplanes. DEN is not a 50-seat high yield regional market. Yes 50-seats work to the smaller destinations from DEN but larger planes lower CASM. Skiers and vacationers to Colorado won't pay $1,000 for a plane ticket. But they aren't the bottom dwellers either that go to Florida on a $200 tickets. Skiing is expensive so it lends itself to a higher fare vacation market.

For example, I went over President's day and we all paid over $350 for our plane tickets from MSP and OMA. (there were 11 of us). At this yield, an airline won't make money with a 50-seater but with a 737, they will do just fine and then some!

If UA wants to make DEN work, they need to remove many of the RJ's to places with populations larger than a Million. This would require more mainline gates again but still might have 3-4 extra gates even after an uptick in mainline.

In addition, if UA was VERY serious about making DEN work, remove additional fees for bikes to DEN and advertise it! This would bring a huge influx of passengers in the summer! Bikes are very light and cargo holds are very rarely limited by space but instead limited by weight! My bike in a case weighs about 35 pounds. As a UA Gold, I fly Frontier when traveling with my bike because they don't charge a fee. UA would get this business, even if the ticket was $400 on UA OMA-DEN, I would still be loyal. This is a good yield! 42 cents per mile!

Right now, the cheapest fares from places like OMA/MCI to the west coast are all through IAH. This is very expensive for UA to accommodate! These passengers should be moved back to connect in DEN at the fares they currently charge though IAH. This it how it used to be before UA changed most mainline to RJ's on the OMA/MCI-DEN markets about a year ago. This would be a significant cost reduction in getting passengers from traditionally PMUA strong markets in middle america to the west cost. This is where the new UA management has failed miserably in my opinion. Tell me again how it is an advantage to connect the UA fliers going from middle america to the west coast in IAH vs DEN? Bad for the airline and bad for the passenger. Just makes zero sense!
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting BlueF9A320 (Reply 7):

Oh God -- Not this again....

People DEN isn't going anywhere for United. You can't jump to the conclusion that UA want to give up gate space from a brief article like this one.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
irelayer
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):
Smart move too. Some airlines seem to run very inefficient schedules which do not maximise the facilities that are leased. In a business like this, every dollar now counts.

Sorry I have to call you out on this. Now counts? Every dollar has counted for a while. I think we all forget that in the US airlines are a loss making business. When they make profits the margins are thin.

-IR
 
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drerx7
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):
This is very expensive for UA to accommodate! These passengers should be moved back to connect in DEN at the fares they currently charge though IAH.

I fail to see the logic here? The O&D fares they charge for IAH are regoddamndiculous.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
joeljack
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 14):
I fail to see the logic here? The O&D fares they charge for IAH are regoddamndiculous.

I guess I've never had a reason to go to Houston other than to connect. They compete with WN on many markets so they can't be that bad!??? I guess that depends on your definition of "regoddamndiculous" Delta was charging upwards of a grand on OMA-ATL...now in my mind this fits that category!! They have now reduced fares and hence demand is through the roof. Fares are now $350-$400 with advanced purchase...reasonable...or 20 to 25 cents per mile....nice yield still.

I looked up OMA-IAH a couple of random days in May and the fares are $350....also reasonable. I did look a couple of days in June and the fares are $498...that's too much. If I had to go to IAH, I would change my dates, wait or not fly.

I purchase based off of yield. 20 cents per mile for domestic, reasonable and I buy. UA can make a profit off of this fare, happy airline and happy customer. $498 = 31 cents per mile...that's just too much and feel like I'm being ripped off so would refuse to buy that. 31 cents per mile = mad customer and I don't fly.

BTW...Just bought a DSM-SNA roundtrip for less than $250...going through IAH. The fares through DEN were twice!! UA could have got me to SNA much cheaper through DEN, instead they send me through IAH, way out of the way!! Just doesn't make sense.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):
I was hoping to see an increase in DEN service with addition of all the new 737's.

