abnormal
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New AC Aircraft?

Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:25 pm

As our flight from Denver approached gate 76 in the US arrivals area of YUL I happened to notice an AC tail parked off in the corner of the ramp area there. It was painted in the typical toothpaste blue of the AC fleet with a red maple leaf on the tail but it had EXPRESS in big 3' lettering emblazoned across the fwd fuselage area. And it seemed to me it was a CRJ 705.

I know they were flying DHC-8-400s but is Sky Regional flying CRJs now?

[Edited 2012-04-29 09:26:41]
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:42 pm

I don't think so. It was probably a Jazz CRJ, AC has started re-branding of all their regional carriers as Air Canada Express
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
abnormal
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:52 pm

My apologies then. Just checked the Jazz website and sure enough, the DHC-8-400 was painted in that new livery.

I know the AC pilot negotiations are a mess right now with scope being one of the issues and there is talk of a new LCC starting up so that was the context I was seeing this thing in.
 
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longhauler
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:41 am

Air Canada has re-branded its regionals as Air Canada Express, which you likely saw. In small letters on the side is the information "Operated by Jazz, or SkyRegional", etc.

This has the sceptics wondering if HQ is going to pull an "Aveos" on Chorus/Jazz, and just get someone else to do the flying under the same brand.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:49 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
This has the sceptics wondering if HQ is going to pull an "Aveos" on Chorus/Jazz, and just get someone else to do the flying under the same brand.

How is this possible? Chorus is an independent company with a 10-year contract with AC for flying a minimum number of a/c for AC. I don't see how AC could jettison Chorus if it wanted to.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
9252fly
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:16 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
I don't see how AC could jettison Chorus if it wanted to.

AC could still potentially file for CCAA and ask the courts for permission to renegotiate the agreement. The irony is that the new agreement could include current mainline aircraft. It's an industry in a constant state of evolution.
 
ykaops
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:37 am

Chorus a.k.a JAZZ will be taking all E170/E190 flying over.








WHEN HELL FREEZES OVER if ACPA has their onerous ways!
 
CRJ 900
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:51 am

Who on earth would AC use to replace Jazz? Skyregional? Seriously you guys, Jazz operates more of AC's flights than AC does itself. Furthermore Jazz is sitting on a nice bunch of cash. If anyone is in the position to help them out it's us, but I would suspect that in order for that to happen, ALOT would have to change at AC and yes, that could include EMBs. If that doesn't happen, maybe Chorus will just sit back and watch AC sink and then we'll take over after they are gone ie Swissair /Crossair. Never say never.
 
connies4ever
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:59 pm

There is of course the new 77Ws that AC will be taking up next year (2).

AFAIK AC would _love_ to trash the current contract with Chorus and make them pay for their own fuel, this is a potential big risk to AC's bottom line. So CCAA might not be a bad thing in the bigger picture. The E-jets and who flies them would also be in the mix in this situation.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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longhauler
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
How is this possible? Chorus is an independent company with a 10-year contract with AC for flying a minimum number of a/c for AC. I don't see how AC could jettison Chorus if it wanted to.

You mean like Aveos?

Quoting ykaops (Reply 6):
Chorus a.k.a JAZZ will be taking all E170/E190 flying over.

Why would they? Right now AC can do it cheaper!

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 7):
Jazz operates more of AC's flights than AC does itself.

But only 10% of the RPMs.

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 7):
Furthermore Jazz is sitting on a nice bunch of cash.

Because of the very lucrative CPA, signed by ACE on behalf of AC.

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 7):
If that doesn't happen, maybe Chorus will just sit back and watch AC sink and then we'll take over after they are gone ie Swissair /Crossair. Never say never.

That's right ... never say never.

AC could simply stop paying Chorus, just like that stopped paying Aveos. Just because. Remember, AC management is not playing "fair" here. Then, when Jazz goes into CCAA, they will either offer one third of the current CPA, or like Aveos, don't even bother, and have "something else" already arranged.

