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zeke
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New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 1:23 pm

Received the standard Boeing PR press release about the 737 winglet proposal,


Boeing Designs Advanced Technology Winglet for 737 MAX by The Boeing Company, on Flickr

They are claiming that this will achieve an additional 1.5% fuel savings.

What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

Is this a new feature ?
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Aloha717200
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 1:33 pm

Loving that winglet. I think I like it even better than the blended winglets on today's 737s.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

I guess it's the best method for weight and cost savings. I would think they could just tweak a few inches from the bay to get it to fit.
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
They are claiming that this will achieve an additional 1.5% fuel savings.

So now the 737MAX will have between 11.5 to 13.5% improved performance. I wonder if there will be other tweaks to improve the performance even further. This kind of update could be incorporated before the MAX enters service.

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

Interesting. It looks like they have done some changes in this angle as well.

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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 1:53 pm

Is it a raked wingtip and winglet combined?
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 1:54 pm

Quoting oykie (Reply 3):
Interesting. It looks like they have done some changes in this angle as well.

Damn if that's really gonna be the final winglet setup I must say it looks really really cool!

Also in the picture of oykie the blister looks very subtle.
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet

It is interesting that Airbus have moved from a fence to a winglet, yet Boeing are moving from a winglet to a combined fence/winglet.

Are the Blended Partners designing this or is it an exclusive Boeing design?
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:05 pm

With Airbus going for a blended winglet on the A320 family I thought things were going to get really boring with winglet designs but this looks very interesting. The MD-11 winglet was always my favourite so I hope we actually get to see this on the MAX.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:08 pm

This m ight just be my eyes playing tricks on me, or I have missed an announcement somewhere along the way...

Is the rear fuselage (behind the wing box) widened and more square? It looks like the belly of the plane leading up to the tail is much more square that a normal 737 fuselage.

If I'm not way overthinking this... is the 737-MAX being prepped to take containers in the rear cargo space?
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 4):
Is it a raked wingtip and winglet combined?

Sure looks like it. There was talk earlier about the possibility of raked wingtips on the 737MAX, but I never imagined it would be in combination with the blended winglet.   

I'm glad about it though. I've done a few plane spotting classes to friends and I taught them to distinguish the 737 from the A320 by the winglets... With the A320 getting sharklets, it kind of ruined that.    Glad Boeing gives the the 737 now this, errr, raked winglet?   

Quoting planesailing (Reply 6):
Are the Blended Partners designing this or is it an exclusive Boeing design?

I'm pretty sure this will remain a Boeing exclusive for a while, if not it would have been kept secret a little bit longer - and we might see it on the NEO otherwise   
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
They are claiming that this will achieve an additional 1.5% fuel savings.

What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

Is this a new feature ?

On the MD-11, the lower portion of the winglet seems to be foreward the upper portion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KL...as_MD-11_PH-KCK_Ingrid_Bergman.jpg

This new Boeing modified design seems to have the lower portion abeam the upper portion, and nopt bend down as much of an angle as on the MD-11.

Zeke could be right about the blister on the lower nose of the B-737-8MAX he posted. But I don't see it on the B-737-9MAX picture oykie posted.

Either way, the MAX design is still a long way from frozen, as we all know. For all we know, none of these features could show up on the final design. Remember the first drawings of the B-787 from Boeing had a different nose section and vertical stabilizer.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 8):

This m ight just be my eyes playing tricks on me, or I have missed an announcement somewhere along the way...

yes ... Boeing announced a few weeks ago that they have modified the tailcone section of the fuselage making it flatter and longer (among other changes) ... basically they are cleaning up any aerodynamic inefficiencies that they can find in the 737 design

[Edited 2012-05-02 07:40:49]
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:40 pm

I've been curious as to which winglet change Boeing would implement. I find this interesting just as Airbus is committing to sharklets. This will probably force Airbus to update their winglet offering sooner than prior plan...


Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
They are claiming that this will achieve an additional 1.5% fuel savings.

That is impressive. The original APB winglets exceeded all expectations. Boeing needed to do this.

I'm personally curious as to what weight reduction will occur. I know of more than a few engineers who have been brought on for commercial aircraft weight reduction. After the 748 and 788, they could be employed on the MAX...

Quoting oykie (Reply 3):
I wonder if there will be other tweaks to improve the performance even further.

One of several. For example, the tailcone will look more like the A320's than the current 737NG's.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 5):
Also in the picture of oykie the blister looks very subtle.

It does, I doubt it will be that subtle in the final form.  
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
But I don't see it on the B-737-9MAX picture oykie posted.

It is there, but the rendering obscures it. Something has to be done for the longer nose gear...


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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:41 pm

many more renderings from different angles here, BTW, http://www.newairplane.com/737max/gallery/#/7
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:44 pm



I'd be worried about transonic effets between them but maybe thats how they work?