Despite the new 737-900ERs, the mainline fleet size is shrinking, not growing. According to the Q1 2012 report, the mainline fleet size was reduced by 12 aircraft (the UA regional fleet increased by 17). Expect more 737-500s and PMUA 757s to be retired.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
codc10
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 15):

BTW...Just bought a DSM-SNA roundtrip for less than $250...going through IAH. The fares through DEN were twice!! UA could have got me to SNA much cheaper through DEN, instead they send me through IAH, way out of the way!! Just doesn't make sense.

UA's new revenue management system was only introduced last month, over time it should, in theory, price more better routings more favorably.
 
EricR
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):
If UA wants to make DEN work, they need to remove many of the RJ's to places with populations larger than a Million. This would require more mainline gates again but still might have 3-4 extra gates even after an uptick in mainline.
Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):
Right now, the cheapest fares from places like OMA/MCI to the west coast are all through IAH. This is very expensive for UA to accommodate! These passengers should be moved back to connect in DEN at the fares they currently charge though IAH. This it how it used to be before UA changed most mainline to RJ's on the OMA/MCI-DEN markets about a year ago. This would be a significant cost reduction in getting passengers from traditionally PMUA strong markets in middle america to the west cost. This is where the new UA management has failed miserably in my opinion. Tell me again how it is an advantage to connect the UA fliers going from middle america to the west coast in IAH vs DEN? Bad for the airline and bad for the passenger. Just makes zero sense!

I said this about a year ago and I'll say it again. The DEN hub under the new UA/CO will look nothing like the DEN hub was under UA.

The new UA/CO now has IAH & ORD to handle east-west connections. Furthermore, UA's market share in many mid-continent cities, such as MCI or OMA which historically used DEN as a connecting point, is now greatly overshadowed by WN. This loss of share in mid-continent cities as well as DEN itself means that mainline jets are too much capacity on many routes that used to be exclusively mainline.

The reason why connections via DEN to the west coast are more expensive than via IAH is because flights via DEN are increasingly intended for those whose final destinations are to smaller Rocky Mountain / Great Plains cities not directly served via IAH and/or ORD.

The only value DEN will serve under the new UA is to support flights to smaller Rocky Mountain / Great Plains cities where LCCs do not have the appropriate sized aircraft to fly into. DEN will become to UA what SLC is to DL.
 
boilerla
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:04 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 18):
The new UA/CO now has IAH & ORD to handle east-west connections. Furthermore, UA's market share in many mid-continent cities, such as MCI or OMA which historically used DEN as a connecting point, is now greatly overshadowed by WN. This loss of share in mid-continent cities as well as DEN itself means that mainline jets are too much capacity on many routes that used to be exclusively mainline.

IAH is situated very poorly for connections. DEN is needed for pretty much anybody originating & connecting within the western United States, so unless UA wants to give up on big cities like LAX, PDX, SEA, they need DEN.

Not to mention that DEN is still one of the strongest O&D markets in the US.

Consider this (summer 2011):
UA mainline departures out of LAX: 115
UA total departures out of LAX: 235
UA mainline departures out of DEN: 164
UA total departures out of DEN: 454

There's been a slow drawdown of LAX with more routes moving to SFO, causing LAX to shrink even more in summer 2012. DEN is looking to be flat. LAX is even more competitive than DEN, and it's likely it's not hugely profitable considering the 3 terminals that UA operates out of there. Which is more likely to get pulled down?
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:26 am

I am not writing this from denver right now. I was just in the airport yesterday and was thinking how much extra space united has. Concourse be is pretty large and I bet united could slim down quite a few gates and move flight times around to save a good amount of money. The check in space is massive also. It's not like ua has anything to protect in denver southwest and frontier have fully committed to denver and have ffs, gates, and space. It's simply by too late to protect denver those carriers might be more commuted to denver than united is they mine as well try to make denver as efficient and lean as possible for connections.

I personally think the three hub setup is totally unsustainable very long term. I'm guessing frontier will be the one to end it though very long term. Den certainly has a different role in the new ua system. Different is the key word but it still has a unique role but I could certainly see more continued seat number reductions as we've seen. Widebodies could be totally gone for ua at denver not that unlikely that except maybe a seasonal 767 to HNL. They are headed that direction.
 
