4tet
Topic Author
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:18 am

Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 8:02 pm

Hi everybody!

Yesterday I traveled BCN - CRL and I was shocked as the rows 1 - 4 were locked so anybody could seat there.

I've been digging around the forum and I've learnt that this is for balancing the aircraft. Still, I feel there are some things that aren't clear (to me at least) so I decided to post.

So to put you in situation. 21 seats empty, and the rest of the plane was absolutely full (0 other free seats), so I can imagine this must be coordinated with sales and ticketing.

21 @ €50 (we paid around €115 for the round trip in a well advance, so I suppose the mean fare is higher) seats means some €1050 'lost' revenue in that leg.

So my questions are:

Which is the reason for FR to loose those 1000 euros? Cost savings can only come by fuel savings... And anyway, why not sell then the last 21 tickets more expensive to offset those costs?

I have only seen this in FR, why is this not common in other airlines if it really helps saving costs?

Then, an aircraft which the optimum is not occupying the 4 first rows? Really? This happens only in the 737 family or also in the 320 family?

Thanks!!
R.

PD: Anyone knows why in BCN never allow the planes to cross runway 07L/25R? This makes the ground taxi a loooong journey...
 
santos
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:46 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 8:06 pm

You sure it wasn't because FR now allows Reserved Seating on front rows?
http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/ryana...ce-on-12-brussels-charleroi-routes
 
HullCitySpotter
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:29 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 8:12 pm

We had this on the KUN - LBA route; although on the way there people were sat in rows 1-4 as the flight was completely full. However seats 1/2 can be reserved online so this can't always be the case.
 
lmml 14/32
Posts: 2358
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:27 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 8:15 pm

FR blocks rows according to the load. The reason being that since the crew do the cleaning on their very short turnarounds, it saves time on the ground.
 
EIDL
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:11 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 8:22 pm

Rows are only blocked if un-sold so the revenue argument isn't relevant - if the seats could be sold, they would have been.

They are also now known to refuse to let anyone sit in the "premium" seats if the flight is underbooked and said seats aren't sold. The IAA are investigating this at the moment as its resulting in, occasionally, all 6 exit row seats being left empty at all times during the flight which is in breach of IAA regulations.
 
4tet
Topic Author
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:18 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 8:27 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 4):

Rows are only blocked if un-sold so the revenue argument isn't relevant - if the seats could be sold, they would have been.

I mean, It could be just coincidence that just 21 seats were unsold? I don't think so...
 
Cabincrewifly
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:47 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 8:39 pm

Rule 1 (Mandatory)
Passenger load of 177 or less = Block off row 3 and 4.

Rule 2 (Optional, applicable only when advised by Captain or
dispatcher)
Passenger load of 129 or less = Block off rows 3-8 and the last four rows.
EI FR RE EIR IWD MA FUA
 
EIDL
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:11 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting 4tet (Reply 5):
Quoting EIDL (Reply 4):

Rows are only blocked if un-sold so the revenue argument isn't relevant - if the seats could be sold, they would have been.

I mean, It could be just coincidence that just 21 seats were unsold? I don't think so...

If there were enough seats sold, the rows would be un-blocked. I've been on Ryanair flights with >180 pax before, clearly nothing is blocked then.

Ryanair's business model doesn't allow for randomly deciding not to sell seats. It has no impact on the number of F/A's required (IAA regs, again) so even a flight that is likely to carry less than 100 or less than 150 is still going to have 189 seats available for sale and 4 F/As. Rows will be blocked to 'contain' the passengers in as little space as possible, but only when there's seats unsold.
 
awthompson
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 10:00 pm

When Ryanair had flights into Belfast City (pulled out of here some time ago), the front few rows were always blocked off. I was led to believe that this was to do with a weight limit on the plane due to the 1800m runway length at this airport. Was that not the reason at all then?
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6408
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 10:47 pm

This is nothing special for FR. I would assume that all airlines with free seating do the same when planes are not fully booked.

Lately I was on an ATR42 - 12 seat rows, and a little unusual since it has the door in the back. We were 13 pax boarding.

The FA stood in the aisle at row #7, and in addition to the usual welcome song she shouted: "Please find a seat in the back of the cabin, you won't pass me since I am stronger than you".

And then she paid a special smile to a couple of gentlemen who could probably triple her figure on the scale.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1699
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sat May 12, 2012 11:57 pm

By blocking off some rows the crew do not have to check or clean those on the turnaround, thus saving time.

FR often cite weight and balance issues, this would only be the case if there was a very light load on the B738, I'm not sure of the numbers but on an A320 it is 110 or less, so I assume it would be somewhat similar for an FR B738.
With assigned seating other airlines can allocate specific seats to ensure corect trim, however with free seating on FR and flight of 110 pax could end up having incorrect trim.
However in the case of a nearly full flight trim would not be an issue and it becomes a technique by FR to save a bit of time on each turnaround.
 
User avatar
beau222
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 11:42 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 12:05 am

I know on DL we add 50lb sand bags if needed for WB why co.uldn't they just add some in the back to balance out for passengers
 
planesailing
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 1:15 am

On all the aircraft that my company have handled, trim blocks are often used at either end of the aircraft when the aircraft is not booked full, even if its only within 5-10% of capacity of the aircraft. If we need to use any of the seats, for norecs for example, then we have to get approval. Whilst we are talking about only 20 people, 20 men at the average weight of 80kgs is 1.6t of weight to balance if spread unequally around the aircraft. Bags are meticulously balanced in the holds and they're only 20kg in weight each, but humans have exception to being positioned to balance the aircraft, even though they weigh more than a bag and therefore cause a greater weight and balance issue.
 
grimey
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:48 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 3:20 am

In my flight training I was told that the further back the Centre of Gravity is the less stable the aircraft is but it is more fuel efficient. On a short flight like BCN - CRL I don't know how much fuel can be saved on a B738 but the FR theory is that all these small things add up since they have so many flight each day/year.

I knew someone back in Dublin who knew someone (typical Irish thing to have a friend of a friend) that worked in FR and I was told that this persons job was to work out the estimated weights on the aircraft for each flight and to say where the people should be sitting. With the price of fuel nowadays if that person can save more money in fuel then his wages then its a bonus for FR.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting beau222 (Reply 11):
I know on DL we add 50lb sand bags if needed for WB why co.uldn't they just add some in the
back to balance out for passengers

They could but it it wouldn't fit with their business model. That's time/money/equipment that they don't want. It's simpler to block seats.

Tom.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11089
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting beau222 (Reply 11):

I know on DL we add 50lb sand bags if needed for WB why co.uldn't they just add some in the back to balance out for passengers

Why add ballast when you can just rearrange the revenue producing ballast?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
They could but it it wouldn't fit with their business model. That's time/money/equipment that they don't want. It's simpler to block seats

I've heard stories about planes stopping on taxiways to rearrange passengers. Probably those airlines that get weight and balance from the dispatcher.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
I would assume that all airlines with free seating do the same when planes are not fully booked.

I don't think I've ever seen this, and I've seen enough empty seats to know this isn't the case. For the airline to cram everyone together and leave rows of seats empty is really bad, cleaning or no cleaning.
Fortune favours the brave
 
grimey
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:48 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 5:39 am

and this is why Mass & Balance calculation are very important

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Midwest_Flight_5481

it doesn't matter if your flying a Cessna 152, Beechcraft 1900, Boeing 737-800 or A380 the Mass and Balance law is nearly all the same; you can only load so much weight into an aircraft and that weight must be positioned in the correct areas in order for the aircraft to preform safe flight.

[Edited 2012-05-12 22:41:04]
 
boeingorbust
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:44 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 7:12 am

Don't know if this has anything to do with it also, but I'm sure as you all know, airplanes fly more efficiently with a more rearward C of G...
 
airevents
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2002 7:20 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 9:59 am

I find this ridiculous and not customer friendly at all. When you only have a light load on an aircraft like a Boeing 737 it is nice for everybody to spread their wings a little bit, especially on an airline not known for its generous seat pitch. Another reason for me to boycott Ryanair in the future...
www.airevents.com
 
B777LRF
Posts: 1422
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 10:16 am

Quoting airevents (Reply 19):
I find this ridiculous and not customer friendly at all. When you only have a light load on an aircraft like a Boeing 737 it is nice for everybody to spread their wings a little bit, especially on an airline not known for its generous seat pitch. Another reason for me to boycott Ryanair in the future...

Think you made the mistake of using the term "customer friendly" and Ryanair in the same sentence. They don't give 2 fifths of frack all about you once you've paid them your money, but will do everything to save a cent. If that means you'll get squeezed more in return for them not having to clean 3 rows of seats, you loose.

I've flown them once, and once only, just to be able to form an opinion based on experience. Never again.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
Cabincrewifly
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:47 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 10:20 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 20):
Think you made the mistake of using the term "customer friendly" and Ryanair in the same sentence. They don't give 2 fifths of frack all about you once you've paid them your money, but will do everything to save a cent. If that means you'll get squeezed more in return for them not having to clean 3 rows of seats, you loose.

There's tons of other rows in the aircraft to choose from. Why moan over rows 3 and 4 and the other rows they might close off? You got a cheap ticket, and you know what you sign up for when flying Ryanair so why bother complaining after. Go fly another airline
EI FR RE EIR IWD MA FUA
 
ozzietukker
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 11:19 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting Cabincrewifly (Reply 21):
There's tons of other rows in the aircraft to choose from. Why moan over rows 3 and 4 and the other rows they might close off? You got a cheap ticket, and you know what you sign up for when flying Ryanair so why bother complaining after. Go fly another airline

It is not the point that there are other rows to choose from, the point is that in the opinion of a customer Ryanair prevent them from getting some more space by blocking off some rows so all passengers are forced to sit together with no open seats.
The problem is that the passenger get told that this is for balancing reasons, but they will not believe this, and why would they? Other (LCC) airlines don't do this at all.

I understand why Ryanair might want to do this, balancing reasons in the beginning is correct, but when you have a load from more then 75% it does not make sense since people naturally will spread around the plane, you don't need to block rows for this.
Ofcourse there might be truth that a blocked row will save the cabin crew some time a the turn arounds so they don't have to clean, and when blocking off the rows a plane might in theory be a bit more fuel efficiënt since you know where the passengers will be sitting, but this is a long shot since you don't know the weight of the passengers so if a group of larger people sit together at the back or in the front this theory fails.

Ofcourse people have a choice. Personally, I only fly Ryanair from Eindhoven to Stansted, and only when the return flight cost less then 20 euro including taxes and booking fees. This flight is so short I don't mind where I am sitting, but for all other flights any other airline will get my business. But I am an advanced traveller, every week I am in a plane, so I know what is out there, but people going on holiday once or twice a year get caught by surprise with Ryanair.
 
coolum
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:24 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 12:30 pm

Ryanair have been using this policy of blocking seats for quite some years.

As has been eluded to earlier, it is basically due to weight & balance.

If you think of the seating on the aircraft broken into 3 equal areas (these are not always equal, but for the sake of simplicity) and call them A, B and C.
With a light load, you have the majority of passengers seated in area B, which causes the least effect on balance and therefore reduces the amount of error when calculating trim settings.

Cabincrewifly stated the rulings they used in an earlier post.
For the bigger loads (Rule 1), rows 3 & 4 were blocked for wheelchair passengers, nothing to do with weight & balance.

I am not really surprised they have started to block 1 to 4 to try and make some extra money. I am only surprised it has taken them this long to put it into action.

The other airlines I have handled that used free-seating used to evenly spread the passengers out when the loads weren't full, Easyjet springs to mind.

[Edited 2012-05-13 05:31:50]
Coolum
 
cuban8
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:17 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting coolum (Reply 23):
As has been eluded to earlier, it is basically due to weight & balance.

Weight & balance doesn't have that much importance when an airplane is nearly fully booked. If the passenger load is below 100 pax I can buy the argue, but not in this case.

Also, weight & balance is mostly calculated for the take-off performance (and in some cases for landing performance), so Ryanair should allow people to change their seat during cruise, which is not the case.

As people say, you get what you pay for. Cheap company - cheap practices...
When business goes to hell, you get rid of three things. Your private jet, your yacht and your mistress..........and most importantly in that order.
~ Russian Billionaire ~
 
BMI727
Posts: 11089
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 24):
Cheap company - cheap practices...

What's cheap about it? You pay for one ticket you get one seat on the flight. Not a whole row. Not a seat with an empty one next to it. One seat. People can complain when they get less than what they pay for, but this is certainly not such a case.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
ozzietukker
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 11:19 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
What's cheap about it? You pay for one ticket you get one seat on the flight. Not a whole row. Not a seat with an empty one next to it. One seat. People can complain when they get less than what they pay for, but this is certainly not such a case.

Probably you should get what you pay for. But as you want to have returning customers it is probably a wiser idear to make them satisfied with the flight rather then annoy those people with made up rules.

When I fly Ryanair I know what to expect, a flight from A to B, that same I get with Easyjet, somehow the experience with Easyjet is so much more relaxed then Ryanair that if given a choice Easyjet always will get my business.
There is no need by a nearly full flight to block rows other then to give them to weelchair passengers. Luckely not all Ryanair flightcrew blocking off rows, I have flown many where the rows where not blocked and the people allowed to spread around.
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 4:27 pm

So it looks like nobody knows the answer to your question. And no word from our flight crew either.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
This is nothing special for FR. I would assume that all airlines with free seating do the same when planes are not fully booked.

On most half full flights I've been on the captain asks us all to move forward in the cabin. They want more weight slightly forward of the wing.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
GCT64
Posts: 1256
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 4):
They are also now known to refuse to let anyone sit in the "premium" seats if the flight is underbooked and said seats aren't sold. The IAA are investigating this at the moment as its resulting in, occasionally, all 6 exit row seats being left empty at all times during the flight which is in breach of IAA regulations.

This happened on my recent FR DNR-STN flight. All overwing exit rows empty and the cabin crew refusing to let pax sit there. I considered raising the safety regulations issue with the crew but wasn't 100% certain of the IAA regs (although from my experience of EI, I believe that they should have positioned pax in those rows).

If anyone from the IAA needs a witness that this happened, I'm happy to provide them with a statement!
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,(..53 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 28):
This happened on my recent FR DNR-STN flight. All overwing exit rows empty and the cabin crew refusing to let pax sit there.

Who would they give the pre-flight safety briefing (regarding being able to lift the door) too if no-one was sitting there? The next row?
Fortune favours the brave
 
GCT64
Posts: 1256
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 29):
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 28):This happened on my recent FR DNR-STN flight. All overwing exit rows empty and the cabin crew refusing to let pax sit there.
Who would they give the pre-flight safety briefing (regarding being able to lift the door) too if no-one was sitting there? The next row?

They didn't deliver a briefing on the overwing exits.
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,(..53 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 30):
They didn't deliver a briefing on the overwing exits.

Is it not required in Europe? If there's an emergency and there is no-one around who is willing and able to open the door that would be a problem.
Fortune favours the brave
 
EIDL
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:11 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 5:55 pm

It is required. Hence the IAA issuing a "reminder" bulletin this year, that was quite obviously directed at FR:

http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=97&a=225&pp=470&nn=283&lID=948
 
GCT64
Posts: 1256
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 32):
Hence the IAA issuing a "reminder" bulletin this year,

Interesting that the bulletin was issued almost 2 months before I was on an FR flight where the "self help emergency exits" were not occupied. Either FR doesn't really care about IAA "reminders" or their internal communication procedures down to staff don't work.

Time for another "reminder" or perhaps something stronger?
Perhaps we should all print off a copy of the IAA bulletin for use on future flights?

[Edited 2012-05-13 11:08:02]


Checking further, I see that on 19th April, something stronger was issued:
http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=97&a=225&pp=119&nn=327&lID=953

Includes the words:

"the Irish Aviation Authority hereby directs that:
Non floor level aircraft emergency exits, when required to provide evacuation capability for the aircraft passenger numbers to be carried on a particular flight, shall be attended by an able bodied and briefed passenger at the immediately adjoining seat to the exit concerned. Immediately adjoining means a seat from which a passenger can proceed directly to the exit without entering the aisle or passing around an obstruction. "

Clear and explicit orders for FR.


[Edited 2012-05-13 11:11:11]


[Edited 2012-05-13 11:12:16]
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,(..53 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
Daleaholic
Posts: 2653
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 24):
Weight & balance doesn't have that much importance when an airplane is nearly fully booked. If the passenger load is below 100 pax I can buy the argue, but not in this case.

As people say, you get what you pay for. Cheap company - cheap practices...

Did you seriously just say W&B doesn't have much importance?  

And not cheap practices, they're fast practices which ensures the aircraft can be turned around in the 25 minutes allowed on FR.

As has been stated....

Quoting Cabincrewifly (Reply 6):

On Ryanair, there is Rule 1 and Rule 2 based on passenger figures and related weights. These rules determine whether or not rows are blocked off. The Ryanair loadsheet (designed by Boeing) has a system of telling you whether or not to use rule 1/2 once you've filled in the weights.

Quoting 4tet (Thread starter):
Which is the reason for FR to loose those 1000 euros? Cost savings can only come by fuel savings... And anyway, why not sell then the last 21 tickets more expensive to offset those costs?

I doubt FR are wanting to lose the money, they just couldn't fill the aircraft, hence the reason for rows being blocked off to ensure the aircraft is in trim.

Quoting 4tet (Thread starter):
Then, an aircraft which the optimum is not occupying the 4 first rows? Really? This happens only in the 737 family or also in the 320 family?

Seats are blocked off on all aircraft types to assist with the weight and balance of the aircraft, it's just more common on Ryanair due to the 2 seating rules and the fact there is no allocated seating.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
lucce
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:12 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting coolum (Reply 23):
Cabincrewifly stated the rulings they used in an earlier post.
For the bigger loads (Rule 1), rows 3 & 4 were blocked for wheelchair passengers, nothing to do with weight & balance.

Actually no. The wheelchair seats are: 32A, 32F, 3A, 3F (full flight), 32A, 32F, 5A, 5F (Rule 1), 28A, 28F, 9A, 9F (Rule 2).
BTW, am I the only one that finds it kind of strange that FR lets everyone find their training manual just with some random googleing? http://www.dalmac.ie/zips/PreCourseP...PCSP%20-%20Initial%20Topic%202.pdf
 
Cabincrewifly
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:47 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting lucce (Reply 35):
BTW, am I the only one that finds it kind of strange that FR lets everyone find their training manual just with some random googleing? http://www.dalmac.ie/zips/PreCourseP...PCSP%20-%20Initial%20Topic%202.pdf

We gain a basic knowledge and understanding of what the training course involves from this manual, it involves a lot but not everything
EI FR RE EIR IWD MA FUA
 
AA94
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 7:33 pm

As has been stated, it is due to weight and balance calculations. An official explanation from Ryanair is as follows:

Quote:
Due to performance limits set down by Boeing, Ryanair are required to block off seats onboard when the number of passengers on board falls below a specified number - this ensures that the weight of passengers and bags is carried correctly distributed in front of and behind the aircraft's centre of gravity.
If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
 
lucce
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:12 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Sun May 13, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting Cabincrewifly (Reply 36):
We gain a basic knowledge and understanding of what the training course involves from this manual, it involves a lot but not everything

Okay, I guess it helps to speed up the training. I just don't see why they don't put a password on it. Well I guess since many airlines' pilot manuals are similarly available it can't do much harm. Oh well, I'm not, complaining, it was nice to scroll through anyways.

As for the original topic, for example BA seems to be pretty strict about staying in your assigned seat until the seat belt sing is off. After that they let you make yourself comfortable but you have to move back for landing.

I would like to also note that it wasn't long ago when someone here said that LX put the class divider as far back as possible so that economy pax wouldn't have a empty seat next to them=it would pay off to book business. Can't remember in which thread this was said in though.
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 12:35 am

If it falls on the people in the next row to agree to being willing and able, I can imagine people declining to agree. If Ryanair aren't going to do their customers any favours, why should the customers help them out?

If everyone refused, what would happen to the flight?
Fortune favours the brave
 
coolum
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:24 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 8:52 am

Quoting lucce (Reply 35):
Actually no. The wheelchair seats are: 32A, 32F, 3A, 3F (full flight), 32A, 32F, 5A, 5F (Rule 1), 28A, 28F, 9A, 9F (Rule 2)

Cheers for that.
It has been a couple of years since I had to dispatch a Ryanair flight, so not surprised it has changed.
Coolum
 
grimey
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:48 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 27):
On most half full flights I've been on the captain asks us all to move forward in the cabin. They want more weight slightly forward of the wing.

The Centre of Gravity must always be forward of the Centre of Pressure (this is where the lift happens on the wing) the main reason for this is because if there is an engine failure the pilots will be able to control the aircraft and have a better view since the nose drops.

As I have said before in this thread that the more rearward the CoG is then the more efficient the aircraft will be and that's why the captain will ask for the weight SLIGHTLY forward of the wing. Depending on the flight and the fuel consumption of the aircraft the CoG will change as there will be less fuel on board; I think in most aircraft designs the CoG moves more forward as the flight goes on (or more fuel get consumed).

Quoting EIDL (Reply 32):
It is required. Hence the IAA issuing a "reminder" bulletin this year, that was quite obviously directed at FR:

The IAA have stated that Cabin Crew may occupy the seats, would it seem more sense that they occupy these seats during take off and landing (if it is FR idea to leave these seats empty for fuel saving) and since they wouldn't be in these seats permanently during flight then they are not really affecting the mass and balance during the cruise.
 
Semaex
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 24):
Weight & balance doesn't have that much importance when an airplane is nearly fully booked. If the passenger load is below 100 pax I can buy the argue, but not in this case.

Also, weight & balance is mostly calculated for the take-off performance (and in some cases for landing performance), so Ryanair should allow people to change their seat during cruise, which is not the case.

As people say, you get what you pay for. Cheap company - cheap practices...

Both statements are untrue.
In airplanes which can suit more than 100 pax but are filled with far less, where do you get the idea from that W&B isn't important? After all, fuel needs to be distributed inside the aircraft too, as does cargo and mail.
And that W&B is only important for TO/LA is also rubbish. These are the most critical phases of the flight, no doubt about it, and a correct amount of stick force (which depends on CG position) is absolutely vital when the autopilots are off, but that does not mean that CG location is unimportant during cruise.
As others have stated, the further aft the CG is, the more maneuverable and more efficient the aircraft is. The further front you put the CG, the more stability you have, but you need to trim this stibility out, and by trimming you always reduce the efficiency of the surfaces on your aircraft.

When I did my flight training in the US on a Piper Cherokee, I had a somewhat overweight flight instructor. He told me that on one trip he did, when he put his seat back by 10cm, he had tens of miles of gain in range. Same principle applies to airliners.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
4tet
Topic Author
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:18 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 1:06 pm

Ok, we have assumed is for balance reasons.

Then if so, those overwing exits would have to be occupied always, as probably they are just on the CoG of the aircraft, isn't it? Appart from the legal thing...
 
smbukas
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:17 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 39):
If it falls on the people in the next row to agree to being willing and able, I can imagine people declining to agree. If Ryanair aren't going to do their customers any favours, why should the customers help them out?

I fly Wizz Air very often. I usually buy their "emergency seats" feature as I think it is very good value for your money.

But usually if it is a not full flight, those seats remain empty because nobody purchased it. Wizz Air policy is to ask somebody to sit there and I personally saw few examples how difficult it was for cabin crew to find somebody to agree to sit there. In one flight the crew failed to find somebody to agree to sit here (it was about 140 passengers in the aircraft!!) so one member of the cabin crew sit in passenger seat in emergency row.

There so many non-frequent passengers in LCC flights and many of them is scared just with idea to be responsible to open door in emergency situation.
 
cuban8
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:17 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 34):
Did you seriously just say W&B doesn't have much importance?
Quoting Semaex (Reply 42):
Both statements are untrue.

I don't know what you guys are talking about, but I'm referring to Ryanair blocking the first 4 rows for weight & balance reasons. Believe me, these 24 seats out of 189 may be empty anywhere in the airplane and you will still be within the limits for an acceptable CoG. Unless the load-master has done everything opposite to the loading instruction with possible cargo, your weight & balance will be just fine. How do you think Ryanair did before this procedure came up???

Quoting Semaex (Reply 42):
After all, fuel needs to be distributed inside the aircraft too

That's not applicable on the 737-800. It is done automatically while fueling. Nothing you can do about that.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 42):
as does cargo and mail

That is correct. If you do have cargo or mail, you can compensate those 4 empty front rows by putting cargo/mail in the aft cargo hold. Therefore making the Ryanair statement about weight & balance highly discussable.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 42):
And that W&B is only important for TO/LA is also rubbish. These are the most critical phases of the flight, no doubt about it, and a correct amount of stick force (which depends on CG position) is absolutely vital when the autopilots are off, but that does not mean that CG location is unimportant during cruise.

Please enlight me what the crew can do to change the CoG on a 737-800 during cruise which will significantly affect the weight & balance of that flight. If you have a good CoG during take off on a 737-800, in most cases you won't have to worry about your CoG during cruise or landing since it will be within limits. If you have a bad CoG during take off, it will of course affect the cruise and landing CoG in a negative way. In both cases with the 737-800, the crew have almost no power to do anything about it once the flight is airborne.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 42):
When I did my flight training in the US on a Piper Cherokee, I had a somewhat overweight flight instructor. He told me that on one trip he did, when he put his seat back by 10cm, he had tens of miles of gain in range. Same principle applies to airliners.

Let's not even go there mate. Are you trying to compare a Piper to an airliner?? Yes, an aft CoG has a positive effect on fuel efficiency up to a certain extent but that's about it. The couple of hundred kilos you might save with an aft CoG on a 737-800 will not get you that much further.

Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 34):
And not cheap practices, they're fast practices which ensures the aircraft can be turned around in the 25 minutes allowed on FR.

For me it sounds cheap. Weight & balance is a safety issue, not to be confused by the 4 rows of empty seats Ryanair is trying to state. Trying to turn around the aircraft in 25 minutes is also cheap practices in my opinion and definitely more important in concerns of safety than 4 rows of empty seats on a 737-800, but that's for another thread.

