delta764
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 11:34 am

It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL. The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK, and of course some of the European routes once served from ATL like ARN, CPH have already been shifted to JFK. Is JFK really that much more viable than ATL?
 
bobnwa
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL. The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK, and of course some of the European routes once served from ATL like ARN, CPH have already been shifted to JFK. Is JFK really that much more viable than ATL?

It appears that Delta considers JFK more viable than ATL for some transatlantic operations or they wouldn't have the changes. Don't forget that DL has much more information available than we do
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL. The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK, and of course some of the European routes once served from ATL like ARN, CPH have already been shifted to JFK. Is JFK really that much more viable than ATL?

It isn't necessarily true that JFK is more viable than ATL for TATL flying. As with everything, it depends on the market and nature of the route.

ATL is a mega-hub and offers connectivity for TATL flights to just about everywhere. However it doesn't have the O&D feed, the tourist/VFR traffic from abroad, of the scale of global business in comparison to NYC. With NYC, (and other major cities in the Northeast) ATL isn't necessarily the best option since it requires back-tracking. People do this all the time, but there are other options

JFK on the other hand, doesn't have the connectivity of ATL but it does connect to many major domestic markets. However JFK has the O&D for the NYC market. In additional, some of the routes can use a 757 TATL which is not possible out of ATL.

In short they compliment each other. DL only has a finite amount of resources at JFK so it is in their best interest to route more of the connecting traffic over ATL (or DTW) instead of flowing it all through JFK, so they can focus more on the O&D traffic.
 
panamair
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 12:49 pm

JFK-Europe is also shorter stage length than ATL-Europe....and in the current fuel environment, every little bit helps...

About the only European destinations that ATL has left that are not served via JFK are the German ones - DUS, STR, and MUC; these do much better to ATL than JFK as there is a good amount of traffic headed to the South and Southeast US on these flights (especially the German auto manufacturers with plants in the US South, as well as lots of leisure traffic from Germany to places like RSW, SRQ, TPA, all of which are much better served via ATL).
 
cokepopper
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
European routes once served from ATL like ARN, CPH have already been shifte

One can argue shifting BACK to JFK as these flights started in JFK years ago to only have transferred to ATL now back to JFK.
 
jfk777
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 5:05 pm

Most of what works in Atlanta will work at JFK but what works at JFK will not always work in ATL. Certain routes from ATL to Stuggart, Munch and Dusseldorf work in ATL for Delta specific reason but may not work for other airlines in ATL. Dubai works well for DL in ATL but probably wouldn't work so well from JFK with Emirates at JFK.
 
incitatus
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL.

I noticed it as well. Delta's European operation at ATL is very close in size to what it was ten years ago.
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jfk777
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 6):
I noticed it as well. Delta's European operation at ATL is very close in size to what it was ten years ago.

Delta started in 1978 from ATL to LGW, then added Frankfurt, Paris and Amsterdam among teh early ones. But after nearly 40 years how many places would you like DL to fly to it hasn't ? Athens and TLV were stopped by may be Belgrade, Serbia or Zagreb would work from Atlanta ?
 
kotoka
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK

Is DL terminating the ATL-ACC flight altogether, or just cutting back on frequency?
 
BRJ
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting delta764 (Thread starter):
It seems like Delta is moving more transatlantic operations to JFK from ATL. The ACC with ROB tag is moving to JFK
Quoting kotoka (Reply 8):
Is DL terminating the ATL-ACC flight altogether, or just cutting back on frequency?

Wonder if JFK would go daily? Current operations is 3x weekly ATL and 4x JFK, correct? Continues to ROB and ABV depending on which days of the week.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting BRJ (Reply 9):
Wonder if JFK would go daily? Current operations is 3x weekly ATL and 4x JFK, correct? Continues to ROB and ABV depending on which days of the week.

It was stated in another thread that it will in fact go daily.
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jfklganyc
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 7:31 pm

Delta (along with AA and UA) seem to be discovering that major hubs in smaller cities may not be the best point for launching long haul international flights.

If you notice the trend over the last decade, there has been renewed interest in serving international flights out of smaller (yet more traditional) coastal hubs.

AA-JFK/LAX
UA-IAD
DL-JFK

International tourists and business want to visit 2 places in the US: NYC and LA. After that you have cities such as DC, Miami/Florida, Chicago, SFO.

Few people in Europe/Asia/Africa aspire to actually visit Dallas, Atlanta or Charlotte. I am not knocking those cities, just stating a fact.

What those secondary cities do have going for them is 1. Some sort of business market 2. Major connecting points by one dominant airline 3. Some need to actually travel to/from those cities with the population center in place


When you run JFK-Europe, the flight stands on its own with some feed.

When you run ATL-Europe, the flight needs A LOT of feed to make it work.

When you are in a sensitive fuel environment, the top scenario is better for all of the smaller European markets (long/thin) because you get a higher yield from a pax that flies on one flight NYC-Europe than you do from a pax that has to fly on two flights Florida-ATL-Europe.

In the latter, you just performed 2 takeoffs and 2 landings to transport that passenger, but you likely didn't command enough of an extra fare to cover the tag-on flight into ATL, so you are yielding less relative to what you have flown when you compare it to the nonstop customer from NYC to Europe
 
MAH4546
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
International tourists and business want to visit 2 places in the US: NYC and LA. After that you have cities such as DC, Miami/Florida, Chicago, SFO.

No, they do not just want to visit LA and NYC. Firstly, Miami gets more international tourists and more European tourists than LA. Secondly, San Francisco also gets a very large amount of international tourists, as does Orlando and Honolulu, not to mention Washington and Boston and, increasingly, Las Vegas.

Your point that they don't visit Atlanta, Charlotte, etc. is absolutely valid, but to argue they only visit LA and NYC is absurd.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
When you run JFK-Europe, the flight stands on its own with some feed.

Huge myth. Many JFK-Europe flights on AA and DL rely on more than 50% feed from other cities on the NYC-end.

It's flights from California and Florida that rely on the least amount of feed.

[Edited 2012-05-08 13:07:10]
a.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Tue May 08, 2012 8:47 pm

DL's current JFK terminal is horrible, however, with the new terminal project underway, this will no longer be an issue. Then, I'd expect more shift towards JFK from ATL, which is out of the way for flights from Europe, and only has a fraction of the o&d that JFK gets.
Now, when it comes to operations, JFK is busy mess with occasional long delays and frequent short delays, but ATL is not not busy either.
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jfklganyc
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 2:46 am

Depending on website it is either

NYC
LA
MIA

or

NYC
MIA
LA


Orlando is not in the top 3. Neither is SFO

[Edited 2012-05-08 19:53:02]
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting panamair (Reply 3):

IMO once the economy comes back JFK-MUC will happen on Delta. Its a huge hole in the JFK network. Also think OSL and LIS will happen with 57s at some point.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Huge myth. Many JFK-Europe flights on AA and DL rely on more than 50% feed from other cities on the NYC-end.

which is why Delta started pumping feed into JFK during BK.

Some flights like ATL-CPH/SVO/TLV will be back once the economy picks back up.
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stlAV8R
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 3:44 am

Delta also does "ITI" (international-to-international) traffic through ATL that it does not do through JFK so the connecting opportunities are greater in ATL. The percentage on the flights I am not aware of but I know its pretty common. I think a factor to be considered is that DL can maintain a more reliable schedule in ATL due to the traffic flowing better most of the time. These two alone should bring less risk and greater rewards.
 
asaad11
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 5:28 am

Does anyone see potentially a second JFK-TLV flight instead of bringing back ATL-TLV? Not that they will bring it back but if they did would a second JFK-TLV be more viable?
 
coopdogyo
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 6:03 am

JFK is gonna look more attractive to Delta now that they bought that refinery in Pennsylvania. According to an article in this weeks Aviation week owning the refinery is gonna reduce their fuel costs by around 7000 dollars on the average transatlantic flight. It will also force their competitors to bring more of their fuel through pipelines from the gulf forcing them to pay more to transport the oil.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 9:48 am

Quoting asaad11 (Reply 17):
Does anyone see potentially a second JFK-TLV flight instead of bringing back ATL-TLV? Not that they will bring it back but if they did would a second JFK-TLV be more viable

I sincerely doubt a second JFK flight. There is already a lot of service from JFK/EWR to TLV on CO/LY and service from PHL now from US. My guess is that you will see variations in the size of aircraft being used from JFK to TLV, but not another flight. ATL-TLV would only come back with a better economy and lower fuel costs. TLV is not a huge business market for many companies (although it does have some military and IT). You therefore have to look at where the demand is coming from (up North, particularly NYC) and where in the US the demand is going, such as JFK/LAX/MIA, all of which may comfortably be served via JFK/AMS/CDG.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 11:38 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):

Some flights like ATL-CPH/SVO/TLV will be back once the economy picks back up.

Don't count on it. It's not the economy that is the problem....it's fuel. And if the economy gets stronger, fuel will only go higher. Routes like ATL-CPH are marginal, thin routes that simply fail with high fuel prices.
 
BSLFRA
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 12:07 pm

My LAX-DUS Delta flight is now going via JFK and AMS and then to DUS with KL
 
B4REAL
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 12:11 pm

Another factor is that more cities are getting JFK service on Delta Connection carriers, so many markets can go across the pond with a shorter travel time.

Quoting panamair (Reply 3):
JFK-Europe is also shorter stage length than ATL-Europe....and in the current fuel environment, every little bit helps...

And some of the markets can be served by 757s, which opens some routes.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
Most of what works in Atlanta will work at JFK but what works at JFK will not always work in ATL.

Yep! NCE and VCE come to mind, especially premium cabin revenue pax.
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par13del
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
If you notice the trend over the last decade, there has been renewed interest in serving international flights out of smaller (yet more traditional) coastal hubs.

AA-JFK/LAX
UA-IAD
DL-JFK

International tourists and business want to visit 2 places in the US: NYC and LA. After that you have cities such as DC, Miami/Florida, Chicago, SFO.

Few people in Europe/Asia/Africa aspire to actually visit Dallas, Atlanta or Charlotte. I am not knocking those cities, just stating a fact.

How about the impact of slot restrictions on the European side? DL serves a number of routes into the Caribbean and Central America, if we get past the USA visa issues, any loyal travellers say heading to Europe has two choices, ATL or NYC, now does DL have all the slots available say to LHR to offer the number of frequencies needed to service both ATL and JFK?
 
FSDan
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):
Some flights like ATL-CPH/SVO/TLV will be back once the economy picks back up.

I don't think ATL-CPH will come back. I doubt there is much of a business market there.

I could see ATL-SVO returning eventually, as it would link the growing Russian economy with the growing economy of the American South. Also, it would be great for Russians going to Texas and Florida.
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vadheim
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 1:54 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15):
IMO once the economy comes back JFK-MUC will happen on Delta. Its a huge hole in the JFK network. Also think OSL and LIS will happen with 57s at some point.

I do not believe in another OSL - NYC operator.
We already have SK (A333) and UA (B752) operating daily out of OSL to EWR and that is enough at the moment I think. DY (B787) is also rumoured to start OSL - JFK next year when the new aircrafts arrive.

I would like to see ORD or possibly a southern US destination IAH/ATL from here  

I think it would work as Houston is the largest single business community outside Norway because of oil/gas related business (around 7.000 - 10.000 people to be correct).
 
jfk777
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 24):
I could see ATL-SVO returning eventually, as it would link the growing Russian economy with the growing economy of the American South. Also, it would be great for Russians going to Texas and Florida.

Lots of russians going to Miami and orlando but to Texas ? Russians and 10 galoon hats just don't seem to go toegther but then Texas does have oil, like Russia.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
When you run JFK-Europe, the flight stands on its own with some feed.

Huge myth. Many JFK-Europe flights on AA and DL rely on more than 50% feed from other cities on the NYC-end.

It's flights from California and Florida that rely on the least amount of feed.

If I'm not mistaken, the real issue is that while many JFK flights rely on significant feed, there are a number that wouldn't/couldn't exist sans the O&D component. For instance:

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 22):
Yep! NCE and VCE come to mind, especially premium cabin revenue pax.

I can't speak to those two, but from what I understand from these forums, there are numerous int'l routes where the JFK O&D traffic is a necessity to make it viable. Even if O&D is only say 45% of the plane, it would be a no-go for many if all there was was that 55% feed plus limited local O&D.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 24):
Also, it would be great for Russians going to Texas and Florida.

Russians going to Texas have Singapore Airlines; Miami has Transaero and, as of October, Aeroflot.

One might even hypothseize that the growing non-stop number of non-stop links between California, Florida and Texas and Europe - all critical in feeding Atlanta-Europe flights, is in fact really hurting Atlanta-Europe service, with markets like Moscow, Milan, Copenhagen and Stockholm gone.
a.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):

One might even hypothseize that the growing non-stop number of non-stop links between California, Florida and Texas and Europe - all critical in feeding Atlanta-Europe flights, is in fact really hurting Atlanta-Europe service, with markets like Moscow, Milan, Copenhagen and Stockholm gone.

MXP is only seasonal and is more due to the lovely economy in Italy. Like JFK-FCO.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 24):
I don't think ATL-CPH will come back. I doubt there is much of a business market there.

I think it will be back as a summer seasonal flight. JMO

Quoting FSDan (Reply 24):

I could see ATL-SVO returning eventually, as it would link the growing Russian economy with the growing economy of the American South. Also, it would be great for Russians going to Texas and Florida.

plus the SkyTeam hub on the other end.
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MAH4546
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 29):
Quoting FSDan (Reply 24):
I don't think ATL-CPH will come back. I doubt there is much of a business market there.

I think it will be back as a summer seasonal flight. JMO

This market thrives in the winter, not the summer - it's all Florida connections.
a.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 26):
Lots of russians going to Miami and orlando but to Texas ? Russians and 10 galoon hats just don't seem to go toegther but then Texas does have oil, like Russia.

More like astronauts going from Houston to Russia for launch...
 
MAH4546
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 31):

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 26):
Lots of russians going to Miami and orlando but to Texas ? Russians and 10 galoon hats just don't seem to go toegther but then Texas does have oil, like Russia.

More like astronauts going from Houston to Russia for launch...

There is a lot of oil traffic between Houston and Russia.
a.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 7:42 pm

Do you all think OTP will ever return from JFK? Now with MALEV gone, RO doing well, is there a remote posibility? From JFK I mean.
 
B747forever
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 7:44 pm

Isnt DL reducing their JFK-CPH? Makes ATL-CPH even less likely.
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 7:58 pm

There is a surprisingly fast-growing Russian (and Ukrainian) population in the Houston metro. While not a cummunity the size of SFO, NYC, MIA yet it is growing very, very quickly. The Russian consul general just gave a speech on it in fact and one sees it , especially in the West U area.
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bobnwa
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Wed May 09, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 26):
Russians and 10 galoon hats just don't seem to go toegther but then Texas does have oil, like Russia.

That would come as a surprise to the quite sizable oil industry in Texas.
 
blue100
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RE: Delta's ATL And JFK Transatlantic Ops

Thu May 10, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 19):
You therefore have to look at where the demand is coming from (up North, particularly NYC) and where in the US the demand is going, such as JFK/LAX/MIA, all of which may comfortably be served via JFK/AMS/CDG.

Although I don't necessarily see demand for additional TLV flights year round, I could see DL increasing frequencies from JFK during the summer peak season. As for connecting through Europe, CDG has relatively convenient connection times in both directions. However, AMS is far from being a comfortable connecting point on DL/KL to TLV. I believe that KL has only one flight to TLV that leaves at night, which then requires travelers to spend half a day in AMS. Not a very competitive schedule for passengers who can travel on LY, UA, DL, BA, LX, LH etc...

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