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drerx7
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting joeljack (Reply 15):
hey compete with WN on many markets so they can't be that bad!??? I guess that depends on your definition of "regoddamndiculous" Delta was charging upwards of a grand on OMA-ATL...now in my mind this fits that category!! They have now reduced fares and hence demand is through the roof. Fares are now $350-$400 with advanced purchase...reasonable...or 20 to 25 cents per mile....nice yield still.

WN is not the cheapest either and even with WN over at HOU UA still commands insane fares. I was just quoted $500 r/t IAH-LAS for random dates in July...AUS-IAH-LAS is significantly lower. We won't even talk about UA international out of IAH...
As of last year IAH was the airport with the highest airfares in the country...10 years ago it wasn't even on any list.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:20 am

DEN is a super strong o& d market no question. It easily strong enough for two hubs. The thing to consider is that it's a THREE hub airport. Also with MKE no longer at hub status its the lowest airfare hub in the country.

DEN role is more to connect the intermountain cities which command high fares and less LCC competition. Cities like sea, PDX, lax etc can be routed to almost anywhere thru iah, ord, sfo, PHX, ord lax actually. ASE for example is an actual gold mine for United on connecting fares much like jac and sun are gold mines for delta thru SLC.
 
n7371f
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:20 am

Anyone else wondering if this request involves the Continental hangar?
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 23):
Anyone else wondering if this request involves the Continental hangar?



I was going to say it earlier but didn't..........I would not be surprised if this is in fact part of the discussion.
American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting irelayer (Reply 13):
I think we all forget that in the US airlines are a loss making business. When they make profits the margins are thin.

Maybe you hadn't noticed, but that generalization doesn't hold much water anymore. In fact, both AS and DL have posted ROIC north of 10% each in the trailing 12 months.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
irelayer
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:11 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 25):
Maybe you hadn't noticed, but that generalization doesn't hold much water anymore. In fact, both AS and DL have posted ROIC north of 10% each in the trailing 12 months.

You mean this:

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/s...1-profit-on-fuel-hedges/54521104/1

?

Maybe Delta Airlines should convert itself to a financial company if that's the only way it can make money.

As for AS, WN, and the like, I never said there weren't exeptions. Generally though, airlines in the US make razor thin profits relative to other enterprises, and that's in the best of times.

-IR
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):
Maybe Delta Airlines should convert itself to a financial company if that's the only way it can make money.

And using that argument, maybe Southwest Airlines should sell their aircraft since they've essentially been an oil-futures trading company for the past decade that just happens to fly planes on the side.

Quoting irelayer (Reply 26):
Generally though, airlines in the US make razor thin profits relative to other enterprises, and that's in the best of times.

In the past, yes. Again, carriers are changing their views though; RM departments are moving away from the tradition of flying money-losing routes and calling them "strategic", moving capacity out of markets that can't support themselves. While the airlines will never have profit margins like the 40-50% seen by the likes of the financial sector or pharmaceuticals, you cannot deny they're fixing their profit model considerably.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 27):
While the airlines will never have profit margins like the 40-50% seen by the likes of the financial sector or pharmaceuticals, you cannot deny they're fixing their profit model considerably.

You're correct to a large degree on the revenue side of the equation. However, many of the carriers are still enjoying post-BK costs that will not last.

Keep in mind, there have been brief periods where carriers have had similar margins to what DL/AS reported this past year. In the late 90's many of the carriers had margins that good for a few years.

Times have changed because of consolidation and tight capacity control, but costs will rise.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):
In addition, they have about 6-10 extra gates in concourse B they don't need.

They don't have any gates to give up. The summer schedule is JAMMED, there is no room for expansion on the 10am bank at DEN, every gate is working.
 
AADC10
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:17 pm

I doubt this means anything for the Concourse B gates. UA unloaded some leased back office and operational space at DEN during Ch. 11 and they may be looking to get rid of even more since mainline operations have shrunk considerably. Some check in space may go. The early check in stations that they had when DEN opened were interesting and took a lot of space but since the automated baggage system failed, they are long gone, replaced with a standard check in counter.
 
