LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 3:27 pm

City leaders in Santa Monica have begun community workshops to present ideas for the future of Santa Monica Airport.

The historic airfield, and founding home of Douglas Aircraft has its lease agreement with the FAA expire in 2015.

While the city and FAA do retain an option of operating a smaller airport with shorter runway and fewer support services, about 2/3 of the airports land will revert to the city for other uses when FAA operating agreement expires.

In community forums, 84% of local residents either wanted the airport to be closed, or largely mitigated to remove the negative impacts on the community.

Much of the post airfield visioning ideas provide for largely green open areas of parks and gardens for the community.

The airports operation has become over more contentious in recent years as the volume of air traffic has shifted from a recreational GA airport, to one of the LA Basins most active corporate business jet airports with the added noise impacts.



Story:
http://la.curbed.com/archives/2012/0...rport.php#4f9f120685216d247201ae41

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
northstardc4m
Posts: 2724
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 3:35 pm

...   

Only in California!
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
phxa340
Posts: 985
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The airports operation has become over more contentious in recent years as the volume of air traffic has shifted from a recreational GA airport, to one of the LA Basins most active corporate business jet airports with the added noise impacts.

Santa Monica airport serves Brentwood, Beverly Hills, Malibu, Pacific Palisades, and pretty much the entire Westside that houses many of these business jet owners with lots of $$$ to make sure Santa Monica airport sticks around for a long time to come ... I predict a lot of nasty debating but in 2020 SM airport looks pretty much just like it does today.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 4:46 pm

My first 'knee jerk' reaction was to rant. But VNY and Inglewood should have the capacity to absorb the Santa Monica traffic.

Question: Does BUR have the space to take the growth pushed from Santa Monica?

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The airports operation has become over more contentious in recent years as the volume of air traffic has shifted from a recreational GA airport, to one of the LA Basins most active corporate business jet airports with the added noise impacts.

Which means job and wealth creation.

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 1):
Only in California!

Sigh...

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 2):
I predict a lot of nasty debating but in 2020 SM airport looks pretty much just like it does today.

I have less faith. I swear the state would expect the traffic to go to Compton or Palmdale...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
n782nc
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:31 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 1):

With all respect, what's that supposed to mean?

Why should Santa Monica continue operating an airport if the costs of keeping it open cannot be justified? If the residents believe it's more beneficial to close the airport, that's their choice (It's not like the LA Basin couldn't use the extra greenery anyway). If SMO is ultimately closed, put a museum, keep the runway, etc. to preserve the historical significance of the area.

IMO, of course...
Stairway to Seven
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 5:55 pm

I think all but a few in the area are on board with shutting that airport down. My money says it happens. Part of me hates to see it go. The other part of me remembers doing carrier landings on it, using max reverse, early level offs, re-routes, noise police, weight restrictions, second segment climb gradient nightmares when using 3 and shitloads of slow VFR traffic going in and out, 4 degree glidepaths, dirty looks from the neighbors, etc....

It's a great place for light piston aircraft and turboprops, but I wish they'd have been successful in kicking jets out. I hated flying in there. Right after they get done neutering SMO, they can drive the bulldozers down to CRQ.
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 2):
I predict a lot of nasty debating but in 2020 SM airport looks pretty much just like it does today.

Might be nasty, but I'd say the city and community desire will prevail at the end.

For about 20-years now, successive City Councils have worked on various measures to limit airport operations, including putting ever more parcels of land to use for non aviation activities.

The airports location is what has made it a more contentious issue in this affluent part of town. Its almost like a Midway airport surrounded on all sides by residential or commercial activity.
Also the fact that there is the annual spate of one or two crashes which further makes airport activity not compatible to its surrounding community and its safety in the eyes of the city.
Even the FAA has raised concerns due to the short (4973 ft) runway and lack of overrun space.



=

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
My first 'knee jerk' reaction was to rant. But VNY and Inglewood should have the capacity to absorb the Santa Monica traffic.

Question: Does BUR have the space to take the growth pushed from Santa Monica?

LA basin has tons of runways. Certainly the FBOs at places like Van Nuys, Burbank, or others can handle the added activity, however those airports also are under the target hairs by their own communities as well so any added spill over activity wont be popular.

They can always come to LAX, however the fees are higher which is what drives much of the activity to these nearby community airports to begin with.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
phxa340
Posts: 985
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Might be nasty, but I'd say the city and community desire will prevail at the end.

Eventually, this will be settled by politics. Cash is king , especially in California. Try convincing a wealthy businessman to sit on the 405 during rush hour to travel to Van Nuys or Burbank to fly out of LA in leiu of SM. While I respect your opinion and for the hope of the surrounding community you are right, I am less optimistic.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Its almost like a Midway airport surrounded on all sides by residential or commercial activity.

Yup and Midway isn't going anywhere. People have been trying to get rid of SM for years ... I just don't see it.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 2152
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
LA basin has tons of runways.

Not compared to what it had in the past.

This is a shame, there is no reason to close SMO totally. Want to shorten the runway to limit types of operations, fine. But to totally close it, is criminal, IMO. Imagine some other powerful lobby trying to close a section of the 405 because they didn't like the noise. It's the same issue, but no one in their right mind would close the 405.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
They can always come to LAX, however the fees are higher which is what drives much of the activity to these nearby community airports to begin with.

Just 3 miles east of LAX is Hawthore (HHR) which probably has lower fees than its neighbor. There is also Zamperini Field near Torrance, Compton and LGB. If Santa Monica closes, then there will be nothing between LAX and VNY but several GA fields will remain to the south.
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 7):
Eventually, this will be settled by politics. Cash is king , especially in California. Try convincing a wealthy businessman to sit on the 405 during rush hour to travel to Van Nuys or Burbank to fly out of LA in leiu of SM. While I respect your opinion and for the hope of the surrounding community you are right, I am less optimistic.

Dont forget that the airport impacts maybe 100 wealthy persons for each 1 wealthy person that utilizes it.

Way more people suffer with the noise and air pollution the airport generates than those that benefit from its existence.
It came out not too long ago the airport was the number one pollutant on the Westside of LA.

So the community angst has continued to grow against the airport ever stronger year after year. Also the continued string of crashes also does not help the airport endear itself to the dense nearby neighborhood.

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 7):
Yup and Midway isn't going anywhere. People have been trying to get rid of SM for years ... I just don't see it.

2015 presents a whole new opportunity for the city as 2/3 of the field reverts back from FAA lease.

Attempts to limit activity up to today were about things like noise, aircraft sizing, limiting business at the airport etc.

Post 2015 there still might be an airport if the FAA opts to utilize it, however its foot print, including runway length would be much smaller if Santa Monica carries out its stated plans. This would render the field worthless for many users, especially the jet traffic.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 8):
Not compared to what it had in the past.

And the fact is that community after community realize that airports are no longer compatible with other land uses in the middle of dense urban areas. Cant really blame them imo..
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
phxa340
Posts: 985
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Dont forget that the airport impacts maybe 100 wealthy persons for each 1 wealthy person that utilizes it.

I think you meant non-wealthy for that first part ? But that is the point I am trying to make. The wealthy ones are the ones that willing to make large political contributions to the SM City Council to retain their airport. I agree with what you say 100% I just, unfortunately, don't think that is the reality of the situation when politics are involved.
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 8:29 pm

No I mean wealthy

The airport effects communities like Beverly Hills, Century City, much of West LA plus off course Santa Monica. Some LA's highest average incomes are in these neighborhoods and get to deal with the noise and pollution.

Also to date, the SM City Council has been unanimous. Last time they went toe to toe with the FAA the council voted 7-0. I'm sorry but I don't see Santa Monica backing down, as this topic has had deep community interest, and SM has always been a left leaning, tree hugging environmental types and its elected city council has long reflected such.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
phxa340
Posts: 985
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Last time they went toe to toe with the FAA the council voted 7-0. I'm sorry but I don't see Santa Monica backing down, as this topic has had deep community interest, and SM has always been a left leaning, tree hugging environmental types and its elected city council has long reflected such.

This is why the city of Santa Monica will lose though (in my opinion):

1. They have been trying to shut down the airport since the 1960s when the imposed a ban on jets (This was overturned)
2. The FAA isn't backing down and even though the land belongs to Santa Monica , a prior agreement between the FAA and the city of SM says that it needs to serve as an airport indefinitely.
3. They already voted unanimously to shut down the airport (Twice) to then later negotiate with the FAA
4. You mention that a lot of the flights go over wealthy areas , and your right ... some do but a lot of the neighborhoods are neither wealthy nor inclined to keep fighting a battle they have been losing for the last 40 years.
 
daviation
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 8:51 pm

And Santa Monica Airport is featured in the YouTube below, with Barbara Streisand belting out a big number!!! If you go to the 2:00 minute mark, you'll see her board a Ford Tri-Motor (I think), and takeoff on the main runway, all the while holding a high-C or something for the entire takeoff roll!!

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/WZurn9COXBA/
PlaneFlown:717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC8,DC9,DC10,L1011,F100,A300,319,320,321,330,340,CRJ,ERJ,E190,Av85,DH8,Beaver,ATR
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 9):
There is also Zamperini Field near Torrance, Compton and LGB.

Unfortunately, there is an overload of NIMBYs in Long Beach as well when it comes to jet traffic. I used to live underneath the takeoff pattern (in Bixby Knolls) there - plenty of my neighbors bitched and complain about all of the biz jets AND the commercial jets. My question was always: "Did you live here before the airport was built? Then don't complain!"
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
penguins
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:52 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 01, 2012 11:03 pm

I frequent the airport to go plane spotting quite a bit. The area around the airport is not the most wealthy compared to the Palisades. Due to the investments like a new museum of flying and the fact that many of the west sides biz jets reside their, I think we will we money win over the will of the people.
 
boilerla
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:30 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 7:55 am

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 1):
Only in California

Wait, so only Californians hate airports in their backyards? Try putting an airfield on the upper west side of Manhattan and see what reaction you'll get from the residents. I can guarantee it own't be pleasant. Not only is the land too valuable for an airport (just like SMO) but no city councilman is going to piss off the richest part of the city.

Let's face it, nobody wants an airport in their backyard. I love aviation just as much as anybody else, but there's no way you could pay me to move to Playa Del Rey--the tagline for some of those condos could be "When you just cant live without the sound of a 747 in your living room".

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 7):
Yup and Midway isn't going anywhere. People have been trying to get rid of SM for years ... I just don't see it.

Yeah well Midway is one of the the crappiest parts of Chicago. When the people of South Chicago can convince all the other aldermen to close Midway, I'll put on a dress and dance on State Street. Until then, don't compare south Chicago to Santa Monica and Century City.

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 13):
2. The FAA isn't backing down and even though the land belongs to Santa Monica , a prior agreement between the FAA and the city of SM says that it needs to serve as an airport indefinitely.

The trick is, a good portion of the land does revert back to the city. And the city can vote to biuld up that land, shortening the runways just enough that most jets can't take off. Which means, it's all nice and quiet, but the airport is dead and financially unviable for the FAA, who has no choice but to shut it down.
 
kaitak744
Posts: 2086
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 7:57 am

This is stupid. This airport should not close.... It is airports like these that make our city more attractive to businesses.
 
jporterfi
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:25 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 9:02 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
LA basin has tons of runways. Certainly the FBOs at places like Van Nuys, Burbank, or others can handle the added activity, however those airports also are under the target hairs by their own communities as well so any added spill over activity wont be popular.

This is where you run into a paradox. People want airports close to them, but don't like the noise. Personally, however, I can't see BUR, VNY, or HHR going anywhere even if more GA traffic ends up shifting there. You figure that people with the jets that land at SMO have money to spend to find a way to get to LAX, VNY, or BUR to use their jets, but I se it from their POV: it just takes more time, especially in L.A.
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 12:28 pm

Quoting n782nc (Reply 4):

Why should Santa Monica continue operating an airport if the costs of keeping it open cannot be justified?

It doesn't cost Santa Monica, in fact it is Santa Monica which benefits economically:

"According to HR&A, the airport campus has 177 aviation and non-aviation businesses spread across 42 different industry sectors that support 1,487 full- and part-time jobs. For every direct job, an additional 1.66 jobs are created within the economy in terms of support services, according to the analysis.

The annual operation of the airport generates a total economic output of $275.2 million in the local economy, including $187.5 million in annual tenant sales, government expenditures and visitor spending at city businesses.

"Stated another way, the sale of direct economic activity at the airport [$187.5 million] is equivalent to the direct economic output generated by 1,855 average-price hotel rooms, or 1.2 million square feet of general retail or 350,000 square feet of commercial office space," the report reads.

In the 2010-11 fiscal year, the airport managed that with no general fund subsidy, said Susan Cline, assistant director of Public Works.
"

http://www.smdp.com/Articles-c-2011-...analysis-shows-rosy-economics.html

To further the discussion on the economic politics of this airport...

"The power struggle between City Hall and the FAA has led to clashes over the decades, most recently an unsuccessful eight-year court battle over a jet ban which cost over $1.5 million in attorneys' fees alone."

Since it is the local resident we are looking out for, after wasting $1.5 million on attorney fees for an ill-advised campaign against the FAA, perhaps it is city council that should be shit canned, and not the airport.

Quoting n782nc (Reply 4):
If SMO is ultimately closed, put a museum, keep the runway, etc

I agree with keeping the runway to this museum. In fact, how about a living, interacting museum runway, which would include real takeoffs and landings?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
They can always come to LAX,

You can't seriously be suggesting that LAX add well over 100,000 general aviation operations?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Way more people suffer with the noise and air pollution the airport generates than those that benefit from its existence. It came out not too long ago the airport was the number one pollutant on the Westside of LA.

I'm curious to see a source for this, as I find it hard to believe on the noise issue, considering there is a night time curfew. I also find it hard to believe on the air pollution front considering SMO has about 300 daily operations, consisting mostly of single engine props, compared to I-405 which consists of hundreds of thousands of vehicles passing the local area daily.

Quoting boilerla (Reply 17):
Yeah well Midway is one of the the crappiest parts of Chicago. When the people of South Chicago can convince all the other aldermen to close Midway, I'll put on a dress and dance on State Street. Until then, don't compare south Chicago to Santa Monica and Century City.

So South Chicago residents, unlike those in Santa Monica, are mindlessly "putting up with" their airport because it is a crappier neighborhood? Or more deserving of the perceived noise? Sounds like class warfare; but I'm willing to give South Chicago the benefit of the doubt that just perhaps they understand and appreciate the many benefits their airport provides them.
FLYi
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 12:42 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 15):
My question was always: "Did you live here before the airport was built? Then don't complain!

And when they tell you they are the third generation living at that location you suggest shutting down the airport, or?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
diverdave
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:00 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 12:52 pm

I love it. Shut the airport down and put up some windmills. California.  

David
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting boilerla (Reply 17):
Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 1):Only in California
Wait, so only Californians hate airports in their backyards? Try putting an airfield on the upper west side of Manhattan and see what reaction you'll get from the residents. I can guarantee it own't be pleasant. Not only is the land too valuable for an airport (just like SMO) but no city councilman is going to piss off the richest part of the city.

There is just a little bit of difference in your analysis. SMO has been there since the early 1920s, and New York City already has an airport on the north side of the city. Perhaps you have heard of it, LGA? EWR could also be called the Upper West Manhattan Airport.

New York closed an airport in the early 1970s, IIRC, but it was next door to JFK. It was called Floyd Bennett Field.

Has the city of SM considered what it will cost, in jobs and future income potential if SMO was 'converted' into an "eco-field"? Do they even care?

There are noise restrictions already in place for a 24/7 maximum noise output of 95dBA, about the same of noise from road traffic on highways. There are other restrictions, like a night curfew, and no touch and gos during the weekends or at night.

As I said, SMO has been there since the 1920s, but here is a picture I found taken sometime in the 1950s that show neighborhoods built right up to the airport fences (also notice the new build DC-6s sitting on the Douglas ramp).

http://jpg1.lapl.org/00088/00088635.jpg

a.neters should remember SMO as the airport fellow a.neter Paulo Emanuele was killed at in an airplane accident there in 2009.

[Edited 2012-05-02 06:55:07]
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 9):
Just 3 miles east of LAX is Hawthore (HHR) which probably has lower fees than its neighbor.

HHR is trying to expand....

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 9):
There is also Zamperini Field near Torrance, Compton and LGB.

Compton and LGB could take a bit. Recall Zamperini has successfully banned the sale of jet fuel and that limits ops (intentionally).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Dont forget that the airport impacts maybe 100 wealthy persons for each 1 wealthy person that utilizes it.

And how many jobs does it provide those wealthy people? I know people wanting to shut down the airport who then turn around and brag about the business deal closed on "so and so's" business jet flying into the field!

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
I'm sorry but I don't see Santa Monica backing down

Sadly, I must agree. At this point, the business must go elsewhere. The issue for California is that there is no magical barrier at the state line. While the impact will be small.. there is a benefit to attracting the wealthy to fly in near the beach and do the $5k meal for a negotiation.

The question is will this cost or benefit Santa Monica and the nearby communities in the long run?

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 18):
It is airports like these that make our city more attractive to businesses.

Looking at the drop in state tax revenue post a tax hike, there are indications California has gone too far.  
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
SMO has been there since the early 1920s

Unfortunately, that will not change anything. While I agree with your logic... This won't be solved by logic.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
Has the city of SM considered what it will cost, in jobs and future income potential if SMO was 'converted' into an "eco-field"? Do they even care?

They do not care.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
rcair1
Crew
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:39 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting n782nc (Reply 4):
With all respect, what's that supposed to mean?

I think he was referring to the impression given in the image of an active runway surrounded by windmills.

Certainly if they build windmills, they would tear up the runway - but the picture does not give that impression.

I would be surprised to see a wind farm there. NIMBY's are just as vocal about them. They are large, noisy, kill birds and very spectacular when they fail. Hmm - sounds like an airplane......
rcair1
 
fly4film
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:36 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 3:35 pm

If anyone is interested, a movie called "One Six Right" hits on the topic of closing an airfield in the LA basin. Some interesting point of views on the topic can be viewed from both the residents and the pilots.

I personally hope the airport prevails. It is a great airport to fly into and a valuable resource to the city. Once an airport is closed it usually will never be reopened. It is hard for me to believe that a pilot would actually want the field to close or agree with the city. With that said I am not quite sure what you people do that posted above me but it's hard to believe your pilots or involved in aviation at all. Just saying....

I am used to the unconditional support the aviation community gives to aviation related topics including airport closures. So if people on this forum claim to have some sort of involvement in aviatio, I don't like the direction we are headed. It is very naive of you to make the airport out to be a wealthy persons way of being too lazy to drive to another airport. Obviously jets are going to fly into the closest airport to the city in which they serve, but Santa Monica is so much more than that. Just ask the people who work there and fly there.
 
N62NA
Posts: 4006
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 14):
And Santa Monica Airport is featured in the YouTube below, with Barbara Streisand belting out a big number!!! If you go to the 2:00 minute mark, you'll see her board a Ford Tri-Motor (I think), and takeoff on the main runway, all the while holding a high-C or something for the entire takeoff roll!!

Thanks for posting that. It's interesting how Hollywood films end up - unintentionally - documenting places for us to refer back to decades after those films were made.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
There is just a little bit of difference in your analysis. SMO has been there since the early 1920s,

And for a glimpse of what the area looked like in 1928:

http://media.kickstatic.com/kickapps...TO_9362367_66470_18660554_main.jpg
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Much of the post airfield visioning ideas provide for largely green open areas of parks and gardens for the community.

All that greenness will surely require a lot of irrigation, in arid southern California. . . just throw in some wind power and call it environmentally responsible!!!

Oh, and let's replace a bunch of aviation jobs with a few gardeners.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
n782nc
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:31 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 20):

Quoting boilerla (Reply 17):
Yeah well Midway is one of the the crappiest parts of Chicago. When the people of South Chicago can convince all the other aldermen to close Midway

So South Chicago residents, unlike those in Santa Monica, are mindlessly "putting up with" their airport because it is a crappier neighborhood? Or more deserving of the perceived noise? Sounds like class warfare; but I'm willing to give South Chicago the benefit of the doubt that just perhaps they understand and appreciate the many benefits their airport provides them.

Midway is a major commercial airport handling nearly 20 million pax annually with an economic impact of somewhere in or near the billions. SMO is a small business airport that generates

Quoting PITrules (Reply 20):

total economic output of $275.2 million in the local economy

Comparing apples and oranges here, regardless of what social classes surround the respective airports. Don't get me wrong, $275 million is a large sum into any community; but I would also think that many middle class, non-aviation people would find it hard to see an actual benefit for themselves from an airport like SMO vs MDW/LGA/DCA.
Stairway to Seven
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting boilerla (Reply 17):
The trick is, a good portion of the land does revert back to the city. And the city can vote to biuld up that land, shortening the runways just enough that most jets can't take off. Which means, it's all nice and quiet, but the airport is dead and financially unviable for the FAA, who has no choice but to shut it down.

   The 2015 lease ends provides the city with the unique opportunity to take away 2/3 of the already shrunk airport grounds and redesignate them into other land uses.

Hope is that what remains, a much smaller runway, and less aviation infrastructure will make the whole thing unviable and bring to an end this long community saga.

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 18):
It is airports like these that make our city more attractive to businesses.

I'm sorry, but I've never heard anyone opt to do business in Santa Monica due to an airport. People might look at SM for things like quality of life, the ocean, progressive urban planing, market size or consumer affluance, but not because there is a GA airport unless you are in the aviation field already.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 20):
Since it is the local resident we are looking out for, after wasting $1.5 million on attorney fees for an ill-advised campaign against the FAA, perhaps it is city council that should be shit canned, and not the airport.

$1.5mil is pennies on the dollar in the big picture. A single one of the two or so annual plane crashes into the community can cost in excess of $1.5mil when homes are lost.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 20):
You can't seriously be suggesting that LAX add well over 100,000 general aviation operations?

Today's biggest gripe is the jet traffic, and yes they could shift to the LAX if they can pay the fees. Rest of the GA community can melt away to the other half dozen close GA airport.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 20):
I'm curious to see a source for this, as I find it hard to believe on the noise issue, considering there is a night time curfew. I also find it hard to believe on the air pollution front considering SMO has about 300 daily operations, consisting mostly of single engine props, compared to I-405 which consists of hundreds of thousands of vehicles passing the local area daily.

For the curfew, see my comments below.

As for being major source of pollutants on the Westside, see attached story on a study from UCLA.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/19/local/me-santa-monica-air19

There was a comprehensive study by South Coast Air Quality Management District which called the airport the #1 pollutant on the Westside.

One of the problems described was the airports plateau location which spread pollutants into the atmosphere widely.

Some 150,000 folks live within 2-mile radius of the airport, so its a very dense area.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
There are noise restrictions already in place for a 24/7 maximum noise output of 95dBA, about the same of noise from road traffic on highways. There are other restrictions, like a night curfew, and no touch and gos during the weekends or at night.

Like all airports, people unfortunately ignore these restrictions, pay any fines and life goes on.

One of the problems for SMO and many other airports is the lack of power over mandatory versus recommended procedures. The airport has a "Fly Neighborly" program, but its voluntary -- for example

Voluntary Night Arrival Curfew - Although arrivals are permitted 24 hours a day, pilots are requested to avoid all operations between 11pm and 7am Monday through Friday, or until 8am on weekends.

Ultimately imo, it comes back to the aviation community for giving themselves a black eye with the community. Operating in ignorance will not help endear oneself to the residents or city.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
Recall Zamperini has successfully banned the sale of jet fuel and that limits ops (intentionally).

Yes clever folks down in Torrance. SM will be actively pursuing this option also once some contracts come up for ammandment.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
All that greenness will surely require a lot of irrigation, in arid southern California. . . just throw in some wind power and call it environmentally responsible!!!

In fairness, SoCal is very green place. Especially a city like Santa Monica.

Matter of fact the city is a leader in water recycling and reuse with its own treatment plant. The treated water used as irrigation water in public parks, medians and landscapes already.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
cxb744
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:31 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Way more people suffer with the noise and air pollution the airport generates than those that benefit from its existence.
It came out not too long ago the airport was the number one pollutant on the Westside of LA.

So the community angst has continued to grow against the airport ever stronger year after year. Also the continued string of crashes also does not help the airport endear itself to the dense nearby neighborhood.

To keep SMO open there will probably be some kind of slot control like Long Beach to curb the jet traffic. What has to be different from last time they tried this is they can't exclude certain aircraft categories. Smaller jets create a lot more of the ear-piercing noise that everyone can't stand than a G-4(which is closer to a rumble).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
HHR is trying to expand....

The problem with Hawthorne is that it is TOO close to LAX. When the ceilings drop (usually by fog [it happens more often than you think]), aircraft can't get into HHR because SoCal can't provide adequate separation between HHR's and LAX's approaches.
What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 02, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting fly4film (Reply 26):
I am used to the unconditional support the aviation community gives to aviation related topics

Blind support is never good. You should never let your interest in one thing allow it to dominate over other peoples rights. Everything must be in balance.

And I do not have an opinion if SMO should be allowed to remain open or not. Don't know anything about the local conditions.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 08, 2012 3:15 pm

The report for community visioning process which involved the city hosting a series of 32 facilitated community discussion groups over 3-months is ready.

The purpose of the community discussion groups was to engage participants about the impacts of SMO on surrounding communities and potential opportunities for change at the 227‐acre airport come 2015. The city has a unique opportunity to boldly re‐envision and repurpose the airport as alternative land uses that will more directly benefit the broader community.

Top community themes from the meetings were:
o Health Impacts
o Noise Pollution
o Increased Volume and Frequency of Jet Traffic
o Safety Concerns
o Property Devaluation
o Disproportionate Impacts Borne by Santa Monica Residents
o Airport Inconsistent with Santa Monica’s Position as a Leader in Environmental Sustainability
o Lack of Citizen Input in the Decision Making Process
o Preference for Alternative Land Uses
o Avoid Development of SMO
o Make SMO a Green Area


The spectrum of positions ultimately outlined leave the City with 5 potential options to pursue:

o Position #1: Close the Airport
o Position #2: Close the Airport Unless Firm FAA Agreement Is in Place to Reduce Impacts
o Position #3: Reduce the Airport’s Operations and Footprint
o Position #4: Maintain Airport Operations with Significant Mitigations and Improvements
o Position #5: Maintain Airport Operations with Selected Mitigations and Improvements


Based on the thematic outcomes and preferences identified, the City can now undertake internal discussions and formulate its recommodations to be adopted by the City Council later this year.

[Edited 2012-05-08 08:45:32]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6013
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 08, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
The spectrum of positions ultimately outlined leave the City with 5 potential options to pursue:

o Position #1: Close the Airport
o Position #2: Close the Airport Unless Firm FAA Agreement Is in Place to Reduce Impacts
o Position #3: Reduce the Airport’s Operations and Footprint
o Position #4: Maintain Airport Operations with Significant Mitigations and Improvements
o Position #5: Maintain Airport Operations with Selected Mitigations and Improvements


Based on the thematic outcomes and preferences identified, the City can now undertake internal discussions and formulate its recommodations to be adopted by the City Council later this year.

Honestly, beyond all the doom and gloom in some posts above, with what you show here there appears to be a good chance (I wanted to say "60-80% chance" but that's too simplistic) that it will remain open.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 08, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
Some 150,000 folks live within 2-mile radius of the airport, so its a very dense area.

Santa Monica is the highest density of affluent folks I know of in LA. By affluent, I mean $150k+ household incomes. So they will 'make noise' about the airport noise and pollution.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
Yes clever folks down in Torrance. SM will be actively pursuing this option also once some contracts come up for ammandment.

Probably.
I understand wanting to remove jet noise. But let's be clear, I live near the approach path to Zapparini and am in favor of it selling jet fuel.

Note: I do not speak this vocally as the neighbors would not take to me kindly.  
Quoting CXB744 (Reply 31):
aircraft can't get into HHR because SoCal can't provide adequate separation between HHR's and LAX's approaches.

