User avatar
zippyjet
Topic Author
Posts: 5091
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 2:04 am

Is it my imagination or, is CLT experiencing a higher number of ATC and other delays these past few years? CLT seems to be trying to make a run for massive delays and pain in the butt factor the way the evil three NYC area airports, BOS, MCO and FLL create/endure. For example, ATL will be fine but CLT is a major delay. We get all the US passengers that would mis-connect due to the delays in CLT. Any and all theories/answers/explanations are welcome.

I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
USAirALB
Posts: 1670
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 2:33 am

I don't know how this year will be, but last year, delays were frequent because of the following:

1. Airport Construction (No runway work like last summer, so it should be a little better)

2. CLT's notorious afternoon severe thunderstorms (Fact of life in the Southeast, it has been storming today since around 7pm)

3. US addition of flights (Not a bad thing, the airport just wasn't designed to handle the traffic that CLT receives)
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4633
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 2:40 am

Fewer runways to work with, and ever increasing number of flights US is pushing through existing banks causes a lot of delays.
 
dsuairptman
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:45 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 1):
2. CLT's notorious afternoon severe thunderstorms (Fact of life in the Southeast, it has been storming today since around 7pm)

This was the big winner for today's delay and deversion poloza feast at CLT.
GEAUX SAINTS!
 
silentbob
Posts: 1541
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 6:56 am

The last couple years have also had significantly less rain than average in the southern US. Even getting back up to the normal levels would entail added weather delays.
 
usairways85
Posts: 3603
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 12:39 pm

Fact of the matter is that in the past 5 years US has added an average of 150 flts a day. While that is good for CLT, it is only a matter of time that an increase in flights turns into an increase in delays.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 4073
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 12:53 pm

CLT is a mess with frequent ground delays of up to 15 mins for spacing.

Never really understood it because on a whole, the airport is not that busy, and the airspace is not that busy.

That said, US has a terrible Bank-Gap-Bank-Gap setup.

In between banks, you could literally march a parade at a slow crawl up the runways. At the bank, the place might as well be tiny, crowded LGA.

Further complicating things is the bad ramp setup, which from a pilot perspective, is downright dangerous.

-Tiny area, with dual taxiway lines swinging around corners of the concourses
-Taxiway lines veer off into alleyways with little warning
-Hard stand areas in the middle of this on the west side
-"Alleyway" setup which causes delays to/from gates
-Pilots that go through the area at very fast taxi speed
-Regional area deposits aircraft right into departure queue for 18L causing massive traffic jams during bank


I have said it before and I will say it again, one day there will be a collision on that ramp...it is that dangerous.


So when you put that all together, that probably adds to the delay situations.
 
User avatar
GSPFlyer
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:15 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 1:08 pm

Last night it was Thunderstorms. ATL has the same problems during the Summer, it's just something that happens in the southeast. The storms in ATL or CLT don't spread out too far, and nearby airports like GSP have good enough weather to stay open and take diversions. During the Summer, I would say GSP gets at least 1 diversion each week from ATL, so I get to see some interesting aircraft. Last night we had 2X E170, 2X CR9, 2X A320, an A321 and a 734 (All US) that all stayed until CLT opened.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2356
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):

Seems to me CLT needs to be properly slot controlled.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 7:06 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):
Never really understood it because on a whole, the airport is not that busy, and the airspace is not that busy.

Its the 6th busiest airport in the world.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...tte-douglas-now-sixth-busiest.html
FLYi
 
BC77008
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:48 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 9):
Its the 6th busiest airport in the world.

That is in aircraft movements, not passengers carried, which would make it the 25th busiest airport. But even with the article you posted it stated there are about 670 total daily departures so I'm thinking a sizable portion of CLT's traffic is non-passenger cargo.

It states there were 539,842 aircraft movements last year. If I take 670 daily flights and multiply it by 2 (to account for one take off and one landing per flight) I get 1340. Multiply that by 365 I get 489,100, so what are the other 50,742 flights?
"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11644
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Seems to me CLT needs to be properly slot controlled.

How many slots per hour is "proper?"
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 10):

That is in aircraft movements, not passengers carried,

Yes; the topic is about aircraft delays.

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 10):
what are the other 50,742 flights?

General aviation, corporate aviation, military

[Edited 2012-05-09 12:22:04]
FLYi
 
usairways85
Posts: 3603
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 10):
It states there were 539,842 aircraft movements last year. If I take 670 daily flights and multiply it by 2 (to account for one take off and one landing per flight) I get 1340. Multiply that by 365 I get 489,100, so what are the other 50,742 flights?

Also the 670 is an average at a given point in time. It may fluctuate throughout the year depending on the season.

Also don't forget other carriers fly into CLT other than just US.
 
BC77008
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:48 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 12):
Yes; the topic is about aircraft delays

you're right... ooops!

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 13):
Also don't forget other carriers fly into CLT other than just US.

You're right. It said approximately 600 flights for US and 70 on other carriers.
"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
 
usairways85
Posts: 3603
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 14):
You're right. It said approximately 600 flights for US and 70 on other carriers.

Oh Ok, well that actually gets back to my point that it fluctuates a bit. The US Fact Sheet for April has CLT at 631 flts.
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Topic Author
Posts: 5091
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 9:17 pm

Believe it or not US crew members affectionately refer to CLT as Hillbilly Philly! US seems to have lousy hubs/focus cities for on time performance.
CLT, LGA, DCA, BOS. We, BWI are considered the Southeast (at least northern tier) and we get afternoon and evening thunderstorms most of the year. It seems, ATL recovers faster than CLT, BOS and the evil three NYC airports.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
will777
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:21 am

RE: CLT Delays

Wed May 09, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 16):
US seems to have lousy hubs/focus cities for on time performance.

Hasn't US been ranked 1st in on-time performance for the past couple of years?
 
southwest737500
Posts: 611
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:49 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 12:07 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 8):
Quoting usairways85 (Reply 5):

No worrys, once they wipe out runnway 23, they will use it as a taxi way and create another runway in between 18c and 18r and then next to runnway 18l they will build another runnway
Next flight: TUL-ATL-CLT CRJ900 and MD88
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4633
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting will777 (Reply 17):
Hasn't US been ranked 1st in on-time performance for the past couple of years?

Maybe of the majors, not overall. I think AS and HA regularly take top honors. PHX helps, I'm sure.
 
bahadir
Posts: 1295
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 3:52 am

They also need to cancel the noise abatement BS where they are only allowed to use 5-23 in the mornings.. I have taken off many mornings from NC/SC/GA/VA airports to find long vectors, ground stops, etc. etc. just because of this.
Earthbound misfit I
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11644
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 20):
They also need to cancel the noise abatement BS where they are only allowed to use 5-23 in the mornings.. I have taken off many mornings from NC/SC/GA/VA airports to find long vectors, ground stops, etc. etc. just because of this.

When did that change? 36L (now 36C) used to be the preferred noise abatement runway.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 16):
US seems to have lousy hubs/focus cities for on time performance. CLT, LGA, DCA, BOS.

What's wrong with DCA's on time performance? I'd note, too, that in the winter, CLT's on-time performance is very good - CLT was at 89.66 percent in February, 2012, better than all other legacy hubs and better than every major hub save BWI (incidentally, the 6 worst major hubs in February, 2012 were all UA hubs).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2356
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
How many slots per hour is "proper?"

Landing on two parallels, be it facing north or south, the AAR for CLT is anywhere from 64 to 73 in VMC. In IMC, it drops down to 60-68 arrivals an hour.

That's a good place to start.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11644
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 22):
Landing on two parallels, be it facing north or south, the AAR for CLT is anywhere from 64 to 73 in VMC. In IMC, it drops down to 60-68 arrivals an hour.

And what's the maximum number of scheduled operations per hour?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
usairways85
Posts: 3603
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 1:24 pm

I have only flown in/out of CLT a handful of times but I would caution that the truth is not always in the numbers. An ontime departure is when the aircraft pushes back ontime, that does not take into account waiting to depart for 20 minutes. This is why US builds quite a buffer into flying times. EWR-PHL blocked at almost an hour though it averages 25 minutes of flying time. Also I forget what consitutues an arrival but if it's wheels down it does not account for taxi time and ramp delays due alleyway congestion or an aircraft still at the gate of arrival.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 4073
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 2:11 pm

"Its the 6th busiest airport in the world."

By your measure, DAB is also one of the busiest airports in the world haha
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11644
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 25):
By your measure,

Which measure? He's not talking movements.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
silentbob
Posts: 1541
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 3:47 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 24):
Also I forget what consitutues an arrival but if it's wheels down it does not account for taxi time and ramp delays due alleyway congestion or an aircraft still at the gate of arrival.

Arrival on the gate constitutes an "arrival", so those issues are considered.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 24):
An ontime departure is when the aircraft pushes back ontime, that does not take into account waiting to depart for 20 minutes.

It shouldn't, you've already departed the gate. That's why it is called "departure" time and not "takeoff" time.

Block times reflect how long it usually takes to complete a flight. If they simply reflected flight times, someone would then complain that a direct routing would be even shorter and the airlines were somehow at fault or "padding" those numbers.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2356
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
And what's the maximum number of scheduled operations per hour?

During peak hours, it's pretty obvious it's more than 60-65 per hour. Hence the problem.

670 arrivals/day divided by 18 hours gives you 37 movements/hour. Now i'm not saying spread the movements evenly for those 18 hours, but make it so that even at rush hours, the movements dont exceed 55-60, especially in IMC or stormy days.

It can be done.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11644
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 28):
During peak hours, it's pretty obvious it's more than 60-65 per hour. Hence the problem.

It's not obvious. If weather closes the airfield, no number of slots, no matter how small, eliminates delays and diversions.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2356
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 29):
It's not obvious. If weather closes the airfield, no number of slots, no matter how small, eliminates delays and diversions.

no one is talking about eliminating delays. I'm merely suggesting a way to operate the airport that would be better than the current way it is done.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11644
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Thu May 10, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 30):
I'm merely suggesting a way to operate the airport that would be better than the current way it is done.

How do we know that it's better? It's obvious that in the winter, the airport doesn't need slots.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: CLT Delays

Fri May 11, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
When did that change? 36L (now 36C) used to be the preferred noise abatement runway.

It was that way when I started Piedmont in '04. Turboprops were permitted to use 18R / 36L but turbojet traffic was all 5/23 unless operational necessity dictates otherwise.
 
dumbell2424
Posts: 884
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:45 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Fri May 11, 2012 5:25 pm

Related, here's a good article summarizing CLT's future plans

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...llion-on-future.html#storylink=cpy

One interesting notion is to build a 4th parallel, demolish the cross 5/23, and replace B and C, with one single concourse extending all the way down with 50 gates and people mover.

[Edited 2012-05-11 10:26:55]
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11644
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: CLT Delays

Fri May 11, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 32):
It was that way when I started Piedmont in '04. Turboprops were permitted to use 18R / 36L but turbojet traffic was all 5/23 unless operational necessity dictates otherwise.

That's interesting. Between 2005 and 2007, I landed 36L late at night numerous times.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos