LIPZ
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SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 10:12 am

Just announced by SIA.

ATH and AUH will be suspended by the end of Oct.

Very sad to see Athens loosing another international carrier.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/news/2012...o-athens-abu-dhabi-on-weak-demand/
 
docpepz
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 10:18 am

Will the JED flight go via DXB then?
 
kl911
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 10:24 am

ATH is no surprise seen the economic collapse of that country. Looking at it that way I wonder how long service to Italy and Spain will last. They need the front occupied, and thats hard with an economy in shatters.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 10:39 am

Athens cant be a shock to anyone. I would not be surprised to hear of more airlines at least changing to seasonal service in the future.
 
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RWA380
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
Athens cant be a shock to anyone. I would not be surprised to hear of more airlines at least changing to seasonal service in the future

So will ATH finally bottom out and those carriers that stuck with it will reap the rewards once the economy rebounds, or will ATH end up like a ULCC hub for an airline or two, with a few European carriers flying there mostly for connections onward?
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OA260
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 10:53 am

SQ had announced that they were going back to the tag ATH-IST-SIN from the Winter timetable but loads were very light on the ATH-IST sector so I guess it doesnt make sense.

The Gulf carriers have the business these days at ATH . There is not enough bums to fill seats in the current climate so I guess only the fittest survive.

Trends at ATH have changed and some airlines are doing well and some have seen large drops.

Sad to see SQ go but not a surprise to anyone. Maybe they will return in future or on a seasonal basis like many carriers do . ATH is seasonal for longhaul.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 11:20 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
ATH is no surprise seen the economic collapse of that country. Looking at it that way I wonder how long service to Italy and Spain will last. They need the front occupied, and thats hard with an economy in shatters.

Somehow I dont think this route is failing because of the greek economy. As seen there is plenty of money in Greece, just not where the government can reach it...
Its more that the gulfcarriers have taken over the job of transporting greeks to the likes of Melbourne. Almost every gulfcarrier serves Athems these days and SQ cant beat them on price or serice or amount of destinations.

If SQ has to stop Rome it will be because they cant compete with the gulfcarriers not because the market has dried out.
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 11:25 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 6):
Its more that the gulfcarriers have taken over the job of transporting greeks to the likes of Melbourne. Almost every gulfcarrier serves Athems these days and SQ cant beat them on price or serice or amount of destinations.

Indeed, I agree. Interesting this maybe a route where we see the gulf carriers doing to SQ, what SQ has done to QF/OA/BA etc out of Australia to ATH.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 11:25 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 6):
If SQ has to stop Rome

Rome may very well be the next one to get the axe. With 3 weekly frequencies in summer and just 2 in winter, and with CX recently announcing a reduction in HKGFCO service, things are likely not looking good there.
 
airbazar
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 11:31 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
ATH is no surprise seen the economic collapse of that country. Looking at it that way I wonder how long service to Italy and Spain will last. They need the front occupied, and thats hard with an economy in shatters.

Oh come one, Greece's economy is a drop in the bucket compared to Italy and Spain. Remember that the economic collapse is impacting primarily the public sector, not so much the private sector. It's the private sector that occupies the front cabin. I'd say that competition and fuel costs has greater impact on SQ's service than the local economy.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 6):
If SQ has to stop Rome it will be because they cant compete with the gulfcarriers not because the market has dried out.

   That too.
 
AngMoh
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 11:35 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 6):
Somehow I dont think this route is failing because of the greek economy. As seen there is plenty of money in Greece, just not where the government can reach it...
Its more that the gulfcarriers have taken over the job of transporting greeks to the likes of Melbourne. Almost every gulfcarrier serves Athems these days and SQ cant beat them on price or serice or amount of destinations.

If SQ has to stop Rome it will be because they cant compete with the gulfcarriers not because the market has dried out.

The volume going from ATH to Asia is just not there. TG also could not sustain this route on a daily basis. And with 2 flights a week, it is not sustainable. It is purely catering to tourist. The ME carriers can make it work, because apart from connections to SE Asia and Australia, they offer also connections to Middle East, India and Africa.

