CiC
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Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Thu May 10, 2012 6:02 pm

Haven't found this topic in the forum...

Heard a rumour that LH's new "low cost division" (Germanwings together with LH's stations DUS/HAM/BER) get as well LONG RANGE ex DUS and BER (maybe FRA). One route might be Bangkok, as LH "mainline" already said they want to get rid of BKK due to low yields.
So they can keep the traffic rights and concentrate on "low yield" passengers...
High capacity 330's should be transferred to the new company.

Brand name (or maybe only company name, like the legal name of LH Cargo is still German Cargo) seems to be "Fly for you (fly4U), powered by Lufthansa"

Does anybody have news?
Seems the chinese whispering at the offices knows more than the crews...

Your thoughts?
 
wilco737
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Thu May 10, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting CiC (Thread starter):

There are a lot of rumours about it. LH CEO denied it, not gonna happen. but can we believe him? I don't know.

I doubt it will be long haul flights at the beginning, maybe short haul from DUS, HAM, BER, STR.

We will have to wait and see if they really do it. I hope not as the name Lufthansa needs to be alive as it is a good name in my opinion...

wilco737
  
 
flyingalex
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Thu May 10, 2012 9:42 pm

I don't see it happening in the next two or three years, but you can bet that LH will be watching Scoot very, very closely.

If that ends up working out, I could see LH trying something similar.
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PHX Flyer
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Thu May 10, 2012 9:58 pm

Is there a single example in airline history, where a legacy carrier was able to establish a viable low-cost operation with long-term success? This reminds me a lot of Continental lite and everyone knows how that experiment ended.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Thu May 10, 2012 10:01 pm

Always re-invning the wheel-. Lufthansa had a low cost airline and it was called Condor Flugdienst. Still exists and I heard they are n friendly terms.. Why not leasing 2 or 3 44s to Condor and nam them Max und Moritz.
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flyingalex
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Fri May 11, 2012 2:47 am

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 3):
Is there a single example in airline history, where a legacy carrier was able to establish a viable low-cost operation with long-term success? This reminds me a lot of Continental lite and everyone knows how that experiment ended.

Depends what you mean by "long-term". Qantas's Jetstar subsidiary has been around for almost a decade now, and is still going strong.
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Fri May 11, 2012 3:09 am

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 5):
Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 3):
Is there a single example in airline history, where a legacy carrier was able to establish a viable low-cost operation with long-term success? This reminds me a lot of Continental lite and everyone knows how that experiment ended.

Depends what you mean by "long-term". Qantas's Jetstar subsidiary has been around for almost a decade now, and is still going strong.

It is argued quite often on a.net that JQ is going strong to the detriment of QF.
 
something
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Fri May 11, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting CiC (Thread starter):
"Fly for you (fly4U), powered by Lufthansa"

That would be an awful name, even worse than their 'Nonstop You' compaign.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 6):
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 5):
Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 3):
Is there a single example in airline history, where a legacy carrier was able to establish a viable low-cost operation with long-term success? This reminds me a lot of Continental lite and everyone knows how that experiment ended.

Depends what you mean by "long-term". Qantas's Jetstar subsidiary has been around for almost a decade now, and is still going strong.

It is argued quite often on a.net that JQ is going strong to the detriment of QF.

That's the biggest problem I see. Right now they can fill their planes and still dump their open seats out to those low yielding tourist passengers. If LH were to establish a low cost subsidiary (widebody service), they'd risk losing this passenger contingency and it would furthermore incentivize regular fare paying Y customers to move their business to the low cost branch.

The product distinction between LH Y and Fly4U Y would have to be substantial and I am not quite sure there's good money to be made in the longhaul super-low cost business, especially in the presence of the Gulf carriers. Etihad is offering €300 round trips between GVA-BKK-MXP. EK regularly offers BKK for €400 or less.

If LH wishes to address low yielding markets, they should take a bunch of 744s, put a business class product on the upper deck, 100 seats of premium economy and fill the rest up with high density economy seats. Which, incidentally, is exactly what Condor is doing, plus they sell their seat contingencies through tour operators.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
Always re-invning the wheel-. Lufthansa had a low cost airline and it was called Condor Flugdienst. Still exists and I heard they are n friendly terms.. Why not leasing 2 or 3 44s to Condor and nam them Max und Moritz.

  

Would be nice to see Condor colored 744s again.
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Semaex
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Fri May 11, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
Always re-invning the wheel-. Lufthansa had a low cost airline and it was called Condor Flugdienst. Still exists and I heard they are n friendly terms.. Why not leasing 2 or 3 44s to Condor and nam them Max und Moritz.

Oh la la, I wouldn't call DE a low cost airline at all. But feel free to have a different opinion on the matter.
Btw, I like the Max and Moritz idea. It's cheeky.


I don't think this Fly4U long-haul business is going to work.
First of all it creates costs that a LCC operation isn't going to favor, mainly, different aircraft which brings along new mx issues, type ratings and so on. Then you have the layovers of crews which suck up money, something that 4U has so far actively avoided.
Second thing is that LH will not compromise its long-haule routes, which are basically the only ones they do make money on. The potential of pax taking a low yield flight with maybe one transfer instead of taking mainline LH is too risky.
And third: AB is already eating up the leasure/long haule market ex Germany. If they can't make it work (which so far it seems the can't, having a look at the numbers), then why would another LCC be able to?

Quoting CiC (Thread starter):

Is there any link or reference at all which you could link us to? Rumour is a nice thing and speculations are fun, but hard facts and official statements are better.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Fri May 11, 2012 7:48 pm

Isn't that going to be OS, or more accurately VO d/b/a OS in the near(ish) future?   
 
PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Fri May 11, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 8):
Oh la la, I wouldn't call DE a low cost airline at all. But feel free to have a different opinion on the matter.
Btw, I like the Max and Moritz idea. It's cheeky.

I am not sure oif you know that DF (Condor) hat, in early 70s 2 747-100s one was called Max and the other Moritz. The best is, they served the Meditarranean routes, I think DUS-PMI was sometimes twice daily by 747 and a couple of LTU Tristars as well, plus whatever else flew that route.

Condor is an airline that serves markets which LH won't. Called it what you want, they have a special product which makes destinaitons served once or twic weekly viable. I have no idea if their costs are below those of LH, but I would not be surprised.
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something
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Fri May 11, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
Condor is an airline that serves markets which LH won't. Called it what you want, they have a special product which makes destinaitons served once or twic weekly viable. I have no idea if their costs are below those of LH, but I would not be surprised.

Condor pay is appreciably below Lufthansa, at least on the old contracts, but slightly above the regionals. They do have a pretty solid onboard product, and they do sell the majority of their seats through tour operators and travel agencies. They have the occasional promotion going on where they'll dump a large contingency of seats for decent fares, but usually it's very expensive to buy single seats on them through their website. FRA-BWI or FRA-SEA are never cheaper on DE than they are on LH. As far as their route network is concerned: They do fly to a bunch of very interesting destinations, among which are Manaus, Anchorage, Rangun and Baltimore. Most importantly though, they don't have a first class, a very limited business section and a premium economy class - such a layout is much better suited for low yielding tourist markets.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
JQflightie
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Sat May 12, 2012 4:03 am

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 3):

JQ - Jetstar, is celebrating its 8th birthday this month. For those that dont know about JQ it is QF 's LCC, started out domestic with B717's, swapping to A320's A321's and for Long Haul international routes A332's. Thats a pretty successful airline, constantly providing the QFGroup with strong profits.
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EK413
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Sat May 12, 2012 5:57 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):

Totally agree...!

Quoting JQflightie (Reply 12):

Not to mention the airline has become more profitable than QF International which has been bleeding and is hopefully on a path to recovery...

EK413
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SchorschNG
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Sat May 12, 2012 8:02 am

It might work if a carrier is supplied "end of lifetime" aircraft that LH doesn't need any more.
Lufthansa has a big bunch of widebodies nearing retirement.
They have 26 A340-300, The oldest approach 20 years of age.
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EK413
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Sat May 12, 2012 8:46 am

Quoting SchorschNG (Reply 14):

Any indications as to which type of aircraft to replace the A343 fleet...?

EK413
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Semaex
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Sat May 12, 2012 9:01 am

Quoting something (Reply 11):
Condor pay is appreciably below Lufthansa, at least on the old contracts, but slightly above the regionals.

DE pay is appreciably below LH pay because LH pay is appreciably above all other pay. There's a very fine document on the DE homepage which shows the gradual increase of salary for FOs and CPTs for a 12-year period. I wouldn't call that at all a bad salary!
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
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EK413
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Sat May 12, 2012 9:11 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 16):
DE pay is appreciably below LH pay because LH pay is appreciably above all other pay. There's a very fine document on the DE homepage which shows the gradual increase of salary for FOs and CPTs for a 12-year period. I wouldn't call that at all

Any links...?

EK413
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Semaex
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Sat May 12, 2012 3:53 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 17):
Any links...?

Didn't post because it's in german, but here you go: https://www.career.aero/condor/de/job/file/id/1037/token/upload12
A pdf which gives you a brief overview of DE pilot salaries. I'd say it's not too shabby, and definitely nothing LCCish.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
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EK413
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Sat May 12, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 18):

Cheers, online translator comes handy  

EK413
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columba
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RE: Lufthansa's New Low Cost Division On Long Range?

Sat May 12, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 15):
Any indications as to which type of aircraft to replace the A343 fleet...?

A short while ago there was a thread based on a Flightinternational article hat LH might be the launch customer of the 787-10, BUT as there are a lot of things going on with LH right now they might no order any new planes anytime soon.

Some older A340 will definitely be replaced with A333 and at a later date we will seem them replaced by either A350s or 787s while I see a great chance for the 787-10.
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