EricR
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 12:14 am

Quoting boilerla (Reply 19):
IAH is situated very poorly for connections. DEN is needed for pretty much anybody originating & connecting within the western United States, so unless UA wants to give up on big cities like LAX, PDX, SEA, they need DEN.

Not to mention that DEN is still one of the strongest O&D markets in the US.

Consider this (summer 2011):
UA mainline departures out of LAX: 115
UA total departures out of LAX: 235
UA mainline departures out of DEN: 164
UA total departures out of DEN: 454

There's been a slow drawdown of LAX with more routes moving to SFO, causing LAX to shrink even more in summer 2012. DEN is looking to be flat. LAX is even more competitive than DEN, and it's likely it's not hugely profitable considering the 3 terminals that UA operates out of there. Which is more likely to get pulled down?



Well I am not really comparing LAX to DEN, but I think DEN will see a larger net decrease in mainline flights than LAX(though on a percentage basis LAX may see a larger cut).

Keep in mind that I am not saying that DEN will close as a hub. It will just look more like DL's hub @ SLC (lots of RJs serving smaller Rocky Mountain / Great Plains cities).

The addition of IAH to the UA network means that DEN's role has essentially been reduced to connecting the west to the Great Plains. Anything east of the Great Plains would use ORD, IAH, EWR, IAD as connecting points.

The Great Plains region is not heavily populated and the market share leader in this area is WN (DL in the Upper Great Plains). Travelers in this area are more likely to use WN (or DL) to western destinations rather than UA. Therefore, UA mainline is no longer needed to serve this area like they once did.

Also, many of the south & southeast bound mainline flights (capacity) will be moved from DEN to IAH. In fact, this is the one area to pay special attention to. I think you will start to see UA discontinue routes or frequencies from DEN to the south/southeast in the near future.

DEN will still serve an important role. However, its role will be reduced to a regional hub supporting mostly smaller communities in the Rocky Mountain region.
 
codc10
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 31):
However, its role will be reduced to a regional hub supporting mostly smaller communities in the Rocky Mountain region.

...which is probably the highest-yielding segment of the DEN hub.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 14):
I fail to see the logic here? The O&D fares they charge for IAH are regoddamndiculous.
Quoting EricR (Reply 18):
The new UA/CO now has IAH & ORD to handle east-west connections.

IAH is, conservatively, 3 hours out of the way for the vast majority of the population of this country.

NS
 
dbo861
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 5:32 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 4):

F9 had better jump on them whether the gates are in A or B. They should approach DEN and ask if they could assume the gate leases.

Forgive me, I'm not very familiar with F9's current situation in DEN. Are they hurting for gate space at DEN?
 
EricR
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 33):

Yet IAH was the largest hub for CO and remains a mega hub under UA. Not one single hub for any U.S. based airline is positioned in such a location as to connect the majority of the U.S. population. Hence the reason why airlines have multiple hubs.
 
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ADent
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 5:47 am

I think WN could be interested in some gate space - somewhere to get Delta to move to so WN can take over the whole C Concourse.

Of course with fuel prices they way they are and the cluster*** the the FL merger is turning out to be, maybe they aren't interested in expanding more in DEN.
 
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drerx7
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 33):
IAH is, conservatively, 3 hours out of the way for the vast majority of the population of this country.

Well, regardless of that fact UA is shifting capacity there from DEN primarily. I was referring to the other posters reasoning in his statement...you quoted me slightly out of context.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 32):
...which is probably the highest-yielding segment of the DEN hub.

Probably some of the highest yielding traffic in the nation to boot.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 35):
Yet IAH was the largest hub for CO and remains a mega hub under UA. Not one single hub for any U.S. based airline is positioned in such a location as to connect the majority of the U.S. population. Hence the reason why airlines have multiple hubs.

Yes it remains the largest, mainly for Latin/South America and Mexico connections. Also it was revealed recently in another thread that ORD is treading on IAH in terms of daily flights. IAH remained strong with CO because EWR and IAH were their only major hubs. Since the merger they can rely both on DEN and IAH for their own strengths. But for connecting to the mountain west or even the west coast from the midwest and east coast, IAH isn't optimal at all.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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drerx7
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 39):
Also it was revealed recently in another thread that ORD is treading on IAH in terms of daily flights.

Yea, that thread though had stats that were from August 2011. Granted ORD and IAH will probably see-saw #1-#2 year to year, I would like to see current stats with the full complement of cross-fleeting going on. IAH has a lot of 757/Airbus/CR7 flights now as opposed to a year ago.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 39):
Since the merger they can rely both on DEN and IAH for their own strengths. But for connecting to the mountain west or even the west coast from the midwest and east coast, IAH isn't optimal at all.

Nobody is arguing that. The fact remains that DEN is being reduced in favor of IAH, even though mountain west yields are high, the overall yields at IAH are arguably higher. Most east-west capacity will be shifted via IAH and ORD now.
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ScottB
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 33):
IAH is, conservatively, 3 hours out of the way for the vast majority of the population of this country.

Like drama much? On a route like NYC-LAX, IAH is 30-45 minutes' total flying time out of the way compared to a connection at ORD or DEN. And the hub at DEN isn't needed for that route, as the connection at ORD is just as efficient. For MIA-SFO, IAH offers a more direct routing than DEN. IAH is well-situated for connections to & from Texas and the states surrounding it, which contain 40 million inhabitants.

Quoting EricR (Reply 31):
The addition of IAH to the UA network means that DEN's role has essentially been reduced to connecting the west to the Great Plains. Anything east of the Great Plains would use ORD, IAH, EWR, IAD as connecting points.

   The number of markets in the enlarged UA network for which DEN is the only desirable connecting hub has been greatly reduced. Moreover, these are virtually all domestic routes, and UA has been shifting its focus away from the hyper-competitive domestic market.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 39):
for connecting to the mountain west or even the west coast from the midwest and east coast, IAH isn't optimal at all.

But the mountain west is extremely sparsely populated, and most connections from the west coast to the midwest and east coast can be funneled over ORD, IAD, & EWR. IAH is very well-situated for connections from the west coast to the southeast, and the southeast is one of the nation's more populous regions.

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 29):
They don't have any gates to give up. The summer schedule is JAMMED, there is no room for expansion on the 10am bank at DEN, every gate is working.

And yet renting several gates which are only needed for a single bank during part of the year is probably a waste of money. If they can get the City to take the gates back and pay for the gates per-use, UA would likely save money. It's extremely unlikely that any competitor will want gates out at one end or the other of the B concourse.

Quoting ADent (Reply 36):
I think WN could be interested in some gate space - somewhere to get Delta to move to so WN can take over the whole C Concourse.

Delta has pretty prime real estate on the C Concourse, though, with all their gates clustered next to the train station. I think DL would want gates that were similarly situated on B.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):
Nobody is arguing that. The fact remains that DEN is being reduced in favor of IAH, even though mountain west yields are high, the overall yields at IAH are arguably higher. Most east-west capacity will be shifted via IAH and ORD now.

Every time I see one of the OAG threads, I don't see many adds at all to IAH -- if anything, cuts here and there. The only airports with major gains since the merger have been SFO and EWR.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 41):
But the mountain west is extremely sparsely populated, and most connections from the west coast to the midwest and east coast can be funneled over ORD, IAD, & EWR. IAH is very well-situated for connections from the west coast to the southeast, and the southeast is one of the nation's more populous regions.

Sparse populations doesn't matter. It's all about yields. Jackson Hole might be sparely populated but if they can fill an A320 up to capacity with high fares to Denver, it works.
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drerx7
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 41):
IAH is well-situated for connections to & from Texas and the states surrounding it, which contain 40 million inhabitants.

And the fastest growing cities in the nation.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 42):
Every time I see one of the OAG threads, I don't see many adds at all to IAH -- if anything, cuts here and there. The only airports with major gains since the merger have been SFO and EWR.

