FlyHossD
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 5:54 pm

Reportedly, CO ALPA has authorized a strike vote and has forwarded that to UA ALPA. Is this true and does anyone know what the vote by the union council was (was it unanimous?)?

IIRC, CO ALPA has been negotiating for about 5 years (pre and post merger) and is 3.5 years past their amendable date. UA ALPA is about 2.5 past theirs (again, IIRC).

Quite a contrast to the DL tentative agreement reach ahead of schedule (see: Delta Reaches TA With Alpa 7 Months Early! (by OOer May 15 2012 in Civil Aviation))

After five years, I can understand the frustration. Didn't UA/CO Smisek promise Congress that the joint contracts would be done in 2010?

Are the union negotiations (with all work groups) holding up the rumored narrow body aircraft order?

I realize that this will devolve into yet another pro-union/anti-union hate-fest, but I thought it was relevant and didn't see another post about it here.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
UALFAson
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 6:19 pm

Haven't followed the specifics of the negotiations and vote but this is generally the rumor I have heard.

If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye. After 2000's summer of hell and the recent integration snafus, UA just doesn't have enough goodwill left to survive another crisis.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
codc10
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season,

Won't happen. Any action within the next 60-90 days would be illegal.

With the announcement of new pilot and F/A bases, plus DL's agreement with ALPA, the pilots are pulling out all the stops to force management's hand. We'll see what goes down.

A lot of this is posturing by the unions, expressing their displeasure over the pace of negotiations. The company clearly doesn't view the joint pilot contract as a priority item right now (they don't really need to) so it is questionable whether a deal will get done any time soon.
 
MaverickM11
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 2):
plus DL's agreement with ALPA

Between this and AA's progress with APA, where does that put UA's pilots?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
United1
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 6:31 pm

Has either group even been released from mediation?...I think UAALPA asked but I don't think it's been granted yet. If not this is simply symbolic.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
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kgaiflyer
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye. After 2000's summer of hell and the recent integration snafus, UA just doesn't have enough goodwill left to survive another crisis.

Oh gawd !

And I already have itineraries constructed through Jan 2013.

Time to dig out the old "Rapid-Rewards" card -- I guess I'm going to be using it.  
 
Rdh3e
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting flyhossd (Thread starter):
Didn't UA/CO Smisek promise Congress that the joint contracts would be done in 2010?

No I don't believe so. But he did say he wanted them to be done by the end of 2011, then came back and said he had set too aggresive of a goal.

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye. After 2000's summer of hell and the recent integration snafus, UA just doesn't have enough goodwill left to survive another crisis.

Errr yeah, with $8B in cash, even if it weren't illegal for them to strike, UA wouldn't need a liquidation. There would be a temporary furlough of pretty much everyone though. This type of action would hurt a lot of people, having the least impact on the exact people they are trying to torch and instead falling on every other work group at the company. There would be no sympathy from any other workgroup at the company if the pilots pulled that stunt.

2000 was also so long ago that most of the flying public probably has no idea what you're talking about.
 
LOWS
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye. After 2000's summer of hell and the recent integration snafus, UA just doesn't have enough goodwill left to survive another crisis.

Overly dramatic much?

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
2000 was also so long ago that most of the flying public probably has no idea what you're talking about.

  
 
codc10
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):


Between this and AA's progress with APA, where does that put UA's pilots?

Angry.
 
deltaflyertoo
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 6:58 pm

Wouldn't the gov't or can't the white house stop a strike? Remember back in 90s when AA pilots tried to strike and Clinton overruled it on grounds that the airline was too big then and it would have a detrimental impact on the US transport system? The new UA is a lot bigger than that. If I'm correct, doesn't seem like the pilots would have a lot of legs to stand on.
 
FlyHossD
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 9):
Wouldn't the gov't or can't the white house stop a strike? Remember back in 90s when AA pilots tried to strike and Clinton overruled it on grounds that the airline was too big then and it would have a detrimental impact on the US transport system? The new UA is a lot bigger than that. If I'm correct, doesn't seem like the pilots would have a lot of legs to stand on.

As I recall, the President can stop a strike, but only for a limited period (30 days?).

Quoting United1 (Reply 4):
Has either group even been released from mediation?...I think UAALPA asked but I don't think it's been granted yet. If not this is simply symbolic.

No, there hasn't been a release granted, yet. I think this step is just the first step in reaching a strike and it's symbolic, too.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
This type of action would hurt a lot of people, having the least impact on the exact people they are trying to torch and instead falling on every other work group at the company. There would be no sympathy from any other workgroup at the company if the pilots pulled that stunt.

I think the frustrations are so high, that the co-worker sympathy angle has been surpassed.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
mcg
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
2000 was also so long ago that most of the flying public probably has no idea what you're talking about.

I haven't forgotten.
 
tommy767
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 7:11 pm

It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

Honestly, I'm not surprised.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
blueflyer
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 2):
Won't happen. Any action within the next 60-90 days would be illegal.

When would be the earliest they can strike?

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 5):
And I already have itineraries constructed through Jan 2013.

I feel your pain. I really don't like AA (blame the mad dogs) but I may not have a choice, and with status match to boot...
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
Rdh3e
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 11):
I haven't forgotten.

And you're posting on AIRLINERS, which most of the flying public doesn't do. Clearly missing the point   
 
ordbosewr
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 13):
Quoting CODC10 (Reply 2):
Won't happen. Any action within the next 60-90 days would be illegal.

When would be the earliest they can strike?

As I understand it. The unions first have to be released from mediation, which has not happened.
Once that occurs they go into the cooling off period, which is required prior to any strike.

So we are x days + cooling off period. It will not happen before July/August at the earliest, but as others have said. The president can stop a strike under the a national emergency order. It is my understanding he can do it indefinitely. As United has hubs in major markets like NYC, Chicago, LA and San Fran the president is not going to let a strike happen in the summer. That would be bad in an election year, but he will not tip that hand as that would take the power away from the union which this president needs for his re-election. (Yes, his re-election will play a role in this if it drags into the fall.)

The action to take a strike vote is a union approach to negotiations. Depending on the results, which the union feels will be very strong to get the point they want to management. The union wants 95+% votes in favor of strike it sends the message to the company that they are aligned to the goals of the union negotiation. If the vote results in something less dramatic it could signal a faction in the union that the company can leverage in negotiations.
 
FlyHossD
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CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 15):
So we are x days + cooling off period. It will not happen before July/August at the earliest, but as others have said. The president can stop a strike under the a national emergency order. It is my understanding he can do it indefinitely.

From section 160 of the Railway Labor Act: "After the creation of such board and for thirty days after such board has made its report to the President, no change, except by agreement, shall be made by the parties to the controversy in the conditions out of which the dispute arose."

So if I'm reading that correctly, the President's "Emergency Board" can only stop a strike for 30 days after the board makes it's report (the President's Emergency Board must make it's report within 30 days of it's creation).

http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html

[Edited 2012-05-17 13:06:37]
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
codc10
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 15):
(Yes, his re-election will play a role in this if it drags into the fall.)

Bingo. The pilots want to make this a political issue, which is probably a wise strategy for them.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 16):
So if I'm reading that correctly, the President's "Emergency Board" can only stop a strike for 30 days after the board makes it's report (the President's Emergency Board must make it's report within 30 days of it's creation).

Once the President decides to convene the PEB, it starts a 60 day status quo period during which strike is illegal. Once the PEB makes its recommendations and these recommendations are reviewed by the President and the parties, another 30 day status quo period may be declared before self-help is legal. However, both parties may stipulate that the PEB be allowed more time to reach its recommendations, during which the 60 day period is tolled.

At any rate, it could be months before the process reaches self help. Keep in mind that all this discussion could be moot if the NMB refuses to release the parties from the bargaining table.
 
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par13del
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 15):
The president can stop a strike under the a national emergency order. It is my understanding he can do it indefinitely.

I would be shocked if there is something in the USA constitution that allowed a law / rule / regulation to be passed that allowed the president such power, I can see a cooling off period but not indefinate.

Unfortunately, there have not been many major strikes, so without those most management incentive to get things done is based on the current flow of money, US Air has not had their pilots integrated since their merger and so far the airline is making money so who cares? In their case congress should pass a law, if you function without a contract or under an expired contract for X number of months it becomes permamnent and the dispute goes away. How does one continue to work under an expired contract which is onerous, can't be that bad if you continue to function for years on end.
 
United1
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
How does one continue to work under an expired contract which is onerous, can't be that bad if you continue to function for years on end.

The contacts don't actually expire they simply become amendable on a certain date...

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
I would be shocked if there is something in the USA constitution that allowed a law / rule / regulation to be passed that allowed the president such power, I can see a cooling off period but not indefinate.

The president doesn't have that power...he can only stop it for 30 days...however congress has the power to intervene and impose a settlement..that's in article 1 section 8 of the constitutions commerce clause.

Lets say that the NMB released UA/CO tomorrow from mediation that automatically starts a 30 day cooling off period during which a presidential emergency board is convened and has to submit a report to the president within 30 days of the time the PEB starts working on effects, causes and solutions to end the stalemate. Upon the submission of the report a further 30 day cooling off period starts and once that has run its course, barring a presidential executive order, both sides are able to engage in self help (lockouts and strikes.)

In other words all that happened today was CO-ALPA is trying to give itself another bargaining lever with management...its always a gigantic game of chicken when it comes to management vs union negotiations.
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STT757
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):
It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

What I see is the unions ratcheting up the rhetoric to try to get themselves some leverage.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
FlyHossD
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 17):
Once the President decides to convene the PEB, it starts a 60 day status quo period during which strike is illegal. Once the PEB makes its recommendations and these recommendations are reviewed by the President and the parties, another 30 day status quo period may be declared before self-help is legal. However, both parties may stipulate that the PEB be allowed more time to reach its recommendations, during which the 60 day period is tolled.

Can you provide the statutory reference for that? From what I found today, it appears that the President can assemble an Emergency Board and then the Board has up to 30 days to report. From that time (when the report is issued), then another 30 days elapse before "self-help" can be implemented. IOW, that's a maximum of 60 days, not the 90 days you're suggesting.

If I'm overlooking something, please let me know; my reference is Section 160 of the Railway Labor Act:

§ 160. Emergency board

If a dispute between a carrier and its employees be not adjusted under the foregoing provisions of this chapter and should, in the judgment of the Mediation Board, threaten substantially to interrupt interstate commerce to a degree such as to deprive any section of the country of essential transportation service, the Mediation Board shall notify the President, who may thereupon, in his discretion, create a board to investigate and report respecting such dispute. Such board shall be composed of such number of persons as to the President may seem desirable: Provided, however, That no member appointed shall be pecuniarily or otherwise interested in any organization of employees or any carrier. The compensation of the members of any such board shall be fixed by the President. Such board shall be created separately in each instance and it shall investigate promptly the facts as to the dispute and make a report thereon to the President within thirty days from the date of its creation.

There is authorized to be appropriated such sums as may be necessary for the expenses of such board, including the compensation and the necessary traveling expenses and expenses actually incurred for subsistence, of the members of the board. All expenditures of the board shall be allowed and paid on the presentation of itemized vouchers therefor approved by the chairman.

After the creation of such board and for thirty days after such board has made its report to the President, no change, except by agreement, shall be made by the parties to the controversy in the conditions out of which the dispute arose.

(May 20, 1926, ch. 347, §10, 44 Stat. 586; June 21, 1934, ch. 691, § 7, 48 Stat. 1197.)

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 17):
At any rate, it could be months before the process reaches self help. Keep in mind that all this discussion could be moot if the NMB refuses to release the parties from the bargaining table.

  
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 10:51 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
What I see is the unions ratcheting up the rhetoric to try to get themselves some leverage.

I would agree, however it appears to be due to:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):

It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

CO ALPA has been negotiation for nearly 5 years, UA about 3.5, IIRC.

DL produces a T.A. 7 months ahead of schedule (was it just two or three months since the DL negotiations started?).

And USAirways reaches an agreement with APA in about a month.

So what would you expect CO and UA ALPA to do? Are you surprised?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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STT757
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 22):

CO ALPA has been negotiation for nearly 5 years, UA about 3.5, IIRC.

DL produces a T.A. 7 months ahead of schedule (was it just two or three months since the DL negotiations started?).

And USAirways reaches an agreement with APA in about a month.

So what would you expect CO and UA ALPA to do? Are you surprised

Make no mistake, what DL and US have done or is doing is irrelevant. What is being negotiated now between UA and it's unions will be the new industry standard one way or another. Whether that leans towards the Union position or the management position has yet to be determined.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ikramerica
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 11:12 pm

The reason all these (most) pilot negotiations have stretched on for years is because there is a fundamental disconnect in mindset.

Pilots believe their concessions of the past were temporary measures. They believe the deals of the past are only fair and actually deserve more, adjusted for inflation.

Management thinks the concessions were simply a first pass at returning to a more profitable contract after the overpayed contracts of the 90s born from low fuel. Managements want even further cuts.

