PHX787
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TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 6:32 am


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In this photo from the 90s, we see the classic TWA 741 with 3 windows on each side of the upper deck. What was up there back in the 90s? The lounge, or business class seats, or what? How come TWA didn't modify their 741s in the 80s?
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sevenheavy
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 6:51 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):

When they were delivered in the early 70s they had a lounge, later on (early 80s) they had 16 royal ambassador business class seats. Finally, in the early 90s, they were fitted with 12 trans world one seats.
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DL_Mech
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 1):
Finally, in the early 90s, they were fitted with 12 trans world one seats.

Was it 12? I thought it was 8.

Here is video of the upper deck of a TWA 747 in 1986:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7t9Dd7JNNc

At 3:27, they show the front of the cabin.
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longhauler
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
How come TWA didn't modify their 741s in the 80s?

That mod was pretty expensive.

The upper deck was extended slightly, (internally), the windows were added, and a second emergency exit was added to allow the greater number of passengers. If an airline kept only three windows and one exit, usually the cabin was left for premium seating, which were aligned with the windows.

The later build B747-100s already had the windows inserts in the frame, they were just not used. That was the case with TWA 800, and led to confusion and conspiracy claims. There were only 3 windows on each side, but when the wreckage was rebuilt, one could see that the other windows were there, just not used.
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sevenheavy
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 2):

Could be. I have a seat map that shows 12 but I haven't flown a TW B741 in the trans world one era.

Maybe the seat map is for a B742....supposedly they had some extra space in the bubble over the B741?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):

Conversely, TWA also had a couple of -200's that had the 3 window configuration. I think they were a couple of ex Swissar aircraft, but I forget the reg's.

A few carriers did do,the window mod. TWA preferred theirs with 3 windows, and probably didn't have the cash anyway!

P.s. was it PA that had one or two random 2 window aircraft?
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SXDFC
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 4:44 pm

From what I remember TW had a few 747-200s.. A 747-282, 747-284, and I believe a 747-206, whom wich they bought from TAP, Olympic and KLM.
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sevenheavy
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 5):

Correct. They also had a -238 from QF. The two Swissair ( -257's) examples were N303/304TW. Looks like they moved on, or were at least wet leased to Nationair in the early 90's.

TWA also acquired used B741's from AF and BA. Their original fleet actually ended up being pretty small after they sold some of their frames in the mid 70's to the IIAF, but they built it back up to over 20 by the late 80s. Some of them only stayed around for a few years, others were acquired much later.....bit of a motley fleet!
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kl5147
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 5):
I believe a 747-206, whom which they bought from KLM.


This a/c was delivered to KLM with 3 upper-deck windows on each side. During 1979/1980 KLM modified ten upper-deck of their 6 oldest 747''s. They got 10 windows on each side, and an extra emergency exit on the port side.

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Viscount724
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 3):
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
How come TWA didn't modify their 741s in the 80s?

That mod was pretty expensive.

The upper deck was extended slightly, (internally), the windows were added, and a second emergency exit was added to allow the greater number of passengers. If an airline kept only three windows and one exit, usually the cabin was left for premium seating, which were aligned with the windows.

CP Air's first 2 742s, like other early production 742s, had only one upper deck emergency exit on the right side. The next 2 delivered about a year later had 2 exits, one on each side. For the first few years it wasn't a factor as the upper deck was used as a first class lounge, but when they replaced the lounge with saleable seats the 2 742s with the single exit were limited to 16 seats while those with the extra exit had 30 seats. It was originally Y class on the upper deck and the 2 aircraft with the single exit were very spacious with just 4 rows of 2-2 Y class seating and a huge amount of empty space. I travelled up there a few times in those seats. The aircraft with the additional exit had 5 rows of 3-3 Y class seats and it was still quite roomy.

They later moved first class from the nose to the upper deck with 12 sleeper seats 2-2 and the original F class seats in the nose (also extended to the B-zone) became the new J class cabin (called Royal Canadian Class) with 50 J seats replacing the original 28 F class but no change in the seats or seat pitch. It was that product that prompted AC to introduce their own upgraded J class, if not mistaken also using the same original F class seats.

CP dropped F class not long after, about the time the 4 742s were disposed of to PIA in an exchange for 4 of PIA's DC-10-30s which better suited CP's network. They reintroduced F (after becoming Canadian Airlnes) on the 763s and 744s but it didn't last long and was replaced by a significantly upgraded J class product with reclining sleeper seats much like the original F class seats that made F redundant

If memory correct, CP's 742s were among the first built with the extended internal upper deck modifications that added a few feet to length of the cabin at the rear. Some carriers used that area as an upper deck galley.
 
B737900
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 9:55 pm

In June 1990 I flew Varig from LAX to NRT in F class. F class at that time was located on the top deck. If I remember correctly there were 12 seats (6 pairs side-by-side). I do believe it was a 747-100. Could be wrong on that though. The flight was 12 hours of pure pleasure. In those days the flight deck door was left open so the F class pax could take a look. Very memorable.
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Viscount724
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sat May 12, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting B737900 (Reply 9):
In June 1990 I flew Varig from LAX to NRT in F class. F class at that time was located on the top deck. If I remember correctly there were 12 seats (6 pairs side-by-side). I do believe it was a 747-100. Could be wrong on that though.

It would have been a -200. Varig operated the 747-200/300/400 but no -100s.
 
fanofjets
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sun May 13, 2012 1:22 am

What's more, even when the 10-window upper deck was standard, TWA had Boeing plug in the extra windows to maintain consistancy across the fleet, at least while the airline flew only -131s. This fact is most apparent when viewing the photos of the recovered wreckage of N93119, one of the airlines later deliveries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_800

The impact with the water blew out the 7 plugs of the upper-deck windows.
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bdl2stl2pvg
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RE: TWA 747-131 Upper Deck Question

Sun May 13, 2012 6:02 am

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 2):
Was it 12? I thought it was 8.


I am certain that it was 8 during the Trans World One era. IIRC, it was rows 91 & 92, perhaps 91-1, 91-2, 91-8, 91-9 etc. using the then TWA number -number vs. number-letter scheme.

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