BLIKSEM
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Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Wed May 02, 2012 5:52 pm

There has been some speculation & chat on an aviation web site in South Africa called Avcom about South African considering Boeing wide bodies to replace their A346's. Does anybody have any more solid info on the subject?

[Edited 2012-05-02 10:56:29]
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Wed May 02, 2012 6:01 pm

Can the LR do NYC-JNB? Any current routes that could not be done with a 77L? 77W?
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Wed May 02, 2012 6:05 pm

The 77L should be able to handle the 7,969 mi trip between JFK and JNB. Whether it incurs penalty on the JNB to JFK leg due to the altitude, someone else will need to answer.

The 77W could do it but I suspect it will take a decent weight penalty to make the trip.
 
steex
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Wed May 02, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
The 77L should be able to handle the 7,969 mi trip between JFK and JNB. Whether it incurs penalty on the JNB to JFK leg due to the altitude, someone else will need to answer.

It can't be too bad - the 77L flies JNB-ATL daily and that's 470 statute miles longer than JNB-JFK.
 
BLIKSEM
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Wed May 02, 2012 6:12 pm

I understand that they are also looking to replace their A343's. Perhaps they might consider B787's.
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Wed May 02, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
The 77L should be able to handle the 7,969 mi trip between JFK and JNB. Whether it incurs penalty on the JNB to JFK leg due to the altitude, someone else will need to answer.

I think there will be weight penalty as tire speed is the limiting factor, as it is in ADD. Though JNB is not as high as ADD, it is further from JFK than ADD is (7200 mi ADD-IAD) and the ET flight on 77L has to make a stop at FCO on the westbound leg.

However, DL flies JNB-ATL nonstop on a 77L as well, but not sure if they are weight restricted or not? And according to GC mapper, JNB-ATL is 8439mi so really long stretch.

Really good question, hope others have the answer.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Wed May 02, 2012 6:22 pm

Maybe they're looking at the 747-8?

It will hold more people than the A340-600 and it has four engines. It will lift a good bit more payload by weight than the A340-600, but it will come up a bit short on volume (both to having four less LD3 positions and needing to devote more LD3 positions to bags).
 
SA744
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 6:29 am

I would love to see Boeing in SAA colours again, who knows what will happen, they will eventually have to upgrade the fleet and with the A340 not being built anymore im guessing we might see Boeing back in the mix. We will just have to wait and see as SAA usually do take time in making decisions....
 
columba
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 6:36 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Maybe they're looking at the 747-8?

It will hold more people than the A340-600 and it has four engines. It will lift a good bit more payload by weight than the A340-600, but it will come up a bit short on volume (both to having four less LD3 positions and needing to devote more LD3 positions to bags).

I can imagine that they are seiously considering that option.
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DALCE
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 11:04 am

and more 346's at the Horizon for LX 
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jfk777
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 11:42 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
The 77L should be able to handle the 7,969 mi trip between JFK and JNB. Whether it incurs penalty on the JNB to JFK leg due to the altitude, someone else will need to answer.

Delta's Johannesberg to Atlanta flight is about 500 miles longer, so JFK should be very manageable. SAA with a fleet of 777LR, 77W and 787-9 would be great.
 
columba
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:04 pm

Well Boeing said that they are talking with several airlines about the 747-8I. The 747-8I would offer several advantages. It is a bit larger than the A346 which they are currently using. SA could increase capacity without having to got to the A380 which might be too big for them. Secondly another advantage the better hot and high performance in comparision with the 77W.

I could see SA as a potential 747-8I customer !!
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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garpd
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:10 pm

I feel my artistic finger twitching.. 77L, 787 and 748i in SA colours... mmm....
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columba
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:32 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 12):
77L, 787 and 748i in SA colours... mmm....

I see no need for the 77L.....the 787 can do most of the desired missions just fine  
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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garpd
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 13):

Just going by what people are talking here, I'm not talking about real life possibilities, just fanciful ideas.
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columba
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 1:05 pm

SA just took delivery of some A330s if I recall correctly so no real need for the 787 right now, but on the other hand Boeing could offer SA a sweet deal on 747-8Is and 787s.