Lol, that OAG thread is full of so many inaccuracies with regard to UA/CO. I appreciate the efforts placed to compile the list, but it is far far from accurate. It also omits gauge. IAH has had more additions in the past 2 years than what CO has done in the past 10. Lagos, Jackson Hole, Reno, Bakersfield, Aspen, Hobbs, Montreal, 767s to LIM & SFO, CR7s everywhere in lieu of ERJs, 757s to SAN/PHL/LGA/MCO/MSY/LAS/BOS/DCA/IAD/TPA/SEA/PDX/BWI/LAX, 319s and 320s backfilling for 735/73Gs with the 757s backfilling for the 738s and the few 739s going to ORD etc. The OAG thread doesn't tell you all of that. These changes also weren't completely reflective in the Aug 2011 numbers thread either.
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strfyr51
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 2:53 pm

United has their OWN hangars at Den But I DOUBT it. We're doing Bit time work at Denver on the A320/A319's and likely to do even More on the 737's when all is said and done. Denver is a VERY senior Maint Group and their expertise is invaluable We Fo have a LOT of gates at Denver and possibly more than we actuallly need for Mainline. I have NO Idea what UAX uses or who Uses them
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 43):
767s to LIM & SFO, CR7s everywhere in lieu of ERJs, 757s to SAN/PHL/LGA/MCO/MSY/LAS/BOS/DCA/IAD/TPA/SEA/PDX/BWI/LAX, 319s and 320s backfilling for 735/73Gs with the 757s backfilling for the 738s and the few 739s going to ORD etc.

I'm talking about frequency, not aircraft size from IAH.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 41):
If they can get the City to take the gates back and pay for the gates per-use, UA would likely save money

They did that with 2 gates before. Now WN is trying to gain exclusivity on those gates from the city.
 
ScottB
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 42):
Jackson Hole might be sparely populated but if they can fill an A320 up to capacity with high fares to Denver, it works.

Sure, but they can probably fill A320's/738's/757's with high fares between ORD/IAH/SFO and JAC as well. The amount of high-fare intra-regional traffic to & from JAC isn't all that large, and it's shared with DL.
 
codc10
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 45):

I'm talking about frequency, not aircraft size from IAH.

Increasing gauge at a banked hub is probably the most efficient way to add capacity without having to implement a full-blown bank or grow off-peak flying.
 
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drerx7
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RE: UA Want To Reduce Space At DEN

Tue May 01, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 45):
I'm talking about frequency, not aircraft size from IAH.

You cannot have meat without the potatos sir  
Quoting ScottB (Reply 47):
Sure, but they can probably fill A320's/738's/757's with high fares between ORD/IAH/SFO and JAC as well.

Yep, the 757 is on IAH-JAC. Houston has a high yielding scuba and ski community.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 48):
Increasing gauge at a banked hub is probably the most efficient way to add capacity without having to implement a full-blown bank or grow off-peak flying.

Co sign.

Also as an aside I looked up some numbers for IAH from Houston Airport System Of note:
March 2012 vs. March 2011 Pax numbers Not including the regional flying.
United (pmUA) International ops increased 100% of course due to LIM
United (pmUA) domestic ops increased 237.3%
pmCO Asia/Africa increased 13% (obviously the addition of LOS has to do with this)
pmCO Canada increased 3.68%
pmCO Central/South America decreased 5.38% (of course some of that is the swap of the LIM 757 to UA 763)
pmCO Domestic decreased 11.57% (commensurate with the increase from pmUA flying)
pmCO Europe decreased 12.4% (CO is getting hammered by the ample trans-atlantic competition)
pmCO Mexico decreased by 25.17% (demand has fallen off for Mexico tourism, but VFR has not been affected quite as much)
SQ DME traffic increased by 11.78% and SIN fell off by 24.33% commensurate with the move from less than daily.
LH remained stable with a .1% increase.

[Edited 2012-05-01 08:36:03]

[Edited 2012-05-01 08:36:47]
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised