skipness1E
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How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Sun May 06, 2012 10:23 pm

I make it 33 aircraft built in total with 886 and 894 remaining unsold. Both were intended and painted for Kingfisher but are currently stored. Are they still in Kingfisher colours at Toulouse?
Also whatever happened to TS-KRT, cn 902? Is it still active?

The reason I ask is that with the Air Canada / TAM A345s, the Thai A345s and the above stored, the inactive fleet stands at ten? Is that right?
 
phxa340
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Sun May 06, 2012 10:34 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Thread starter):
The reason I ask is that with the Air Canada / TAM A345s, the Thai A345s and the above stored, the inactive fleet stands at ten? Is that right?
http://www.planespotters.net/Product...ist/Airbus/A340/A340-500/index.php

Gives a good idea , it says only 7 are stored.
 
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zkojq
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting skipness1E (Thread starter):
I make it 33 aircraft built in total with 886 and 894 remaining unsold. Both were intended and painted for Kingfisher but are currently stored. Are they still in Kingfisher colours at Toulouse?

MSN 886 (F-WWTG) is still in Kingfisher Colours.
MSN 894 (F-WWTH) has a white fuselage and red engines. Not so long ago Airbus intended to sell it to Sonair who apparently wanted to operate it for the Zimbabwean government however that deal never went through.
Quoting skipness1E (Thread starter):
Also whatever happened to TS-KRT, cn 902? Is it still active?
http://storage.canalblog.com/10/57/594547/71324623.jpg
As of late 2011 it was stored at Bordeaux. As a symbol of the former Tunisian autocrat's greed, I doubt the new Tunisian government want it. I'm sure that as it probably has a (very expensive) VIP interior, it will eventually be bought by another autocrat/government or one of the super rich.

Quoting skipness1E (Thread starter):
The reason I ask is that with the Air Canada / TAM A345s, the Thai A345s and the above stored, the inactive fleet stands at ten? Is that right?

Seven, it seems - but that is still too many. Such a waste to have an aircraft that good looking stuck on the ground. I don't think the Thai A340s have been stored just yet. Thai recently announced that they plan to restore/retire them but I don't think they have actually done so yet.
First to fly the 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE (2014-10-09, NZ103)
 
beeweel15
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 5:35 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 2):
Seven, it seems - but that is still too many. Such a waste to have an aircraft that good looking stuck on the ground.

Is the A340-500 that inefficient and what missions can it do and make some money for who ever operates the aircraft
 
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Stitch
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 5:44 am

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 3):
Is the A340-500 that inefficient and what missions can it do and make some money for who ever operates the aircraft.

The main issue is that ULH operations are just intrinsically hard to sustain at a profitable level because the fuel costs are so high - a fair bit of the fuel you burn is used to move the fuel needed for the mission. The A340-500 is also hampered by being very heavy for it's size - it's about ~10% larger than an A340-300, but it weighs ~30% more empty.

It's future will be as a VIP / Business Jet or as spares, unfortunately.



Quoting zkojq (Reply 2):
Such a waste to have an aircraft that good looking stuck on the ground.

So true. It is a very aesthetically pleasing aircraft to the eye and in TG's colors was quite stunning.

[Edited 2012-05-06 22:46:53]
 
mandala499
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 5:49 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 2):
As a symbol of the former Tunisian autocrat's greed, I doubt the new Tunisian government want it. I'm sure that as it probably has a (very expensive) VIP interior, it will eventually be bought by another autocrat/government or one of the super rich.

And rumors have it, it'll go to an Indonesian super rich... we'll wait to see if this one will end up being bought by someone...
But where the hell are they going to park it? (along with 1 or 2 ACJs for the former Tunisian autocrat).

Mandala499
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accargofra
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 8:12 am

Anyone an idea where the Air Canada / TAM A345s are actually stored/parked ?
 
SCL767
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting accargofra (Reply 6):
Anyone an idea where the Air Canada / TAM A345s are actually stored/parked ?

At MLA, in February, PT-MSN was damaged in a collision involving a tow truck at the Malta Airport:
http://bit.ly/J62GXo
 
Ferroviarius
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 10:46 am

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 3):
Is the A340-500 that inefficient and what missions can it do and make some money for who ever operates the aircraft

Good afternoon,

as has been pointed out by Stitch, ULH operations are intrinsically inefficient. One has to transport more fuel, more food and drinks and more staff in order to avoid an additional stop on the way.

