BW424
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Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Mon May 14, 2012 9:16 pm

Greetings once again to all A.net patrons!!!

Welcome to the 98th instalment of the marathon Caribbean Aviation Thread. This thread is dedicated to terrestial and marine wonder of a country known as BELIZE. The country is located on the north eastern coast of Central America, bordered to the north by Mexico, south and west by Guatemala, and to the east by the Caribbean Sea. Belize is the native country of our very own venerable forum member, Yellowtail.


The motto Sub Umbra Floreo means "I Flourish in the Shade"

Belize has a diverse society, comprising many cultures and languages and it is the only nation in the region with a British colonial heritage but as a part of the Western Caribbean Zone, it also shares a common heritage with the Caribbean portions of other Central American countries. In general, Belize is considered to be a Central American nation with strong ties to both the Caribbean and Latin America. Belize is a member of the Caribbean Community (CARICOM), the Community of Latin American and Caribbean States (CELAC), and Sistema de la Integración Centroamericana (SICA).



Belize has a small, essentially private enterprise economy that is based primarily on agriculture, agro-based industry, and merchandising, with tourism and construction recently assuming greater importance. The National Flower of Belize is the Black Orchid and Belize's national bird is the Keel Billed Toucan. English remains the official language, but the most diverse language in Belize is Kriol (Belizean Creole). Other languages spoken include Garifuna, Mandarin, Spanish and Maya.


Keel Billed Toucan


Cayo


Orange Walk, Belize

Tropic air is the indigenous carrier of Belize. Founded in 1979 by John Greif III with a single airplane and two employees, Tropic has steadily grown to become the largest airline in Belize. The airline posesses a fleet of 9 C-208 Caravans, 2 Grippsland GA-8 Airvans and 1 C-172 Skyhawk. Tropic Air employs over 250 staff and offers over 180 daily scheduled flights throughout Belize and Guatemala.Tropic currently flies over 180 daily flights to 13 destinations in Belize and Guatemala, and took delivery of two new Cessna Caravans on November 15, 2011. This is one airline that appears to have a bright future through its methodical growth and passionate staff.






Philip S. W. Goldson International Airport.


*************News Feed***********
CAL's first B763 (9Y-LGW) in MEX and to be delivered within the next 7-10 days
Ex JM pilots empolyed with CAL subsidary, CARIBAL, to be transferred parent company
SLU government is reported to be looking into setting up a regional carrier with Intro Aviation of Austria
Rumours surrounding Redjet continues - BGI PM considering financial assistance
Rejet gets new CEO in former EU regional airline boss, Geoffrey O’Byrne White
Former CAL CEO Capt Brunton speaks out about the gross incompetencies of the Nicholas led BoD
First CAL ATR 72-600 in JM colors (9Y-TTG) rolls out the shop in TLS
LI's Ag. CEO Brian Challenger resigns. CFO Julie Reifer-Jones named interim replacement
CAL announces BGI as an intermediate stop 2x weekly to LGW, starting June 30, 2012
GORTT Finance Minister reports CAL loses $US52.8M in last year, just days after Nicholas' resignation
CAL's $US150M in cash reserves gone in less than 2 yrs under the Nicholas led BoD
CAL paying for ATRs from cash flow after current board drops ball on export financing
KX to start weekly GCM-DFW service with B733 starting June 23, 2012

**Insider** - Moonan led board to implement Lok Jack BoD recommendations upon their resignation

Happy Posting!

It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Mon May 14, 2012 9:51 pm

Thanks for getting the new thread up BW424, ive been to belize on a Royal Caribbean cruise I took in 2008. A really nice place with friendly people 
Quoting BW424 (Thread starter):

CAL's first B763 (9Y-LGW) in MEX and to be delivered within the next 7-10 days

Good to know it will reach POS soon

Quoting BW424 (Thread starter):
First CAL ATR 72-600 in JM colors (9Y-TTG) rolls out the shop in TLS

There have been discussions on this, do we know yet if it will be based at KIN or not?
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
guyanam
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Mon May 14, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):

Has it been established that the ATR will be delivered to CAL in the near future? Arent there payment issues?
 
andrefranca
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 12:26 am

Hey guys, thanks for the new tread! I hope Belize will be in my destination list in the beg. of march! 

We were talking about VENEZUELA-US market, from facebook page, dutch antilles express just announced the fares between these 2 markets!