I doubt that SA will jump on the 777 wagon now, so if they replace their A346 soon I believe the 747-8Is seems to be the most logical choice.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
SA744
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 1:27 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 15):
Quoting columba (Reply 15):
SA just took delivery of some A330s if I recall correctly so no real need for the 787 right now, but on the other hand Boeing could offer SA a sweet deal on 747-8Is and 787s.

I doubt that SA will jump on the 777 wagon now, so if they replace their A346 soon I believe the 747-8Is seems to be the most logical choice.

Well i hope so remember when they stopped flying the 744 it was because of "high fuel burn", so if the 748i is better on fuel then maybe they will consider it or they might order A350( i know they said they were partial to airbus the political circumstance i dont know, but decision might rest on whoever is CEO by the time fleet renewal comes along.
 
jfk777
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 15):
SA just took delivery of some A330s if I recall correctly so no real need for the 787 right now, but on the other hand Boeing could offer SA a sweet deal on 747-8Is and 787s.

I doubt that SA will jump on the 777 wagon now, so if they replace their A346 soon I believe the 747-8Is seems to be the most logical choice.

SAA has two levels of long haul that could be handled by two different plane types. The European flights which are about 10-11 hours can be flown be A330-200 and then longer flights to the USA, Brazil, EZE, Peking, HKG and Australia which a 777 can handle, A 748 would be nice but perhaps too big for SAA.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 11):
I could see SA as a potential 747-8I customer !!
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
hen longer flights to the USA, Brazil, EZE, Peking, HKG and Australia which a 777 can handle, A 748 would be nice but perhaps too big for SAA.

I think (and this is only my opinion) that the 777-800X (and maybe the -900X) would be better options. I know we are still a long way from them becoming a reality, but I could see SA more interested in those than in the 748i. Let's not forget the A350-900XWB either.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
I think (and this is only my opinion) that the 777-800X (and maybe the -900X) would be better options. I know we are still a long way from them becoming a reality, but I could see SA more interested in those than in the 748i. Let's not forget the A350-900XWB either.


With ETOPS-330, SA could fly anywhere from JNB with a twin (though missions to Australia would be longer due to having to fly an ETOPS-240{?} route). However, they all likely will encounter some type of field performance limits out of JNB that would impact payload due to single-engine out.

The A380-800 and 747-8 wouldn't have these issues, however with such a small A340-600 fleet, I wonder if either plane would really match well with their traffic patterns.

[Edited 2012-05-04 10:27:23]
 
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garpd
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 5:26 pm

Here we go, itch well and truly scratched

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Gingersnap
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
I think (and this is only my opinion) that the 777-800X (and maybe the -900X) would be better options. I know we are still a long way from them becoming a reality, but I could see SA more interested in those than in the 748i. Let's not forget the A350-900XWB either.

It's all about the single-engine performance out of JNB. This is why SA favoured the A340 series initially.

I'm going with the B748i for SA.
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EddieDude
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 21):
It's all about the single-engine performance out of JNB. This is why SA favoured the A340 series initially.

I'm going with the B748i for SA.

I understand that, but twin-engined aircraft are getting more and more advanced, and the next generation long-haul aircraft such as the 777-X and the A350XWB will most likely have better performance ex-hot and high airports than the current 777 and A330 families.

The 748i would give the range to fly to Australia, NY, etc., comfortably, but isn't it too big? After all, SA decided to retire its 744s and leave the A346 as the largest plane on the fleet. The 748i would represent an jump in seating capacity that perhaps SA does not need. If the 777-800X and the A350-900XWB can fly the same missions with less fuel burn, wouldn't they be a more sensible choice?
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larshjort
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 22):
I understand that, but twin-engined aircraft are getting more and more advanced, and the next generation long-haul aircraft such as the 777-X and the A350XWB will most likely have better performance ex-hot and high airports than the current 777 and A330 families.