Since the 345 is not ETOPS hampered, however, technically, I think - please, correct me - it would be feasible to make "one change airplane" travels from the entire Europe, specifically from the UK, to any place in Australia by using HEL as a hub. HEL-SYD is 8202 nautical miles according to the great circle mapper and should be feasible without considerable penalty even westbound. With a more or less considerable penalty, even New Zealand would be feasible from HEL.

So, instead of travelling via LHR or LGW, one would travel from any European airport to HEL, change airplanes there to an A345, and go then non-stop to any place in Australia.

Instead of, first, travelling to London, to change there to a 74? and go from LHR to any place in Australia with a stop in, e.g., Singapore or Hong Kong, one would use Helsinki instead of London as hub and avoid the landing in SIN, or HKG.

Why does it not happen?

Well, one can do the same thing replacing HEL with, e.g., DXB. While the total travelled distance LHR-DXB-SYD is longer by 271 nautical miles, only, than the total travelled distance LHR-HEL-SYD, using DXB as a hub avoids an UHL. DXB-SYD is by 6500nm, only, while HEL-SYD is by 8202nm.


On the other hand:
An airline well equipped with A319s, A320s and A321s could easily serve a lot of even minor European cities in order to provide access to the UHL flight to Australia in HEL. Technically, this would be much more difficult with DXB as hub, since the distances from Europe to DXB are so much longer then from Europe to HEL. HEL, from this point of view, would be a better hub. IF, and that's why this wouldn't work either, there would really be a demand from a lot of minor european places to go to Australia. This demand might more or less be concentrated in the UK - please correct me, if I am wrong.

Best wishes,

Ferroviarius
 
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lightsaber
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 1):
http://www.planespotters.net/Product...ist/Airbus/A340/A340-500/index.php

Gives a good idea , it says only 7 are stored.

Are not the Thai A345 being stored? In other words, 32% of the A340-500s built are already out of service before they are even one decade old.

Thanks for the link. I didn't realize 4 were in the hands of Airbus.

Lightsaber
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sandyb123
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 8):
Since the 345 is not ETOPS hampered, however, technically, I think - please, correct me - it would be feasible to make "one change airplane" travels from the entire Europe, specifically from the UK, to any place in Australia by using HEL as a hub. HEL-SYD is 8202 nautical miles according to the great circle mapper and should be feasible without considerable penalty even westbound. With a more or less considerable penalty, even New Zealand would be feasible from HEL.

It already is, fly EK from 30 European airports to over 100 destinations globally.

The A345 has a range of 8,670 NM, giving you a margin of 400 NM. I think that unless you had the HGW (High gross weight) A345 you'd struggle to do that regularly non-stop, especially westbound without a significant weight penalty.

As mentioned previously, the prohibitive cost of flying ULH rules it out on any flight legs were a reasonable one-stop alternative is possible. There are only 16 HGW A345s sold, with Thai and Airk being the only operators (IIRC Thai have grounded theirs).

Regardless, a 16+ hour flight time would start to become very uncomfortable, even in J/F. I can't see it happening on any aircraft type.

Sandyb123

[Edited 2012-05-07 09:39:25]
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skipness1E
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 10):
There are only 16 HGW A345s sold, with Thai and Airk being the only operators (IIRC Thai have grounded theirs).

How could you forget Singapore Etihad and Emirates ? tut tut !

Emirates 10
Etihad 4
QATAR Amiri Flight 1
Air Canada 2 - leased to TAM, now stored
Thai 5 - recently parked with LAX-BKK ending
Kingfisher 5 ntu, 2 went to Arik Air /HiFly
Algerian Govt 1
Kuwaiti Govt 2
Singapore 5

So 35 built, 3 have yet to enter service having been built for Kingfisher.
Stored total is 11 from 35 built comprising Thai + TAM + Algerian Govt + three unsold.

[Edited 2012-05-07 11:00:48]
 
sandyb123
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
How could you forget Singapore Etihad and Emirates ? tut tut !