2.538 VEF, that would be.... 590 USD? official market.

VLN-CUR-MIA

 
baje427
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 12:46 am

Good luck to CAL with the 767 I guess they could operate it on the GEO-JFK route and on peaks to POS-JFK and YYZ if LGW fails
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 2:12 am

Great thread ideas BW424! Thanks

One small amendment. Tropic Air Actually flies to San PEdro Sula, Honduras now....

And if you look in your last pic...jsut above the DL engine nacelle at the bottom there is a guy in a white shirt and black pants walking on the tarmac toward the tired poking air stairs....that is the venerable Rudy Coye who is an institution at BZE. He is so good at turning aircraft a team from Boeing came down in the 90s to see how he could turn a (TA) 762 in 20 min flat.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 3):
Hey guys, thanks for the new tread! I hope Belize will be in my destination list in the beg. of march!

GIve me a hail if you do!
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
BW424
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):
Thanks for getting the new thread up BW424, ive been to belize on a Royal Caribbean cruise I took in 2008. A really nice place with friendly people

Yes, natives of Belize are extremely friendly IMO. I have a few friends in MIA from there and they are some fun people to hang around.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 1):
There have been discussions on this, do we know yet if it will be based at KIN or not?

That's up in the air right now. Everything is rather dubious at the moment.

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 3):
We were talking about VENEZUELA-US market, from facebook page, dutch antilles express just announced the fares between these 2 markets!

2.538 VEF, that would be.... 590 USD? official market.

VLN-CUR-MIA

Good move for them to time it for high yielding traffic from VLN.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 5):
Great thread ideas BW424! Thanks

One small amendment. Tropic Air Actually flies to San PEdro Sula, Honduras now....

Your welcome Sir. My apologies for forgetting SAP. I wish the thread headers could be eternally "editable".
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 3:06 am

CAL considering flights to Panama
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/...__flights_to_Panama-151474905.html

Panamanian President Alberto Martinelli promised yesterday during his address at the Caribbean Investment Forum (CIF), Trinidad Hilton, St Ann's yesterday that his country's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) will allow the State-owned carrier a licence to fly into Panama.

He said it was reciprocity for Copa Airlines "Panama's national airline" flying directly into Trinidad, and will help strengthen ties between the countries.

"This will be a tremendous boost for Trinidad and Tobago as it will continue to fit into our vision of (becoming) a major transit hub for the Caribbean," Transport Minister Devant Maharaj commented after Martinelli's announcement.

Maharaj also attended the CIF at the Trinidad Hilton and later attended a meeting with the Panamanian delegation (headed by Martinelli), Caribbean Airlines chairman Rabindra Moonan and this country's CAA director general Ramesh Lutchmedial.

"CAL is more than up to (doing this route). The (airline's financial) troubles have to be taken into context in the business operations of CAL. They are not insurmountable and (this new route) will be part of the turning about process for CAL," Maharaj added.

He said the airline was in the process of realigning certain routes that were non-profitable. There may be other permutations, he said, because there are already flights from Trinidad to Miami, so it will be foreseeable to take a flight from Miami and redirect to Panama.

Contacted by the Express after the meeting, Moonan said during a telephone interview the airline will be pursuing the opportunity.

He said because CAL is a State enterprise, a note must be submitted to Cabinet for approval, and once it is approved, Memoranda of Understanding could be signed between CAL and Panama.

"What (Martinelli) said is that the deal is a fait accompli -- once the Cabinet note is accepted and CAL submits the application to the Panamanian CAA, it will be approved," he said.

Moonan said he has instructed CAL's management to fast-track the airline's feasibility studies, and depending on the results, the company will be able to make a decision relating to the Panama route.

"It will give CAL the opportunity to expand into profitable routes... The feasibility study will determine what (our course of action will be). All we have right now is an agreement in principle... I am not in a position to say when the routes could possibly begin," Moonan added.



Rowley: Competition with LIAT will create problems
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/...ill_create_problems-151474885.html

Opposition Leader Dr Keith Rowley has called on Government to return Caribbean Airlines Ltd (CAL) to the original business model at the time of its inception, and, among other things, to stop the airline from running a parallel service to compete with Leewards Islands Air Transport (LIAT) in and around the Caribbean.

Speaking at a news conference at the Opposition Leader office, in Port of Spain Rowley said yesterday CAL seeking to enter into competition with LIAT was doomed and is bound to create problems with Caricom governments.

Noting that the plan of having LIAT run the Caribbean routes while CAL takes passengers out of the region, Rowley said the George Nicholas-led board upset this when it decided to buy ATR planes to run competition with LIAT.

"That has put LIAT into a very difficult position and you would have heard Caribbean prime ministers groaning and complaining about the behaviour of Trinidad and Tobago".

Rowley said after the experience of Caribbean Sun and Caribbean Star, CAL would do nothing different.

"As long as the (other) island Governments support LIAT in the way they have to, because LIAT is bringing tourists (to them) this competition is doomed to create problems," he said. He added that CAL to going to islands like St Lucia with five persons on a plane.

Rowley also said the London route, upon which CAL was about to embark, would also be unprofitable. He said this route was found to be financially unfeasible when BWIA existed. Since then the London route faces more cut-throat competition, lower loads, and CAL, unlike BWIA, is going to Gatwick, which is less attractive.

But perhaps the most ridiculous idea was to consider CAL flying to Mumbai, India, and South Africa. "Absolute madness. Stupidity bordering on malice," he said.

He added that he did not think Government knew what was the story of Air India or the smaller airlines in India. He said the one good thing about this idea is that it would never happen.

"And (thinking of) going to South Africa is even worse," he said.

*******************************************************************

I'm impressed with Mr. Rowley here. I must agree with everything said.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
BW424
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 4:02 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 7):
"CAL is more than up to (doing this route). The (airline's financial) troubles have to be taken into context in the business operations of CAL. They are not insurmountable and (this new route) will be part of the turning about process for CAL," Maharaj added.

He said the airline was in the process of realigning certain routes that were non-profitable. There may be other permutations, he said, because there are already flights from Trinidad to Miami, so it will be foreseeable to take a flight from Miami and redirect to Panama.

Contacted by the Express after the meeting, Moonan said during a telephone interview the airline will be pursuing the opportunity.

He said because CAL is a State enterprise, a note must be submitted to Cabinet for approval, and once it is approved, Memoranda of Understanding could be signed between CAL and Panama.

"What (Martinelli) said is that the deal is a fait accompli -- once the Cabinet note is accepted and CAL submits the application to the Panamanian CAA, it will be approved," he said.

Chairman might change, but the stupid public comments still continue. Redirect the MIA flight to PTY? LOL, this guy must be comfortable with his title as an idiot. I expect this PTY affair to fade away in similar fashion as DEL/BOM.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 7):
Rowley: Competition with LIAT will create problems

Very salient points by Dr. Rowley, though he has minute facts and opinions slightly off. But, the general viable concept is very present in his utterings.
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 6:11 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 2):
Has it been established that the ATR will be delivered to CAL in the near future? Arent there payment issues?

Yes there are payment problems. what I forgot to ask in my first post was whether or not they will be delivered. BW424 did say this though:

Quoting BW424 (Reply 6):

That's up in the air right now. Everything is rather dubious at the moment.

Honestly its really sad to see CAL in this state, I hope they can turn things around and if that includes severely reducing or close the KIN base, then so be it. The management needs to do things in the best interest of the airline.
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
andrefranca
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 12:32 pm

Quoting BW424 (Reply 8):
Very salient points by Dr. Rowley, though he has minute facts and opinions slightly off. But, the general viable concept is very present in his utterings.

I agree! we all know that LIAT is far from being a "descent" airline, but they're still there connecting the caribbean.... without LIAT, what options do we have?

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 9):
Honestly its really sad to see CAL in this state, I hope they can turn things around and if that includes severely reducing or close the KIN base, then so be it. The management needs to do things in the best interest of the airline.

It's better to be safe, than sorry.... and they must act fast.
 
A388
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 12:43 pm

Thanks for starting the new thread BW424. love the Toucan photo, very tropical!!! Regarding DAE, they will start flights to MIA in June as soon as their second MD80 arrives. A third F100 has already arrived but it hasn't started flying yet to my knowledge. In any case, the aircraft is still all-white with no airline titles yet and a temporary Dutch registration. I assume as long as the local registration is not given, the aircraft cannot fly but we'll wait and see.

As for Caribbean Airlines' situation, it is indeed really sad to see them go in this direction. As I have said before, I really hope they will keep the Air Jamaica colors for the coming year as I'm still dying to see it in person and want to photograph it.

A388
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 7):
CAL considering flights to Panama

The only reason the CM flight to POS works is because of the feed at PTY. It could not survive on O&D alone and IMHO there is not enough market for 2 carriers right now esp if BW will have to run a 738.

I was told by friends in the loop in CM that right now their POS flight major source markets are from SJO, BOG, LIM, SAL, GUA, HAV and if you can believe it...LAX in addition to the PTY traffic. it is about a 60/40 split right now with the 40 being PTY O&D. THey also mentioned to me that any BZE-PTY flight would definitely have to connect to POS as the PDEW is quite good between POS and BZE.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 2:09 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 3):
We were talking about VENEZUELA-US market, from facebook page, dutch antilles express just announced the fares between these 2 markets!

2.538 VEF, that would be.... 590 USD? official market.

VLN-CUR-MIA

DAE is trying to get some of CM's VLN-MIA market.
That fare is probably promotional

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 7):
Panamanian President Alberto Martinelli promised yesterday during his address at the Caribbean Investment Forum (CIF), Trinidad Hilton, St Ann's yesterday that his country's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) will allow the State-owned carrier a licence to fly into Panama.

He said it was reciprocity for Copa Airlines "Panama's national airline" flying directly into Trinidad, and will help strengthen ties between the countries.

"This will be a tremendous boost for Trinidad and Tobago as it will continue to fit into our vision of (becoming) a major transit hub for the Caribbean," Transport Minister Devant Maharaj commented after Martinelli's announcement.

Panama's president name is Ricardo not Alberto. However lots of Panamanians are going to like the Trini press got the presidents name wrong.
Martinelli is known to be almost always at odds with CM owners, without jeopardizing what CM does for Panama, it's quite likely our president would try to make comments now and then just to bother our airline owners.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 8):
I expect this PTY affair to fade away in similar fashion as DEL/BOM.

It'd probably fade away, but IMHO BW to PTY, be from POS or KIN, it's not as far fetched as POS-BOM, specially if BW gets to code-share w/CM to tap on the hub and offers a different schedule than CM PTY-POS/KIN-PTY flights.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 12):
I was told by friends in the loop in CM that right now their POS flight major source markets are from SJO, BOG, LIM, SAL, GUA, HAV and if you can believe it...LAX in addition to the PTY traffic. it is about a 60/40 split right now with the 40 being PTY O&D. THey also mentioned to me that any BZE-PTY flight would definitely have to connect to POS as the PDEW is quite good between POS and BZE

Worth to notice that part of CM POS O/D isn't really POS's but its made of passengers from GEO, PBM, GND, BGI..
I do expect CM to be studying the effect of non-POS O/D passengers and how to use those figures so to think about dedicated PTY-GEO/PBM/BGI flights someday.

RE: BW POS-CCS-KIN-IAH talk from last topic
UA IAH-CCS-IAH lowest fares October-December range between USD1272 and USD1752
So if BW was to try POS-CCS-KIN (quick stop, same aircraft/flight number change) -IAH and sell CCS-IAH economy lowest at half those fares, surely only the CCS-IAH-CCS segment would pay the whole POS-IAH-POS operation..

Am I the only here upset to see BW NOT taking advantage of CCS business opportunities?.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
guyanam
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting BW424 (Reply 8):

I was of the impression that MIA was agood yielding route for MIA. Also as much of the loads to PTY are intransits to other parts of LatAm what makes him think that CAL can compete with COPA. A better solution will be joint code where COPA feeds from the PTY end and CAL from the POS end. This will improve access for passengers originating in GEO and BGI.

COPA runs daily. CAL will not be able to do so therefore on a business heavy route even the most loyal T&T CAL FF miles person will be forcd on to COPA.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 13):

If BW does a POS CCS IAH route (dont see where the market is for KIN IAH as even JM never flew that) UA will quickly collapse airfares and that is the end of that. Again if it is a business route then high frequencies are needed. Broke CAL cannot afford speculative routes right now.

Indeed it will have to drop under performing routes with PHL the first to go. Stay tuned for others....maybe giving LIAT a break and dropping ATR/DH8 service to GND and SLU. After all there doesnt seem to be a likelihood of 9 ATRs....NAS might also go. No ATRs for the KIN base....that is my prediction...as a reduced order will need to be focused on the TAB service, plus flights to BGI and CCS. I guess once the busy summer s eason is over they ill look at forward bookings to determine the futiure of their Jcan operations.

Bottom line is if a route doesnt provided IMMEDIATE positive cash flow it wil be dropped as CAL consolidates. Dont be surprised if some 738s are sent home.
 
GUYAIR707
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 9:31 pm

Great thread opener 424, Belize looks fantastic!!! Thanks for the new thread.

GUYAIR707
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 13):
I do expect CM to be studying the effect of non-POS O/D passengers and how to use those figures so to think about dedicated PTY-GEO/PBM/BGI flights someday.

They already are my friend.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 14):
UA will quickly collapse airfares and that is the end of that. Again if it is a business route then high frequencies are needed. Broke CAL cannot afford speculative routes right now.

UA will not quickly collapse airfares if they have a n/s and CAL is one-stop.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
guyanam
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Tue May 15, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 16):

A lot of ifs and buts. Surely quite speculative for an airline which seems unable to pay for planes that it ordered almost two years ago.

Do a survey in Belize and ask how many people know or care about Caribbean Airlines. If it has a low profile there, imagine elsewhere in LatAm. And I dont mean among aviation/travel types who know more than the average.


Here we have Jcans who reject BW and you expect Venezuelans (few of whom have any ties to Trinidad) to come galloping to BW when it means a detour east to fly north?

When BW gets its act together then maybe all these fantasy ideas about IAH and GRU might make sense as might building BW into a major brand in CCS.

Right now they have ageing dash 8s and cant afford to pay for ATRs that are needed to service their short haul routes.

So with all of this and that cash guzzling hole that KIN has proven to be (I note that no one seems to challenge this afct any more), BW cannot afford to start soimething that might or might not work and will require huge expense to develop brand awareness among people who, not only have never heard of them, but already have access to other carriers.

Given that BW runs atight ship with high a/c utlization it will mean acquiring more planes to fly a new route. Incurring more lease expenses. Just not a good idea right now.

LGW who knows. We wish them the best but that will be a challenge.



The only new route that might have potential is into DC (either IAD or BWI). Decent sized Caribbean population, decent amount of official business by govt execs and intl agency types. This market is very poorly served to the southern Cbn. I will sooner back IAD/BWI than IAH.


Yes BW can improve its connectivity between its CCS routes and its other services to MIA/FLL/JFK/YYZ/and LGW. This way they will not incur high expenses to develop a route and acuire planes. If some are interested they use already existing servics with some schedule adjustments on the CCS route...maybe with 738s on select days if traffic justifies this. It cannot do more than this.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 17):
Do a survey in Belize and ask how many people know or care about Caribbean Airlines. If it has a low profile there, imagine elsewhere in LatAm

I did....for a proposal to BW    as a matter of fact.

Actually CAL name recognition among those that matter (Business community, Gov't etc ) is very high...as the vast majority travel to the E. Caribbean on a very regular (AA coffer filling) basis.

Do not underestimate the business that is conducted in T&T..everything from PET containers for Coca Cola to uniform wholesalers
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 am

CAL's first 767 has finally been caught in a proper photo.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sergio Mota - Aviation Photography of Mexico

You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
hausauflennon
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 19):
CAL's first 767 has finally been caught in a proper photo.

Looking quite sharp as well. Glad to see her out and about, cannot wait to see her in BGI. I still remain unsure of how successful BW will be on this route, with BA's continued dominance in POS and more over in BGI, with VS as well.
 
GUYAIR707
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 3:38 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 19):

What a beaut. Shame about the winglets not having the hummingbird wings, hopefully will be added before she goes into service. Just to make her complete.

I hope the service is successful and I hope to see her on JFK-GEO one day.

GUYAIR707
 
BW424
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 5:44 am

Well, here's what is suppose to 9Y-LGW doing testing in MEX


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sergio Mota - Aviation Photography of Mexico



****My apologies.....didn't see LimaFoxTango's post of the aircraft. GUYAIR707, I believe the finishing touches will be done in POS from what I've heard.

[Edited 2012-05-15 22:48:44]
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 19):
Quoting BW424 (Reply 22):

Glad to finally see a photo of it on a.net! 
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
A388
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 19):
CAL's first 767 has finally been caught in a proper photo.

Wow, nice livery!!! I hope I will see it one day.

A388
 
beeweel15
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 23):
Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 19):
Quoting BW424 (Reply 22):

Glad to finally see a photo of it on a.net!