I didn't know about this. Do you have a link? I thought a working solution had been arrived at.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 08, 2012 8:28 pm

My personal take is as step one, the city will in 2015 take back the 2/3 of land that reverts from the FAA, leaving a much smaller airport foot print with reduced runways and less aviation infrastructure. This will help make things unviable for jet ops for instance.

In addition to the above, I expect the city to concurrently work on closing down flight schools which by their nature create extra activity, and also work to eliminate fuel sales as other airports have done to help make SMO ever less attractive to potential users.

Eventually the vacated property can be re-purposed with alternate land uses that shares the community vision for open green space.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
phxa340
Posts: 985
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 08, 2012 11:47 pm

Quoting boilerla (Reply 17):
The trick is, a good portion of the land does revert back to the city. And the city can vote to biuld up that land, shortening the runways just enough that most jets can't take off. Which means, it's all nice and quiet, but the airport is dead and financially unviable for the FAA, who has no choice but to shut it down.

I believe that is incorrect. From my understanding is that the city of SM must use the land that reverts back to them for aviation purposes only. The FAA can argue that this includes active runways etc ...

I still see everyone making a stink but in the end it just becomes slot and noise restricted like SNA etc ...
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue May 22, 2012 2:12 pm

In continued action regarding the airport, the Airport Commision voted to recommend the city proceed and seek "declaratory relief" judgement from a court. Basically the airport wants a court to decide.

1. Whether the 1948 Instrument of Transfer from the federal government requiring the city to operate some form of airport "in perpetuity" is legal.
2. Whether the 1984 operating agreement and a 1994 Grant Agreement with the FAA actually expire by mid-2015. (FAA says portions expire in 2023)
3. Confirm that "City Owned Parcel" at the west end of airport and includes nearly half of the airport's lone runway falls outside the '48 mandate.

All these are steps in the direction of curbing operations or closing the airport entirely.


Additionally the airport commission voted to approve additional restrictions on operations effective later this year:
• New landing fees on all aircraft, not just those based at other airports.
• Raising landing fees to cover aviation costs. (Currently, the airport runs a deficit forcing city to use general funds to support)
• Requiring new liability insurance from all aviation operators.
• Requiring a flight operations permit for each aircraft operation.
• Using the precedents of two previous FAA cases to establish a cap on—or reduce—the number of flights.

Airport commision link
http://www.smgov.net/Departments/Air...Meetings/2012/20120516/AGENDA.aspx

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 23, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting boilerla (Reply 17):
but there's no way you could pay me to move to Playa Del Rey--the tagline for some of those condos could be "When you just cant live without the sound of a 747 in your living room".

I'd move into Surfridge in a heartbeat!

http://www.lakata.org/arch/surfridge/
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Wed May 23, 2012 5:23 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):

Hope is that what remains, a much smaller runway, and less aviation infrastructure will make the whole thing unviable and bring to an end this long community saga.

If they do that, I hope the airport decides to target itself to helicopters. Get some of those buzzing around and people will wish they had to listen to a jet landing or taking off every now and then rather than push off their problems on someone else. Or perhaps the city of Santa Monica could pay for the extra soundproofing in homes and businesses around other area airports - the extra traffic isn't going to disappear, it's just going to move elsewhere. And I feel pretty confident that the people elsewhere aren't dying to hear more airplane noise.

If they want to put extra restrictions in, I've got no problem with that. Ban jets after a certain hour, have a slot program so that the number of jet operations per hour is capped, etc. All those are sensible measures. But closing the airport entirely is just selfish NIMBYism.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Santa Monica(CA) Plans Closure Of Historic Airport

Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:57 pm

One proposal in an attempt to cut down on air traffic around Santa Monica Airport city officials are proposing to pay flight schools to either vacate the airport or take their lessons elsewhere.

Under the proposal presented to the city council involves reimbursing flight schools the cost of relocating to another airport, or paying the schools to practice pattern flying at alternate fields. Under the city council report, the city could potentially cover the average cost of $150 for a plane to get to another airport and come back in order to practice touch and go maneuvers. A test program to encourage and cover the cost of flying elsewhere could be approved in the coming 2-3 months.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California

Who is online