Yeah, but I was talking about the HGW version as per

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 10):
There are only 16 HGW A345s sold

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Polot
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
How could you forget Singapore Etihad and Emirates ? tut tut !

Sandyb123 was only talking about the HGW version (which, iirc, many airlines were not happy about it becoming standard), not total A345s sold.
 
skipness1E
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 6:51 pm

Ahhh apologies to Sandy! That'll be A340-542 as opposed to A340-541 then?

In that case the only ones I can see were the five Kingfisher models, 7T-VPP and 9K-GBA / B for Kuwait which makes eight. The Thai A340-500s are ' 541s.
 
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Polot
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14):
Ahhh apologies to Sandy! That'll be A340-542 as opposed to A340-541 then?

Apparently there were 2 A340-541HGW built, one for Thai (their last A345) and the Tunisian plane.
 
skipness1E
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 9:06 pm

With the A340, the HGW was suffxed with a 'X'. The -541/542 refers to the engine only?
 
bennett123
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 9:25 pm

Is PT-MSN still at MLA?.
 
Independence76
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 10:06 pm

Wouldn't these be good temporary purchases for SWISS?
 
skipness1E
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 10:07 pm

I suggested that in the thread but someone pointed out they are looking for a capacity increase, something the A345 doesn't really offer.
 
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Stitch
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Mon May 07, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 19):
I suggested that in the thread but someone pointed out they are looking for a capacity increase, something the A345 doesn't really offer.

It is a larger plane, but only by about 10%. Swiss would be more interested in TG's A340-600s, but those are not expected to become available until 2015 (per TG's latest fleet plan, which has them exiting between 2015 and 2017).
 
corernagh14
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 11:13 am

It is a larger plane, but only by about 10%. Swiss would be more interested in TG's A340-600s, but those are not expected to become available until 2015 (per TG's latest fleet plan, which has them exiting between 2015 and 2017).

How many of these A340 -500/600 aircraft do we think will be in active airline service - daily? - from 2022 ? i.e within 20 years of the programs's first deliveries . Interesting to look and consider this with the high concentration in certain airlines and their fleet plans . Indeed are more China Eastern deals (10 a/c to be returned to Airbus and Boeing) probable in the coming years - or was the state interest the significant factor there?

The A340500/600 are technically beyond a credible freighter conversion and I can't see charter airlines considering these as viable aircraft types for their routes .......... if this is accurate even if sold for virtually nothing ($30m for some recently) where are these aircraft going by FY2022?? All views . thoughts welcome
 
koruman
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 11:35 am

If the range was just a fraction greater they might have become of interest for Virgin Australia to operate Perth-London non-stop.

Qantas is only interested in SYD-LHR non-stop, but of course Perth is where the money is earned and where the people with high disposable incomes in Australia now reside.

But the range is just slightly too low for this route.
 
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 11):
Thai 5

Thai 4 I think, plus 6 A346s.
 
connies4ever
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 10):

Regardless, a 16+ hour flight time would start to become very uncomfortable, even in J/F. I can't see it happening on any aircraft type.

Know an investment banker in YOW who does YOW-EWR-SIN every month. 22 days in SIN and 8/9 in YOW. He says the 19 hr haul from EWR to SIN is unbelievably tedious. Made bearable by sleeping pills.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
ben175
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 24):
Know an investment banker in YOW who does YOW-EWR-SIN every month. 22 days in SIN and 8/9 in YOW. He says the 19 hr haul from EWR to SIN is unbelievably tedious. Made bearable by sleeping pills.

I've flown SIN-EWR, EWR-SIN and LAX-SIN and they've been the 3 best flights I have ever had. Incredible service and incredible product onboard an incredible aircraft. I'm glad I've got to fly the 345, I don't think it's going to be around for years to come...
 
mcg
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 2:52 pm

What is the scrap value of an A340-500?
 
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Stitch
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 26):
What is the scrap value of an A340-500?

Whatever a scrapper is willing to pay.  

Market value for a 2003 delivery is around $41 million, but based on reports, nobody is willing to pay that.
 