Nice to see it now I hope after these two they get some factory fresh 787-800's and 737Max aircraft
 
baje427
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 25):

They will need to get their finances sorted out first since they cant even get the other ATR's which they ordered.
 
A388
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting baje427 (Reply 26):
They will need to get their finances sorted out first since they cant even get the other ATR's which they ordered.

That is precisely what I wanted to say too. Caribbean Airlines can dream about adding more aircraft to their fleet, let alone brandnew ones seeing their current financial state. It's real sad and I still hope things will turn around for the better for Caribbean Airlines and their Air Jamaica division as well. I love both liveries and haven't seen the Air Jamaica livery yet  

A388
 
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 19):

Wonder if they will paint the winglets its sad to say but I cant see CAL making it much longer with its current management structure the Trinidadians have money but I cant see the electorate accepting another BWIA type scenario. Question why does CAL not send the ATR's to BGI?
 
guyanam
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting baje427 (Reply 28):

What the T&T electorate will demand is an end to the KIN base if it continues to be a cash flow drain. They definitely will not endorse support of routes which do not benefit them. Indeed its likely that few Trinis endorsed the acquisition of these routes in the first place, given JMs loss making history and the intense competition on these routes.

Reports are that BW is doing as few as 5 pax to SLU on some days. I also predict that the ATRs, once they arrive and replace the DH8s, will serve only CCS BGI and TAB. Nothing for KIN. GND will be serviced on the JFK and YYZ with the ATR service being withdrawn, due to TAB having priority need. If the POS BGI GEO round robin flight has low loads that too will be axed. CAL will have to come to some accommodation with LIAT, though this will definitely NOT includ the extension of the fuel subsidy to that airline as many E/C govts seem to be clamoring for (indirectly as they havent asked for it outright).

The Aviation minister is clearly out to save his skin and so, in addition to assigning blame (fair or unfair.....lies against the previous management.., will need to chop those losses before goiung cap in hand for a bailout to allow the acquisition of at least 2 more ATRs.

Reality is that the Jca govt doesnt give two figs for CAL, using them as a vehicle to shut down JM w/o politicam implications. They have acheived those goals. Airlift into KIN will be quickly replaced. This summer BW will ahve less than 50% of teh airlift between KIN and North Am. Not that long ago JM had a virtual monopoly except to MIA.

Sorry no fantasy routes to India and Africa and even speculative routes to Latin Am and the USA are off the cards...at least until the KIN is resoved, one way or the other. The days of fantasy ended when Nicholas was fired. PTY is a no go.
 
GUYAIR707
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 8:46 pm

EZjet says on their Facebook page they are aiming to start GEO-YYZ on June 28.

GUYAIR707
 
guyanam
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 30):

Trouble for CAL (at least until EZJet goes belly up) as those Canadian Guyanese are especially hostile to CAL and Piarco and will jump on a donkey cart if it offered nonstops. Too mnay 20 year old XM rum bottles seized at Piarco.
 
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting BW424 (Reply 22):
Well, here's what is suppose to 9Y-LGW doing testing in MEX

Great pic and nice to see in the CAL livery .
 
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 31):
Trouble for CAL (at least until EZJet goes belly up) as those Canadian Guyanese are especially hostile to CAL and Piarco and will jump on a donkey cart if it offered nonstops.

Not to be blunt, but you always say the guyanese are hostile to BW.....if they are so hostile why don't the fly DL for example? All bark and no bite IMHO.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
guyanam
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 33):


In case you dont know they do fly DL which had heavy loads, despite offering no inflight meals, higher fares and a less liberal baggage allowance than BW. And reporttedly the most shabby plane sin their fleet. If DL offered more seats they could be filled, or at least before EZJet arrived on the scene.

Think about why some no name charter cfompany is bold enough to think they can survive unless they knew that the marketplace had little brand loyalty and would be ready to jump. So neither BW nor DL draw rave reviews.


Why dont you google kaieteurnews and see the many adverse comments made by the many letter writers, the former minister of tourism and the former president.?


Top
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 34):
Think about why some no name charter cfompany is bold enough to think they can survive unless they knew that the marketplace had little brand loyalty and would be ready to jump.