There can be some minor adjustments made but other wise better hot/high perf equels more thrust needed. More thrust equals higher fuel burn and heavier engine.

/Lars
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SA744
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
With ETOPS-330, SA could fly anywhere from JNB with a twin (though missions to Australia would be longer due to having to fly an ETOPS-240{?} route). However, they all likely will encounter some type of field performance limits out of JNB that would impact payload due to single-engine out.

Well it does not look like they will be flying to OZ soon , as the code share with QF is not going to be renewed. Apparently the A343 fuel light starts beeping as it reaches PER... is this true?
 
speedbird128
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting SA744 (Reply 24):
fuel light starts beeping

Lights beep these days? Airbus more advanced than i previous thought.

JNB - ATL is tow restrcted to tyre rotation speed limit...
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting SA744 (Reply 24):
Apparently the A343 fuel light starts beeping as it reaches PER... is this true?

Very unlikely, unless they have not tanked enough fuel.


Dan  
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 04, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting BLIKSEM (Thread starter):
South African considering Boeing wide bodies to replace their A346's.
Quoting BLIKSEM (Reply 4):
I understand that they are also looking to replace their A343's. Perhaps they might consider B787's.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Maybe they're looking at the 747-8?
Quoting columba (Reply 11):
Well Boeing said that they are talking with several airlines about the 747-8I.
Quoting columba (Reply 11):
I could see SA as a potential 747-8I customer !!
Quoting garpd (Reply 12):
I feel my artistic finger twitching.. 77L, 787 and 748i in SA colours... mmm....
Quoting gingersnap (Reply 21):
I'm going with the B748i for SA.

I'm hoping they choose the B-747-844 (SA's Boeing customer code) too.   

BTW, airplanes fly in nautical miles, not statute miles. The GC distance ATL-JNB is 7334 nm, JFK-JNB is 6925 nm, both well within the range of the B-77L, B-788/9, and B-747-8I (who advertised ranges are in nm).
 
BLIKSEM
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Sun May 06, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 27):

I'm hoping they choose the B-747-844 (SA's Boeing customer code) too.  

I saw a recent article in a South African aviation magazine quoting the South African chief Captain to have said that the airline is considering twin jets to replace their long haul fleet. I would be surprised, yet exited, to see a B748 order. &
I would love to see a mix of B777 300ER/ B777 LR / B787-8 or 9's.

[Edited 2012-05-06 07:33:43]

[Edited 2012-05-06 07:34:29]

[Edited 2012-05-06 07:35:24]

[Edited 2012-05-06 07:37:02]
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Sun May 06, 2012 2:35 pm

How much revenue does SA make on belly cargo on their WBs?
 
BLIKSEM
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Sun May 06, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):

I have no idea of SA revenue on belly cargo on their WB's but, I would guess it to be substantial, especially on their US and China routes, which are both direct. The US and China are major trading partners of South Africa. There is only one other airline on direct routing US - SA (Delta) & there are no other airlines on the direct China - SA route. The airfreight demand must be substantial.
 
cv990Coronado
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Sun May 06, 2012 4:50 pm

I don't see any comments regarding pilot training and fleet commonality. As far as I know SAA will have an all Airbus fleet apart from a couple of freighters when the leases on the 738's are up. I think these are all being replaced by new A320's. Surely the A350 would be a better option from a fleet commonality point of view at the very least than any Boeing aircraft. With the new A332's quite a lot of the A343 routes can be operated by these which would free up some 346's by mixing 332's and 343's.

It doesn't make sense to me to switch to Boeing now . I still fondly remember flying on SAA's big Boeing's having flown on all of the 742's 743's and 744's an on one combi. At least Lebombo is still safe in Johannesburg.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Sun May 06, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 31):
Surely the A350 would be a better option from a fleet commonality point of view at the very least than any Boeing aircraft.