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anfromme
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:35 pm

I just realised that I haven't been keeping up with A340-500 fleet movements enough in the last couple of years.
Didn't know that even TAM ones were returned already, with nobody taking them, and Thai are planning to sell theirs as well.
Such a pity for me as an aviation enthusiast, as I think the -500 is the most aesthetically pleasing of the A340 lineup; the proportions of the engines, the fuselage length - they all seem just right on it. I was on two of EK's A340-500s last year and quite liked the plane - nicer cabin than EK's A330s, and a bit quieter, too.
Aesthetics aside, though, it does seem that the -500 has a very narrow mission profile in which it operates efficiently enough to warrant having an additional fleet type. On top of that, ULH isn't exactly a hot market to begin with.
Does make me wonder where the A340-500 fleet is going to be 8 years from now.
Contrary to what has been said here before, I don't see why freighter conversions shouldn't be happening. Airbus already started a conversion programme for the A330 - don't think adapting that to the A340 should be too difficult, and there are going to be a bunch of A340s (besides the -500) in the next 10 years that will have reached the end of their reasonable service lives as pax planes.

As an aside: Ironically, of all the airlines operating the A340-500, SQ is one of them that hasn't indicated that it's trying to sell them, in the face of year-long rumours on a.net that they were going to drop them in favour of 777-200LRs.  
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Devilfish
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
Market value for a 2003 delivery is around $41 million, but based on reports, nobody is willing to pay that.

These may give us a rough idea.....

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_cost_price_for_airbus_A340

Quote:
"How much does used airbus a340 cost?

About $88 million for a 3 year old 340-500 airbus."




http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...oeing-airbus-idUKBRE83T1BR20120501

Quote:
"China Eastern's A340 fleet includes five A340-600s, until recently the world's longest jetliner and still relatively young at an average age of 8.3 years.

According to UK consultancy Ascend, the notional market value of these jets, which are due to be sold to Boeing, is $55 million each, but some dealers called the figure optimistic.

'The A340 is a difficult market and they will be competing with the manufacturer,' Bruenjes said, noting that Airbus already has nine A340s on its own list of trade-ins for sale.

'The value will mainly be in the engines, not so much the airframe. An existing operator might be interested in getting some at cheap prices, but we wouldn't pay more than $30 million each, and that's if we looked at them at all,' Bruenjes said."
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connies4ever
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 25):
I've flown SIN-EWR, EWR-SIN and LAX-SIN and they've been the 3 best flights I have ever had. Incredible service and incredible product onboard an incredible aircraft. I'm glad I've got to fly the 345, I don't think it's going to be around for years to come...

On, certainly SQ pay great attention to detail for their in-flight service on their ULH flights, EWR-SIN is all-J (IIRC 100 seats on the 345). It's just that, as my banker acquaintance says, after about 12 hours what you really, seriously want to do is step out and take a walk. And there's still 7-7.5 hours to go !
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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Stitch
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting anfromme (Reply 28):
Ironically, of all the airlines operating the A340-500, SQ is one of them that hasn't indicated that it's trying to sell them, in the face of year-long rumours on a.net that they were going to drop them in favour of 777-200LRs.   

Logically, SQ was never going to do that.  

They can't sell Economy seats on those missions so the ability of the 777-200LR to carry more Economy passengers is of no value. And the 5m shorter cabin of the 777-200LR means it can't fit as many Business Class seats as the A340-500.

And then there is the fact that the A340-500s are already paid for while even if Boeing and GE cut SQ a phenomenal deal to order the 777-200LR, the capital investment would still be on the order of $100-130 million (depending on when SQ placed an order). And Boeing and GE would likely not want to cut SQ a phenomenal deal on 5 777-200LRs as it would hurt them when it came time to sell them a good bit more than 5 777-300ERs.  

With an all-premium config, the cost of the fares easily overcomes the cost of the fuel to fly the customer. If not for the GFC and it's after effects knocking down premium travel to/from SIN, the flights would still be doing fine even with current Jet A prices.
 
mcg
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RE: How Many Unsold A340-500s?

Thu May 10, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
Whatever a scrapper is willing to pay.

I'm curious about this because so many seem to end up parked. If the operators don't want them, it would be logical that they would be scrapped. The catch might be that because there is such a small fleet in service, there is very little demand for parts, thus minimal scrap value. We've seen a similar scenarIo with the F9 318's, they've been scrapped because many components are usable on 319's and 320's, thus generating reasonable scrap value.