CIDFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 1901
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WN's Future Plans At STL?

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:41 pm

Just curious as to how big WN will grow STL in the future. In the MKE thread I read where they will be at over 100 flights a day this summer, a big jump from the nearly 80 a day they have been at and rather stagant at for a number of years. Glad to see WN taking advantage of AA's cuts to expand. Could we eventually see WN expand down the D concourse? Would be nice to see that renovated like A and C and put to use....perhaps maybe someday some international flights to CUN post FL merger?
 
LV
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WN's Future Plans At STL?

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:14 pm

I've said it before in other threads and I will say it here again. I think WN will eventually make it's way down the D concourse at STL an perhaps eventually control it. As WN grows it is getting away from being a point to point airline to one that has "hubs" or transit points, what ever you want to call them. Right now MDW is serving that role for the heartland but there is a finite amount of room at MDW and I think WN has almost hit the cap there. When that happens WN will have to start shifting more of the focus from transit traffic at MDW (I think 43% is the last number I heard there, correct me if I am wrong) to strictly O&D. That's when I think you will really start seeing expansion at STL. I don't really see a way for O&D to grow at STL as I don't see any growth drivers for that region, so I think it will grow based on being a transit point for WN to take strain off of MDW. The funny part of that is that AA originally wanted TW and STL to help take strain off of ORD (hope I'm not giving an inferiority complex to our STL members). I think it also helps that WN is keeping ICT and DSM in the merger. Those two cities in and of themselves don't really mean anything but it shows that WN wants to keep and grow a presence in the heartland and that means expanding flights throughout the Midwest. You are going to need a way to connect ICT to BNA or DSM to RSW. I think STL will fill that role nicely.
Now there is one little hiccup I concede in my theory.... MKE. I can't figure out why WN is still pouring resources in there (no I haven't seen the latest MKE thread yet). I thought originally the point was to win the three way fight with FL and F9 and basically draw traffic from Chicago's northern suburbs. But now WN owns FL and F9 is throwing in the towel. Maybe WN feels it will need two transit points to bracket MDW. Or maybe not having a billion dollar boondoggle of a runway might play to MKE's advantage (yes I know the argument it was needed at that time, but it is driving up the costs at the airport now).
 
CIDFlyer
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WN's Future Plans At STL?

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:47 pm

I would love to see WN put the D concourse to good use, would elinate the ghost town feeling the airport is suffering from now. Also, Ive seen others nix it, but I could see DSM-STL flights. DSM was connected for years with TWA and AA, and was one of the last cities AA kept from STL so I would think there is something there why the kept it for so long. ICT too... I could also see maybe ORF or JAX connected to STL at some point hopefully.
 
BMI727
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Thread starter):
Just curious as to how big WN will grow STL in the future.

Probably not a lot bigger than they are now (combined with AirTran of course). I'd even expect some modest cuts in 2014 when Wright expires and STL is no longer needed as a stopover between DAL and the East Coast.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
777STL
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:58 pm

Something to keep in mind is that with WN's proficiency at quick turnarounds, WN would have to add a significant number of flights to necessitate acquiring gates down the D concourse.

I really don't see that happening. STL isn't going to gain 30-40 WN flights over night. As big as WN is at STL right now, I don't think they even crack the top 15 WN stations.
PHX based
 
stl1326
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 4):
I really don't see that happening. STL isn't going to gain 30-40 WN flights over night. As big as WN is at STL right now, I don't think they even crack the top 15 WN stations.

STL is actually the 12th busiest station, right behind San Diego.
 
CIDFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 1901
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:50 pm

looks like if this fact sheet held up, STL would be about the size of Oakland at 108 flights and would be in the top 10. Not too shabby. I bet Terminal 2 at STL is constantly hopping.

http://www.southwest.com/html/about-...fact-sheet-top-airports-popup.html

Quoting 777STL (Reply 4):
Something to keep in mind is that with WN's proficiency at quick turnarounds, WN would have to add a significant number of flights to necessitate acquiring gates down the D concourse.

perhaps they could remove the number of gates they have on D and space them out a little more to allow more spacious boarding areas and more stores/restaurant space. How many gates did D have before AA shut it down and consolidated to C?
 
Dallas
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:37 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Probably not a lot bigger than they are now (combined with AirTran of course). I'd even expect some modest cuts in 2014 when Wright expires and STL is no longer needed as a stopover between DAL and the East Coast.

I'm also very interested to see what happens in 2014. I think STL (and MCI a little) service might lose some service with Dallas being able to fly nonstop to Chicago and the east coast. A lot of it will depend on what nonstop cities and routes are used, but I would imagine service to suffer a little. Until 2014, I'd expect service to moderately increase.
 
steex
Posts: 1337
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:29 pm

Just to clarify, STL is not scheduled to have 100 departures this year, I believe that was someone providing conjecture of where they think STL is headed. I checked the schedules for two dates and found the following (combining both WN and FL):

23 July 2012 (Monday)
93 Flights
34 Destinations

1x ABQ, 4x ATL, 5x BWI, 1x BHM, 3x BOS, 10x MDW, 2x CMH, 9x DAL, 4x DEN, 2x DTW, 1x FLL, 1x RSW, 4x HOU, 5x MCI, 4x LAS, 2x LIT, 2x LAX, 2x SDF, 2x MKE, 3x MSP, 2x BNA, 1x MSY, 2x EWR, 2x OKC, 3x OMA, 3x MCO, 1x ECP, 2x PHL, 3x PHX, 1x RDU, 1x SAN, 1x SEA, 2x TPA, 2x TUL
______________________

13 August 2012 (Monday)
93 Flights
34 Destinations

1x ABQ, 3x ATL, 5x BWI, 1x BHM, 2x BOS, 10x MDW, 2x CMH, 9x DAL, 4x DEN, 2x DTW, 1x FLL, 1x RSW, 4x HOU, 5x MCI, 4x LAS, 2x LIT, 2x LAX, 2x SDF, 2x MKE, 3x MSP, 2x BNA, 1x MSY, 2x LGA, 2x EWR, 2x OKC, 3x OMA, 3x MCO, 2x PHL, 3x PHX, 1x RDU, 2x SAT, 1x SEA, 2x TPA, 2x TUL
______________________

The difference between the two schedules, essentially, is that ECP and SAN are both operating at 1x daily on 23 July, plus at that time ATL is 4x and BOS is 3x on weekdays.

By 13 August, 2x daily to each of LGA and SAT have come online, but the flights to ECP and SAN disappear and ATL and BOS each lose a frequency.
 
CIDFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 1901
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 8):
Just to clarify, STL is not scheduled to have 100 departures this year, I believe that was someone providing conjecture of where they think STL is headed. I checked the schedules for two dates and found the following (combining both WN and FL):

23 July 2012 (Monday)
93 Flights
34 Destinations


ahh I see...thanks for the clarification...still not too shabby of a schedule though...nice to see ECP even as a seasonal destination...

Quoting Dallas (Reply 7):

I'm also very interested to see what happens in 2014. I think STL (and MCI a little) service might lose some service with Dallas being able to fly nonstop to Chicago and the east coast. A lot of it will depend on what nonstop cities and routes are used, but I would imagine service to suffer a little. Until 2014, I'd expect service to moderately increase.

Hopefully it wont, I'd still like to see STL build up a little more....I think it releases a little of the pressure off of MDW more than anything.
 
gizmonc
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:51 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:51 pm

Most likely the build up in STL will be FALL 2012. True STL LGA/SAT start in AUG 2012, no firm date on STL ATL. Other increase in flights out of STL will be increases to current destinations.
 
ckfred
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting LV (Reply 1):
Now there is one little hiccup I concede in my theory.... MKE. I can't figure out why WN is still pouring resources in there (no I haven't seen the latest MKE thread yet). I thought originally the point was to win the three way fight with FL and F9 and basically draw traffic from Chicago's northern suburbs. But now WN owns FL and F9 is throwing in the towel. Maybe WN feels it will need two transit points to bracket MDW.

MKE would like to be the 3rd Chicago area airport, rather than Gary, Rockford, or Peotone. By the same token, I've known people who say they would love to fly WN, but living in the northern suburbs gave them no incentive. Why drive past ORD to get to MDW, even with higher fares? This was before WN started flying into MKE.

By trying to be the large carrier at MKE that the original Midwest Airlines was, WN then can continue to be the alternative to UA and AA at ORD, whether you live or work in the Loop, the west suburbs, or the south suburbs (MDW) or live or work in the north suburbs (MKE).
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 9):


Hopefully it wont, I'd still like to see STL build up a little more....I think it releases a little of the pressure off of MDW more than anything.

I'm sure when Love is set free in 2014 STL will lose some of it's purpose in funneling people down to DAL. There are other opportunities to replace some of that flying elsewhere.

I think STL-Mexico/Caribbean down the road is probable. Also markets like PDX, OAK, PVD, BDL, ORF, AUS etc...might get a flight to STL in the future as MDW is rescheduled to access some of the new FL markets. Might be a wash in terms of flight totals but they still might break the 100 flight a day threshold in a few years.
Next up: STL-CVG-MKE-MSP-STL.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:53 pm

Southwest is def doing work in hopes to add more flights to STL.

I am looking forward to seeing how much WN can increase in STL, yet at same time, I do wonder what will happen for when 2014 /Wright occures.

At the moment WN cannot do STL-CUN as the route authority is tied up, AA, F9 and U5 all have it, my only question is does DOT allow F9 to hold 2 or does the closing down of U5 open up the 3rd one?

It's amazing how busy it gets during peak time. I flew out Sat afternoon and we got shut down due to the lightning strikes, no one could access the gates. So when the ramp opened up we had 5 WN birds on the ground, it looked like a "hub" in the sense of movement! Was great to see!

The addition of SAT and LGA is promising as well as ECP I am glad to see not just expansion to current cities but expansion to new cities/airports!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
gizmonc
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:51 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 8):

Just to clarify, STL is not scheduled to have 100 departures this year, I believe that was someone providing conjecture of where they think STL is headed. I checked the schedules for two dates and found the following (combining both WN and FL):

STL is scheduled to go to 99 FLIGHTS in SEPT/OCT schedule LOAD. That is about as close to 100 as you can get. Forecasted increased flights is forcased to be 108 out of STL.

Adding jetway to E24 and leasing E29 from the city. E2 is no longer usable.
 
LambertMan
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Tue May 01, 2012 12:05 am

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 2):
I would love to see WN put the D concourse to good use, would elinate the ghost town feeling the airport is suffering from now. Also, Ive seen others nix it, but I could see DSM-STL flights. DSM was connected for years with TWA and AA, and was one of the last cities AA kept from STL so I would think there is something there why the kept it for so long. ICT too... I could also see maybe ORF or JAX connected to STL at some point hopefully.

I find it unlikely that they will need the D concourse anytime soon, unfortunately. On the other hand, I expect it to remain an important station in the WN network even after the Wright Amendment expires. Much like Nashville is used as a connecting point for southeastern destinations (Greenville, Nofolk, Panama City, etc.), St. Louis is used as a heartland connecting point of sorts and I expect both DSM and ICT to be added at some point in the future.

Other hopeful routes are Austin and Portland, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2636
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Tue May 01, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 13):
At the moment WN cannot do STL-CUN as the route authority is tied up, AA, F9 and U5 all have it, my only question is does DOT allow F9 to hold 2 or does the closing down of U5 open up the 3rd one?

Southwest/Airtran can do STL-CUN as long as they apply for the authority. With U5's closing they gave up the right to hold the 3rd authority. Their authority is up for grabs and F9 is not allowed to hold two authorities.

Quoting LV (Reply 1):
Right now MDW is serving that role for the heartland but there is a finite amount of room at MDW and I think WN has almost hit the cap there.

I don't think WN has hit the cap at MDW just yet. They got a bit more of breathing room with the three additional gates that came from FL. Looking at how many flights they have at LAS with the number gates they can fit a bit more at MDW.
 
ExpressJet_ERJ
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RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Tue May 01, 2012 2:15 am

Does anyone know what cities SWA used to serve out of STL that they no longer do? IND is a HUGE hole, no competition on the route. I wish we would see it again.
ETOPS...Engines Turn Or People Swim
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11651
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Tue May 01, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 16):
I don't think WN has hit the cap at MDW just yet. They got a bit more of breathing room with the three additional gates that came from FL. Looking at how many flights they have at LAS with the number gates they can fit a bit more at MDW.

Gates are not the problem at MDW. It's ability to handle bags, which I understand is both a staffing and an infrastructure issue. Recall that for a while, WN sorted connecting bags manually under a tent between Concourse A and the A4 extension.

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 17):
IND is a HUGE hole, no competition on the route. I wish we would see it again.

The problem with IND is the tiny local market. It's such an easy drive.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Tue May 01, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 17):
Does anyone know what cities SWA used to serve out of STL that they no longer do? IND is a HUGE hole, no competition on the route. I wish we would see it again.

IND was the only one to my knowledge...

FLL, LAX, MSY all dropped and returned.

We had a Saturday Only STL-PBI not sure how long that lasted, STL-CLE is now missing (I found that odd)

So missing routes STL no longer sees...Daily or Otherwise

STL-PBI
STL-CLE
STL-IND

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
sdoyon
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:25 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Tue May 01, 2012 2:56 am

STL-SLC no longer runs (first shows up in 1994, not sure about when it was cut)
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Tue May 01, 2012 4:20 am

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 20):
STL-SLC no longer runs (first shows up in 1994, not sure about when it was cut)

That's what I was thinking of! Yes you're correct SLC too was dropped, I think around 2008 or 2009. I flew this in 2007.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 19):
STL-PBI
STL-CLE
STL-IND
STL-SLC
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
FutureUScapt
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:39 pm

RE: WN's Future Plans At STL?

Tue May 01, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 21):
That's what I was thinking of! Yes you're correct SLC too was dropped, I think around 2008 or 2009. I flew this in 2007.

STL-SLC was dropped in October 2009.

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