mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 6:27 pm

First Rise :-

Good management at BA combined with bad management of Pan Am, TWA and European legacies like LH and AF.

Fall :-

Primarily not many airlines have had their core markets attacked like BA has over the past 10 years. Combined with economic hell, oil prices and terrorism. LHR capacity issues.

Second Rise :-

Effective and sometimes brutal (but necessary) cost cutting i.e domestic/ short-haul schedules, staffing costs etc. Achievement of goals against sometimes equally brutal opposition i.e AA (anti-trust), IB (merger) and more recently BD (LHR slots). Terminal 5.

Brief I know but accurate ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
jetblast
Posts: 950
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:19 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
Second Rise :-

Effective and sometimes brutal (but necessary) cost cutting i.e domestic/ short-haul schedules, staffing costs etc. Achievement of goals against sometimes equally brutal opposition i.e AA (anti-trust), IB (merger) and more recently BD (LHR slots). Terminal 5.

The new To Fly, To Serve branding campaign seems to have injected some pride back into the airline as well. That being said I am hoping the staffing cuts don't reach my level!
Speedbird Concorde One
 
ei912
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 5:36 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 6:48 pm

I agree with your synopsis, however the 'second rise' is, in certain aspects, on a quite rocky path at the moment i.e. AA in bankruptcy, IB with serious labour issues/IB Exp. at the moment, integrating BD profitably with BA (which Lufthansa didn't manage to accomplish) etc. However T5 is definitely a bonus, albeit with the current immigration delays!

That being said, BA has managed to get itself into a very respectable condition before the global spotlight truly hits come Olympics time!

[Edited 2012-05-02 11:50:57]
 
PezySPU
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:27 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting EI912 (Reply 2):
integrating BD profitably with BA (which Lufthansa didn't manage to accomplish)

Actually, those two are completely different sorts of integration, don't you think? If BA act quickly, they don't need to fear inheriting BD's losses.

[Edited 2012-05-02 12:36:02]
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting EI912 (Reply 2):
however the 'second rise' is, in certain aspects, on a quite rocky path at the moment i.e. AA in bankruptcy, IB with serious labour issues/IB Exp. at the moment, integrating BD profitably with BA

Well I think that's just the airline industry for you. You never know whether you're on your arse or your elbow !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
ei912
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 5:36 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 3):
those two are completely different sorts of integration, don't you think?

Yep I agree with you, they're not the same, but it still won't be an easy task for BA to sort it all out. As you say, BA need to be quick as possible with the process.

[Edited 2012-05-02 13:16:35]
 
Talaier
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 7:38 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 8:45 pm

BA is in no way on a second rise. IAG is keeping its head out of the water at best. BA's traffic is hugely dependent on the US-Europe market which has been rebounding as of late but will eventually return to pre-2007 levels and thus hit its peak. This is bound to happen sooner rather than later. The market BA makes most of its revenues in is the most saturated long haul corridor in the world. BA will then struggle to grow unless it makes a bold move into Asia, tapping new passenger flows.

On the other hand the second leg of IAG has much better long term prospects on the basis of its current market focus. IB is currently in a mess but once that is over (which is bound to happen in the next few weeks) it has two corridors where it can grow much faster than BA: Europe-LatAm and Europe-Africa, with LatAm/US-Africa being the two corridors with the biggest potential. In LatAm it already has a dominant position and in Africa IB has a geographical advantage over other European airlines: thankfully for IB most of Africa is within reach of an A319 from MAD, giving it a good shot at a sizeable bunch of routes in the upper half of Africa that would be undoable with anything bigger.

BA on the other hand needs to move deep into Asia, where unfortunately it doesn't have much of a strong presence outside India. The problem is that Asia is bound to be a bloodbath for airlines over the next few years as everyone ramps up capacity and the Gulf airlines continue to dump prices on Y. On the other hand BA can't move into LatAm boldly because it's IB's turf and it already has a noticeable presence in Africa.

The 787 might change a few things (new routes in LatAm and Africa), but in terms of growth, BA has a problem in the medium term.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 695
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
Brief I know but accurate ?

Broadly accurate yes.