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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:46 pm

Wow. I love it! 


Hopefully it stays this way.   
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 2:52 pm

Probably the marketing effect will be much greater than induced drag reduction improvement...
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 3:10 pm

We also have not heard much on the hybrid laminar flow control testing that Boeing started about a year ago... It was hoped to provide an additional 1% of drag reduction, I believe??
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 3:14 pm

Well, allow me to be the first one to say: that looks terrible, I hate it.
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Hamlet69
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
Received the standard Boeing PR press release about the 737 winglet proposal,

     

Love it! I had pondered weather Boeing was eventually going to go this direction. In a previous thread about the MAX, I included a link to APB's ideas around the 'Next Generation' of winglet. Looks like the only thing Boeing didn't adopt (yet) from that proposal was the "scimitar" ends.

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
Something has to be done for the longer nose gear...

We'll obviously have to see what truly gets built. However, from the updated renderings found at http://www.newairplane.com, it appears that it is limited to a bulge on the nose gear door.


Regards,

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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 3:21 pm

Quite a cool video in Boeing's website: http://www.newairplane.com/737max/video/

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

I thought that was interesting too.
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 19):

We'll obviously have to see what truly gets built. However, from the updated renderings found at http://www.newairplane.com, it appears that it is limited to a bulge on the nose gear door.

Yes, there is a bulge but it's not as pronounced as on the 330F.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 3:47 pm

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?


... isn't all that comparable to:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Weimeng



If A330F has a blister, at best the MAX has a bump or a knock.

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
Is this a new feature ?

Some nose gear rework has been discussed for quite a while, but I think this is the first time we're seeing a good rendering.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
I'm personally curious as to what weight reduction will occur. I know of more than a few engineers who have been brought on for commercial aircraft weight reduction. After the 748 and 788, they could be employed on the MAX...

I would think they'd be directed towards the 789. Boeing's CEO is crowing that the weight reduction on the 789 is making it easy to do the 7810.

Quoting dash500 (Reply 16):
Probably the marketing effect will be much greater than induced drag reduction improvement...

Seems the word "shark" has to get worked in. We've already had shark fin for the orignal 787 tail, and sharklet for Airbus's winglet, so we can have shark nose for the new 737MAX.

I call dibs on shark nose!
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:06 pm

The beauty contest A320NEO and 737Max has a clear winner   Really a beautiful aircraft !!!
Hope my home carrier Air Berlin will order them !!!
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 20):
Quite a cool video in Boeing's website: http://www.newairplane.com/737max/video/

What caught my attention in that video was the wing flex. Seemed pretty substantial compared to today's 737. Is Boeing changing the wing? I didn't think they were or at least I hadn't seen that anywhere.
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:14 pm

That looks great! at first seeing the new winglet was a little jarring, but looking at the Boeing video, that new design looks great. I wonder if it will show up on other aircraft soon.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 8):
Is the rear fuselage (behind the wing box) widened and more square? It looks like the belly of the plane leading up to the tail is much more square that a normal 737 fuselage.

A new tailcone has been part of the 737MAX ever since they went public with it.

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 8):

If I'm not way overthinking this... is the 737-MAX being prepped to take containers in the rear cargo space?

I think there's zero chance they're altering the baggage hold since that would alter the basic fuselage cross-section. That would be a much bigger deal than just changing the tail cone.

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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 24):

What caught my attention in that video was the wing flex. Seemed pretty substantial compared to today's 737. Is Boeing changing the wing? I didn't think they were or at least I hadn't seen that anywhere.

Don't think you can go by that until the real thing is built.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 18):
I hate it.
Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 19):
Love it!

The difference in one post: love vs hate! Classic!  
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 27):
Don't think you can go by that until the real thing is built.

Actually you can't be sure how big the bump on the "shark nose" (tm) will be till it is built either.
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 18):
Well, allow me to be the first one to say: that looks terrible, I hate it.

Have to agree. I don't think it looks anywhere close to as elegant a solution as the blended winglet.
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:45 pm

Looks great!! Yep, "tiny" bulge up front is probably to accommodate gear growth. From video I see they're sticking with traditional window shades and not tint like 787?
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:46 pm

What a change from the Me 262-like hotrod that was frolicking over Lake Washington in the fall of '67! Imagine what military jets would be like if, say, the F-4 had been "tweaked" for 50 years.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):
What grabbed my attention was not the MD-11 style winglet, it was the blister for the nose wheel like the A330F ?

Is this a new feature ?

Boeing has stated they needed to mount the strut lower in the fuselage, so maybe that is where the new strut mounting will be. It looks like the mounting point still allows enough articulation for the gear to fit in the original bay (or they moved stuff around to allow it to fit), so Boeing doesn't need a blister to cover the wheels ala the A330-200F.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 5):
I must say it looks really really cool!



  

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Zeke could be right about the blister on the lower nose of the B-737-8MAX he posted. But I don't see it on the B-737-9MAX picture oykie posted.



The rendering hides it a bit in the picture, but in the video, you can clearly see that some changes has been made for accommodating the nose gear.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
One of several. For example, the tailcone will look more like the A320's than the current 737NG's.



   It seems almost like a baby 787 with that tailcone, but I believe that efficiency is already a part of the 10-12% offered initially? With the new Wingfence/lets the MAX will get 11.5 to 13.5% better than todays 737NG and I was wondering if Boeing will do anything more than what we already have confirmed?

Quoting mffoda (Reply 17):
We also have not heard much on the hybrid laminar flow control testing that Boeing started about a year ago... It was hoped to provide an additional 1% of drag reduction, I believe??



According to FlightGlobal there is hybrid laminar flow vertical stabiliser. Not sure if this is confirmed yet.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...guration-of-re-engined-737-361282/

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 25):
That looks great! at first seeing the new winglet was a little jarring, but looking at the Boeing video, that new design looks great. I wonder if it will show up on other aircraft soon.



At first I was surprised by the look, but after seeing the video this plane will look nice with the new winglet and larger engines!
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 5:06 pm

Nice vid... great marketing..  http://www.newairplane.com/737max/video/

This is great... as time passes by the NEO will indeed face a solid competitor.

We've underestimated Boeing in their plans with the MAX when you compare it to the NEO. However, introducing new technologies such as redesigned winglets to the short body is a game changer.

As for schedule, I do see scope creep happening already so I am willing to bet there will be delays to this program in order to keep this plane competitive or surpass the NEO.
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 5:47 pm

All of the Videos and Photos of course are highly stylized. However, one element that always appears are highly polished windshield frames. It really helps to alleviate what some consider a dated design and compliments the polished nacelle inlets.

I know that I overstate the appearance of the 6 windows that comprise Section 41 of the airplane. However, from a passenger standpoint, that is the view you get as the airplane sits attached to the jetway. You are cued up in line and all you see is the front end of the plane.

Its awful to see a 737 with lots of huge paint chips around those frames. If the 6 window frames of Section41 were delivered polished up and occasionally cleaned up/shined up, it would improve the looks.

I also appreciate that although the nacelles are still a bit squat on the bottom, the inlets appear almost perfectly round. Its accentuated by polished/brushed metal. You dont get the sense that it is a compromised installation at all.

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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 6:03 pm

Interesting winglet design, I kinda like it! Though it looks a bit weird from the bottom. The video posted in opinion was very well done, so these will be called the MAX AT winglets, according to the video is the most advanced technology winglet. Seems like the 737 MAX is really taking shape now 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 6:06 pm

Let's wait a few redesigns more and it will probably look like this:

http://www.netmoon.com/starwars/image/ships/tiedv.jpg
 
PlaneAdmirer
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 6:16 pm

Could the new winglet make the transition to the current NG?
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 6:21 pm

The winglets look awesome. Boeing won't go wrong if the Max looks more and more like B787. It is sure to be a winner.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 6:21 pm

Can someone explain what this wingtip device does (aerodynamically) without resorting to too many equations?

Quoting boeingbus (Reply 34):
This is great... as time passes by the NEO will indeed face a solid competitor.

Except that there is nothing to stop Airbus from installing similar wingtip devices on the NEO. There is nothing to stop them from trying their own hybrid laminar flow design.

Quoting boeingbus (Reply 34):
We've underestimated Boeing in their plans with the MAX when you compare it to the NEO. However, introducing new technologies such as redesigned winglets to the short body is a game changer.

I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to call it a game changer. Spiroids might be game changers, but as I pointed out above, if you build a better mousetrap, someone will build a better mouse.

One concern I have is the exclusive use of the LEAP. I'm concerned that the GTF might have more room for optimization than LEAP, which would wind up giving Airbus the competitive advantage.

BTW, did anyone else notice that the model in the video has a fairly prominent tail skid?
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 6:23 pm

This helps explain the prolonged effort in the wind tunnel in Farnborough; Boeing has had ongoing 737 activities in the UK low speed tunnel since last year. Longer than I would expect it would take them to perform the new aero-propulsion integration for the LEAP engine. However, if they have been performing testing for a new winglet development program, the scale of the wind tunnel testing seems much more appropriate.
 
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Stitch
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 40):
Except that there is nothing to stop Airbus from installing similar wingtip devices on the NEO.

If Boeing has patented them, that could be an issue. Airbus and Aviation Partners are still fighting it out in the courts over whether or not the sharklets infringe upon AP patents.
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 19):
We'll obviously have to see what truly gets built. However, from the updated renderings found at http://www.newairplane.com, it appears that it is limited to a bulge on the nose gear door.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
I would think they'd be directed towards the 789.