I think by now, people in the industry realize what AC is doing, and one by one, they are either looking for assets to sell, or cutting costs whether warranted or not. And right now, one thing that sticks out is the CPA with Chorus. The CPA is almost double the "going rate" for the service, and to top it off, AC is providing "for free" a lot of airport services and fuel.

It was estimated that putting the CPA and agreement, back to "industry standard" would save AC about $450M a year. If one doesn't think this is in their sites, then you are very naive.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
9252fly
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
AFAIK AC would _love_ to trash the current contract with Chorus and make them pay for their own fuel

All Capacity Purchase Agreements globally include the mainline carrier covering the cost of fuel. If you're suggesting that Jazz do the flying for AC at risk,then that's a different agreement all together. Taking it a step further,it would require Jazz to return to being an fully independent airline and offering flights for code-share with AC.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
Because of the very lucrative CPA, signed by ACE on behalf of AC

There's no doubt in my mind that the industry will always have players that will offer to do it for less,especially new upstarts. I believe it's commonly known as the 'race-to-the-bottom'. You've suggested that the rates AC pay Jazz could be cut by 2/3 compared to what other providers earn. What I've yet to see, is you backing up that statement with facts.
 
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longhauler
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 10):
You've suggested that the rates AC pay Jazz could be cut by 2/3 compared to what other providers earn. What I've yet to see, is you backing up that statement with facts.

I can only cite what is in the public domain, as I am restricted by the AC Code of Conduct. Probably the most obvious is that right now AC pays SkyRegional less than half of what it pays Chorus to fly a Q400. And ... SkyRegional pays for its own fuel! This information can be found looking at the financial results filed with Transport Canada.

Now, looking at FAA websites, look at what American regional carriers are charging their respective mainline carriers. If we call the dollar par, it is almost exactly a third what Chorus is charging Air Canada. These carriers could fly Trans-border flying for AC. (not domestic, of course)

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 10):
There's no doubt in my mind that the industry will always have players that will offer to do it for less,especially new upstarts. I believe it's commonly known as the 'race-to-the-bottom'

While what you state is true, that is not the case here. When Jazz was "extracted" from Air Canada, and the Jazz "shares" were being sold to raise money for ACE, a lucrative contract had to be displayed in order to prove the viability of Jazz as a separate company. And, on the basis of that very lucrative CPA more than $2B was generated for ACE, (but not AC).

So, it is not a matter of a race to the bottom, it is more an artificial push to the top.

You will note, this is exactly the same scenario as Aveos. Artificially high rates and along term contract were agreed upon to sell ACTS, as Aveos. And yes, just like Chorus has a contract with Air Canada, so did Aveos!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
9252fly
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:57 pm

Got to admit Longhauler,your reply above was well thought out and made a lot of good points. We sure live in interesting times!
 
ANM604
Posts: 138
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RE: New AC Aircraft?

Tue May 01, 2012 6:34 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
There is of course the new 77Ws that AC will be taking up next year (2).

While they have ordered them, whether or not they are delivered in AC colors remains to be seen. So far I have yet to see anything that indicates where they are going. It would be nice, but I don't know if they want more A/C payments right now; I think we might see the order flipped.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
I think by now, people in the industry realize what AC is doing, and one by one, they are either looking for assets to sell, or cutting costs whether warranted or not. And right now, one thing that sticks out is the CPA with Chorus. The CPA is almost double the "going rate" for the service, and to top it off, AC is providing "for free" a lot of airport services and fuel.

Yup. If only it was that easy to get out of the CPA. I believe they are allowed to renegotiate every 'X' years, so I imagine that will be the first shot at lowering costs.

Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 7):
Who on earth would AC use to replace Jazz?

No one carrier in particular. You would probably see a mix of carriers who would step up and bid for different routes. It wouldn't be hard at all. You can bet that with WS starting up their regional, there are more then a few carriers who would like to take over some Jazz routes.

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