Well I have seen many dreamers come and go. Everyone (including some smart folks) thinks they can run an airline. Ignorance is bliss.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 34):
Clearly some one must be using them and the loads must be high enough

High enough, yes...but not

Quoting guyanam (Reply 34):
heavy loads

They got room for unhappy guyanese!
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
guyanam
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 35):

Look at it this way. Guyanese have suffered at the hands of these dreamers yet their dissatisfaction with DL and BW give yet others hope that they will one day succeed. What does them in isnt the lack of support, but its their low yields and high opertating costs.

BW must lose cash wetleasing a767 to guarantee that they can offer them same 66lbs (2 bags), comparable fares and a NONSTOP to GEO.They know that if excess nonstop capacity exists on the route folks will flock to the nonstops.

DL must cut fares and re-arrange its schedule sto offer more week end service.DL offering fares just over $400 R/T is unheard of but that is what they had to do recently.

Clearly there is little loyalty and both BW and DL know this, or why will they have to dilute the revenues to respond to ano name carrier which most likely will go belly up before year end.

If there was brand loyalty on the JFK GEO then the existing carriers will ignore the fly by nite and wait for its demise. They dont as they know there is little loyalty.
 
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 36):
If there was brand loyalty on the JFK GEO then the existing carriers will ignore the fly by nite and wait for its demise. They dont as they know there is little loyalty.

Too bad B6s 320 can't make it....but alas the Guyanese (if what you say is true) would probably be upset that they don't get LiveTV the whole way and return to BW 
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
GUYAIR707
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Wed May 16, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 37):
Too bad B6s 320 can't make it....but alas the Guyanese (if what you say is true) would probably be upset that they don't get LiveTV the whole way and return to BW

While I find your discussion with Guyanam entertaining, I don't see what part of his discussion brought you to this opinion. I find your slur uncouth and offensive. Stereotyping is not easy to distinguish and should have no place in civilized conversation.

GUYAIR707
 
BW424
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 3:23 am

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 15):
Great thread opener 424, Belize looks fantastic!!! Thanks for the new thread.

Your most welcome. I have to make my way down there sometime.........it just looks like to much fun from what I've heard.

Quoting baje427 (Reply 28):
Wonder if they will paint the winglets its sad to say but I cant see CAL making it much longer with its current management structure the Trinidadians have money but I cant see the electorate accepting another BWIA type scenario

Things at CAL are woefully bad at this point in time. As Lok Jack put it, the airline is experiencing a severe "executive crisis". There's unconfirmed talk about new chairman Moonan getting an Audi Q7 SUV at the expense of CAL. Don't know how true it is as the source can sensationalize at times. However, if it is true, then that tells you the priorities of these people; Q7 and PTY route in the middle of an impending colossal business failure.

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 38):
While I find your discussion with Guyanam entertaining, I don't see what part of his discussion brought you to this opinion. I find your slur uncouth and offensive. Stereotyping is not easy to distinguish and should have no place in civilized conversation.

Sorry GUYAIR707, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Not to open a can of worms, but your fellow countryman has been doing the same for ages on this thread when commenting on Trinidadians and Bajans in a much more brash, callous and vehement manner. And if you think I'm exaggerating, just take some time to go through the last dozen or so threads. That said, I do not believe you should take offence to a light-hearted and cheeky comment made by Yellowtail who I'm certain didn't have any latent sinister motives. If you raise a red flag about stereotyping and slander, then it should be raised for all instances, not only when it might apply to you.

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 25):
Nice to see it now I hope after these two they get some factory fresh 787-800's and 737Max aircraft

That's a joke, right?
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 3:36 am

"CARIBBEAN AIRLINES APPOINTS CLIVE FORBES AS NEW JAMAICA GENERAL MANAGER"

"Caribbean Airlines today announces the appointment of Mr. Clive Forbes as General Manager with responsibility for the airline%u2019s Jamaican operations.

Forbes comes to Caribbean Airlines with an extensive background in general management, business development, sales, marketing and operations having worked for many years at several large Jamaican and Caribbean based corporations in the fields of telecommunications, food & beverage and transportation (maritime), including his latest post as General Manager of The Caribbean Shipping Association."

http://www.caribbean-airlines.com/in...p/media/news-releases/recent-posts

Don't know anything about this guy, but let's up he does some good   
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
beeweel15
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting BW424 (Reply 39):
Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 25):
Nice to see it now I hope after these two they get some factory fresh 787-800's and 737Max aircraft

That's a joke, right?

