76er
Topic Author
Posts: 446
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 2:31 pm

 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 2:34 pm

Well, KE airliners may just have to rely more on their INS systems.
 
YVRFlyer
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:19 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 6:10 pm

What's really disturbing is that the GPS jammers are small, truck-mounted devices. If the North Koreans could refit it on a small submarine, they could really cause havoc out in the North Pacific, where busy air routes run, and there are few radio navaids to backup, with LORAN no longer available.
YVRFlyer
 
txjim
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:44 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 6:48 pm

When I first read of this problem I discounted the severity until I talked to our airframe antenna folks. From an aircraft nav standpoint I imagined the fuselage of the aircraft would effectively shield the GPS reception but was reminded that omni antennas are used to maintain contact during manovering. As a rough example, an aircraft 5 miles up could be impacted by a transmission truck roughly 25 miles away on the beam. It also would not take very sophisticated equipment as all one has to do is prevent lock on the GPS signals.

Please note, however, that military coms require GPS fixes as well. This is probably the real reason that the North is messing with this.

[Edited 2012-05-02 12:11:37]
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4033
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 7:12 pm

Well, theres no international law that protects GPS so NK aren't technically doing anything illegal or wrong - they are just using the same frequency, its just an issue because so many things have become reliant on a weak and easily blocked service.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 7:37 pm

It will probably cause more havoc for commercial ground-based users than civil air traffic    You don't know how many things (cell towers, power generating stations, etc.) rely on the hyper-accurate clock from the GPS system to do things you don't even think about, like keeping generators in synch with the rest of the power grid. I worked at a company ages ago, where I was a firmware engineer, and we designed a hyper-accurate clock for industrial use. Guess what it used to keep itself in sync  
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
User avatar
c172akula
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:53 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting YVRFlyer (Reply 2):
What's really disturbing is that the GPS jammers are small, truck-mounted devices. If the North Koreans could refit it on a small submarine, they could really cause havoc out in the North Pacific

I'd love to guess how long those NK subs would last before a USN SSN paid them a visit and made them "disappear".
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4033
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
You don't know how many things (cell towers, power generating stations, etc.) rely on the hyper-accurate clock from the GPS system to do things you don't even think about, like keeping generators in synch with the rest of the power grid. I worked at a company ages ago, where I was a firmware engineer, and we designed a hyper-accurate clock for industrial use. Guess what it used to keep itself in sync  

I hope you applied the leap seconds, and didn't just use the timing signal - Google didn't with Android, so every Android phone and tablet out there that uses GPS to set the device time (99% of them) is going to be 15 seconds or so slow 
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
Well, theres no international law that protects GPS so NK aren't technically doing anything illegal or wrong

GPS falls under the International Telecommunication Union jurisdiction which is a United Nations organization. North Korea is a member state.

Whether or not it is an act of war or other aggression is up to interpretation, but blocking GPS signals does violate UN policies.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
strfyr51
Posts: 2083
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting YVRFlyer (Reply 2):

All those airplanes on the Pacific still have HF and from HF ypu can get a Directional Cut if necessary. GPS while Important is NOT the be all to End all. No airplane Yet has been certified without Inertials..
 
mmedford
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:54 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 8:53 pm

Exactly... INS while Enroute and during approach/departure we still have ground based navaids to rely on.
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11747
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting YVRFlyer (Reply 2):
If the North Koreans could refit it on a small submarine, they could really cause havoc out in the North Pacific, where busy air routes run, and there are few radio navaids to backup, with LORAN no longer available.

Transmitter is the same as broadcasting "target here." A submarine is in international waters and is thus going to be a very different political situation than targeting something on North Korean soil.

That said, with the current state of North Korean industrial development, the trucks should be easy to target due to the relative lack of other radio signals. It isn't as if North and South Korea do not lob artillery at each other anyway... Let's face it, they are legally still at war. When things get tense, knock out a few trucks for practice.

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 7):
I'd love to guess how long those NK subs would last before a USN SSN paid them a visit and made them "disappear".

I somehow doubt North Korean subs could make it out to sea undetected. To transmit, they would have to be near the surface and that would be time for a US ship to 'mistakenly ram' the sub.

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 5):
I think that North Korea needs a hefty EMP blast.

Umm... that would do far more than neighboring South Korea. Seriously, what does an EMP blast do to a 1950s Soviet truck or a draft animal?

To me this just says North Korea doesn't want aid. I feel for their common people.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
Umm... that would do far more than neighboring South Korea. Seriously, what does an EMP blast do to a 1950s Soviet truck or a draft animal?

So it would have to be a precision strike. And it would eff up the jammers and whatever technology they have managed to round up.

Really it was a joke, but it seems that their jammers could be overpowered by whatever the USA or South Korea has.
I can drive faster than you
 
bennett123
Posts: 7426
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 9:10 pm

Would an EMP strike knock out all of South Korea as well.

Sort of an own goal.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
I somehow doubt North Korean subs could make it out to sea undetected. To transmit, they would have to be near the surface and that would be time for a US ship to 'mistakenly ram' the sub.

No need. All you have to do is scare it off (which the US Navy should be perfectly capable of doing) and the problem will be solved.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11747
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 10:15 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 9):
Whether or not it is an act of war or other aggression is up to interpretation, but blocking GPS signals does violate UN policies.

That it would. But somehow North Korea probably wouldn't care...

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
No need. All you have to do is scare it off (which the US Navy should be perfectly capable of doing) and the problem will be solved

You're no fun.   Actually, some of the US ships are now equipped with acoustic weapons that (theoretically) could be used to create a malfunction in the subs engines. If one isn't going to play nice...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
oneskyjet
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:46 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 10:37 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Well, KE airliners may just have to rely more on their INS systems.

KAL 007: been there, done that.
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 920
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Wed May 02, 2012 10:43 pm

Its not that hard to block GPS.

EWR was having short, almost daily outages. Figured out there was a trucker who was operating a $33 GPS jamming to block the tracker system on his Semi. Guys route took him past EWR on the turnpike almost everyday.

http://www.ion.org/meetings/abstract.cfm?meetingID=34&pid=359&t=C&s=3
 
BMI727
Posts: 11094
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Well, KE airliners may just have to rely more on their INS systems.

That's caused problems before...

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 5):

I think that North Korea needs a hefty EMP blast.

To do what? North Korea doesn't have that much stuff that could be destroyed simply because their technology is that far behind.

Actually, western intelligence was a bit unnerved to find out the MiG-31 used so many vacuum tubes, thinking that the USSR was planning on some post-nuclear war flying as the older technology is less susceptible to EMP.

Quoting moo (Reply 4):

Well, theres no international law that protects GPS so NK aren't technically doing anything illegal or wrong -

You could probably conjure up something about interfering with navigation in international waters or airspace.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
SEA
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 12:55 am

North Korea don't have a sub with enough range to really do this usefully in the Pacific anyway.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 5):
I think that North Korea needs a hefty EMP blast.

Ja, North Korea's fleet of wood-burning (yes) trucks and hundreds of telephones will really feel the heat of an EMP blast. What was that, South Korea? We can't hear you!
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
iFlyLOTs
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:45 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting Reply 17):
KAL 007: been there, done that.

thought the exact same thing.. But it doesn't sound like its too much of a threat right now
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
User avatar
9MMPQ
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:00 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 6:28 am

I'm not sure but didn't the South Koreans already come across this during some military exercises along the border ?

Quoting YVRFlyer (Reply 2):
If the North Koreans could refit it on a small submarine, they could really cause havoc out in the North Pacific, where busy air routes run

Others already have made valid observations about the problems a submarine would face but if i'm reading the range examples of the jamming technology you'd either have to extend that range by a lot or you'd end up having to dot the Pacific with submarines. I'd say it might make a nice story for the North Korean press but that's about it.

Quoting ADent (Reply 18):
EWR was having short, almost daily outages. Figured out there was a trucker who was operating a $33 GPS jamming to block the tracker system on his Semi. Guys route took him past EWR on the turnpike almost everyday.

Certainly compared to the effort needed to track this guy down  it makes a wonderful example of how easily such a system, that we have come to use for a lot of things, can be messed with.
I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
 
United727
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:26 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 6:35 am

All in all, this goes back to the basics....All flight crews should be able to remember basic pilotage. Time and time again remarks has been made on the Next Generation of pilots (and even some of the old timers) relying solely or just too much on electronics while flying. All flight crews should be mandated to prove they can fly "Raw Data" or without extraordinary electronic guidance. Correct?
 
User avatar
TripleDelta
Crew
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 9:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
Actually, western intelligence was a bit unnerved to find out the MiG-31 used so many vacuum tubes, thinking that the USSR was planning on some post-nuclear war flying as the older technology is less susceptible to EMP.

Just a small correction, that was the MiG-25. One of the main reasons the designers had settled on tubes was that they were far easier to repair - i.e. replace - than anything else out in the wilderness of the USSR's border airbases. The MiG-31's avionics are based on modern integrated circuits .
No plane, no gain.
 
777fan
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 9:35 am

Quoting mmedford (Reply 11):
Exactly... INS while Enroute and during approach/departure we still have ground based navaids to rely on.
Quoting United727 (Reply 24):
All in all, this goes back to the basics....All flight crews should be able to remember basic pilotage.

The bigger issue would be precision (non-GPS) approaches to ICN which is frequently subjected to dense fog and whose approaches sit precariously close to the contested coastal islands and the Nouth Korean side of the Northern Limit Line (the extension of the infamous DMZ - check your navaids!). North Korea has historically demonstrated a propensity to disregard international law - this activity is an indication of that - and instigate provocations with the intent of goading South Korea into conflict (refer to the torpedoing of a South Korean frigate in its own waters and the shelling of one of the aforementioned islands).

I can't help but wonder if North Korea is attempting to bait a South Korean or American commercial airliner into inadvertently crossing into North Korean airspace with the intent of shooting it down (possible) and/or intercepting it (less likely).

777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
AviRaider
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:07 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting YVRFlyer (Reply 2):
. If the North Koreans could refit it on a small submarine, they could really cause havoc out in the North Pacific, where busy air routes run, and there are few radio navaids to backup, with LORAN no longer available.

I read an article a while back about North Korea and it mentioned that NK submarines often run out of fuel while out on patrol and have to be towed back to base. I don't think we have to worry about NK submarines.
 
SEA
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 26):
I read an article a while back about North Korea and it mentioned that NK submarines often run out of fuel while out on patrol and have to be towed back to base. I don't think we have to worry about NK submarines.

Like I said above, they don't have anywhere near the range. Their longest-range subs have 1,500 mile range, which is nothing. They are WWII Russian design, built by China. Most of their subs can't even make it around the Korean Peninsula from the east coast to the west coast.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Thu May 03, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting United727 (Reply 23):
All flight crews should be mandated to prove they can fly "Raw Data" or without extraordinary electronic guidance.

Where do you think that data comes from? If you're doing anything RNAV related (and there are many arrival and departure procedures out of ICN that are), even if you're flying raw data, that data will be based off of some sort of RNAV navigation system, which in some cases will be GPS.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
F9Fan
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:42 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:10 am

Just when I thought the DPRK couldn't get any dumber.

Quoting Reply 16):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):Well, KE airliners may just have to rely more on their INS systems.

KAL 007: been there, done that.

Well, at least the Russians should be a little more understanding now.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
Quoting rlwynn (Reply 5):I think that North Korea needs a hefty EMP blast.
Umm... that would do far more than neighboring South Korea. Seriously, what does an EMP blast do to a 1950s Soviet truck or a draft animal?

Not to mention the Chinese, who aren't too thrilled with us at the moment.
 
mmedford
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:54 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Fri May 04, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 17):

LOL, I didn't even think that got published...

I knew the rfi team, poor trucker just didn't want his boss to know when he took breaks.

Had engineers from FAA, PANYNJ, FCC & the contractor...chasing their tails for a long time on that one.
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
Semaex
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Fri May 04, 2012 6:45 pm

Personally, I take this report with a little bit of salt. Speculation, rough guesses and not a single evidence on North Korean interference.
Not guilty until proven.

Quoting Reply 16):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Well, KE airliners may just have to rely more on their INS systems.

KAL 007: been there, done that.

KAL007 was a lot of human error. I wouldn't blame the INS on it. It's a very reliable way of navigation, with an accuracy of less than a kilometer. Not as good as GPS obviously, but good enough for long range flights. And upon arrival and departure to an airport systems such as DMEs, VORs and ILS approaches are always a good backup whenever GPS is unreliable. Hard to believe but the truth: There was a time when GPS didn't exist, and people still got around.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: North Korea Jamming GPS Signal?

Fri May 04, 2012 8:15 pm

Some years ago the German government wanted to introduce a GPS based toll system for cars, which would have required a mandatory GPS unit in stalled in cars, which would then log all routes travelled and then transmit them to the tax authorities. Some people, who were worried about the loss of privacy, built small GPS jammers and hid them e.g. on hilltops to show how vulnerable the system is. The unit was quite small, just about the size of a sandwich box plus a car battery for power. Also, since GPS operates in the GHz range, the antennas are very small. Total value of such an (illegal) jammer: less than $100.
And in a suitable location (on top of a hill or a high building), it could jam the GPS signals for a radius of 50 km or more.

Jan

[Edited 2012-05-04 13:18:18]

[Edited 2012-05-04 13:19:03]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: alski, ArtV, ba319-131, brilondon, dn280tls, flyDTW1992, GRIVely, hinckley, lcycs300, ordpia, Putnik, rj968, SCQ83 and 306 guests