All of the big internal structural issues have been addressed (reforming working practices, pension deficit recovery plan and so forth). A few years ago it did seem that BA was on a path of gradually declining relevance. But having acquired 8 slot pairs last year and up to 56 slot pairs at LHR this year and fixed the cost base, BA is now growing.

Culturally, the organisation seems to have undergone a significant change (and one workgroup had to learn this the hard way). The days of sidestepping difficult issues are over and there is a lot of investment in service innovation at the moment (witness the use of iPads by crew and other projects being trailled the moment).

Competition from the Gulf carriers and LCCs is intense but I have more optimism about the future of IAG and BA than a lot of other airlines in Europe at the moment. And however much the Gulf carriers grow, London remains a preeminent global destination and one of the most important travel markets in the world.

Times in the industry will remain tough but at least there's a willingness to go out there and face the competition and compete that BA has lacked in some markets in the past.
 
sevenheavy
Posts: 927
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:30 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):

I would agree with most of it, but the "fall" part makes out that BA was blameless, and that all it's woes were a result of external influences. It's true enough, but there was also a period where there arrogance, complacency and poor service were "business as usual" at BA. They relied far too heavily on their image as a true global airline, with an untouchable network and position within the industry.

LH and AF were certainly poorly managed, but they did not compete in the same way they do now. PA and TWA were certainly in poor shape in terms of mismanagement, but right up until they sold their LHR route authority in 1991 TWA was certainly a match for BA in Terms of service. That said, they only competed on the major north American routes like BOS/JFK/IAD/MIA/ORD/SFO/LAX.

At one point, BA was a dinosaur, run by an "old boys club" who thought they were immune to the strains placed on the rest of the industry. Fortunately they saw sense, bought in some new blood and eventually regained their place as one of the industry leaders
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
lukeyboy95
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:07 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Wed May 02, 2012 10:53 pm

I'm surprised you didn't suggest the second 'fall' being the unveiling of their Olympic balls-up of a 'dove' jet.

Still, it is an interesting period for BA, and IAG as a whole. It is definitely going through a 'rise' at the moment in that it looks much more robust now than it did during the uncertainty of 2 years ago.

I think management (WW?) seems to be instilling a great sense of identity within the company, that waned horrendously during the strikes. It is great to see - The 'TFTS' advertising campaign helped greatly with this healing process. But...

Quoting EI912 (Reply 2):
the 'second rise' is, in certain aspects, on a quite rocky path at the moment i.e. AA in bankruptcy, IB with serious labour issues/IB Exp. at the moment, integrating BD profitably with BA (which Lufthansa didn't manage to accomplish) etc.

I concur, in that I still don't see this as a straightforward rise. They need to iron out alot of major issues before more strength can return to the business. Alot of uncertainty still exists, and whilst this is the case, the airline will not be able to prosper.

But I will say that I had pessimistic views of how it would fare against the rapidly evolving aviation market 2 years ago, but am pleased to say I think it is mostly riding the storm. May it continue.
Breaking down the stereotypes - one by one
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 6:27 am

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 8):
I would agree with most of it, but the "fall" part makes out that BA was blameless

I agree...look at the 'tails' fiasco...to replace Landor with 'that' !! Was a nice idea but it stopped there.

I was just trying to keep it as brief as possible though.

(maybe slightly selectively)

 Silly

[Edited 2012-05-02 23:29:04]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
User avatar
FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 8:50 am

I think alongside the first rise could be counted frustrated opportunities: -

* Unable to pull off mergers/acquisitions with at various times SN, KL, CO, UA;
* Then the US partnership founded when the long struggle to get a deal with AA was first unveiled.


The fall should include: -

* The failure of the European adventure - Deutsche BA and TAT European (Later Air Liberte after the AOM takeover and merger) failed to become second force carriers against LH and AF respectively.
* The inability to develop a dual-hub operation due to the overlap of LHR/LGW duplicating feeder traffic and O&D being hit when certain longhaul routes moved to LGW.
* Retreat from using franchise carriers and also the regions.
* The failure of BA management to pull off the KL merger (Due to it being seen by KL as a takeover rather than a merger); then the failure to pull off the deal with LX. The latter to me is the bigger of the two failures, as ZRH would have been a great hub for IAG to havee alongside LHR and MAD, with excellent access to Central Europe.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
The failure of the European adventure - Deutsche BA and TAT European (Later Air Liberte after the AOM takeover and merger) failed to become second force carriers against LH and AF respectively.

With hindsight though European short-haul isn't a great place to be these days....

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
Retreat from using franchise carriers and also the regions.

Inevitable ?

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
The failure of BA management to pull off the KL merger (Due to it being seen by KL as a takeover rather than a merger); then the failure to pull off the deal with LX. The latter to me is the bigger of the two failures, as ZRH would have been a great hub for IAG to havee alongside LHR and MAD, with excellent access to Central Europe.

Maybe...but my take on it is that it never would have been approved anyway...some in the EU and our American friends were positively outraged by the idea. BA was seen as already too powerful and the timing of it was too early.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 9:04 am

Quoting jetblast (Reply 1):
The new To Fly, To Serve branding campaign seems to have injected some pride back into the airline as well.

British Airways is one of the two Concorde airlines along with Air France.
A symbol of excellence world wide.

They are prestigious historical airlines providing excellent service, top level cabin and cockpit crews and ground staff with top of the line aircrafts and safety.

British Airways and Air France will live on for many more years.

        
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 9:16 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
The fall should include: -

* The failure of the European adventure - Deutsche BA and TAT European (Later Air Liberte after the AOM takeover and merger) failed to become second force carriers against LH and AF respectively.
* The inability to develop a dual-hub operation due to the overlap of LHR/LGW duplicating feeder traffic and O&D being hit when certain longhaul routes moved to LGW.
* Retreat from using franchise carriers and also the regions.
* The failure of BA management to pull off the KL merger (Due to it being seen by KL as a takeover rather than a merger); then the failure to pull off the deal with LX. The latter to me is the bigger of the two failures, as ZRH would have been a great hub for IAG to havee alongside LHR and MAD, with excellent access to Central Europe.

You've missed out GO, launching a low cost competitor, which then resulted in BA operating from LHR, LGW and STN. Whilst they did manage to sell GO to U2 for a profit, it was an unwelcome distraction on management time.

Plus the massive orders for 744's and 772's which had to be scaled back when the downturn came along, leaving BA short of cash for quite some years.

Just about all of Rod Eddington's time at the helm was spent getting over the financial mishaps of his predecessor Bob Ayling. Much to his credit he left the airline in a fit state to move forward.
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 9:19 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 13):

Well with the EU in mind common sense 'should' have dictated that IAG, Air France-KLM and Lufthansa Group be 'at least' in the same alliance.

Centralized hubs and a 'viable' network of efficient and cooperating short-haul.

But no, what do we get ?

A right old shambles.

UA, DL, EK etc

We gotta bat big !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 393
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 6):
BA's traffic is hugely dependent on the US-Europe market

Agreed. Look at the prices of a BA ticket across the Atlantic compared to other markets. For example, a seat in J to ORD is routinely over £5,000 for an 8 hour journey. Yet you can get a ticket to SYD on the same dates for a couple of hundred pounds less, and sometimes this route falls as low as £3,000 - this for a 22 hour journey! This is an extreme case but the same effect can be seen on routes to Asia.

The reason I think this is, is because BA do not suffer competition from Emirates et al across the Atlantic, as they do on routes to Asia. Going to ORD from London via Dubai makes no sense whatsoever. Similarly back-tracking to Europe does not make much sense for the British business person either, unless the fare is particularly sharp.

Therefore, BA's success, as I see it, has been based somewhat good management, yes, but also hugely on luck.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
TYCOON
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 2:03 pm

True, vhtje, but then try flying Paris-ORD or FRA-ORD on BA in J, you will find prices around £2,000. Flying BA transatlantic in J or F via LHR is alot cheaper than from LHR transatlantic (the same exists on other European carriers if you route via their hub).
A bit off the point, but interesting nonetheless.
 
Liverpoola380
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:19 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 11):
Retreat from using franchise carriers and also the regions

I think this one of BA's biggest mistakes with its shorthaul and domestic network.

Selling GB to U2 opened the doors wide open to the UK shorthaul market and as a direct result I believe Easyjet are now the dominant carrier out of LGW

Its a shame to see the demise of BA in the regions with T3 at MAN once dedicated to BA and LGW North Terminal but qudos to Easyjet for spotting the opportuninty and running with it.
 
sevenheavy
Posts: 927
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:30 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 2:10 pm

Quoting vhtje (Reply 16):
Agreed. Look at the prices of a BA ticket across the Atlantic compared to other markets. For example, a seat in J to ORD is routinely over £5,000 for an 8 hour journey. Yet you can get a ticket to SYD on the same dates for a couple of hundred pounds less, and sometimes this route falls as low as £3,000 - this for a 22 hour journey! This is an extreme case but the same effect can be seen on routes to Asia.

The reason I think this is, is because BA do not suffer competition from Emirates et al across the Atlantic, as they do on routes to Asia. Going to ORD from London via Dubai makes no sense whatsoever. Similarly back-tracking to Europe does not make much sense for the British business person either, unless the fare is particularly sharp.

Therefore, BA's success, as I see it, has been based somewhat good management, yes, but also hugely on luck.

BA have competition on almost every route they serve. ORD for example has AA (kind of!) UA and VS, and most key routes are similar. It is true that EK, and also EY and QR have taken a chunk of the Far Eastern and Australian market but there will always be people who would prefer to fly BA.

The middle Eastern carriers have been particularly agressive in gaining a foothold in these markets. BA has responded, notably with its tie up with QF which resulted in a large scale consolidation.

Ultimately though, it is very difficult, maybe impossible, to analyse one route over another based on published prices. Revenue management is such an art these days, with so many variables that understanding pricing and cost bases etc. is nothing more than guesswork. For example, BA may deliberately be selling J tickets to ORD in DEL or BOM for £1k as a connection. The LHR-ORD flight is hugely expensive, and capacity controlled, but most of the flight is sold off elsewhere in the network for far less.

Even VS, who everyone on A.net assumes has no feed, regularly sells 75% of one of its NYC services as connections from DEL. The prices from LHR to NYC are sky high because they really want to keep market share on the connections.

Sorry, a bit rambling but hopefully it makes sense!
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3378
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 6):
BA's traffic is hugely dependent on the US-Europe market which has been rebounding as of late but will eventually return to pre-2007 levels and thus hit its peak. This is bound to happen sooner rather than later. The market BA makes most of its revenues in is the most saturated long haul corridor in the world.

Good heavens, glass half empty or what? Always funny when people fixate on growth, growth, growth versus profitability. IAG will grow, BA should be able to remain profitable.

Quoting liverpoola380 (Reply 18):
Selling GB to U2 opened the doors wide open to the UK shorthaul market and as a direct result I believe Easyjet are now the dominant carrier out of LGW

Are you suggesting BA should have remained losing money in a market in which it was clear it had not and could not make money.
 
Liverpoola380
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:19 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 20):
Are you suggesting BA should have remained losing money in a market in which it was clear it had not and could not make money.

All BA had to do was adjust its business model slightly. U2 seem to be flourishing and can often be much more expensive than BA on certain routes out of MAN and LGW
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 393
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 2:21 pm

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 19):
BA have competition on almost every route they serve.

Absolutely! No argument from me on that. But my point was that competition does not come from the Middle Eastern carriers on the routes across the Atlantic.

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 19):
Revenue management is such an art these days

Exactly, and that's why I said "somewhat good management" - I think BA's revenue management team are clearly very expert at what they do.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 1934
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 14):
You've missed out GO, launching a low cost competitor, which then resulted in BA operating from LHR, LGW and STN. Whilst they did manage to sell GO to U2 for a profit, it was an unwelcome distraction on management time.

BA did not sell Go to U2, they sold it to 3i, who later flipped the company to easyJet. I still believe the reason for setting up Go was a good one, basically to exert some level of control on the growth of easyJet and Ryanair in the UK market, which would later spread across europe. I firmly believe that BA should have held onto Go, of course there were powerful vested interests that worried that Go would become the backbone of BA shorthaul, once Bob Ayling was ousted at the helm of BA, that was the end of Go.
With Go, IAG would likely have a low-cost airline trading across Europe and easyJet would be a lot smaller. Indeed I suspect that much of the operation we see today as orange would be tended by a multi-coloured fleet of A319s and A321s, I think the overall IAG short-haul operation at Gatwick would look very different and mostly Go-operated.
Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting vhtje (Reply 16):
Therefore, BA's success, as I see it, has been based somewhat good management, yes, but also hugely on luck.

Well with respect...you make your own luck.

Just as with EK...... BA had the foresight to make the most of a particularly well placed hub geographically.

Is is hardly luck if BA's competition on the Atlantic has 'up until now at least' been relatively weak in terms of quality compared to themselves.

(excluding VS of course but they have never really had the benefits of size for both themselves and their customers)

UA and DL to the west, EKand SQ to the east and FR et al in the middle.......luck ??

[Edited 2012-05-03 07:37:24]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 393
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 24):
UA and DL to the west, EKand SQ to the east and FR et al in the middle.......luck ??

Well, yes - the geographical location of the UK is very lucky for BA. The good management part is that they have taken advantage of it so well.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 19):
ORD for example has AA (kind of!)

Not kind of at all. AA and BA have the JBA on US routes so share profit. They are not a competitor at all.
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
sevenheavy
Posts: 927
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:30 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 26):

I know....it was meant to be tongue in cheek. Fair point though.

That said, there are still elements of competition, even in the strongest JV. Both carriers will be keen to maintain market share as both will have customers who prefer that carriers aircraft. They will also want to make sure they maintain a presence in relation to the wider benefit to the network and to product recognition.

BA/AA are definately in bed together, doesn't make them married
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting vhtje (Reply 16):
BA do not suffer competition from Emirates et al across the Atlantic, as they do on routes to Asia.

I don't think BA really suffer on routes to Asia because of EK et al.

Not with LHR originating traffic anyway. Even regional regular long-haulers will choose BA ex LHR because they are also likey to be travelling often to the States and so will want to benefit from loyalty schemes. None of the gulf carriers are in alliances.

It's important to remember that due to the nature of the UK aviation industry being what it is no one carrier could ever take up 'all' the slack, they would have to be HUGE.

With LHR restricted and foreign countries quite rightly and obviously demanding their own rights BA especially now with the BD slots is at its optimum position. All they have to do now is what they are already doing i.e renew the fleet and keep updating on board products.

Airlines cannot just grow and grow ad infinitum.

Even EK will one day reach its ceiling.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Mike909
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:16 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 13):
hey are prestigious historical airlines providing excellent service, top level cabin and cockpit crews and ground staff with top of the line aircrafts and safety.

I couldn't disagree more.
The on board product of BA is mightily inferior to that of most other modern airlines nowadays, especially considering that it is the national flag carrier.
In addition, I have flown BA many times where the service has been unsatisfactory and some FA's have been rude.
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 8:39 pm

Quoting Mike909 (Reply 29):
The on board product of BA is mightily inferior to that of most other modern airlines nowadays, especially considering that it is the national flag carrier.

We are fortunate to still have a national flag carrier.

Let alone one that is actually making money. Why do you think that is Mike909 ?

Cost cutting.

Which in itself has implications which neither staff or customers much like.

It is alas a necessary evil until the situation improves.

We in Europe should be getting used to it by now.

AF, LH, BA, KL, IB.....all currently are doing all they can to improve profitability.


Quoting Mike909 (Reply 29):
In addition, I have flown BA many times where the service has been unsatisfactory and some FA's have been rude.

And that of course is so unique to BA. Never happens on the American carriers, or VS, or EK ?

Let's have some 'considered' opinions shall we ?

Nota bene - in my experience as cabin crew of many years.... colleagues were mostly rude in response to rudeness.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Mike909
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:16 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Mikey 72, can't be coincedence that all my stories and friends' stories of rude FA's on BA (and one time on UA)

I have never experienced this on any time I have flown on airlines such as U2, VS, NZ, TG, QF & JQ

Appears then as European airlines are a step behind the rest. (That does not mean all of them!)
 
Talaier
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 7:38 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 20):
Good heavens, glass half empty or what? Always funny when people fixate on growth, growth, growth versus profitability. IAG will grow, BA should be able to remain profitable.

Well profitability is good but if there is no growth then investors will move elsewhere where they get both. There are plenty of high dividend stocks that also provide growth, so why stick to IAG? This is how the rationale on the stock market goes (in very basic terms) and given IAG is a listed company, it has to play by the rules.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 28):
I don't think BA really suffer on routes to Asia because of EK et al.

Not with LHR originating traffic anyway. Even regional regular long-haulers will choose BA ex LHR because they are also likey to be travelling often to the States and so will want to benefit from loyalty schemes. None of the gulf carriers are in alliances.

It's important to remember that due to the nature of the UK aviation industry being what it is no one carrier could ever take up 'all' the slack, they would have to be HUGE.

With LHR restricted and foreign countries quite rightly and obviously demanding their own rights BA especially now with the BD slots is at its optimum position. All they have to do now is what they are already doing i.e renew the fleet and keep updating on board products.

Airlines cannot just grow and grow ad infinitum.

Even EK will one day reach its ceiling.

Growth doesn't mean opening more routes, it can also mean gaining market share at someone else's expense. And I do believe BA suffers in routes to OZ and Asia because of EK, just look at how many daily flights out of Manchester EK has with most of those passengers originating in the UK.

BA has a cashcow which is US-Europe business traffic. It is this market share that pays for everything else, which is why it needs to move more boldly into Asia - in order to balance out its revenue stream and boost profitability.
 
TYCOON
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Thu May 03, 2012 10:29 pm

Having flown over 150 airlines worldwide, rather than being a cabin crew of one British flag carrier, I can honestly say that I wouldn't rank BA on-board service, food and comfort in the top 15 international carriers (in the front or in the back).
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 32):
BA has a cashcow which is US-Europe business traffic. It is this market share that pays for everything else, which is why it needs to move more boldly into Asia - in order to balance out its revenue stream and boost profitability.

What BA has to do is use the limited resources (slots) at its disposal in a way that creates the most remuneration.

Now with the recent slot boost they will move boldy into Asia.

I wish it was all as cut and dried as you make out.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 33):
Having flown over 150 airlines worldwide, rather than being a cabin crew of one British flag carrier, I can honestly say that I wouldn't rank BA on-board service, food and comfort in the top 15 international carriers (in the front or in the back).

Oh you're right these days.

Speaking as a frequently travelling Brit though I feel very fortunate to have an airline like BA based on my doorstep. Service is perfectly acceptable sometimes exceptional as are the cabins.

The Oneworld alliance, network, joint ventures etc have really made a difference as shows in the bottom line but as I'm sure you are aware (by the sounds of it) it's been a rocky road to get there !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
GSTBA
Posts: 386
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:20 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting Mike909 (Reply 31):
Mikey 72, can't be coincedence that all my stories and friends' stories of rude FA's on BA (and one time on UA)

I have experienced rude FA's on AC, AF, AZ, BA, BD, CO, CX, DL, EK, EY, FR, KL, LH, MH, QF, QR & SQ .

I have also experienced polite, welcoming FA's on AC, AF, AZ, BA, BD, CO, CX, DL, EK, EY, FR, KL, LH, MH, QF, QR & SQ

Now more than ever we are all is quick to tell stories of when they receive bad service, experience delays or meet rude FA's, but we are not so quick to tell stories of FA's who go out of there way to help or airlines who offer great service.
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 32):
just look at how many daily flights out of Manchester EK has with most of those passengers originating in the UK.

Umm....3.

Not many for a multi-cultural city with a population of 2.2M on an airline that opens up the entire eastern hemisphere with little if any competition.

BA flies 12 times a day and counting from MAN to London. Approx 2000 seats.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
David_itl
Posts: 5961
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 36):
Umm....3.

Not many for a multi-cultural city with a population of 2.2M on an airline that opens up the entire eastern hemisphere with little if any competition

BA flies 12 times a day and counting from MAN to London. Approx 2000 seats.

Comparing with EK alone - 4 times as many flights. 2 times as many seats.

Looking at the CAA provisional stats for March comparing the London market to the EK/QR/EY operation .

London fell 2% to 88568 passengers (LHR was up 1% to 71293 passengers).

Dubai up 20% to 61528 passengers. (3 daily EK)
Abu Dhabi up 40% to 23031 passengers (2 daily EY)
Doha up 81% to 23362 passengers (2 daily QR)
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting david_itl (Reply 37):
Comparing with EK alone - 4 times as many flights. 2 times as many seats.