These POVs are so far apart, coming to an agreement becomes nearly impossible.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
brilondon
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 15):
The president can stop a strike under the a national emergency order. It is my understanding he can do it indefinitely. As United has hubs in major markets like NYC, Chicago, LA and San Fran the president is not going to let a strike happen in the summer.

I don't see this as a national emergency with the other airlines in the U.S. to fly on. As well would they go into chapter 11 before they totally shut the doors?
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
United1
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 25):
I don't see this as a national emergency with the other airlines in the U.S. to fly on.

While there are other airlines UA (and DL) represent a huge portion of the capacity here in the US and of US carriers overseas. With loads being as high as they are right now no other airline is going to be able to absorb that many passengers. The resulting chaos would impact the US economy negatively (that does fall under national emergency category which is why the pres has certain powers he can exercise) and piss off voters during an election year...the Pres will almost certainly block any strike action by any airline this year.

That being said we are no where near a strike yet...they haven't even taken the strike vote yet that alone is probably a 30 day process.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
FlyHossD
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 24):
Pilots believe their concessions of the past were temporary measures.

As I recall, they were told by management that the concessions were indeed, temporary!

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 24):
These POVs are so far apart, coming to an agreement becomes nearly impossible.

Except at Delta. And Southwest. And US reaching a quick agreement with APA.  

Didn't AS reach an agreement with it's pilots recently, too?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
catiii
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):
It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

OR it's clear that this specific labor group's mindset isn't based in reality.  
 
B737900ER
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Thu May 17, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):

It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

Since the close of the merger UA has negotiated contracts with sCO and sUA mechanics and are well along with a joint contract, and has made progress with both F/A groups. Seems like more of a work group issue more than a management one.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 12:16 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 29):
Since the close of the merger UA has negotiated contracts with sCO and sUA mechanics and are well along with a joint contract, and has made progress with both F/A groups. Seems like more of a work group issue more than a management one.

As you acknowledge, not a single joint contract has been reached.

[Edited 2012-05-17 17:17:01]

Yet DL reached an agreement in just over 2 months, IIRC.

Not ONE joint contract at UA/CO, not with any workforce. No joint Flight Attendant contract, no joint Mechanic contract, no joint Dispatcher contract. More than two years have passed since the merger announcement and NOT a single joint contract has been reached. Each of these negotiations have one thing in common - the senior management.

I'd say UCH senior management has been stalling.


[Edited 2012-05-17 17:21:47]

[Edited 2012-05-17 17:23:41]
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
codc10
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 21):

Can you provide the statutory reference for that? From what I found today, it appears that the President can assemble an Emergency Board and then the Board has up to 30 days to report. From that time (when the report is issued), then another 30 days elapse before "self-help" can be implemented. IOW, that's a maximum of 60 days, not the 90 days you're suggesting.

The parties, by mutual agreement, can stipulate to extensions of time for the PEB to issue its recommendations. You might not find statutory authority for it but that's the reality of labor negotiations and law in general. At least one 30-day stip would be expected.

The President has the authority to issue a final 30 day status quo period after the PEB issues its recommendation. Theoretically, the process could go on a lot longer. A 60-90 timetable is very aggressive, as a matter of fact.
 
T5towbar
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 12):
It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

Honestly, I'm not surprised.
Quoting B737900ER (Reply 29):
It's clear when you read threads like this then you know upper management is being unresponsive.

Since the close of the merger UA has negotiated contracts with sCO and sUA mechanics and are well along with a joint contract, and has made progress with both F/A groups. Seems like more of a work group issue more than a management one.

It's not that simple. There are no contracts signed yet for ANY workgroup yet. And there is still a representation election to go with the Maintenance Instructors. We just came of of a hotly contested election with PCE.

Quoting catiii (Reply 28):
OR it's clear that this specific labor group's mindset isn't based in reality.

What reality? We ALL are trying to get deals done here.........no one wants to go backwards here.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
B737900ER
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 12:45 am

There have been contracts signed. The mechanics have signed two of them. The problem with most work groups is senority integration. Something management has no say in.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 33):
There have been contracts signed. The mechanics have signed two of them. The problem with most work groups is senority integration. Something management has no say in.

And yet not a single joint contract. NOT ONE. 2+ years beyond the merger announcement and no joint agreements with any unionized work group. Something that senior management has every say in.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
B737900ER
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 1:20 am

They do not. They have no say in how a work group integrates its members. You can't have a joint contract with two split work groups, hince the word joint. If you can realistically do this please tell us how.