I think the capacity will be re-routed to CPH, going from 3 times per week possibly to 5 times per week. CPH loads are good (also a lot of leisure) and the ATH and CPH flights were both old 77Es, so the config was the same.
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 11:37 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
emember that the economic collapse is impacting primarily the public sector, not so much the private sector. It's the private sector that occupies the front cabin.

The problem with this is that Greece is a country which literally fits Margaret Thatcher's "nation of shopkeepers". I've read that the average private sector firm in Greece employs fewer than 15 people. SMEs are those that sit up front.
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brightcedars
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 11:40 am

Sure is. SQ has a premium public following in the UAE but it's hard to beat local airlines like EY and EK.

As for ATH, same thing here, the Gulf carriers have made their nest, don't all EK, EY and QR operate there regularly?

Unless SIN is your destination, you have little motivation to favor SQ over the others, and the market ATH-SIN can only be a slim one.
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LOT767SP-LPA
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 12:24 pm

There is still Central European market to fill by SQ like Prague or Warsaw.
 
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OA260
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting brightcedars (Reply 12):
As for ATH, same thing here, the Gulf carriers have made their nest, don't all EK, EY and QR operate there regularly?

Yes GF EK EY QR

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/SKATH/file-140.jpg
 
JU068
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 1:02 pm

Isn't Gulf Air dropping Athens as well?
 
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OA260
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 15):
Isn't Gulf Air dropping Athens as well?

Indeed my bad . GF dropped out in March . Pic was taken prior. They were weak in ATH compared to their other Gulf neighbours. GF seem to have dropped alot in recent years. They pulled out of DUB also then EY came in and cleaned up which GF failed on .

Out of ATH the Gulf carriers get alot of migrant workers from Asia which must keep them going.
 
airbazar
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 10):
The volume going from ATH to Asia is just not there. TG also could not sustain this route on a daily basis. And with 2 flights a week, it is not sustainable. It is purely catering to tourist. The ME carriers can make it work, because apart from connections to SE Asia and Australia, they offer also connections to Middle East, India and Africa.

Somehow I don't think there's a lot of traffic between Athens and Africa or between Athens and India, or even between Athens and the ME. However there is traffic between Athens and Australia as well as some of Asia and the Gulf hubs and airlines are far better positioned to handle this traffic than SIN or BKK. More importantly, ATH is a very long flight from SIN and with fuel costs as high as they are my guess is that it just doesn't addup anymore.
 
JU068
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
Indeed my bad . GF dropped out in March . Pic was taken prior. They were weak in ATH compared to their other Gulf neighbours. GF seem to have dropped alot in recent years. They pulled out of DUB also then EY came in and cleaned up which GF failed on .

Maybe you can confirm, but did Gulf Air operate their Embraers into Athens some time ago? I remember seeing them though I am not sure.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):

I know this might not mean much but the last two times I flew out of Athens I remember seeing a lot of passengers waiting for both Qatar's and Emirates' flights and they were Pakistani, Indians and Chinese. They must been at least in the hundreds in the non-Schengen part of the airport. Most of them seemed like tourists though.
 
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting LIPZ (Thread starter):
Very sad to see Athens loosing another international carrier.

Is this flight dropped or going seasonal? What long haul with ATH have this winter?

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
So will ATH finally bottom out and those carriers that stuck with it will reap the rewards once the economy rebounds,

When ATH recovers, airlines will re-enter the market. I suspect ATH will do better once the 787 is in mass production (lower cost per long-haul flight)

Quoting OA260 (Reply 14):
Yes GF EK EY QR

Nice photo! The EK widebody sticks out. But as you note:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
GF dropped out in March .

  GF just doesn't have the connections of TK, EK, QR, and EY. It isn't good to be #5 in a race where only the top 3 are able to make a profit or break even.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
Out of ATH the Gulf carriers get alot of migrant workers from Asia which must keep them going.

With the status of the economy, is there much demand in ATH for migrant workers?

Lightsaber
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lax777lr
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
So will ATH finally bottom out and those carriers that stuck with it will reap the rewards once the economy rebounds, or will ATH end up like a ULCC hub for an airline or two, with a few European carriers flying there mostly for connections onward?

Unfortunately I don't think any rewards will ever outweigh the bleeding for the foreseeable future in Athens..... ULCC is the only possibility for success...
 
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OA260
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 3:51 pm



I seem to remember they were deploying them but I dont recall seeing them at ATH .

Quoting ju068 (Reply 18):
Maybe you can confirm, but did Gulf Air operate their Embraers into Athens some time ago? I remember seeing them though I am not sure.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
When ATH recovers, airlines will re-enter the market. I suspect ATH will do better once the 787 is in mass production (lower cost per long-haul flight)
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
With the status of the economy, is there much demand in ATH for migrant workers?
Quoting lax777lr (Reply 20):
Unfortunately I don't think any rewards will ever outweigh the bleeding for the foreseeable future in Athens..... ULCC is the only possibility for success...

I see the majority staying and ATH still retains decent carriers like LH LX BA AF KL TK EK EY QR A3 OA etc... Many added flights over the last 18 months. BA have 4 flights a day now LHR-ATH the additional 0630 from LHR is a good sign too . A mix of A320s and B767s are used. With the thousands of Greeks that have left for other European capitals the trends of traffic will change. Ironically the exodus might increase some European traffic with people travelling back and forth.
 
JU068
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
I see the majority staying and ATH still retains decent carriers like LH LX BA AF KL TK EK EY QR A3 OA etc... Many added flights over the last 18 months.

You forgot JU 

All jokes aside they did increase the seat capacity from 750 to 924 weekly seats offered between Belgrade and Athens.
 
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting Docpepz (Reply 1):
Will the JED flight go via DXB then?

Came in to ask this. What will happen to the JED flights?
 
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OA260
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 22):
You forgot JU 

All jokes aside they did increase the seat capacity from 750 to 924 weekly seats offered between Belgrade and Athens.

Indeed .   lol... I chose the ones with the hubs   Except A3 and OA of course who are small point to point airlines with A3 more of a feeder to Star Alliance with some key EU routes.

Regarding SQ for those that want to go that direction there are decent connections VIA IST with TK or even A3 to IST and then pick up SQ. Its only a short hop to IST .

AIA also have a great incentive available to airlines on certain routes 15% if they maintain their services give or take 5% on the previous year and for new routes upto 50% discount on landing/parking fees.
 
BestWestern
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 4:17 pm

Foreign investment in greece has dried up totally i understand - companies are afraid to invest until the market settles.

These are the people who travel up-front on last minute tickets.

This, alongside a reduction in outbound tourism, and competition from the Gulf has killed this route for SQ.

Perhaps a market for Scoot in five years?
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 25):
Foreign investment in greece has dried up totally i understand - companies are afraid to invest until the market settles.

Companies are afraid to invest as there is too high of a tax/socialization risk. You are correct, if they are not investing, that kills last minute premium sales which routes live and die on.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 25):
This, alongside a reduction in outbound tourism, and competition from the Gulf has killed this route for SQ.

SQ also has too premium of a product for ATH in this economy. EK puts in a higher density J product that allows them to undercut SQ's pricing. Unfortunately some companies are having to scrutinize their travel budgets and it is amazing how much can be saved by dropping to a 'slightly less premium' J class product. In particular, if the company is willing to sign a contract committing to a minimum purchase over a time frame.

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LJ
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):

I see the majority staying and ATH still retains decent carriers like LH LX BA AF KL TK EK EY QR A3 OA etc... Many added flights over the last 18 months

Many also reduced like KL (reduced by 2 dailies during Summer and 1 daily during Winter), SN and TP (both will serve ATH only during Summers).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
With the status of the economy, is there much demand in ATH for migrant workers?

I think he means that Greek going abroad to work, not migrants coming into Greece to work.
 
peanuts
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 6:03 pm

The economics of Greece, in my view, have only expedited ATH's long term fate: becoming a spoke/feeder for only a few major carriers.

Olympic has lost out to the likes of TK and EK. ATH has lost out to IST. In general Greece/ATH have lost out to the major European carriers and hubs (include ME DXB/EK in that as well). As a result, ATH will have fewer long haul nonstop/direct choices. More travelers to and from Greece will just have to get used to flying through a hub first before arriving at destination.

[Edited 2012-05-16 11:05:41]
 
JU068
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 28):
Olympic has lost out to the likes of TK and EK.

I do not think we can even speak about Olympic as an important carrier. The Greek government made sure of that. I believe it was Aegean that could have developed Athens as a true hub. Unfortunately they didn't...

The problem with Athens is that until very recently the charges for airlines were crazy. They were charging around €200 for 40 mintes of jet bridges without aircondition. The parking and service fees were crazy as well. The managment did not help at all to the airline that were/are based there.
 
dash8pilot
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 7:19 pm

Although SQ will be missed.. A few airlines are acctually starting/ resuming operations to Athens.

1) Aegean Airlines to Beirut
2) Aegean Airlines to Tbilisi
3) Aegean Airlines to Prague
4) Air One to Venice
5) Cyprus Airlines to LHR
6) Easyjet to Berlin
7) LOT to Krakow
8) S7 to Moscow
 
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OA260
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 28):
Olympic has lost out to the likes of TK and EK. ATH has lost out to IST. In general Greece/ATH have lost out to the major European carriers and hubs (include ME DXB/EK in that as well).

ATH was only a minor transit mini hub in the old days of Olympic Airways when they operated from Hellinikon and only managed to offer all those longhaul routes due to government funding and over employment. It was never a contender to IST which cant be compared and also has a totally different set up/market. Its like comparing LUX to LHR .

Quoting peanuts (Reply 28):
As a result, ATH will have fewer long haul nonstop/direct choices. More travelers to and from Greece will just have to get used to flying through a hub first before arriving at destination.

Indeed but many choose the likes of LX LH TK BA etc... these days anyway including myself. We are well used to two flights to get from A to B . Not an issue really. As long as you have decent hubs to connect to East and West then its enough. The luxury of direct flights to JFK ,BOS,JNB,SYD,MEL is a luxury no longer needed or warranted.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 29):
I do not think we can even speak about Olympic as an important carrier. The Greek government made sure of that.

Indeed its an important Domestic carrier and has a few key Balkan and Middle East routes. They need to stick to what they do best and stay small.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 29):
I believe it was Aegean that could have developed Athens as a true hub. Unfortunately they didn't...

No not even in the good days could A3 be that . Its a pipe dream for reasons stated above. A3 is a ''regional'' member of the Star Alliance and supports the major hubs of FRA MUC LHR by means of a feed. They also have their own key routes and continue to grow but they will never be anything like a hub contender. They do have a very decent product and membership of Star has given them enhanced brand awareness.

Quoting dash8pilot (Reply 30):
Although SQ will be missed.. A few airlines are acctually starting/ resuming operations to Athens

Indeed like I said airlines will come airlines will go the major ones ( mostly EU ) will stay. They will tweak their schedules Summer and Winter as needed and thats the way it should be . AF/KL reduce flights BA increase theirs. Thats normal. Some are cutting their routes due to their own financial issues. ATH will hold its own people dont stop flying purely because a country is in economic crisis.
 
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
Rome may very well be the next one to get the axe. With 3 weekly frequencies in summer and just 2 in winter, and with CX recently announcing a reduction in HKGFCO service, things are likely not looking good there.

Holy cow I didn't realize that Rome had fallen to such spotty frequencies from Cathay and Singapore. I'm assuming CX uses the A343 and SQ uses their 772 SV serires aircraft on the route?

Well, at least if anything CX and SQ crew can have very nice and long layovers in Rome   Can't say as much for us EK crew in Rome  
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JU068
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting dash8pilot (Reply 30):
1) Aegean Airlines to Beirut
2) Aegean Airlines to Tbilisi
3) Aegean Airlines to Prague
4) Air One to Venice
5) Cyprus Airlines to LHR
6) Easyjet to Berlin
7) LOT to Krakow
8) S7 to Moscow

Not a new route but airBaltic had announced that they will be increasing Riga-Athens from 3 to 4 weekly flights. Also Cyprus Airways recently launched three daily flights from Athens to Thessaloniki.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
No not even in the good days could A3 be that . Its a pipe dream for reasons stated above. A3 is a ''regional'' member of the Star Alliance and supports the major hubs of FRA MUC LHR by means of a feed. They also have their own key routes and continue to grow but they will never be anything like a hub contender. They do have a very decent product and membership of Star has given them enhanced brand awareness.

Well I said that they could be based on the fact that Athens has a good geographical location and that they do operate out of a modern airport. The fact that some other players prefrered them to say a ''regional'' carrier is a different story.

Also, I fly a lot on Aegean and I have noticed that their on board product is quite mediocre now. I believe Olympic and Cyprus Airways offer a better flying experience than Aegean does. Besides the miles and connecting opportunities in Athens I do not see anything else they have to offer other airlines from the region do not.
 
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
ATH was only a minor transit mini hub in the old days of Olympic Airways

Athens was much more important before that. Athens was an important stopover between NW Europe and Asia for different major carriers, refueling being an important part of that.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
It was never a contender to IST which cant be compared and also has a totally different set up/market.

But if Greece had any vision decades ago, ATH could have played a more important role in that region of the world. IST's market may be different yet they, and TK, will still benefit from ATH's lack of vision.
 
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OA260
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 33):
Well I said that they could be based on the fact that Athens has a good geographical location and that they do operate out of a modern airport.

Location yes but one might argue so is BEG / OTP and SOF . The Balkans have changed. Old state run cash cows are dead now . Governments + Airlines = Disaster IMHO . They abuse them . One reason why Greece has two decent carriers these days is down to being private and not run like a social security dept.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 33):
Also, I fly a lot on Aegean and I have noticed that their on board product is quite mediocre now. I believe Olympic and Cyprus Airways offer a better flying experience than Aegean does. Besides the miles and connecting opportunities in Athens I do not see anything else they have to offer other airlines from the region do not.

A3 offers the same as most decent carriers in my opinion. OA offers better crew from my experience. For me as a A3 Gold card holder and loyal Star Alliance member they have the edge for me these days over OA. Sad but true. I will always choose OA on the ATH-IST and ATH-SKG runs just to keep my product knowledge up to date and because I love their product. A3 suits my travel patterns more due to the Star network and varied members.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 34):
Athens was much more important before that. Athens was an important stopover between NW Europe and Asia for different major carriers, refueling being an important part of that.

Yes in the 50s and 60s but hey in the 80s all the staff at OA looked back at the ''good old days''. Famous film stars all at ATH but you could say the same about SNN in Ireland. The world is a different place.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 34):
But if Greece had any vision decades ago, ATH could have played a more important role in that region of the world. IST's market may be different yet they, and TK, will still benefit from ATH's lack of vision.

Maybe who knows I personally dont think so for many reasons.IST is doing great I use it myself and its actually great that Greeks have such a hub only 50 mins flight away . ATH still has its airlines and routes with great access to the major hubs East and West. Id personally choose TK Via IST than LH Via FRA when flying longhaul into or out of ATH .
 
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lightsaber
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 9:52 pm

ATH needs to finish the connection to the port via rail. The best solution to aviation service is to grow demand.

The other is create a better impression in the news for tourism. Getting angry at the nations that are the #1 customers doesn't help...

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
Rome may very well be the next one to get the axe.

Interesting information. Thanks.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
the economic collapse is impacting primarily the public sector, not so much the private sector.

How? The public cuts are undermining the private sector too. People are hiding their money; that never helps demand. Also, if tourism is down, it is impacting most Greek private business.

http://www.businessweek.com/videos/2...-visitors-from-u-dot-k-dot-germany

Quoting ju068 (Reply 33):
Well I said that they could be based on the fact that Athens has a good geographical location and that they do operate out of a modern airport.

ATH would make a reasonable hub, but how clear are the taxes and laws? For business to invest, they need a 'known playing field.' Greece needs to enable a hub to form. I'm not seeing the business environment (including taxes) for that.

Lightsaber
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OA260
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Wed May 16, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):
ATH needs to finish the connection to the port via rail. The best solution to aviation service is to grow demand.

Its not needed. I take the Express bus from ATH to Piraeus port everytime I go back its quick , frequent ( 24 hours ) and only EUR5 .
 
ben175
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 12:05 am

I flew SIN-AUH in January and loads were quite low in J but almost full in Y. I guess yields must be quite bad too.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 2:37 am

I can't imagine how there hasn't been a significant drop in passenger numbers at Athens. Nor seeing the Greek government would I trust any numbers they publish since they are trying hard to improve imagine.

I was there last summer and I can tell you the islands look the exact same except even more people looked like they wanted cruises that went thru the islands and to avoid Athens at all costs. When I was in Athens I saw an amazingly different amount of tourists compared to previous s trips in the summer in Athens. I was there last august and almost every hotel was maybe 25 percent full at prime time summer season. The people working at the bar said it was the worst summer ever in Athens and the tourists were avoiding it and cruising thru the islands instead. I can't imagine this summer to be any better everyone still remembers all of the protests and news coverage in downtown Athens. I can't imagine anyone wants to invest in Athens some business traffic might be companies analyzing how to get assets out etc. The middle east airlines are part of the changing climate but Athens has to be more than that the country has no end to its problems in site and Athens has changed very quickly post olympics mostly downward unfortunately. Athens has become much less tourist friendly and dangerous I saw probably 10x more beggars actually desperate you could tell and trash was ridiculous all over the city as budget cuts and strikes were constant sad but true. I flew to Budapest afterwards and it looked Incredibly clean and affluent compared to Athens poverty is skyrocketing in athens I saw so many homeless old people it was sad and they looked ashamed and embarrassed not the usual. Very different than my previous visits Greece is not improving and I refuse to believe the airport hasn't suffered alot both coach and premium customers.
 
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pilotanthony
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 3:29 am

My mum worked for Olympic Airways/Airlines for 25 years in the London office for ticketing and reservations, i miss the old Olympic and the old Greece   Eleftherios Venizelos is my favorite airport!  
Anthony Paraschou
 
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lightsaber
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 4:34 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 37):
Its not needed. I take the Express bus from ATH to Piraeus port everytime I go back its quick , frequent ( 24 hours ) and only EUR5 .

Fair enough. I still think the rail will help tourism. Invest for growth or ...

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 39):
Very different than my previous visits Greece is not improving and I refuse to believe the airport hasn't suffered alot both coach and premium customers.

Thank you for the input. I look at the financial data, for air travel tends to follow the change in financial health, and I too cannot believe ATH isn't seeing a decline in traffic.

I'm very said to hear about the homeless... That is obviously tied to the high unemployment.  

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 38):
I flew SIN-AUH in January and loads were quite low in J but almost full in Y. I guess yields must be quite bad too

AUH really seems to be struggling too. That is SQ and AF in a short amount of time that have left.

EY must be taking most of the market that exists, especially the higher yielding traffic.
 
JU068
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 5:07 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
OA offers better crew from my experience.

Better catering as well, not to mention that OA's aircraft are in an incomparably better state than those of Aegean. Vast majority of their aircraft have their seats torn and the cabin looks worn out. The only advantage Aegean has is that it has in-flight entertainment. Anyway, they only put movies on their flights to Brussels, Paris and London.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
The Balkans have changed. Old state run cash cows are dead now .

I do not see how they have changed to be honest? Tarom, Jat Airways, Bulgaria Air, Croatia Airlines, Adria, Air B&H and Montenegro Airlines are still the same. The only regions which saw improvement are Greece and Turkey.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 37):
Its not needed. I take the Express bus from ATH to Piraeus port everytime I go back its quick , frequent ( 24 hours ) and only EUR5 .

It is quick if you do not end up in a traffic jam which are more than common in Athens, especially once you are in the city. The metro is the better alternative, it is almost the same price (€8) and it takes roughly 35 minutes to reach Syntagma. Not to mention that the buses tend to be dirty and quite old. I took the bus three times to the airport, and two of those times I almost missed the flight because of traffic jams and blocked roads.
Metro FTW.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 27):
I think he means that Greek going abroad to work, not migrants coming into Greece to work.