Cheers
When business goes to hell, you get rid of three things. Your private jet, your yacht and your mistress..........and most importantly in that order.
~ Russian Billionaire ~
 
EIDL
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:11 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting grimey (Reply 41):
The IAA have stated that Cabin Crew may occupy the seats, would it seem more sense that they occupy these seats during take off and landing (if it is FR idea to leave these seats empty for fuel saving) and since they wouldn't be in these seats permanently during flight then they are not really affecting the mass and balance during the cruise.

You have four CC. There are four other exits which they generally man... I'd need to read IAA regs but I imagine leaving the fore and aft doors unmanned is significantly more serious than leaving the overwings (with their quite obvious instruction cars, etc) unmanned!
 
Semaex
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:17 pm

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 45):
I don't know what you guys are talking about, but I'm referring to Ryanair blocking the first 4 rows for weight & balance reasons. Believe me, these 24 seats out of 189 may be empty anywhere in the airplane and you will still be within the limits for an acceptable CoG. Unless the load-master has done everything opposite to the loading instruction with possible cargo, your weight & balance will be just fine. How do you think Ryanair did before this procedure came up???

Yes of course you will still be within the acceptable CG range if you block any 4 rows on the plane. The point with FR is: They know that blocking the first 4 rows gives them an advantage which blocking eg the last 4 rows wont. Simple as that.

You can also load any cargo aircraft with all the bulk in front, as long as you stay within CG range. No smart cargo operator would do that though. They would set the CG as far aft as is acceptable. Why? Well you know the answer.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 45):
Let's not even go there mate. Are you trying to compare a Piper to an airliner?? Yes, an aft CoG has a positive effect on fuel efficiency up to a certain extent but that's about it. The couple of hundred kilos you might save with an aft CoG on a 737-800 will not get you that much further.

"Couple of hundreds" is a number that'd make MOL go through the roof, furious about the associated costs. Talk about couple of tens and you might find people at FR who say that it's not worth the effort, but even then I doubt it.
We're not talking about any random 738 here, keep that in mind. We're talking about Ryanair, probably the most rediculous airline when it comes to saving costs and/or making money. You've got to give them credit: They're seriously serious about how to save money, and an aft CG change by a couple of centimeters will not stop them.


My (very knowledgable) POF teacher did a little calculation the other day. He's a pilot at AB and so he was able to compare current fuel prices with the jets he flies, namely the A330, of which AB has 14. Now, I'm not able to resketch the full mathematics behind it, but take this example: There is a fuel pump in the A330 which pumps the fuel from the center tanks to the vertical stabilizer within flight, thus keeping the CG at a constant aft setting. If this fuel pump was not installed on the A330, AB would face additional fuel costs of roundabout 8,000,000 € per year. Just suck up that number for a brief second, and think about what a tiny aft CG can do for a company like FR, ~300 aircraft.


[edit] You may be right that the 738 has no such systems which can adjust the CG inflight, I'm not in the knows. But it's not the point I'm trying to make.
As long as you have a good CG setup from the beginning, you're likely to be better off during cruise too. And even if those 4 rows save you only 100$ per flight, that's a heck load of money by the end of the year.

[Edited 2012-05-14 14:30:48]
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting smbukas (Reply 44):
In one flight the crew failed to find somebody to agree to sit here (it was about 140 passengers in the aircraft!!) so one member of the cabin crew sit in passenger seat in emergency row.

I guess I was thinking that someone in another row might get asked to do it - but I was overlooking the fact that he/she would be offered the seat as well so would have an enticement to say yes.
Fortune favours the brave
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1936
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: Ryanair Locking Rows 1 - 4

Mon May 14, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 10):
FR often cite weight and balance issues

The B737-800 is tail-heavy in an all-Y config, where I work we move pax forward in the cabin to get the weight and balance right, blocking off the first rows is the last thing we will do - we don't want the aircraft to tail-tip.

I agree with those posters who say that FR probably does this to save time when cleaning the cabin.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google Adsense [Bot], jambrain, PW100, rutankrd and 183 guests