Not only that contracts usually go years beyond their amendable dates in normal circumstances. Here you are basically starting from scratch. Everything from both former contracts need to be reviewed and discussed
 
NWAESC
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 1:51 am

Here's a flow chart that outlines the steps of collective bargaining, including when/how a PEB can come into play:


http://www.nmb.gov/publicinfo/collbarg2.pdf
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
FlyHossD
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 2:58 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 35):
They do not. They have no say in how a work group integrates its members. You can't have a joint contract with two split work groups, hince the word joint. If you can realistically do this please tell us how.

You seemed to have missed my point. Senior management has every say in completing a contract; I agree that it's generally up to the work groups to sort out the integration (often it's an arbitrated result). Note that nowhere in my post, did I reference the integration of seniority.

As I recall, in the case of the UA/CO pilots, a joint contract must be reached before the seniority list can be integrated (per their transition protocol). In other words, at least in the case of the UA/CO pilots, you're flat out wrong.

[Edited 2012-05-17 20:00:07]

[Edited 2012-05-17 20:01:16]
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 3:06 am

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 34):
And yet not a single joint contract. NOT ONE. 2+ years beyond the merger announcement and no joint agreements with any unionized work group. Something that senior management has every say in.

Senior Management has no say in our 'Mechanic's Negotiations' for a joint contract going on now. We have no joint contract because there is a issue of what was called at Legacy United, 'Consent Decree'. This will have a impact on seniority integration between the 2 work groups. We haven't settled that and/or our seniority integration. The negotiations are on hold until the 2 mechanic unions solve the 'Consent Decree' issue. Senior Management has nothing to do with this.
UNITED We Stand
 
01pewterz28
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 1:04 pm

Yes PM UAL ALPA have already requested to be released from NMB see MEC Chairman's comments below I do believe this will be 1985 all over again it will get messy. Seems this management is following in the foot steps of the past management PM UAL.

"April 30, 2012--Today, United MEC Chairman Captain Jay Heppner directed ALPA President Captain Lee Moak to formally submit the necessary paperwork to the National Mediation Board for our release from mediation. "We have every expectation that our formal request will be honored and, through the steps delineated under the RLA, that we will be ultimately released from mediation into a “30 day cooling off period,' " said Captain Heppner in a message to United pilots. "During this upcoming period, we are obligated to honor the status quo between ALPA and UAL management. There can be and will be no disruption by us of the company’s operations. At the end of this cooling off period, barring the successful negotiation of a Tentative Agreement with United Airlines, ALPA pilots will be free to exercise self-help."
 
tommy767
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 22):
So what would you expect CO and UA ALPA to do? Are you surprised?

Regardless this is not good press for United.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
UALFAson
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 6):
2000 was also so long ago that most of the flying public probably has no idea what you're talking about.

You might not remember it and the average Joe Schmoe might not remember it, but more importantly, plenty of frequent flyers and corporate travel professionals DO still remember it. It was horrible. United lost a lot of corporate travel contracts after that summer and they have never fully recovered.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 7):
Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye. After 2000's summer of hell and the recent integration snafus, UA just doesn't have enough goodwill left to survive another crisis.


Overly dramatic much?

No, I don't think so. Have you flown UA lately or read other message boards, FF websites, or even their FB page? It's bad out there, especially among the high-paying elite frequent flyers. Customer service, or, more accurately/importantly, the perceived lack of customer service, has taken a huge hit. Despite my screen name, I objectively have had almost nothing but positive experiences as a revenue customer on United and want nothing but the best for the airline. But right now, United is on thin ice and, in my opinion, cannot withstand a work action, or even the possibility of a work action, by an employee group. Without taking an opinion on the pilots' issues or whatever, my concern is that they're willing to cut off their nose to spite their face and take the whole airline down with them just to say "we won."
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
Rdh3e
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 41):
Without taking an opinion on the pilots' issues or whatever, my concern is that they're willing to cut off their nose to spite their face and take the whole airline down with them just to say "we won."

I hope you're wrong. I haven't been out on the line much lately, but it seems like things are starting to come around. Part of the problem is the constant change that all the employees are being put though, it seems like people feel they've lost their identity through all of this.
 
T5towbar
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 42):
I hope you're wrong. I haven't been out on the line much lately, but it seems like things are starting to come around. Part of the problem is the constant change that all the employees are being put though, it seems like people feel they've lost their identity through all of this.