Some will be. Most of the 788 weight reduction is being done with intent to keep the same parts for the 789. But the 748 weight reduction engineers will be available...    Some of the 788/789 team will be available in time for the MAX. Perhaps not EIS aircraft, but later examples.

Quoting oykie (Reply 33):
but I believe that efficiency is already a part of the 10-12% offered initially? With the new Wingfence/lets the MAX will get 11.5 to 13.5% better than todays 737NG and I was wondering if Boeing will do anything more than what we already have confirmed?

You are correct. I'm hearing rumors, but nothing of substance other than minor weight reduction or system simplification efforts. Some (most?) are already known and part of the 11.5% to 13.% envelope.

Quoting boeingbus (Reply 34):
Nice vid... great marketing..  http://www.newairplane.com/737max/video/

Excellent marketing video. Thank you for sharing.

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 35):
You dont get the sense that it is a compromised installation at all.

Look at the video. Notice the small gap between the top of the engine and the wing. That is where the compromises due to compressible effects will happen. Its not so bad on the engine underside...

Lightsaber
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ODwyerPW
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Look at the video. Notice the small gap between the top of the engine and the wing. That is where the compromises due to compressible effects will happen. Its not so bad on the engine underside...

Lightsaber

No question there may be performance compromises.

I was simply refering to the first impression you get from a 737Classic or 737NG nacelle, where even Joe 6-pack might think: "Yeah, they really had squash that thing to get it to fit!"

When you look at the 737Max nacelle, the reaction might be: "Yeah, they pulled allot of unnecessary weight out of that thing, look at the space saving design!"

The near round nacelle inlet of the 737Max doesn't look "crammed to fit". I'm rather impressed by how much better this engine/nacelle looks than the previous versions.

Again, I know appearances arent everything, but the windshield and engine nacelles are the items that customers stare at when looking out the window as the que up to enter the jet bridge. And unfortunately for the 737, those were the ugly parts.

This thread is about winglets. The NG winglets were always striking, but these are something else. I agree with the poster that Boeing will get allot of marketing mileage out of these things, well beyond the 1.5% increased efficiency they provide. I really like them.

[Edited 2012-05-02 11:45:21]

[Edited 2012-05-02 11:45:54]
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 35):

I also appreciate that although the nacelles are still a bit squat on the bottom, the inlets appear almost perfectly round. Its accentuated by polished/brushed metal. You dont get the sense that it is a compromised installation at all.

I agree, they look "normal" (no offense NG) looks like a well rounded aircraft.

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 44):
This thread is about winglets. The NG winglets were always striking, but these are something else. I agree with the poster that Boeing will get allot of marketing mileage out of these things, well beyond the 1.5% increased efficiency they provide. I really like them.

I agree again, but getting extra bonus points for marketing hype is good. Keep up the good work Boeing!

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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 7:11 pm

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 35):
All of the Videos and Photos of course are highly stylized. However, one element that always appears are highly polished windshield frames. It really helps to alleviate what some consider a dated design and compliments the polished nacelle inlets.

I had a similar feeling when watching the video. I'd start to think "what a kewl new airplane!" when I'd see that extra kink in the tail along the upper fuselage, going back to the original 737 because they needed a bit more resistance to yaw but didn't want to redo the tail. I'd have that same feeling again till I saw yet again that covering the wheels hadn't "earned its way onto the airplane" yet. And so on.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 40):
Can someone explain what this wingtip device does (aerodynamically) without resorting to too many equations?

Wings work by the lift created by the difference in pressure between the flow on the top of the wing (which has a longer path to travel in the same amount of time) vs the flow under the wing (shorter path).

This makes the air above the wing less dense, so the airplane literally gets sucked up, that's how wings lift.

At the tip of the wing the air isn't being separated any more, so it becomes turbulent and this creates drag.

All the winglets do is keep the flows separated longer so much less of it is turbulent.

Some air at the tip spills up, some spills down. Apparently they've found putting the downward device in the airflow cleans things up even more.

A bit long-winded, but see, no equations!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Look at the video. Notice the small gap between the top of the engine and the wing. That is where the compromises due to compressible effects will happen. Its not so bad on the engine underside...

Yes, I noticed that on the video too.
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 7:26 pm

Sorry, I don't like those winglets.. much prefer the current ones..

Also, does anyone know what impact it has on fuel consumption, not having landing gear covers on the belly of the aircraft? I guess it must be very little since Boeing has not done something about it..
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting zeke (Thread starter):

I like it. Two thumbs up!!      
 
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RE: New 737 Max Winglet

Wed May 02, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Look at the video. Notice the small gap between the top of the engine and the wing. That is where the compromises due to compressible effects will happen. Its not so bad on the engine underside...

On the other hand, that interface looks just about the same as on the 787, an airframe designed specifically with this type of engine mounting configuration.
What the...?