EK156
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Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Wed May 09, 2012 7:11 pm

Emirates is going to present an independent study conducted by non-profit German Aerospace Centre DLR to German politicians in an effort to convince them to allow them entry into Berlin & Stuttgart!!

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/emira...r-german-landing-slots-457292.html

Emirates is now getting restless and will no longer play nice! With all the data they compiled from flying into their 4 other German destinations, they will produce this data to prove that Lufthansa would actually benefit from their business and not the other way around!!!

What say you?
 
cv990Coronado
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Wed May 09, 2012 8:40 pm

I have never seen Turkey's voting for Christmas  

One can get studies to confirm whatever you want especially if you have deep pockets but I doubt Lufthansa would agree. It might very well be true that Germany industry and German consumers would probably benefit. But, Lufthansa I just can't see it
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TheSonntag
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Wed May 09, 2012 8:41 pm

I tend to say BER has other problems right now  
 
OlympicATH
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Wed May 09, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting EK156 (Thread starter):
Emirates is now getting restless and will no longer play nice!

What can they do exactly? If they're not given the rights, all they can do is keep asking. I'm not saying Germany is right, just that there isn't much Emirates can do really. Plus, you can interpret data in many ways.

BTW, SGT is Stuttgart, Arkansas (USA). You meant STR.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Thu May 10, 2012 4:24 am

I agree with the concept that EK is providing the means to open Germany to the East.
But what is the chance of this going through as Europe panics over various possible defaults?

Unfortunately for EK, this is the wrong political environment for this sort of argument.

And what is the disadvantage for Germany to have AB fly pax to AUH?!? Unfortunately, the noted text:"he research, which Emirates will present to politicians in Berlin, also says Emirates would compete more with rival Gulf airline Etihad than with Lufthansa were it allowed to fly into and out of Berlin and Stuttgart."

That above quote notes that another German based company wouldn't be at an advantage.

While I personally think Germany should open the bilateral (a little, but gain logistical support from Dubai), I'm not seeing a compelling argument. Since the 738 is able to reach AUH... the base needs seem to be met. (Yes, DXB is a far more connected hub... But that argument wasn't presented.)

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 1):
I have never seen Turkey's voting for Christmas

   Here in the USA, isn't that Turkey's voting for Thanksgiving?  
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 2):
I tend to say BER has other problems right now

I think, if EK had rights, that they would wait patiently.

Quoting OlympicATH (Reply 3):
just that there isn't much Emirates can do really.

I would love to read all the provisions of the Dubai/Germany bilateral. Are there limits on tonnage on some items as I've been told on the Dubai/India bilateral? (e.g., chemicals, pharma). Dubai is the mid-east logistics hub. If Germany hits a 'cap' on some transshipped item, the Dubai could do something. Otherwise... nothing.

Quoting OlympicATH (Reply 3):
BTW, SGT is Stuttgart, Arkansas (USA). You meant STR.

Emirates wants to fly to SGT?!?  

Nothing wrong with this as PR, it is free press for the flights from the current German airports.   


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
PanHAM
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Thu May 10, 2012 5:35 am

Here we go again...................

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 1):
One can get studies to confirm whatever you want especially if you have deep pockets but
I doubt Lufthansa would

I was going to say that as well. Or, if you order a study that scientifically proves that the sun rises oin the west, you will get that done as well, no problem.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
I would love to read all the provisions of the Dubai/Germany bilateral. Are there limits on tonnage on some items as I've been told on the Dubai/India bilateral? (e.g., chemicals, pharma). Dubai is the mid-east logistics hub. If Germany hits
EK can fly daily (one flight) to seven German destinations, or, as much as they like with equipment they like to 4 German destinations.

Ain't that enough? I'd say yes. After all, right now they have 3 flights each to FRA and MUC and 2 flights each to DUS and HAM. Makes 10 and approximately 4000 + seats daily each way.

If they wany, they can put A380 on each service. The German infrastructure is excellent, passengers from STR can reach FRA in 70 minutes by hogh speed rail. Many gateways across the world have longer travel times to the city airports. BER to HAM is 90 minutes.

What does EK want? Daily each hour on the hour from the four destinaitons,? They can do it.

Cargo - comes in addition, Not sure if they still fly to HHN but that makes it destinaiton # 5, OK freight only.


What would come next? NUE and HAJ? CGN? They have more than their share already and room to expand.

[Edited 2012-05-09 23:08:39]
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something
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Thu May 10, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting EK156 (Thread starter):
Emirates is now getting restless and will no longer play nice!

EK is asking Germany a favor that Germany can at its very own discretion grant or reject them. I can't speak for all cultures, but being an obnoxious prick does usually not get you anything in these parts.

Here is the original document
http://www.emirates.com/de/german/images/DE_180412_tcm253-857585.pdf

I want to read it first before commenting on it, but going by what I've gleaned from a cursory reading of the conclusion this ''study'' appears to be ripe with inaccuracies and flawed conclusion, eg it argues that passenger numbers into Germany grew which is an indication that EK stimulated growth. How cheap would EK have to be for people to visit Germany, that without the presence of EK wouldn't have? But I want to finish reading through the entire of it first.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
airceo
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Thu May 10, 2012 2:15 pm

EK conducted a similar exercise here in Canada with a piece created by InterVistas Consulting about two years ago. http://airceo.com/2010/02/emirates-fights-for-canada-chapter-2/
As has been documented here and elsewhere it didn't really get them very far in Canada. My guess is that a further study or document produced by a third party detailing possibilities for Canada can't be too far away. Two years is a long time for PR silence.

With regards to Germany, I think EK may be out of luck. As others have said, tough economic times in the EU will likely close most minds further to the idea of giving more access to a non-EU carrier. Compound this with the fact that in theory EK could fly to either desired airport tomorrow by "simply" adjusting their frequencies elsewhere in Germany. There's also a balancing act to consider. Countries watch one another and use what they see as evidence for or against aping policy. If EK are successful in getting access to Stuttgart and Berlin and even one German airline goes belly up as a "consequence" you can bet your bottom dollar that politicians the world over will start putting fences up in preparation for future EK lobbying. A popular, but not totally fair/accurate, belief is that EK alone is responsible for the downfall of QF in Australia. This is cited time and again by EK detractors here. For the record I don't count myself in the the ranks of those detractors, I'm just very skeptical of anything that has its genesis at a PR person's desk.  

On a side note, I noticed that an older piece on EK and Germany on their website bears the title "Tearing down the other wall." I'm curious to know what our German members think about this? I would say it is in poor taste... at best.

airceo
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PanHAM
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Thu May 10, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting airceo (Reply 7):
I would say it is in poor taste... at best.

I agree with you it is bad taste. If all people would still hold up the values they would realize that, here, an airline based in a feudalist country compares a democratic elected govermnent with a dictatorship regime. All that to gain more access on top of the generous access they have already to Germany. In comparison to that faux pas, MOL has good manners.

Now, why should Germany even talk to the UAE over additional flight frequencies? As said before, EK has 10 to 4 destinations which they can increase, both by frequencies and by aircraft size as well. Etihad has additonal righs plus they bought part of AB, even Ras al Khaima flies to FRA.

Next, traffic rights to third countries will sooner or later fall to BRU anyhow and will be negotiated by the EU commissar.

What else, EK, better the DLR study, mentiones the A380 and 330 they buy from Airbus and without checking deeper into that, this will certainly make up a good portion of the 18000 jobs they mention. But, pardon me, first of all, Airbus is a European project and cannot be fully attributed to Germany alone and why should all 93 A380s be put on the scale when only - say five or so - will be used for flights to Germany?

Another point, EK gets export financing for the aircraft they buy in Europe. LH and AF/KL as well as all others don't, it's not an export. That's not all, we have tax shelters where purposely founded tax write off corporations buy an A380 and sell it to rich Germans staring at shares of € 100K a piece. This company then leases the A380 to EK. Talking about cheap financing with the addtional benefit to EK, if something happens in that country and they cannot pay the leases anymore, they just walk away. Try to sue the Dubai government or any company they own. Vice versa, foreign creditors enjoy full legal protection in Germany, they can sue the government if they have a case. . .

I hope they paid DLR good money for the study, because that unit is subsidized by us taxpayers as well.
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ElPistolero
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Thu May 10, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was always under the assumption that EKs liberal rights in Germany stem from LHs support for a liberal agreement with the UAE prior to EK emerging as a threat.

It is a claim I have seen elsewhere and even repeated myself without anyone correcting me. How old is the current agreement? Has the agreemebt always been this liberal?
 
PanHAM
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Thu May 10, 2012 3:34 pm

There is already an air agreement in place between the EU and the UAE. The UAE/Germany bi-lateral is part of that agreement and mentioned as an attachment. the dates shown are March 2, 1994, with amendments June 15,1998 and June 15,2000.

I think LH had cargo rights in mind and at times SHJ was a most important cargo hib for LH, second after FRA-.. However, that is for transit / hub operations only. Not much origin freight coming out of the UAE, except ocean/air trans-shipments and these are not UAE originating either.
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airmale
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Thu May 10, 2012 4:42 pm

It's not like Stuttgart is on a remote island.....lol. EK flies to many airports near STR, (Frankfurt, Zurich come to mind)..... I doubt that there is that much traffic ex-STR to Dubai and beyond. QR tried 3weekly A319 nonstop to Doha and it didn't work (now those flights are via ZRH).......
.....up there with the best!
 
Wsp
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RE: Emirates Present German Study To Access BER & SGT

Thu May 10, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting EK156 (Thread starter):
by non-profit German Aerospace Centre DLR

This is a misleading description of DLR in the original article. This describes it a bit better:

Quote:
DLR is Germany's national research center for aeronautics and space. Its extensive research and development work in aeronautics, space, transportation, energy, defence and security research is integrated into national and international cooperative ventures. As Germany's Space Agency, the German federal government has given DLR responsibility for the forward planning and implementation of the German space programme as well as international representation of Germany's interests.

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 1):
One can get studies to confirm whatever you want especially if you have deep pockets

The particular DLR institute that wrote this report is also responsible for issuing the official statistics on German commercial aviation. Since in your eyes their report is useless, do you have any suggestion on who you would trust to deliver a less biased opinion?

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