planemaker
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New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 5:58 am

Those that follow trends in avionics or fly single engine aircraft will be interested to read about this engine out emergency system or, as the manufacturer phrases it...

Quote:
The backup EFIS that flies your plane down in an emergency.

- Engine failure?
- EFIS failure?
- VRF into IMC?
- Pilot incapacitation?

The Vertical Power SP (Brazil)">VP-400 is a back-up EFIS that flies your aircraft safely to the best runway in an emergency. The best airport is the one with the longest and widest runway that is pointed most directly into the wind that you can still safely glide to without impacting terrain or obstacles. THAT is the airport you want to glide to in an emergency! Your existing GPS nearest function understands none of these things.

.

.

Quote:
Simple To Use!

When there is an emergency, simply pull the throttle to idle and press the Runway Seeker button on your instrument panel. The system automatically engages the autopilot to fly the glide path to the runway, leaving you free to focus on emergency procedures and talk to controllers. It sets the correct airspeed and even controls your flaps to manage energy during the descent so you arrive at the runway threshold on-speed, on-heading, on-altitude, and ready to land. Descent paths are calculated to be clear of known terrain and obstacles. When over the threshold, manually disconnect the Runway Seeker and land the airplane.

.

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The price for the system is around $11k. Here is the web link for those that are interested in the details...

http://verticalpower.com/vp-400/

This ties in with previous threads that that SP commercial ops are an inevitability within the next 10-15 years. I have often said in past SP discussions that we have the technology to do this in response to concerns about pilot incapacitation and it is neat to already see a low-level system on the market at an affordable price point.
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Kaphias
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 6:07 am

This was actually developed in a partnership with Austin Meyer, the same guy who develops the flight simulator X-Plane. Pretty cool!
Edit: Here's more info from Austin himself- http://www.x-plane.com/hardware/evo/9_seeker/Seeker.html

[Edited 2012-05-03 23:11:53]
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AussieItaliano
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 5:25 pm

Yep, I did a patent search a few years back for this (hoping to patent the idea myself) but it had already been taken in 2002. Too late for me, but good luck to Austin Meyer!
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planemaker
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting kaphias (Reply 1):
Edit: Here's more info from Austin himself- http://www.x-plane.com/hardware/evo/....html

Thank you very much for the link. It is always great to read first hand accounts of how the system was developed. There was a lot more detail than the product web site. For example, it was neat to see how he hooked up a FLIR camera to get...

.

.

I liked Austin's line at that end of the page:

Quote:
And hey: If you ever see my Evolution come in for a landing at your local airport and there is nobody on board... don't worry: I just called for my airplane to come pick me up.

Just imagine, if Sully had had this kind of system on board he would have been able to land back at the airport.

I wonder how far out it is before we see this on an iPad.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Maverick623
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting planemaker (Thread starter):

This ties in with previous threads that that SP commercial ops are an inevitability within the next 10-15 years.
Quoting planemaker (Reply 3):

Just imagine, if Sully had had this kind of system on board he would have been able to land back at the airport.

  

You do know that the second pilot is there for more than just "backup", right?

Also, you do know that 1549 had lost thrust, right? Kinda hard to manage energy when your main source is gone.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
planemaker
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
You do know that the second pilot is there for more than just "backup", right?

The second pilot (nor the "first") can do what this system does... calculate in real-time the best runway to glide to (30 times EVERY second!)

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):

Also, you do know that 1549 had lost thrust, right? Kinda hard to manage energy when your main source is gone.

You obviously didn't read anything anything about the system... let alone the first line of this thread (what do you think "engine out" means?!?!)
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
tribird1011
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 5):
You obviously didn't read anything anything about the system... let alone the first line of this thread (what do you think "engine out" means?!?!)

Understood, but how will the system manage the engine(s) out emergency, if the nearest runway is beyond gliding range?

And in that case, does it have the "brains" to select the most suitable place for an off airport landing? There are instances where the flattest field is not the most suitable...
 
planemaker
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 6):
Understood, but how will the system manage the engine(s) out emergency, if the nearest runway is beyond gliding range?

The system hasn't been programmed for that situation... yet.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Maverick623
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 5):

The second pilot (nor the "first") can do what this system does... calculate in real-time the best runway to glide to (30 times EVERY second!)

WOW! Because the best runway totally changes 30 times EVERY second!!!!

Also, the claim that "Sully could have landed back at the airport" is just flippin stupid. I expect better from an aircraft builder.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 5):
You obviously didn't read anything anything about the system... let alone the first line of this thread (what do you think "engine out" means?!?!)

I don't need to read anything about the system: your claims are so far out of reality it's not even funny.

Is this another cool toy for pilots to play with? Sure. Will it revolutionize the industry and make pilots redundant? Not so much.



Methinks you work for this company. Just my   
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
tdscanuck
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
Also, you do know that 1549 had lost thrust, right? Kinda hard to manage energy when your main source is gone.

That's what "manage energy" means...you've lost your source of kinetic energy (the engines) so you need to manage what you have (gravitational potential energy) to keep your kinetic energy up high enough to keep flying and make it to a suitable landing site. If the engines are running you don't generally worry about energy management unless you're doing something that requires more energy than the engines can provide (zoom climbs, go-arounds from too low with engines at idle, etc.).

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 6):
Understood, but how will the system manage the engine(s) out emergency, if the nearest runway is beyond gliding range?

The whole point is it finds the nearest runway *within* gliding range. Figuring glide range accurately is tricky, doubly so when trying to deal with an emergency, and the time spent deciding is precious time/altitude/speed lost. This system makes the calculation of multiple variables faster and more accurately than most pilots can. You don't have to use it if you know where you want to go and how to get there but, if you don't, this is a lot better than nothing.

Tom.
 
planemaker
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
WOW! Because the best runway totally changes 30 times EVERY second!!!!

Unfortunately you don't understand what it does... nor how it does it since you, by self admission, didn't read anything about the product. Moreover, even without reading anything about the system, you failed to grasp the critical point about its capabilities.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Also, the claim that "Sully could have landed back at the airport" is just flippin stupid. I expect better from an aircraft builder.

It isn't a claim but a fact from the NTSB report. Expressing your uninformed and incorrect opinion is one thing but resorting to using "flippin stupid", etc in the face of facts is a very poor reflection on your cognitive skills.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
I don't need to read anything about the system: your claims are so far out of reality it's not even funny.

First, they are indeed facts and, second, since you chose not to read about the system or the NTSB report you have no basis to make any statement.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Will it revolutionize the industry and make pilots redundant? Not so much.

No one is claiming this... so your statement has no relevance.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Methinks you work for this company. Just my

Oh... a new one. I'll just add that to Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, etc, etc, that posters have said that I work for.  
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
tdscanuck
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Fri May 04, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Also, the claim that "Sully could have landed back at the airport" is just flippin stupid. I expect better from an aircraft builder.

Then the NTSB and FAA are "flippin stupid". Postflight analysis (and simualtor work) showed that he could have made the airport if he'd immediately turned back the second the birds hit. But it's not reasonable for a crew to make that assessment that fast; the crew made exactly the right decision given the processes they had to follow. However, if they'd had instant access to a tool that would have told them they could make the airport...

Tom.
 
tribird1011
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 11):
Then the NTSB and FAA are "flippin stupid". Postflight analysis (and simualtor work) showed that he could have made the airport if he'd immediately turned back the second the birds hit. But it's not reasonable for a crew to make that assessment that fast; the crew made exactly the right decision given the processes they had to follow. However, if they'd had instant access to a tool that would have told them they could make the airport.

My understanding of this was that he could have made the runway if he turned to the runway right after the bird strikes, without assessing the situation. After "wasting" the 30 or so seconds to assess the situation, he could no longer make the runway, and chose the river.

Now, let's say that he did in fact have this system... after he suffered the strikes, would he have turned to the runway immediately, or assess the situation first (ie' what the heck just happened). I personally think he would assess before acting.

So, although this may prove to be another useful tool for aviation, I don't believe that it would have helped 1549 reach a runway -- extremely limited options.
 
OB1504
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 12:45 am

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 6):
And in that case, does it have the "brains" to select the most suitable place for an off airport landing? There are instances where the flattest field is not the most suitable...

  

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Also, the claim that "Sully could have landed back at the airport" is just flippin stupid. I expect better from an aircraft builder.

   Even though the FAA and NTSB found that he could make it back, was it worth the risk of an Airbus A320 possibly landing short in New York City?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 9):
The whole point is it finds the nearest runway *within* gliding range. Figuring glide range accurately is tricky, doubly so when trying to deal with an emergency, and the time spent deciding is precious time/altitude/speed lost. This system makes the calculation of multiple variables faster and more accurately than most pilots can. You don't have to use it if you know where you want to go and how to get there but, if you don't, this is a lot better than nothing.

Doesn't good airmanship dictate that a pilot always have an idea of where he or she wants to go and how to get there?

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 12):
Now, let's say that he did in fact have this system... after he suffered the strikes, would he have turned to the runway immediately, or assess the situation first (ie' what the heck just happened). I personally think he would assess before acting.

   If he had turned back immediately and it turned out that they couldn't make it to the runway (resulting the hypothetical another-Airbus-down-in-New York City scenario), the public would've wanted his blood if he hadn't taken the time to assess the situation.
 
ghifty
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 2:14 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
WOW! Because the best runway totally changes 30 times EVERY second!!!!

I suppose it's also stupid that my Volvo's ABS brakes can apply different levels of pressure 15 times every second because my stopping point changes 15 times every second?

The whole point of 30x redundancy is to calculate, I assume, the best landing point for the aircraft at that very instant. It's not like the wind outside always blows at a constant speed..
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planemaker
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 12):
So, although this may prove to be another useful tool for aviation, I don't believe that it would have helped 1549 reach a runway -- extremely limited options.

If Flt. 1459 had had a similar system to the VP-400 on board it would have shown that they would have made it back to LGA at the time of the bird strike but... more importantly, the system would also have shown that they would have made Teterboro as well (the 30 second delay actually brought them closer to Teterboro, something that the NTSB report doesn't broach).

The NTSB investigation report recommendations included the following:

Quote:

- Require manufacturers of turbine-powered aircraft to develop a checklist and procedure for a dual-engine failure occurring at a low altitude. (A-10-66)

- Require 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121, Part 135, and Part 91 Subpart K operators to include a dual-engine failure scenario occurring at a low altitude in initial and recurrent ground and simulator training designed to improve pilots' critical-thinking, task-shedding, decision-making, and workload-management skills. (A-10-69).

With such a system on board, part of the climb out procedures would include monitoring the emergency landing options displayed on the monitor.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 13):
Even though the FAA and NTSB found that he could make it back, was it worth the risk of an Airbus A320 possibly landing short in New York City?

That is the whole point of a VP-400 system. A human can't do the mental calculations that the system does to work out on a real-time basis every runway landing option.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 3:51 am

Considering the number one cause of accidents are CFIT related, any tool that can lighten the load of the pilot by providing more information and laying out more options, is a good thing.

11grand...wow...modern electronics are making the glass cockpit affordable for almost any aircraft...and that's a good thing. Too bad they take so damned long and cost so much to get them certified.
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Mir
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 13):
Even though the FAA and NTSB found that he could make it back, was it worth the risk of an Airbus A320 possibly landing short in New York City?

Forget about possibly landing short, how about the system guiding you to a runway with other aircraft on it? Sure, ATC will try and get them off, but from a simple physics standpoint that can take time (hence, why the system smartly tries to avoid busy airports). And then you show up and you're looking at an impending collision with another aircraft, which will certainly be fatal.

There's no doubt that this will have good use in the GA field, but to try and make it seem like this would have made the outcome of US1549 better is rather disingenuous - it could have, but it also could have made it worse).

-Mir
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Max Q
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 5:40 am

Sully, without question made the right decision, any number of variables could have prevented him from making a runway and that would have been truly disastrous.


His decision to ditch was the most conservative, safest plan without any doubt and it provided the best chance for everyones survival.


Proof is in the pudding, he saved everyones life.



This electronic toy might be useful but it can't predict what the winds will be doing miles away, or which runway might be blocked etc..


Useful but no panacea and certainly not a Pilot replacement.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
planemaker
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
Sure, ATC will try and get them off, but from a simple physics standpoint that can take time

Flt. 1539 advised TRACON at 3:27 that they lost both engines and all flights waiting to depart were held back. 1539 hit the water 5 minutes later. Even if there was an aircraft that just taxied into position on RWY 13 it would be long gone by the time that 1539 was arriving over the threshold (takeoff roll for even a 747 is only ~45 seconds).

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
There's no doubt that this will have good use in the GA field, but to try and make it seem like this would have made the outcome of US1549 better is rather disingenuous - it could have, but it also could have made it worse).

It isn't disingenuous. If 1539 would have had this technology onboard it would have landed at Teterboro... which is far better than ditching.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
Sully, without question made the right decision, any number of variables could have prevented him from making a runway and that would have been truly disastrous.

He made the right decision with the limited info he had. He couldn't calculate that he would have made it to Teterboro.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
His decision to ditch was the most conservative, safest plan without any doubt and it provided the best chance for everyones survival.

Again, given the limited information that he had at his disposal he made the right decision.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
This electronic toy might be useful but it can't predict what the winds will be doing miles away, or which runway might be blocked etc..

This "electronic toy" does predict the wind... and not just at one runway but at every airport within gliding distance of the plane.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
Useful but no panacea and certainly not a Pilot replacement.

No one is saying that the VP-400 is a pilot replacement but it is one more feature in the suite of technologies that will enable commercial single pilot ops.

[Edited 2012-05-05 01:11:07]
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zeke
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 9:44 am

Quoting planemaker (Thread starter):
.

Pitty it is not certified

Quote:
Certification The VP-400 is for use only with experimental and light sport aircraft only
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tdscanuck
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
Forget about possibly landing short, how about the system guiding you to a runway with other aircraft on it?

Then don't land on the runway. Airports have plenty of clear, obstacle-free area (taxiways, grass beside runways, etc.). If you know you can make the field then it's almost certainly the best open landing area available even if the runway is blocked. Plus ARFF is extremely close at hand. The risk profile is way better than ditching but relies, crucially, on whether you know you can make the field or just think you can. It's that decision that this technology is designed to help with.

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):

There's no doubt that this will have good use in the GA field, but to try and make it seem like this would have made the outcome of US1549 better is rather disingenuous - it could have, but it also could have made it worse)

How could it have made it worse? Two completely competent pilots aren't going to intentionally run into another aircraft. What would have happened if there were boats at the touchdown point on the river? The Hudson is way more crowded (and uncontrolled) with boats than a typical runway environment.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
His decision to ditch was the most conservative, safest plan without any doubt and it provided the best chance for everyones survival.

Given the information at hand, absolutely. The whole point here is to improve the information at hand.

Tom.
 
cmf
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 2:01 pm

There are two types of people. Those who see something good and deal with the problems and those who find problems to avoid change.

I would like to understand how they handle emergencies with more damage than all engines out, e.g. flaps stuck, wing damage creating extra drag.

Guess it should come up automatically if all engines are out instead of the engines to idle and push a button.

Quoting zeke (Reply 20):
Pitty it is not certified

Will the OEMs license the technology, buy them or develop it them self?
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SPQR
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 22):

I'd guess for each plane type you would need the drag coefficients for as many possible configuration combinations as possible (flaps stuck retracted with gear stuck down etc) and once the system knows the issue, either by manual or automatic input, it can adjust the baseline glide by the new coefficient.

To be honest, I really don't understand why there is all the teeth gnashing over this system. It is a tool to assist pilots and (assuming it gets certified) should make flying safer, especially in the GA side of the house.
 
planemaker
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 22):
I would like to understand how they handle emergencies with more damage than all engines out, e.g. flaps stuck, wing damage creating extra drag.

Guess it should come up automatically if all engines are out instead of the engines to idle and push a button.

As I (and a few others in past threads) have pointed out, we already have the technology "to handle emergencies with more damage than all engines out". In addition to some real life examples of military aircraft returning with significant control surface battle damage and the pilot not even realizing it because the FBW system automatically compensated for the aerodynamic effects caused by the damage, flight control law testing was carried out on an experimental F-18 where the outboard third of one wing was blown off and the F-18 was still able to maintain normal flight.

In past discussions regarding single-pilot operations, probably the biggest issue that people are concerned about is pilot incapacitation. Even though the technology to deal with incapacitation has been around for quite a while, many people do not understand state of the art technology, or the integration of bleeding edge technology (let alone what the exponential advancement in information technology signifies in 10 years). The VP-400 demonstrates, now, to the "doubting Thomas" only one way that eliminates the issue of pilot incapacitation.

Just imagine how easier it would have been if this women had one of these on board...
80 Year Old Woman Lands Plane In Emergency

Quoting cmf (Reply 22):
Will the OEMs license the technology, buy them or develop it them self?

Interesting question. I believe that the major avionics OEMs would probably just write their own software and integrate it into their existing avionics line up.

Quoting spqr (Reply 23):
To be honest, I really don't understand why there is all the teeth gnashing over this system. It is a tool to assist pilots and (assuming it gets certified) should make flying safer, especially in the GA side of the house.

The "gnashing" typically comes from people that don't understand technology and are fearful of the "rise of machines" or pilots that think that information technology will never match their abilities and hence we can never have single pilot commercial operations.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
cmf
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 24):
As I (and a few others in past threads) have pointed out, we already have the technology "to handle emergencies with more damage than all engines out".

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for systems like this. I'm just trying to understand how it compensates for parameters other than engine out that may come in to play.

With that, don't the systems compensating for damaged wings, etc. relying on higher thrust setting to compensate? With engines out it would not be available and thus glide distance will be much shorter. Which must to be accounted for.

It may be as easy as constantly monitoring glide rate achieved but is it available before the pilots make their decision of where to land?
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tdscanuck
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
I'm just trying to understand how it compensates for parameters other than engine out that may come in to play.

Which parameters do you need to compensate for? The set of failures that don't allow you to fly (i.e. you're in a forced decent) but don't involve an engine problem is pretty small.

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
With that, don't the systems compensating for damaged wings, etc. relying on higher thrust setting to compensate?

Yes.

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
With engines out it would not be available and thus glide distance will be much shorter. Which must to be accounted for.

That's a combination failure of engine out *and* structural damage impacting glide range...although certainly possible, either of those failures alone are pretty unlikely so the combination is *really* unlikely.

Tom.
 
cmf
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
The set of failures that don't allow you to fly (i.e. you're in a forced decent) but don't involve an engine problem is pretty small.

Maybe I'm wrong but I understand it only being used if all engines are out.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
That's a combination failure of engine out *and* structural damage impacting glide range...although certainly possible, either of those failures alone are pretty unlikely so the combination is *really* unlikely.

As you say all engines out are rare. Maybe engines out and additional damage is so rare it shouldn't be considered.

I expected the likelihood of additional problems to be higher when you have reached the rare event of engines out. Thinking it would be part of the cause for all engines out. Maybe such an event is too unlikely to affect all engines.
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bueb0g
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sat May 05, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting planemaker (Thread starter):
This ties in with previous threads that that SP commercial ops are an inevitability within the next 10-15 years.

Possibly for cargo... And even there pretty unlikely. You seem to be pushing this point on most posts I see by you, but I feel that you've probably been saying that for 10 or 20 years.

Thales have said that the earliest they see the technology existing for single pilot commercial ops (not specifically pax), and even then, only for regional flights, will be 2035. That's the earliest the tech will exist, not when it will be able to be implemented. When it is implemented, it'll be on cargo planes.

Anyway, the fact of the matter is that both the A320's and the 737's replacements (not their upgrades, their replacements) will be dual pilot airliners, and if the current generation of narrowbodies are anything to go by, we'll be seeing them in the air (if not being built) for a good 40 years or so.

This technology posted here is no doubt exciting however, and will undoubtedly be useful on GA planes, although there's only a very small pool of GA aircraft that will find use for it. First, you'll have to have an autopilot - which most don't, and electric flaps and trim. Seems a bit of a gimmick at the moment.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
planemaker
Topic Author
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 27):
Maybe I'm wrong but I understand it only being used if all engines are out.

It is a back up EFIS as well so would be used if there is a PFD and MFD failure or, very rare, dual pilot incapacitation, for example.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 28):
Possibly for cargo... And even there pretty unlikely.

Why unlikely? With the DoD's UAS strategy we'll see SP ops on military aircraft first. In fact, several armed forces are developing UAV cargo carriers.

However, in the civilian field, GE and the FAA have been doing studies on "reduced crew" options for cargo flights for the end of the decade.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 28):
You seem to be pushing this point on most posts I see by you, but I feel that you've probably been saying that for 10 or 20 years.

Actually, I've been on here for fewer than 10 years and relatively few of my posts are about SP but It may seem like it is because I'm one of the few on here that see that SP is much closer than many can imagine (or just can't imagine it at all). As I've noted earlier, this system deals with one of the big issues that naysayers use to say the SP ops are impossible.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 28):
Thales have said that the earliest they see the technology existing for single pilot commercial ops (not specifically pax), and even then, only for regional flights, will be 2035. That's the earliest the tech will exist, not when it will be able to be implemented. When it is implemented, it'll be on cargo planes.

Not so... Thales in fact said:

Quote:
Thales Aerospace has followed Embraer in setting out its thinking on the possible introduction of single-crew capable airliners, as part of its "Cockpit 3.0" studies aimed at the 2030 timeframe.

Moreover, it was for wide-bodies. Furthermore, the technology does already exist, for example...

Quote:

Pro Line Fusion® powered by Ascend™ is Rockwell Collins' latest generation integrated, information-enabled, avionics suite for business jet and commercial transport aircraft.

. . .the system readily adapts to both single- and two-pilot operations.

EMB will be using the Pro Line Fusion for the KC-390. And in the commercial field EMB said:

Quote:
Vice-president for airline market intelligence Luiz Sergio Chiessi says the Brazilian manufacturer is looking to provide "single-pilot capability, at least" in the 2020-25 timeframe.

.
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 28):
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that both the A320's and the 737's replacements (not their upgrades, their replacements) will be dual pilot airliners, and if the current generation of narrowbodies are anything to go by, we'll be seeing them in the air (if not being built) for a good 40 years or so.

I wouldn't say it is a "fact" in the sense that you say though they will indeed have two seats up front. Their all-new NB replacements are looking like they will EIS closer to 2030... when Thales imagines SP introduction and 5-10 years after EMB envisions SP introduction.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 28):
This technology posted here is no doubt exciting however, and will undoubtedly be useful on GA planes, although there's only a very small pool of GA aircraft that will find use for it. First, you'll have to have an autopilot - which most don't, and electric flaps and trim. Seems a bit of a gimmick at the moment.

Actually, you don't need an autopilot... with the VP-400 you have the option of hand flying the calculated glide path by following the HITS symbology to the runway (they also have a non-autopilot model... the VP-300). BTW, most new GA aircraft have electric flaps and trims. In fact, Cessna's 172s have had them for at least 40 years!! The VP-400 a gimmick? As mentioned by another poster, the most common aircraft crash factor is CFIT and this "gimmick" would largely help avoid CFIT.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
AR385
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 5):
The second pilot (nor the "first") can do what this system does... calculate in real-time the best runway to glide to (30 times EVERY second!)