I think the only real reason SA would consider the 747-8 is because no twin could effectively/economically perform the mission (due to field performance or ETOPS consideration if SA can't use ETOPS-330). Otherwise, I agree that staying all-Airbus makes more sense and the A350 would be the logical replacement for their A340 fleet.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Sun May 06, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
How much revenue does SA make on belly cargo on their WBs?
Quoting BLIKSEM (Reply 30):
I have no idea of SA revenue on belly cargo on their WB's but, I would guess it to be substantial, especially on their US and China routes, which are both direct. The US and China are major trading partners of South Africa. There is only one other airline on direct routing US - SA (Delta) & there are no other airlines on the direct China - SA route. The airfreight demand must be substantial.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 31):Surely the A350 would be a better option from a fleet commonality point of view at the very least than any Boeing aircraft.
I think the only real reason SA would consider the 747-8 is because no twin could effectively/economically perform the mission (due to field performance or ETOPS consideration if SA can't use ETOPS-330). Otherwise, I agree that staying all-Airbus makes more sense and the A350 would be the logical replacement for their A340 fleet.

This is why I asked the question on belly cargo. For a combined pax and cargo load, the B-747-8I seems to be the best fit. For a twin, then the B-77W would be the best fit, with the B-77L taking on their longest routes to the US.

The A-350, with all its production slots taken for the first 5-6 years may be an option that comes to late for SA?
 
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boeingrulz
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Thu May 17, 2012 10:55 pm

Many of us 'old timers' from southern Africa have a specail place in our hearts for Boeing planes flying for SAA. I flew SAA 727's between Angola and South Africa. When leaving Angola for the US at the begining the civil war in 1974 our family flew JNB-SAL-JFK in a 707. Even though it is not rational, I die a little inside seeing the airbus fleet in SAA colours.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 18, 2012 12:25 am

Quoting BLIKSEM (Reply 28):
I would love to see a mix of B777 300ER/ B777 LR / B787-8 or 9's.

I suppose SA could lease a few 77Ls and 77Ws as an interim solution while they wait for 789s and 777-800/900Xs.

So, question, has SA issue a RFP to Boeing and Airbus? Is it imminent?
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SA744
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 18, 2012 8:21 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 35):
I suppose SA could lease a few 77Ls and 77Ws as an interim solution while they wait for 789s and 777-800/900Xs.

So, question, has SA issue a RFP to Boeing and Airbus? Is it imminent?

Not sure really.
I dont know if it is Imminent.Maybe the new CEO will surprise us.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 18, 2012 8:32 am

Why the rush to replace their A346s anyway, it's not as if they're that inefficient, and I can't imagine the resale value for them would be that great either? Indeed, in the short term a top up of 1 or 2 secondhand units might make more sense for controlled expansion.
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EddieDude
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 18, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting SA744 (Reply 36):
Not sure really.
I dont know if it is Imminent.Maybe the new CEO will surprise us.

Thanks. I understood from a separate thread that such an RFP had been issued or was coming soon.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Wide Bodies For South African?

Fri May 18, 2012 2:35 pm

SA currently has about 24 WBs in its fleet, all Airbuses, plus another 5 A-342s is storage. The entire SA WB and NB fleet has an average age of about 10 years. They took delivery of all 6 new build A-330s in 2011, IIRC. Their oldest WBs are the A-346s, of which the oldest one is 10 years old. Seems to me SA wants to replace the A-342s and A-346s first, then the A-343s a little later. They just got two used A-343s from IB in 2011, so that tells me that model might saty around a little more. The rest of the A-343s are some of the youngest A-343s anywhere in the world, the first one was delivered as a new build in 2004.

The A-342s could be replaced by the B-77L, the A-346s replaced by the B-77W, both on 6-8 year leases. Later on, SA can replace the A-343s with the B-747-8I. Since the A-330s are new, they can be replaced about the end of this dacade by B-789s. Once the leases expire on the B-77L/Ws, they can be replaced by the B-777-8X/-9X.

They can throw in a late decade order for the B-737-7MAX/-8MAX/-9MAX to replace the A-32X series they have now.

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