I agree completely.
Change is difficult with new policies and procedures. Two completely cultures trying to mesh into one takes time.
IMHO, I don't think that management understands that fully. That should change once ALL workgroups have deals in place and the seniority lists put into place. Then everybody can move on.

I don't think that we'll have another repeat of the "Summer From Hell".
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
tommy767
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 43):
Change is difficult with new policies and procedures. Two completely cultures trying to mesh into one takes time.

The thing is that wasn't really an excuse for Delta/Northwest who really executed everything in a timely fashion and didn't blame the passenger for it's problems (and less bitching from employees.)

One thing that I would hope gets revised is the ex-COEX scope clause for 71 seaters. Such a BS rule.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
style
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 3:00 pm

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 1):
If either pilots group goes on strike, especially during the peak summer travel season, UA can go ahead and file for Chapter 7 liquidation and we can kiss the airline goodbye.

Overly Dramatic indeed. Is it me or do people get a kick out of making comments like this just for the dramatic effect?

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 34):
And yet not a single joint contract. NOT ONE. 2+ years beyond the merger announcement and no joint agreements with any unionized work group. Something that senior management has every say in.

Your 2+ year time frame is way off. You seem to forget a lot of these work groups had to have representation elections before even sitting down with the company for a single joint contract. The FA's and Ramp for example only decided late last year. The ticket agents just voted on representation two months ago. I would expect agreements to be signed by the end of this year, if that doesn't happen then I think we can start saying things are "dragging" on.

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 37):
You seemed to have missed my point. Senior management has every say in completing a contract;

50% true. Both management and the workgroup have to be willing to agree to a contract that works for both. If like you say, senior management had every say in completing a contract then there would be no need to negotiate. Takes two to tango.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 44):
The thing is that wasn't really an excuse for Delta/Northwest who really executed everything in a timely fashion and didn't blame the passenger for it's problems (and less bitching from employees.)

That was a buyout of Northwest by Delta. United/Continental is a merger. Two completely different animals.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 44):
One thing that I would hope gets revised is the ex-COEX scope clause for 71 seaters. Such a BS rule.

That is for the company and pilots to decide. Not a BS rule to many pilots.
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tommy767
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 46):
That was a buyout of Northwest by Delta. United/Continental is a merger. Two completely different animals.

It doesn't matter. They treated as a merger and they did it better.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 46):

That is for the company and pilots to decide. Not a BS rule to many pilots.

At Continental. The fact that COEX never got their hands on 170s and 190s PM is absolutely ridiculous.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
FlyHossD
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting Reply 45):
Your 2+ year time frame is way off. You seem to forget a lot of these work groups had to have representation elections before even sitting down with the company for a single joint contract. The FA's and Ramp for example only decided late last year. The ticket agents just voted on representation two months ago. I would expect agreements to be signed by the end of this year, if that doesn't happen then I think we can start saying things are "dragging" on.

My 2+ time frame was in reference to the time since the merger announcement - I even said so! In the case of the CO pilots, they've been negotiating for nearly 5 years, so yes, I'd say things are "dragging" on. The UA pilots have been negotiating for 3.5 years. My friends at both carriers are very frustrated and are expecting routine summer cancellations for lack of crew. One of the Chief Pilots told me (last month) that the staffing this summer will be worse than last summer and last summer, there were cancellations for lack of pilots. Given the deteriorating morale, this summer could be ugly (I hope I'm wrong).

Quoting Reply 45):
50% true. Both management and the workgroup have to be willing to agree to a contract that works for both. If like you say, senior management had every say in completing a contract then there would be no need to negotiate. Takes two to tango.

Yet DL has an agreement in two months and US reached an agreement with APA in about a month. I think it's clear that senior management isn't negotiating in good faith and thus, ALPA is using the only threat they have.

In any case, back to my original post, was the CO ALPA vote to authorize a strike vote unanimous? And is the labor situation delaying the rumored narrow-body order? Given the sales success of the 737MAX series (since Airbus is apparently out of the picture), I think UCH needs to get an order in - I expect fuel prices to continue to creep up.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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mayor
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RE: CO Alpa Authorizes A Strike Vote

Fri May 18, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 14):
And you're posting on AIRLINERS, which most of the flying public doesn't do. Clearly missing the point

A good portion of the flying public has forgotten what they had for breakfast.  
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 46):

That was a buyout of Northwest by Delta. United/Continental is a merger. Two completely different animals.

Please explain what the difference is? To me, whether "buyout" or "merger" if you're integrating two entities and using procedures and policies from both, then that is a "merger".
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen

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