Thank you. I sit corrected.  
Quoting peanuts (Reply 34):
IST's market may be different yet they, and TK, will still benefit from ATH's lack of vision.

I would agree. If ATH had built a hub earlier and promoted it, they could have accelerated growth. Greece could use that level of jobs...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 35):
its actually great that Greeks have such a hub only 50 mins flight away .

But that means TK and not a Greece based airline is making the decisions, creating the jobs, building up the logistics business that always grows up around large airports, and having the information of where business is growing. The last is now information Greece outsources to TK, EK, and others.

If the hub were in Athens, instead of dropping flights, the Greek based airline would compete by discounting the transfer traffic. This is why high O&D hubs do not downsize as rapidly as other airports in downturns. A well run hub can ride out a drop in O&D traffic until the growth phase returns.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
klwright69
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 7:04 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 42):
Quoting Ben175 (Reply 38):
I flew SIN-AUH in January and loads were quite low in J but almost full in Y. I guess yields must be quite bad too

AUH really seems to be struggling too. That is SQ and AF in a short amount of time that have left.

Yes, most here seem to only talk about ATH.

The dropping off AUH is also interesting.. The shows that EY is really stomping on the competition in AUH, leaving only room for the largest players. AF had not even been in AUH for very long.
 
LJ
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 8:54 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 41):
Thank you for the input. I look at the financial data, for air travel tends to follow the change in financial health, and I too cannot believe ATH isn't seeing a decline in traffic.

ATH passenger figures are still dropping (even after terrible figures of last year). Total passenger traffic dropped 11.1% Q1 2012 (international traffic dropped 15%). The figures for domestic traffic drop less, but the decline in Q1 2011 was already more than 20%....
 
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OA260
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 10:18 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 43):
It is quick if you do not end up in a traffic jam which are more than common in Athens, especially once you are in the city. The metro is the better alternative, it is almost the same price (€8) and it takes roughly 35 minutes to reach Syntagma. Not to mention that the buses tend to be dirty and quite old. I took the bus three times to the airport, and two of those times I almost missed the flight because of traffic jams and blocked roads.

For Athens one would take the metro as it makes sense. For Piraeus the express bus is the way to go and Im never caught in traffic jams on that route. Buses are not in bad condition compared to the rest of Europe. They are efficient and clean. Ive taken the bus 8 times in the last 6 months its still a very good service IMHO.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
I would agree. If ATH had built a hub earlier and promoted it, they could have accelerated growth. Greece could use that level of jobs...

Again lets not dream . ATH would never have been an IST . The best it would be is a mini hub.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
But that means TK and not a Greece based airline is making the decisions, creating the jobs,

One might say that TK does create jobs for Greeks as do any airline by means of employment for check in staff,baggage handlers,ticket office,catering etc....

In such an economic crisis ATH is weathering the storm quite well considering. All the major main players are still there.

Quoting LJ (Reply 46):
ATH passenger figures are still dropping (even after terrible figures of last year). Total passenger traffic dropped 11.1% Q1 2012 (international traffic dropped 15%). The figures for domestic traffic drop less, but the decline in Q1 2011 was already more than 20%....

Q1 is always historically a quiet period. Yes it may be quieter than usual but the real figures will be for June to Spetember where the busy tourist season starts. If that falls flat on its face then it will be more worrying.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 10:55 am

Delta is seasonal now to Athens. No us carrier is gonna fly to Athens year round I don't think

United has canceled its daily 767-400 flights this summer that is alot of seats to loose but probably great for deltas now seasonal service out of jfk. I hope united will return eventually and at least one us airline can go year round but I'm thinking that might be a while but I hope delta can fly daily year round again.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: SIA To Drop Athens, Abu Dhabi

Thu May 17, 2012 11:28 am

Not surprising that ATH Pax numbers are in freefall. Seemingly, the main thing that is driving demand currently are Greeks departing the country and EU politicians and bureaucrats coming and going over and over.

Tourism is struggling with all the protests and negative reporting this year and there is very little business demand to make routes viable.

As has been said, ATH is a ULCC paradise in these conditions but many others will struggle to make it work.