No it is not a joke. I am damn serious and think that this mess needs to be cleaned up. If I had the job it would be done by christmas.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting baje427 (Reply 28):

If RD gets money from the GOB do you think it will be an issue in the up coming election?

Quoting BW424 (Reply 39):

Thanks for putting up the new thread we are inching closer to thread 100 who would have thunk LOL!


I must say that Dr Rowley's comments on LIAT and Caribbean Airlines seemed quite sensible. IMHO while it would be great for BW and LIAT to work together I think that LIAT should take a leaf out of BW book 2007-10/2010 in terms of getting its house in order. His comments re London are a bit harsh but I think there may be some validity to them. Hopefully all works out.

Regards
BWIA 772
Eagles Soar!
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 41):

Well I personally think it is wonderful that you do not have the job of cleaning up BW. You do know that those things are going to be expensive to lease right...

Regards
BWIA 772
Eagles Soar!
 
GUYAIR707
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting BW424 (Reply 39):
Sorry GUYAIR707, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Not to open a can of worms, but your fellow countryman has been doing the same for ages on this thread when commenting on Trinidadians and Bajans in a much more brash, callous and vehement manner. And if you think I'm exaggerating, just take some time to go through the last dozen or so threads. That said, I do not believe you should take offence to a light-hearted and cheeky comment made by Yellowtail who I'm certain didn't have any latent sinister motives. If you raise a red flag about stereotyping and slander, then it should be raised for all instances, not only when it might apply to you.

Let me say that I am not defending whatever anyone else says on this thread, I am commenting on what was said as a Guyanese. No stereotyping is acceptable. That said I will comment no further on this.

GUYAIR707
 
BW424
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 44):
Let me say that I am not defending whatever anyone else says on this thread, I am commenting on what was said as a Guyanese. No stereotyping is acceptable.

That's my point. One does not have to be part of the group in question to identify stereotypical comments/ behavior. Not when it hits home (in its most innocuous of fashions) should one look to call foul. But anyway, we can agree to disagree on the issue. I too will not comment further on the topic.

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 42):
Thanks for putting up the new thread we are inching closer to thread 100 who would have thunk LOL

Your welcome. Yes, that iconic 100th is near-by. Thanks to thread veterans such as yourself and the sporadic stream of new regular contributors.
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
A388
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 41):
No it is not a joke. I am damn serious and think that this mess needs to be cleaned up. If I had the job it would be done by christmas.

You said it right, the mess needs to be cleaned up first. Good luck in getting this all done by Christmas. I don't think you realize how much has to be done to get Caribbean Airlines back on track again. It will take more than 7 months to get things running again to break even, let alone make a (small) profit.

A388
 
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yellowtail
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 38):
Stereotyping is not easy to distinguish and should have no place in civilized conversation.

Actually I was trying to make a counterpoint point to a guyanam argument that Guyanese people dislike BW and are treated badly by BW, Trini's etc etc and....I was being facetious an apologize if took it in anyway other than the spirit for which the debate was meant.

I was trying to point out that I didn't buy his argument that BW treats all Guayanese badly. See example below.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 31):
Canadian Guyanese are especially hostile to CAL and Piarco and will jump on a donkey cart if it offered nonstops.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
N202PA
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 2:52 pm

It seems like the concept of an all-Caribbean airline is too farfetched to actually be a success in reality. Too many countries with their own agendas, not enough vision to see that unity against Americans, Europeans etc. is to the benefit of all rather than the detriment.

Would giving up CAL by spinning off Air Jamaica and starting a T&T-only airline (ie, new BWee, Trinidair, etc.) actually work? Would anyone be in favor of such a thing in T&T? Or is the choice going to be CAL vs. domination of the market by American airlines?
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Sub Umbra Floreo - Caribbean Aviation Thread 98

Thu May 17, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting N202PA (Reply 48):
Would giving up CAL by spinning off Air Jamaica and starting a T&T-only airline (ie, new BWee, Trinidair, etc.) actually work? Would anyone be in favor of such a thing in T&T? Or is the choice going to be CAL vs. domination of the market by American airlines?

After the rollercoaster that Air Jamaica and BWIA/Caribbean operations have been for years, not sure if any private group would venture to run a new Air Jamaica (its name may be its major asset) or a "TrinidAir" with the current level of government interference.
Maybe there could be people, not only on Trinidad but also on Barbados and in Guyana who may like the idea of having its own airline.
I'm not on CM's payroll.

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