SWALUV
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Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 12:28 am

After looking at this one article: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united-air-cfo-sees-value-000026155.html
And with all the rumors going around, Will United Become an All Boeing Airline? Besides the order for the A350, United doesn't have any other Airbus aircraft on order and with there aging A320/19 fleet will we see UA become what AA was?
 
catiii
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 12:33 am

Quoting SWALUV (Thread starter):
Besides the order for the A350, United doesn't have any other Airbus aircraft on order and with there aging A320/19 fleet

The 350s will have low cycles, and will be in the fleet a long, long time (if the current philosophy holds). So they won't be an all Boeing airline.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 12:53 am

Dump the A319/20 and fly the 737. How many years off is the A350 order? They could follow others and cancel that order.
 
SEPilot
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 2):
Dump the A319/20 and fly the 737. How many years off is the A350 order? They could follow others and cancel that order.

I suspect this will only happen if Airbus stumbles badly and gives them an excuse. Otherwise it will cost them penalties and I don't think they want that. Having an all-Boeing fleet is worth something but not that much. Besides, what would they buy instead? They will need planes before the 777x will be ready, from what I understand. And the 748 is too big for what they want.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
737tdi
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 3):
I suspect this will only happen if Airbus stumbles badly and gives them an excuse. Otherwise it will cost them penalties and I don't think they want that. Having an all-Boeing fleet is worth something but not that much. Besides, what would they buy instead? They will need planes before the 777x will be ready, from what I understand. And the 748 is too big for what they want.




I have to disagree. Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal. Keep in mind all manufacturers use different techniques and ideologies. It is much easier for a mechanic to learn only one. The differences in the 727,737 and 747 are minimal when it comes to the way the aircraft is built. The same for Airbus. I love only having to remember Boeing. I was McD before this and it was the same way, if you knew the DC8 then you were on track with the 9 and 10. Maintenance of aircraft is huge and keeping the mech. in the loop is also huge. We can work on anything but when it comes to troubleshooting it is nice to keep it in the same family.
 
catiii
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
I have to disagree. Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal.

It's not that big a deal at DL, for example. I think it used to be that exclusive arrangements had some cache to them (i.e. DL and AA before the consolidation era), but at the scales they're dealing with now having the option to plug-and-play the 319, for example, over the 738 to right-size capacity is an attractive option.
 
AngMoh
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
I have to disagree. Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal.

It is a huge deal in a very negative way because you lose all negotiation leverages and end up paying huge amounts more for your fleet.

Norwegian stated that they ordered both the NEO and the MAX because that way they were able to squeeze down both suppliers to the max and if they ordered only one of the 2 types they would have paid a lot more for their fleet.

Buying A or B because "we prefer them" happens only on A.net. That does not mean that existing relationships don't matter (the incumbent has large advantages) but no airline is going to shoot themselves in the foot just because they like A or B more than the other one.
 
737tdi
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
I have to disagree. Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal.

It's not that big a deal at DL, for example. I think it used to be that exclusive arrangements had some cache to them (i.e. DL and AA before the consolidation era), but at the scales they're dealing with now having the option to plug-and-play the 319, for example, over the 738 to right-size capacity is an attractive option.




I don't think you understand what I was saying. It is much easier to maintain aircraft if they are from the same stable. There are mechs. that know Fords, some who know Chevy's and some who know Edsel's (they are unemployed). See what I am saying? It is much more efficient when your mechs only have to learn a couple of aircraft. That way a problem is probably known and the gate call/repair can effect an on time departure. Trust me here, I have worked on alot of different manuf. aircraft and they all have different philosophies about how to build an aircraft.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 2:18 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 7):
Trust me here, I have worked on alot of different manuf. aircraft and they all have different philosophies about how to build an aircraft.

No one is saying otherwise. But in the big picture, you are wrong. Service agreements, power-by-hour frameworks, third-party maintenance providers, etc are greatly diminishing the historical inefficiency of operating mixed fleet types. Aircraft are becoming commodities and airlines will order whoever offers the better price, financing, delivery slots, T's & C's, etc on the particular day they sign the purchase order.

It's not what diehard A vs B fanboys want to hear, but it will be increasingly hard for Airbus and Boeing to win orders that lock down an airline for an aircraft's lifecycle.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 6):
Buying A or B because "we prefer them" happens only on A.net.

On the contrary, it absolutely happens. You don't think WN has a preference for the 737?

I am willing to concede - in fact, I'm suggesting - that this will become a less common practice in the future.

[Edited 2012-05-09 19:20:38]
 
catiii
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 7):
It is much more efficient when your mechs only have to learn a couple of aircraft.

In your world yes but I think, in addition to the points made in other posts, you lose those efficiencies across the network by trading that simplicity for the flexibility to right size your capacity for demand.
 
AngMoh
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 8):
On the contrary, it absolutely happens. You don't think WN has a preference for the 737?

I am willing to concede - in fact, I'm suggesting - that this will become a less common practice in the future.

Yes, WN has a strong preference for the 737 but that is because it best fits their business need, not because they only buy B and not A. You can bet that A was pushing the NEO hard on WN and WN took that offer and went to B to get a much better price on the MAX (or even better, they took that to get B to commit to the MAX in the first place...)
 
tpaewr
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:13 am

It is too early to be dogmatic, but it will greatly hinge on the how the 350 turns out. If the 350 progresses well, and is at a killer price then it would be foolish to not take it.


But if it runs into the problems typically of new A/C at the same time the PM CO 787-8 and 787-9 are rolling in, it makes things much tougher for AB.


Besides, we all know UA is more PMCO than PMUA, and we all know what sorta fleet CO runs


United Continental Holdings Inc (UAL) said on Tuesday..............................

CFO John Rainey declined to comment on the upcoming deal, saying the company always talks to both manufacturers before placing an order. But he said there are clear benefits from a fleet composed primarily of planes from one maker.



He'd look rather foolish saying that then placing a split order dontcha think?


"
 
stlAV8R
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 6):
It is a huge deal in a very negative way because you lose all negotiation leverages and end up paying huge amounts more for your fleet.

Norwegian stated that they ordered both the NEO and the MAX because that way they were able to squeeze down both suppliers to the max and if they ordered only one of the 2 types they would have paid a lot more for their fleet.

Buying A or B because "we prefer them" happens only on A.net. That does not mean that existing relationships don't matter (the incumbent has large advantages) but no airline is going to shoot themselves in the foot just because they like A or B more than the other one.

With the competition the way it is these days between Airbus and Boeing, and ATR and Bombardier and Embraer for that matter, ordering one brand over another won't drive up your costs. In fact, and I can't say for sure, but I would be inclined to believe that it would save the operator more money, as from what I read in the press it seems that the manufacturers are willing to pretty much give them away (so to speak) just to get exclusivity. I would bet that they consider the money made from selling parts as a way to make up for the lost initial revenue so I think if I were a manufacturer, that I would rather sell you the initial product cheaper knowing (and that is this is the case) that you will have to continue to return to me for parts rather than you spending that money with another manufacturer cause that is going to help float my business. Now, if I know you are going to split your order, then I am probably going to charge you more because I am going to win your business anyway and have to reason to persuade you as greatly via discounts.

Also, consider what negotiations that I can make with the suppliers if I can guarantee them more business. I can manufacturer my product cheaper therefore sell it cheaper and still rake in profits.
 
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rotating14
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 4:03 am

I think either having an all Boeing or Airbus fleet has it pros and cons. Swiss, all Airbus and no complaints. WN all Boeing operator with no issues. Each operators business model is different for the missions they use the machinery. This is only a topic because of the merger.

My personal opinion is that UA will use the 737 and the Airbus A320/19 on most domestic missions along with the 767 and 777 depending on the capacity demand. Internationally it would be the 747, 777 and the 757 for the trans Atlantic routes. I think they will eventually cancel the order for A350's and go with what they have (777, 767-300/400) until the 777x is defined. I personally don't think the 350 will be ready in time and if Jeff and company can wait for the 777x (which I think they will) they won't have buyers remorse knowing the 777x could've been a better machine in the long run. But what do I know, I just watch planes land and take off from time to time.

Based on what A is claiming the 359-9 is capable of it should be an awesome plane and.I'm more that sure it will sell well as it has. But the same factor why ethiad cancelled their last 7 frames could be the same reason(s) why they do as well. The x factor is when can they put it all together in time to save the current backlog. With 787's flying around, it seems like the pressure to make the whole A350 program come together is compounded.
 
737tdi
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 5:29 am

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 8):
No one is saying otherwise. But in the big picture, you are wrong. Service agreements, power-by-hour frameworks




Sir, I have worked for the companies you speak of. Dalfort Aviation and Dee Howard Aircraft Services. I was just pointing out that experience is the best. If you only work on one type of aircraft you get to know it intimately. Let Delta and AA and AS and NWA fly what they want. We fly one aircraft, the 737, don't like it or like it this is what we fly. I can troubleshoot a problem very quickly on it and have the aircraft back in service fairly quickly. Let's see the other guys do it.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 2):
They could follow others and cancel that order.

But they won't. UA will take delivery of their A350s, and likely commence retirement of their 744s at that time. This is what UA has said on a few occasions, and has nothing to do with more recent or even future orders.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal.

I guess... But it also creates a fair bit of trouble too.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):
It is much easier for a mechanic to learn only one.

I never had trouble keeping up, gate call or RON work. I have my preferences, but when I was doing that for a living, I wasn't hampered by troubleshooting an Airbus one hour and an Embraer the next.
You Sir, are a very funny lady.
 
asteriskceo
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 11:06 am

Can someone explain to me why having a mix of A & B in their fleet is a bad thing? With national pride aside, I feel like a tailored-mix is a healthy thing.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 12:03 pm

I think UA may be watching with interest what Airbus does with the A350-1000. If the A3510 does actually live up to its promises, then UA may consider buying 15-20 A3510's to replace the 747-400's on transpacific routes.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 12:30 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):
If the A3510 does actually live up to its promises, then UA may consider buying 15-20 A3510's to replace the 747-400's on transpacific routes.

UA bought 25 A359s for that exact purpose. Why does this topic keep coming up? UA, pre or post merger, has never wavered from the stance that the A350s were 744 replacements. Until someone can show a quote from a senior UA exec that explicitly denies this, there isn't much of the dead horse left to beat...
 
aloges
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 16):
Can someone explain to me why having a mix of A & B in their fleet is a bad thing? With national pride aside, I feel like a tailored-mix is a healthy thing.

This is, after all, an internet forum. So yes, the "worst" thing about a mixed fleet is the NBH (Not Built Here) factor.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 1:42 pm

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 16):
Can someone explain to me why having a mix of A & B in their fleet is a bad thing? With national pride aside, I feel like a tailored-mix is a healthy thing.

Maintenance and fleet availability. If you standardize on one manufacturer (even better one type like WN), you can have more maintenance availability because the aircraft can be serviced easily at any of your maintenance facilities/technicians. If you say have one type of airplane for the domestic market (ex. 737), it can be much more easily replaced if needed on a one-on-one basis with another one that just landed per say or is idle. If the fleet is split, you might have an A320/319 avail but the seating is not the same thus is not as streamlined of a swap and then creates a ripple effect down the whole scheduling process (kind of like taking a can from the bottom of a neatlyt stacked can pyramind)...

I can see where he's coming from.
 
cruiseshipcrew
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 2:12 pm

I'm a huge Boeing fan, a stockholder etc but people need to stop saying United might cancel the A350 order. The CEO and other airline executives have been quoted several times saying how excited they are to get this airport that has a perfect spot in the new United. It's not going anywhere!
Road Warrior
 
catiii
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 14):
Let's see the other guys do it.

Respectfully, and with no knock on your experience, "the other guys" do it all the time at DL, UA, CO, B6, AF, LH, KE, SQ, et al.
 
qf002
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 13):
they won't have buyers remorse knowing the 777x could've been a better machine in the long run.

Instead, they could have buyers remorse if the A350 absolutely blows the 777X away... There's a decent chance of that happening, especially if Airbus were to create heavily upgraded versions a decade into the program (in the same way Boeing did the 777 to create the 77L and 77W). If those upgrades were on the same scale as the 77L/W upgrades, then the A350 would be an incredible aircraft, and one that any airline who cancelled their orders for would sorely regret missing out on...

My view is that the best compromise is to pick and chose what works best for the network/fleet from both sides. My personal view is that the 787/A350 combo is a strong future for UA to stick to...
 
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mayor
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 7):
and some who know Edsel's (they are unemployed).

Bad analogy.......Edsels were nothing more than Fords with different styling, just as Mercurys were.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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ER757
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 18):
UA bought 25 A359s for that exact purpose. Why does this topic keep coming up? UA, pre or post merger, has never wavered from the stance that the A350s were 744 replacements. Until someone can show a quote from a senior UA exec that explicitly denies this, there isn't much of the dead horse left to beat...
Quoting cruiseshipcrew (Reply 21):
I'm a huge Boeing fan, a stockholder etc but people need to stop saying United might cancel the A350 order. The CEO and other airline executives have been quoted several times saying how excited they are to get this airport that has a perfect spot in the new United. It's not going anywhere!

  
This is going to turn into "when will NW retire their DC-9's" or "why don't AF wash their planes" or the ever popular "Will AS merge with XX"
 
phxa340
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 13):
I personally don't think the 350 will be ready in time and if Jeff and company can wait for the 777x (which I think they will) they won't have buyers remorse knowing the 777x could've been a better machine in the long run.

You are saying that an aircraft that hasn't even been defined by Boeing is going to be a better plane than the A350 on what facts. Many respected members on this forum have even indicated the the 777X will burn more fuel than the A350 (Albeit haul more of a payload and fly further).

Smisek has consistantly said they are taking delivery - heck they even helped with some of the design of the aircraft. If an airline were to cancel orders due to manufacturer delays ... there will be hardly and new generation widebodies in service today. Lets be real , so no United will not be an all Boeing airline.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 26):
If an airline were to cancel orders due to manufacturer delays ... there will be hardly and new generation widebodies in service today.

  

UA still has 50 orders and 75 options for 787s...that aircraft wasn't delayed, right?  
 
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par13del
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 6):
It is a huge deal in a very negative way because you lose all negotiation leverages and end up paying huge amounts more for your fleet.

Well, someone needs to tell Airbus that they are wasting valuable time and resources attempting to ensure pilots can fly all the A32X a/c with one type certificate since it provides no value  
Quoting AngMoh (Reply 10):
Yes, WN has a strong preference for the 737 but that is because it best fits their business need,

So, carriers who want an all Airbus or Boeing fleet simply need to taylor their business needs to fit those a/c, are we discussing the chicken and the egg here?  
 
milesrich
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 7):
I don't think you understand what I was saying. It is much easier to maintain aircraft if they are from the same stable. There are mechs. that know Fords, some who know Chevy's and some who know Edsel's (they are unemployed). See what I am saying? It is much more efficient when your mechs only have to learn a couple of aircraft. That way a problem is probably known and the gate call/repair can effect an on time departure. Trust me here, I have worked on alot of different manuf. aircraft and they all have different philosophies about how to build an aircraft.

The Edsel was a Ford, or at least the 1958 Ranger and Pacer were, and the Citation & Corsair were more or less a Mercury, and in 1959 and 1960, Edsel only built and old Ford based cars. I understand what you are saying, that from a maintenance employee standpoint, mechanics who work on one Boeing product have a relatively easy time working on another, but your choice of example, well . . For the record, GM appealed to the mid price market (before compacts and intermediates when all cars were full sized) with Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Buick; Chrysler had Dodge, DeSoto, and Chrysler; but Ford only had Mercury. Had the Edsel come to the market in 1954, rather than 1957, the story might have been different.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 10):
Yes, WN has a strong preference for the 737 but that is because it best fits their business need, not because they only buy B and not A. You can bet that A was pushing the NEO hard on WN and WN took that offer and went to B to get a much better price on the MAX (or even better, they took that to get B to commit to the MAX in the first place...)

And let's not forget that they afford to be choosy when the performance numbers are relatively close. If the NEO's numbers blew the MAX out of the water and exceeded the price difference, WN would buy Airbus in a second. Obviously I'm presuming that said offer would be of such value that it would account for the fact that WN would be adding a fleet type, new mx work, etc. -- but it is possible with the right financial terms.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 6):
It is a huge deal in a very negative way because you lose all negotiation leverages and end up paying huge amounts more for your fleet.

Not really inreality. they will get substantial discounts regardless, probably better ones (like the days of the gentlemen's agreement) since Boeing will always have the interest to keep them ordering Boeing.

Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 26):
You are saying that an aircraft that hasn't even been defined by Boeing is going to be a better plane than the A350 on what facts. Many respected members on this forum have even indicated the the 777X will burn more fuel than the A350 (Albeit haul more of a payload and fly further).

Neither can folks in the other side of the isle say that the A350 will be better than the 777X if you use your argument. SFC makes very little difference if a business case can be made. The 777X will be an amazing plane, just like its predecessor. The A350 will have quite a few teething problems, probably more delays because of new materials, etc. Rolls Royce already said that the new engines they are developing for the 777X will is expected to be 2% more efficient than the ones they have on the A350, so I doubt that claims that the 777X will be any less fuel efficient to begin with.

"This morning, Rolls detailed its conceptual engine, which it has dubbed the RB3025, exclusively to FlightBlogger and Flightglobal, which it touts will achieve better than 10% improvement in fuel burn against today's GE90-115B engine that powers the 777-300ER, and 15% better than the 777-200ER's Trent 800.



Rated at 99,500lbs with a 337cm (132.5in) fan for the baseline 407-seat 777-9X, giving the RB3025 a bypass ratio of 12:1.

The engine-maker says the current concept provides a low specific thrust and "excellent" propulsive efficiency, along with a 62:1 overall pressure ratio, which, if achieved, would be the highest OPR achieved in a commercial turbofan engine.

The engine builds off of the Trent 1000 and XWB engines, but Nuttall says the RB3025 is derived around its Advanced3 environmentally friendly engine (EFE) technology development programme, which includes a Trent 1000-derived core, lean-burn combustor, composite fan and advanced materials in the high pressure elements of the core."

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...rolls-royce-pratt-whitney-set.html
 
phxa340
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 31):


Neither can folks in the other side of the isle say that the A350 will be better than the 777X if you use your argument.

Agreed , so lets wait and see how the 350s perform accordingly and what Boeing actually proposes re 777x. Its just tiring to see how a "What is your favorite pie" thread turn into another is United going to cancel the 350.

With that being said , I am still confident UA hasn't filled all of its needs with the 787s and 350s so I am hoping to see an order for some 77Ws or 748is to get them to 2020.
 
cbphoto
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 8:07 pm

Simply NO! Their have been strong rumors that United is looking at getting the E190s as well, and even if they don't, I suspect that their might very well be other contenders in the race for that size of a jet, besides Airbus! People have to stop looking at this as an Airbus vs Boeing thing!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 33):
Simply NO! Their have been strong rumors that United is looking at getting the E190s as well, and even if they don't, I suspect that their might very well be other contenders in the race for that size of a jet, besides Airbus! People have to stop looking at this as an Airbus vs Boeing thing!

According to what they've said, they are leaning towards single supplier/aircraft category. EMB190 cannot be considered equal to the 737 in no wasy shape or form, so I would say they are a whole another story, and not part of this discussion..
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 33):
Simply NO! Their have been strong rumors that United is looking at getting the E190s as well, and even if they don't, I suspect that their might very well be other contenders in the race for that size of a jet, besides Airbus! People have to stop looking at this as an Airbus vs Boeing thing!


Unless they can improve the interiors.

I've flown the US E190 on the DCA-BOS shuttle; the PHL-BOS shuttle, and the LGA-BOS shuttle.
A good fast-turn airframe -- seemingly made for the purpose.
But the bin-door hinges, the seat covers, and the wall panels don't seem to hold up very well.

Now . . . if UA could order E190s with better interior finishings, that would be different.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 34):
According to what they've said, they are leaning towards single supplier/aircraft category. EMB190 cannot be considered equal to the 737 in no wasy shape or form, so I would say they are a whole another story, and not part of this discussion..

This discussion is about whether UA will source all aircraft from one supplier, not about 737s, so I'd say it is relevant. Prior to the merger, UA was also reported to be looking heavily at the C-series, and with the pilots not appearing to budge much on scope for a CBA, I'd give a decent shot at a 90-100 seater being in the mainline UA fleet this decade.
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 36):
This discussion is about whether UA will source all aircraft from one supplier, not about 737s, so I'd say it is relevant. Prior to the merger, UA was also reported to be looking heavily at the C-series, and with the pilots not appearing to budge much on scope for a CBA, I'd give a decent shot at a 90-100 seater being in the mainline UA fleet this decade.

What I am saying is that UA's coments about single supplied I think are pointed to aircraft categories not necessarily the airline as a whole. They would be very limited especially for regional flying if all they ordered was Airbus or Boeing...
 
airbazar
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 6):
It is a huge deal in a very negative way because you lose all negotiation leverages and end up paying huge amounts more for your fleet.

Another issue, and we saw that with AA, is that no single manufacturer has the ability to supply the huge number of frames that a big airline needs. I don't believe UA will even be an all Boeing narrowbody airline, let alone an all Boeing airline.
The linked article indicates a purchase of 100 737's. UA currently has nearly 400 A320/737 aircraft plust 100+ 757's. There will be A320's in UA's fleet for many years to come, just like in DL's and AA's fleet.
 
AADC10
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 9:35 pm

I would not be surprised to see UA with an all Boeing domestic fleet but cancelling the A350 would be expensive and it would leave with nothing to replace the 772 and 744. I know all of the claims about the capacity of the 789 but it would be a squeeze to get it to the capacity of the 772 and it is distinctly smaller than the 744.

In long haul international, since they are operated by specialized fleets anyway, commonality is less important and UA is actually gaining some by reducing the widebody fleet from three types to two. Some of the statements about seating commonality are obviously b.s. since PMCO already operates different size 737s and are likely to continue to do so. UA is not going to turn into WN any time soon and even WN is increasing the number of 737 seating arrangements.

So, no it is highly unlikely that UA will be an all Boeing airline, at least within the next 30 years.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 10:12 pm

Whether UAL will BECOME an all Boeing airline in the future is Highly possible,, but for NOW?? NOPE! the last A320/A319's were delivered in 2000-2001. so I doubt they'll be gone before the A350-900 Arrives and the A350-1000 is "already" a MOOT point. Especially if a new 787 ot 777 is equally suited in performance. And? As far as it replacing the 747-400's?? Not a chance in BLAZES!! When the Airforce replaces Air Force 1 and "Sand" 28001, with the 747-8 There WILL be an airline in the USA who also flies the 747-8. and I believe it will be UAL or DAL. I also Believe the A350 was ordered by Glenn Tilton with NO forethught as to capability. More than likely the order was Just to "grease the skids" for United and Star Alliance with future European exapnsion, which was even BEFORE ANY merger discussion with Continental or USAir.. I didn't believe THEN nor do I believe NOW that the A350-xxx will be superior to ANYTHING Boeing builds.. It's just another Twin Widebody solely built to keep Boeing "on their toes". As was the A320, A330,.A340, and the A380. We'll fly it because we Ordered it and unless Airbus REALLY screws uo?? It Will be in the fleet in 2016-2017 as will the first of the 25 B787-822's to go along with the -824's ordered by Continental... IMHO
 
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thebatman
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 16):
Can someone explain to me why having a mix of A & B in their fleet is a bad thing? With national pride aside, I feel like a tailored-mix is a healthy thing.

Mixing A and B in your fleet is not necessarily a bad thing. In this case however, you've got two types of airplanes that basically serve the same purpose - 737 vs A320. Now sure, you can say the A319 is more efficient for "xxx" and the 737-9ER is better for "xxx". The main reason I can see is PARTS. A common fleet makes maintenance a whole lot easier. From parts, to maintenance training to flight crew training. Having one broken A320 sitting next to a broken 738 doesn't give you a whole lot of advantage. You need two different parts stockpiles, two different sets of flight crews, FA's etc. Why do you think taxi cab companies drive one type of car (crown victorias usually)? So when you buy oil filters in bulk, you only buy one kind, not some for this car and some for that...
Aircraft mechanics - because pilots need heroes too!
 
phxa340
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 10:18 pm

Your rant is going to cause some serious flaming buddy. I would just delete it

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 40):
I didn't believe THEN nor do I believe NOW that the A350-xxx will be superior to ANYTHING Boeing builds.. It's just another Twin Widebody solely built to keep Boeing "on their toes". As was the A320, A330,.A340, and the A380.

All your rants against Airbus are gettting tired and old. Your posts never make any sense and you always start and A v B war.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting THEBATMAN (Reply 41):
Quoting THEBATMAN (Reply 41):
Mixing A and B in your fleet is not necessarily a bad thing. In this case however, you've got two types of airplanes that basically serve the same purpose - 737 vs A320. Now sure, you can say the A319 is more efficient for "xxx" and the 737-9ER is better for "xxx". The main reason I can see is PARTS. A common fleet makes maintenance a whole lot easier. From parts, to maintenance training to flight crew training. Having one broken A320 sitting next to a broken 738 doesn't give you a whole lot of advantage. You need two different parts stockpiles, two different sets of flight crews, FA's etc. Why do you think taxi cab companies drive one type of car (crown victorias usually)? So when you buy oil filters in bulk, you only buy one kind, not some for this car and some for that...


Then why on earth did Continental buy (1) DC-9s (2) MD-80s and (3) Airbus A300s ?

Was it because Continental was / is an "all-Boeing" airline.

I get the impression a.netters think UA is really WN
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 6):
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 4):I have to disagree. Being an all ?? airline is a huge deal.
It is a huge deal in a very negative way because you lose all negotiation leverages and end up paying huge amounts more for your fleet.

Norwegian stated that they ordered both the NEO and the MAX because that way they were able to squeeze down both suppliers to the max and if they ordered only one of the 2 types they would have paid a lot more for their fleet.

No sir. There are huge benefits each OEM gives an airline for being loyal and only buying their airplanes. A Boeing or Airbus dedicated airline can expect perfrrred customer pricing and that is before any discounts on the order.

Do you really think Boeing would overcharge WN or AS, or Airbus overcharge QR? No, they would not do that as these customers not only represent the current order, but future orders, too.

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 16):
Can someone explain to me why having a mix of A & B in their fleet is a bad thing?

You double your spares inventory, which means double space to store them. You double the costs of flight and maintenance manuals and crew and mechanic training costs.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 18):
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):If the A3510 does actually live up to its promises, then UA may consider buying 15-20 A3510's to replace the 747-400's on transpacific routes.
UA bought 25 A359s for that exact purpose. Why does this topic keep coming up? UA, pre or post merger, has never wavered from the stance that the A350s were 744 replacements.

I don't see why a 314 seat airplane can replace a 374 seat airplane.
 
FX1816
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 43):
Then why on earth did Continental buy (1) DC-9s (2) MD-80s and (3) Airbus A300s ?

I don't believe CO did buy new MD80's but I could be wrong. They also acquired A300's from EA and some factory fresh A300's. It appears as though when Bethune came on board that all changed as the A300's left pretty quickly followed eventually by the DC-10's, DC-9's and MD-80's.

FX1816
 
ghifty
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 44):
I don't see why a 314 seat airplane can replace a 374 seat airplane.

They probably don't need the extra 60 seats/flight. Looking at the current orders, there will basically be one A350 for every 747-400 (let's just round up to 25). With the 60 seat discrepancy, that's 1,500 less seats fleetwide. However, if United exercises their additional 50 options.. they'll potentially add nearly 16,000 more seats. This leads me to assume UA hopes to increase frequency..

Not to mention that the A350, like the 777, should burn a lot less fuel/passenger mile. I'm still puzzled as to why UA didn't order the 77W, which has thus far proved to be a great replacement/complement to the 747.
Fly Delta Jets
 
bigb
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Thu May 10, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 43):
Then why on earth did Continental buy (1) DC-9s (2) MD-80s and (3) Airbus A300s ?

CO never bought MD-80s, A-300s. CO acquired the MD-80s via mergers with Frontier Airlines and the A300s were a result of Frankie transferring assets from EA to CO before EA went bye bye. After Gordon, took over, CO made a huge effort to streamline its fleet down to 737s, 757/767s, and 777s.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Fri May 11, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 3):

77W. Not saying they will but they could....
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
cbphoto
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RE: Will United Be An All Boeing Airline?

Fri May 11, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 34):
According to what they've said, they are leaning towards single supplier/aircraft category. EMB190 cannot be considered equal to the 737 in no wasy shape or form, so I would say they are a whole another story, and not part of this discussion..

The OP asked if UA could become an all Boeing airline? It is irreverent whether the E190 can be considered equal to a 737 (no idea where you got that from) or not. If the E190 makes it's way into United, and is flown with United crews, under the United operating certificate, then it IS considered apart of United, thus rendering the OPs question of "whether United can be an all Boeing airline" False! That is the topic at hand, so I don't know where you are getting your information from??
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