It would personally take a lot of convincing for someone to get me, now or in 2030, to board a commercial flight that is flown by one pilot only. Period. And I know a thing or two about airliners. It´s not the same as when the two pilot cockpits were introduced around the late 70s, early 80s. That was about getting rid of one person that in many cases was not a pilot. But going from two to one? The philosophy of it is just daunting and many people will be against it. The technology may be there, but implementing it is not going to be easy.

As an interesting application for single engine GA planes, seems feasible. Mainline commercial aircraft? I don´t think so.
 
Max Q
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 5:38 am

Pretty amazing to see Captain Sully being second guessed here.



He had seconds to make a decision that turned out to be correct for everyone. This gadget could be useful in certain circumstances but, as I said it still cannot tell what the wind will be miles away, it can predict but not 'know' what they are it cannot tell if a runway is blocked and it cannot tell the condition of the Aircraft.



With the damage to his Aircraft he could have had problems with flight controls, in an attempt to return to an airport, he might not have been able to lower the flaps / landing gear or had problems with brakes, the list of potential problems is endless even if he might have made it back to an airport, and, I must emphasise, if he had landed short of a runway in Manhattan the crash would most likely have killed everyone on the Aircraft plus who knows how many on the ground.


Not worth the risk.


This is why we have human Pilots


I would be willing to bet those that think he could have done a better job are not Pilots.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
planemaker
Topic Author
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 6:31 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
It would personally take a lot of convincing for someone to get me, now or in 2030, to board a commercial flight that is flown by one pilot only. Period.

It is understandable that some people are going to have fears.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
And I know a thing or two about airliners.

But not as much as Embraer, GE, FAA, THALES, etc. who believe that there will single pilot commercial ops.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
The technology may be there, but implementing it is not going to be easy.

How so?

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
Pretty amazing to see Captain Sully being second guessed here.

No one is "second guessing" Sully.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
He had seconds to make a decision that turned out to be correct for everyone.

As has already been stated a few times, he made the best decision given the resources he had.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
This gadget could be useful in certain circumstances but, as I said it still cannot tell what the wind will be miles away, it can predict but not 'know' what they are

Yes, it 'knows'.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
it cannot tell if a runway is blocked

If the runway is closed, it does. And if some utility vehicle just happens to break down on the runway just when the aircraft is approaching the runway I assume ATC would remember to warn the pilot the runway just became blocked.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
and it cannot tell the condition of the Aircraft.

And why wouldn't it?

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
I must emphasise, if he had landed short of a runway in Manhattan the crash would most likely have killed everyone on the Aircraft plus who knows how many on the ground.

The approach to LGA RWY 13 is mainly over water.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
This is why we have human Pilots

And that is part of the problem... and why we currently need two pilots. Few pilots have the skill set, capability and experience of Sully.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
I would be willing to bet those that think he could have done a better job are not Pilots.

No is saying they could do better than Sully.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
AR385
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 7:31 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
But not as much as Embraer, GE, FAA, THALES, etc. who believe that there will single pilot commercial ops.

Brushing aside your attempt to make me appear dumb, I would also say that throughout history many companies have tried or have said something that they believe will happen and have found themselves in front of a brick wall when selling that to the public. Besides, you´d be surprised how many people in companies with fantastic sounding names as the ones you´ve quoted are so far out there, in the fringe somewhere, that what they believe or say has no connection to the real world.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
How so?

If you keep responding to posts in your own thread with questions already answered to, we will get nowhere. The response to your "How so?" is on my original post #30. Read it again.
 
planemaker
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 8:28 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):
I would also say that throughout history many companies have tried or have said something that they believe will happen and have found themselves in front of a brick wall when selling that to the public.

Some people were frightened to take elevators at one time without an onboard operator. Now, no one even thinks about it.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):
Besides, you´d be surprised how many people in companies with fantastic sounding names as the ones you´ve quoted are so far out there, in the fringe somewhere, that what they believe or say has no connection to the real world.

There is nothing "so far out" about SP ops... it is actually very straight forward.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):
The response to your "How so?" is on my original post #30. Read it again.

I have read you post again, twice, and all you provide are personal opinions with no substantiation.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
AR385
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 8:50 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 34):
I have read you post again, twice, and all you provide are personal opinions with no substantiation.

No. The following is not a personal opinion without substantiation. It is a fact. Do your research. If it was difficult to get rid of the Second Officer, don´t you think getting rid of the FIRST officer is going to be difficult?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
It´s not the same as when the two pilot cockpits were introduced around the late 70s, early 80s. That was about getting rid of one person that in many cases was not a pilot.

I´m sorry you had to read my post twice. Maybe your ideas are too set in one point of view and are making you have to waste time reading stuff twice. I ceratinly feel sorry but it is really not my fault.

Now about this jewel:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 34):
Some people were frightened to take elevators at one time without an onboard operator. Now, no one even thinks about it.

Not only have you said that Captain Sullenberger was essentially an amateur who should have done this...could have done that...but did this...the least advisable thing... as in already pointed out to you below:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
Pretty amazing to see Captain Sully being second guessed here.

You are actually comparing the operation of an elevator to a commercial airliner of this age?, which is one of the most advanced machines we will ever see in our time. A twin engine, 4 humans required to operate on ULH flights, state of the art materials employed on its construction, and a technology with many derivatives down the line?

Fine. Still, your comparison makes no sense. An elevator boy is not a fully qualified First Officer.
 
tribird1011
Posts: 196
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 8:52 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
This gadget could be useful in certain circumstances but, as I said it still cannot tell what the wind will be miles away, it can predict but not 'know' what they are

Yes, it 'knows'.

I call BS on this one. It may guess what the wind is, but it cannot know it. Thrown in some weird weather patterns (global warming, perhaps...) and you get yourself some funky wind patterns. Over the last couple of weeks listening to approach control and control tower at YYZ, pilots were all asking why they were flying the approach with a tailwind, only to be told that it would change to a headwind somewhere between 200 and 500 AGL. It was a gradual transition, so there were no windshear reports --

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
and it cannot tell the condition of the Aircraft.

And why wouldn't it?

That's a lot of sensors needed then - wonder if it would have told the Air Transat A310 crew back in 2000 or so when they physically lost the rudder on climb out from Cuba?

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
And that is part of the problem... and why we currently need two pilots. Few pilots have the skill set, capability and experience of Sully.


Quoting Max Q (Reply 31):
I would be willing to bet those that think he could have done a better job are not Pilots.

No is saying they could do better than Sully


The fact that humans are not perfect is not a problem - it's a fact, ideally 2 humans can "cancel" out each others imperfections (not always, but seems to work pretty well now) - so you want to replace the "cancelling" out aspect of 2 humans with a (let's call it perfect, even though we know that's not the case) machine. That 1 human now can still create errors by not activating the machine at the right time, or in the wrong sequence.

No one is saying they are better than Sully, but if they have earned their 4 stripes, and are flying some heavy metal, I would expect them to be just as good as Sully.
 
planemaker
Topic Author
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 9:52 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 35):
No. The following is not a personal opinion without substantiation. It is a fact. Do your research. If it was difficult to get rid of the Second Officer, don´t you think getting rid of the FIRST officer is going to be difficult?

You never explained yourself. From a job loss perspective of course there was resistance initially but then look at how easily the 747 went from 3 to 2 pilots.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 35):
Not only have you said that Captain Sullenberger was essentially an amateur who should have done this.

I haven't even remotely said that.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 35):
You are actually comparing the operation of an elevator to a commercial airliner of this age?

Again, I did not say that at all. My statement was clearly about unfounded fears.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 36):
I call BS on this one. It may guess what the wind is, but it cannot know it.

Yes, it does know because it gets the airport wind date from FIS-B.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 36):
That's a lot of sensors needed then

You just have to look at the increase in data capture with each passing iteration of airframe and engine.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 36):
so you want to replace the "cancelling" out aspect of 2 humans with a (let's call it perfect, even though we know that's not the case) machine.

it is really software not a "machine" and I am just echoing what many in the industry see eventually happening, and I obviously agree with them. If one really understands the accelerating rate of progress in information technology it is an inescapable conclusion.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 36):
No one is saying they are better than Sully, but if they have earned their 4 stripes, and are flying some heavy metal, I would expect them to be just as good as Sully.

But the facts are that there are few.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
tribird1011
Posts: 196
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 10:41 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 37):
But the facts are that there are few.

I'm not sure how many pilots you have met, but that is a very bold statement to make!!
 
cmf
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
It would personally take a lot of convincing for someone to get me, now or in 2030, to board a commercial flight that is flown by one pilot only

I've taken many commercial flights flown by one pilot only.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):
you´d be surprised how many people in companies with fantastic sounding names as the ones you´ve quoted are so far out there, in the fringe somewhere, that what they believe or say has no connection to the real world.

Seems you will be surprised if you look up what people said when many of the things we today take for granted were introduced.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 11:56 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
It would personally take a lot of convincing for someone to get me, now or in 2030, to board a commercial flight that is flown by one pilot only.

There are tons of single pilot commercial flights today. The *only* thing unusual about single pilot airliner Part 121 ops is the size of the aircraft. And size has nothing to do with technology.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 36):
I call BS on this one. It may guess what the wind is, but it cannot know it. Thrown in some weird weather patterns (global warming, perhaps...) and you get yourself some funky wind patterns.

This is technically true, but it's just as true for *all* landing calculations in any circumstances. No pilot in a low-altitude dual-engine out is going to stop to get the ATIS for multiple airports in the area and do the cross/head/tail component calculations for each runway. This device does that.

This is not a panacea; it helps improve situational awareness. It's a decision tool to *help* the existing pilot do their job. That's a good thing. If the pilot loses situational awareness to the extend that they really don't know what to do (possible, but a good pilot needs to recognize when it happens) this device at least gives them one more option they didn't have before.

I find it odd to see people resisting a technology that gives the pilot more information faster than they could get before, helps them make a crucial decision faster, and keeps control with the pilot unless the pilot gives it away, to be a bad thing.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 36):

That's a lot of sensors needed then - wonder if it would have told the Air Transat A310 crew back in 2000 or so when they physically lost the rudder on climb out from Cuba?

Although that's really a different technology, this type of issue was the whole point behind NASA's adaptive control system that was most spectacularly demonstrated when it successfully kept an F/A-18 going with 1/3 of the wing blown off (and the control system wasn't told what the failure would be in advance). It managed to reconfigure the control system in seconds to restore stability. The principle works for all failures that are flyable (there's nothing any control system can do about unflyable failures). It's also something that's physically impossible for most pilots to do, especially to do quickly, there's just too much math involved.

Tom.
 
bueb0g
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 12:47 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 29):
Moreover, it was for wide-bodies. Furthermore, the technology does already exist, for example...

Actually, it was for regional aircraft. Also, I think it's important to note that Embraer said that "Airlines are not coming to us with the idea" - e.g, it is not something that airlines are interested in at the moment, at least for the timeframe that Thales and Embraer are talking about. As such, the 10-15 year estimate seems very outlandish.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
planemaker
Topic Author
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 38):
I'm not sure how many pilots you have met, but that is a very bold statement to make!!

Irrespective of the pilots I know, it is not a bold statement at all. One only has to look at Sully's CV to recognize it.

Quoting cmf (Reply 39):
Seems you will be surprised if you look up what people said when many of the things we today take for granted were introduced.

The list seems endless... starting with flying:

Quote:
“Man Will Not Fly For Fifty Years”

And who said that? Wilbur to Orville In 1901!  
.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 40):
This is not a panacea; it helps improve situational awareness. It's a decision tool to *help* the existing pilot do their job. That's a good thing. If the pilot loses situational awareness to the extend that they really don't know what to do (possible, but a good pilot needs to recognize when it happens) this device at least gives them one more option they didn't have before.

And it not just improves situational awareness... if a pilot chooses to hit the "runway seeker" button the system will fly the aircraft on an optimum glide path to the selected runway and gives a pilot the opportunity to trouble shoot, deal with communications, etc, etc, without the stress of doing so while also hand flying the aircraft.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 40):
I find it odd to see people resisting a technology that gives the pilot more information faster than they could get before, helps them make a crucial decision faster, and keeps control with the pilot unless the pilot gives it away, to be a bad thing.


What I think it comes down to is resisting (or rejecting) the implications. And underlying that is either apprehension/fear, job loss/loss of prestige and/or lack of knowledge.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 41):
Actually, it was for regional aircraft.

Nope...

Quote:
Thales Aerospace is busy developing the flight decks for the Sukhoi Superjet 100, ATR 600 series, Sikorsky S-76D and Airbus A350 at its Toulouse facility. At the same time, the company is working to visualize what the cockpit of a next-generation widebody might look like 20 years from now. The biggest potential breakthrough from this could be single pilot operations for commercial aircraft.


But it really is entirely a moot point, ... the avionics for a regional aircraft would be hardly different than for a narrowbody or for a widebody. That is one of the great benefits with FBW (and in the future FBL) and, increasingly, electric control systems.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 41):
Also, I think it's important to note that Embraer said that "Airlines are not coming to us with the idea" - e.g, it is not something that airlines are interested in at the moment, at least for the timeframe that Thales and Embraer are talking about.

There is no reason to "note". First, airlines are not ordering airplanes for delivery 15-20 years out. Second, enabling technology is advancing irregardless. However, would airlines be interested? Of course they would be.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 41):
As such, the 10-15 year estimate seems very outlandish.

Considering the accelerating rate of information technology advancement it isn't at all "outlandish" that we could begin to start seeing SP ops, especially on cargo flights followed by regional flights.

[Edited 2012-05-06 14:39:30]
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4637
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 10):

It isn't a claim but a fact from the NTSB report
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 11):
Then the NTSB and FAA are "flippin stupid". Postflight analysis (and simualtor work) showed that he could have made the airport if he'd immediately turned back the second the birds hit.

And hindsight is always 20/20. As ghifty says:

Quoting ghifty (Reply 14):


The whole point of 30x redundancy is to calculate, I assume, the best landing point for the aircraft at that very instant. It's not like the wind outside always blows at a constant speed..

So what happens when the system says you can make it, but then a variable changes? You wind up with a fully loaded Airbus into NYC.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 19):
If 1539 would have had this technology onboard it would have landed at Teterboro... which is far better than ditching.

But earlier you said if 1549 had the system it would have landed at LGA. So which is it?

Quoting planemaker (Reply 19):
No one is saying that the SP (Brazil)">VP-400 is a pilot replacement

Uh, you did in the first post!

Quoting planemaker (Thread starter):
...SP commercial ops are an inevitability within the next 10-15 years. I have often said in past SP discussions that we have the technology to do this in response to concerns about pilot incapacitation
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 40):


I find it odd to see people resisting a technology that gives the pilot more information faster than they could get before, helps them make a crucial decision faster, and keeps control with the pilot unless the pilot gives it away, to be a bad thing.

The technology is not a bad thing, and it would be a great tool... but it can't replace a pilot.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
planemaker
Topic Author
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
And hindsight is always 20/20. As ghifty says:

Nothing... absolutely nothing discussed has been about hindsight. It has been clearly stated that given the circumstances and the resources that he had... he absolutely took the correct course of action!! It is unfortunate that people cannot quote that even though it has been repeated several times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
So what happens when the system says you can make it, but then a variable changes? You wind up with a fully loaded Airbus into NYC.

You mean like its suddenly a white out/zero-zero conditions and then the only way to effectively navigate is to use the FLIR capability and the HITS symbology of the system.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
But earlier you said if 1549 had the system it would have landed at LGA. So which is it?

It isn't either or... as I said... if Flt. 1459 had had a similar system to the SP (Brazil)">VP-400 on board it would have shown that they would have made it back to LGA at the time of the bird strike but... more importantly, the system would also have shown that they would have made Teterboro as well.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
Uh, you did in the first post!

No, I did not.

This is what I in fact said what I said in the first post: This ties in with previous threads that SP commercial ops are an inevitability within the next 10-15 years. I have often said in past SP discussions that we have the technology to do this in response to concerns about pilot incapacitation and it is neat to already see a low-level system on the market at an affordable price point.

I honestly don't know why people cannot simply quote what I said. If the above wasn't clear enough then there is the quote in the next response.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
The technology is not a bad thing, and it would be a great tool... but it can't replace a pilot.

Once again, for the record...

Quote:
No one is saying that the system is a pilot replacement but it is one more feature in the suite of technologies that will enable commercial single pilot ops.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Pihero
Posts: 4199
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Sun May 06, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 11):

Then the NTSB and FAA are "flippin stupid". Postflight analysis (and simualtor work) showed that he could have made the airport if he'd immediately turned back the second the birds hit. But it's not reasonable for a crew to make that assessment that fast; the crew made exactly the right decision given the processes they had to follow. However, if they'd had instant access to a tool that would have told them they could make the airport...

One of the aspects of that magic box I'm certainly not buying : They say winds aloft are "(quote) derived internally " (unquote) and later they say that :'once the seeker is engaged the path is locked in and steering and energy is managed against that flight path."... in my book, that's called throwing the dice into the fracking wind and the stupidest comment is about Sully managing to land back where he came from, of course being alone in the sky and the vicinity of a few very quiet airports in a third world country with very little aviation traffic... Yeah, Quite !!!
By the way, we pilots are strictly discouraged to try and return to our departing airport with a failure on initial climb... Wonder why ?   

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
if some utility vehicle just happens to break down on the runway just when the aircraft is approaching the runway I assume ATC would remember to warn the pilot the runway just became blocked.

With the very little energy the pilot has left, I assume that he could reject the landing and go for another circuit, right ?

What I find most amusing is that the builders of that contraption apparently think pilots have never ever ever thought of keeping tabs on emergency (air)fields : flying a light airplane, I have points on my wings and on my glareshield that tell me that fields closer than those points are reachable with an engine failure. On an airliner,, I just divide by four my flight level, switch on airport data and anything within that distance is landable. (Guess why 1/4 ).
Your box doesn't do much more ... Oh it can fly, too ? So can I, as a pilot I'm quite good at multitasking.
Btw, I learned these techniques more than forty years ago... and they certainly were not new

So, just another frustrated engineer's wet dream.
Contrail designer
 
Maverick623
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Mon May 07, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 44):

You mean like its suddenly a white out/zero-zero conditions and then the only way to effectively navigate is to use the FLIR capability and the HITS symbology of the system.

Wow. A pilot could do that. What a pilot (nor any system) can do is predict winds, traffic, or the big one: risk. Your system doesn't care about the thousands of people that would be affected if the system made an judgement based on erroneous or incomplete information.

I'd put a heavy wager that if the system were installed on 1549, the plane still would have been in the Hudson. No way in hell would either pilot try to muscle that plane over such heavily populated areas.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Mon May 07, 2012 5:09 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
So, just another frustrated engineer's wet dream.

Why is a pilot having more access to information a bad thing? This box is a tool like many others. As one of those private pilots, I can certainly see a use for it. It doesn't have to do everything to be able to do some things.

It's like autopilot...it's not necessary but sure does come in handy sometimes.

Conceptually, I think it may be a good thing. Since I haven't used it in practice, I can't say if it would be useful to me or not, but I'm not going to automatically rule out its potential for usefulness under some circumstances.
What the...?
 
planemaker
Topic Author
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Mon May 07, 2012 8:07 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
One of the aspects of that magic box I'm certainly not buying :

No one is in any way claiming or portraying that this is a "magic box." Very much the opposite... starting with the initial post: "it is neat to already see a low-level system on the market at an affordable price point."

It is almost comical at this point that people are still trying to twist this thread into something that it is not.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
With the very little energy the pilot has left, I assume that he could reject the landing and go for another circuit, right ?

I was being very facetious but perhaps the delivery was too subtle to understand.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
What I find most amusing is that the builders of that contraption apparently think pilots have never ever ever thought of keeping tabs on emergency (air)fields : flying a light airplane, I have points on my wings and on my glareshield that tell me that fields closer than those points are reachable with an engine failure.

What I find "amusing" is how you ignore the most valuable features of why he built this "magic box"... this "contraption", just so that you can go on preening about what a wonderful VFR pilot you are.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 46):
A pilot could do that.

But only with that type of system.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 46):
What a pilot (nor any system) can do is predict winds, traffic, or the big one: risk.

Yes, a system can indeed do all those things... and better and faster than any human.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 46):
Your system doesn't care about the thousands of people that would be affected if the system made an judgement based on erroneous or incomplete information.

Well... it isn't my system and, second, the people that program the software do care, obviously.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 46):
I'd put a heavy wager that if the system were installed on 1549, the plane still would have been in the Hudson. No way in hell would either pilot try to muscle that plane over such heavily populated areas.

They didn't have to "try to muscle"... Airbus are FBW that use side-stick controllers and as was pointed out earlier, LGA is surrounded by water.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 47):
Why is a pilot having more access to information a bad thing? This box is a tool like many others.

As I pointed out earlier, such a system sure would have made life easier for that 80 year old women when her husband lost consciousness at the controls. So aside from pilot incapacitation, there's engine failure, VFR into IMC and EFIS failure... all of which would be compounded if they happened at night.
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tdscanuck
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RE: New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway

Mon May 07, 2012 8:42 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
One of the aspects of that magic box I'm certainly not buying : They say winds aloft are "(quote) derived internally " (unquote)

It's probably intertial wind, exactly the same thing that current airliners use for winds aloft. It's quite accurate in the short/near term...like for glide times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
the stupidest comment is about Sully managing to land back where he came from

Which part about it do you find stupid? Do you think he couldn't have made it? Nobody's saying that he should have tried, just that it was physically possible.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
By the way, we pilots are strictly discouraged to try and return to our departing airport with a failure on initial climb... Wonder why ?

Because virtually all pilots grossly underestimate energy loss in a 180-degree turn and land short if they try. This is one of the maneuvers where technology of this type could really help.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
With the very little energy the pilot has left, I assume that he could reject the landing and go for another circuit, right ?

This is *always* a risk, no matter what landing spot you choose. Are you seriously claiming that, given the option between a river and an airfield, where the pilot has good information that he can safely make either one, you'd choose the river? Applying that argument generally, the pilot of an all-engine-out aircraft should never try to make an airfield because something might be on the runway.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
flying a light airplane, I have points on my wings and on my glareshield that tell me that fields closer than those points are reachable with an engine failure.

Do you move the dots in real time for wind and runway closures/length/capability?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
On an airliner,, I just divide by four my flight level, switch on airport data and anything within that distance is landable.

Ah yes, the airport data switch...also "just another frustrated engineer's wet dream". *REAL* pilots only need two ADF's and a sectional.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 45):
So, just another frustrated engineer's wet dream.

Yes. Just like EGPWS, TCAS, autopilot, FBW, autobrake, GPS, FMC, EICAS...

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 46):
I'd put a heavy wager that if the system were installed on 1549, the plane still would have been in the Hudson.

That's probably true and completely fine. With this widget he'd have had one more option too. It also would have given him better assurance that he could glide to the Hudson. How is this bad?

Tom.