Looking at the CAA provisional stats for March comparing the London market to the EK/QR/EY operation .

London fell 2% to 88568 passengers (LHR was up 1% to 71293 passengers).

Dubai up 20% to 61528 passengers. (3 daily EK)
Abu Dhabi up 40% to 23031 passengers (2 daily EY)
Doha up 81% to 23362 passengers (2 daily QR)

David of all the destinations that these carriers connect people with from MAN why are there NO non-stop services offered by the home carriers of these destinations ?

Could it be because they wouldn't fill an 'upholstered rollerskate' on a point to point basis ?

How many more times do we have to have this conversation ?

It's great that EK, EY and QR can make the regions work on an intercontinental basis 'via their hubs' !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
GCPET
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:43 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 5:38 pm

A definite fall has to be moving all operations to London, at the end of 2008. Virgin would be an airline that has benefited from BA moving all operations to London. I believe that there is much money to be made at airports like Manchester and if they're the flag carrier then you should be providing flights from a bit more then just London... Look at Lufthansa, they have flights from all the main German cities, LH and SH. Hopefully BA will move back to at least Manchester with some LH operations maybe on the 767?

GCPET
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 36):
Not many for a multi-cultural city with a population of 2.2M on an airline that opens up the entire eastern hemisphere with little if any competition.

?

No competition to Emirates from Manchester - You do know One service is an A388 ?

Going East

Etihad - 2 daily
Qatar- upto 2 daily
Singapore - upto daily (Albeit shared with Munich)

Lufthansa via Frankfurt and Munich
Air France/KLM - Multiple daily via CDG and Amsterdam
Swiss - via Zurich

Finnair - Two daily via Helsinki and on to China/ Japan / Korea the quickest way possible.

Turkish- 2 daily via Istanbul

and your beloved BA -ALL Going EAST =Plenty of options/competition from Manchester

Plus PIA/Air Blue/Biman to Pakistan/Bangladesh serving the local ethnic communities.

Going west - Without the need to travel via LHR

Delta- Atlanta
US - Philadelphia
JFK- American (BA codeshare)
Chicago- American (BA codeshare0
Newark - United
Washington- United
Las Vagas- Virgin (Leisure Fleet)
Orlando- Virgin (Leisure Fleet)

Going South west (South America)
Iberia
TAP

North Africa
Tunis Air
and several LCCs to Morocco and Egypt
Libya - Expected to resume

Only really week areas are Sub Sahara Africa , India and a proper Canadian service from Manchester
Both of these were bmi connection bread and butter for South African and Air Canada. Passengers already travel with Emirates in reasonable numbers to East and South Africa for Manchester via Dubai and AC may well look at a regional service in light of the exposure to connecting traffic starting their journey with BA
 
mikey72
Topic Author
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 40):

Thank you.

And how many of these airlines have to support a base in MAN rutankrd ?

Is it......none....I wonder ?

Oh and I would just add that alot of airlines on that list are currently losing money......

[Edited 2012-05-05 10:48:55]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 41):
And how many of these airlines have to support a base in MAN rutankrd

Local employers

Etihad - European Sales, Marketing and development departments and yes a call centre,
Plus line maintenance and engine testing of A330 models.

Emirates - Call centre

This ones good

British Airways Cityflyer - HQ
Head office is West Didsbury (Manchester !)

I give you its a fact Manchester is a spoke , however a spoke on many differing wheels yes including those of BA.

As for profitability i can not say how Manchester services stand up on each airlines balance sheet - can you ?

What i can say is that a city of 2.2 million and a region of many more millions appears to be able to sustain a substantial network of services quite successfully.

If UK had a coherent transport policy Manchester sure is the best facility to arrive and depart the UK if you have no reason to be in London ( And many real economy company reps don't).
I'll add Manchester Airport also has excellent ground transport - Better than Heathrow anyway - Direct trains to ALL the Northern and Scottish lowland cities.
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 42):
What i can say is that a city of 2.2 million and a region of many more millions appears to be able to sustain a substantial network of services quite successfully.

But none of those airlines BASE their aircraft and crew base at MAN. That is where it becomes costly.....
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 43):
But none of those airlines BASE their aircraft and crew base at MAN. That is where it becomes costly.....

True and no one disputes that, but even BA would not need to BASE any aircraft at Manchester if they ever wanted to consider returning to an hypothetically isolated JFK rotation . Just swap at remote

However like thats going to happen - anyway want to fly British Airways MAN-JFK without LHR you can every day -it just happens you will be on a shiny silver plane. Same for Chicago.
 
lhr380
Posts: 2453
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 44):
True and no one disputes that, but even BA would not need to BASE any aircraft at Manchester if they ever wanted to consider returning to an hypothetically isolated JFK rotation . Just swap at remote

Which in turn would cost more as more crew would be staying "away" from base...
(The views on this site are my own and no one elses)
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 45):
Which in turn would cost more as more crew would be staying "away" from base...

again not disputed but thats a small cost and anyway they could reposition on shuttle.

All that said when did BA EVER have this mythical major Long Haul operation in the regions ?

How about never more than two or three frames at a time in four decades.

They inherited the BOAC New York/Toronto/Montreal routes that operated from Manchester/Prestwick and occasionally Birmingham and Glasgow.

The Canadian VFR market collapsed at the beginning of the Nineties. They suspended New York operations for four years in the eighties recession.

Briefly they operated to Hong Kong via either Bangkok or India until Cathay went daily.

They served Pakistan until security issues stopped them from anywhere in the UK

Oh they did serve Los Angeles and it true front cabin was empty

As BA World Holidays Orlando and Barbados were also served for a short time.

You see the trend the only REAL business hub served in the East was Hong Kong .

Fact is BA in the regions was a legacy European Business Carrier that in the end got lumbered with a load of capacity restricted and unsuitable RJs . They charged ridiculous fares and having lost the subsidised back of the bus seats of the 732 and 1-11s lost money as result.

Further regional service were very much doomed after deregulation anyway as they couldn't continue the IATA pooling arrangements that allowed them the share many of those business routes with their counterparts for day return journeys .
 
blue100
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:58 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 45):
Which in turn would cost more as more crew would be staying "away" from base...

Indeed, not to mention that the current JFK schedule is almost entirely 744's with perhaps 1 trip being done with the 777 (mostly the 77W I believe?). I remember the days when BA served JFK from MAN with the 767. I even flew on BA's JFK-LGW when they served it with the 767. However, given that the dynamics of the industry have changed significantly since then, I do not see the practicality of having BA operate the MAN-JFK route when AA can easily and efficiently serve the route on behalf of both AA and BA.
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting Blue100 (Reply 47):
I do not see the practicality of having BA operate the MAN-JFK route when AA can easily and efficiently serve the route on behalf of both AA and BA.

Again agreed.

the main problem is getting those dumb a**ses in Watership down and their cosy alliance with corporate clients to even realise its existence. AND THATS ALWAYS BEEN a factor.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3378
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Rise, Fall And Rise Of BA. An Analysis.

Sat May 05, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 32):

High dividend stocks, in the airline business? In Europe???

It's easy to slam BA, mainly because being based in London it's hard to serve such a market as a long haul legacy and then make anything work in the very different regions. The whole emotive Manchester thing on here is really odd, it's been a long time since anyone thought BA were serious about a base at MAN and yet even mentioning MAN-JFK is like lighting a fire.

By way of comparison, Virgin operate two seperate operations, a LHR to the world operation and a LGW / MAN / GLA holiday operation. However this is well disguised as all ops are branded as "Virgin Atlantic". BA used to have British Airtours who also used to fly B747s, L1011s and even B707s long haul out of MAN. To some extent, the BA B777 fleet at LGW crewed with a lower cost base and heavily sold by BA holidays is the succesor to that.
However what MAN never had was a hub and spoke operation feeding long haul to any extent.

The truth is that "BA" only ever made significant money out of LHR and it took years for them to make some painful decisions regarding non core businesses. Whether the BA of post 2012 could make point to point leisure long haul work in a B787 from MAN, as a way of growing and making money is an interesting idea, however until some senior management have moved on or retired, I think it unlikely.
The whole Emirates vs BA thing is a little childish, as it's not that they love you, it's purely commercial and Emirates has the firepower to to things that BA could never do and the employment laws to make it easy.

[Edited 2012-05-05 17:27:48]