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747classic
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A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 2:49 pm

Airbus is taking an extra €158 million charge linked to the costs associated with wing component cracking on its A380s with more costs excepted to come.

The latest charge covers repairs on 71 aircraft delivered and comes on top of a €105 million provision taken in March because of the same problem.

See : http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_05_16_2012_p0-457966.xml
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Stitch
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 3:03 pm

It's still pretty much peanuts.
 
babybus
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 3:06 pm

Well, it won't be Airbus that takes that hit. It will the company that produces the wings that have to pay up.

This wing crack subject is getting out of hand. And a bit boring.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
This wing crack subject is getting out of hand. And a bit boring.

Yeah, your right. Something that causes all the airlines to take their planes out of service for work a few extra days to a week for additional repairs and that has slowed the delivery of new A380's to way behind schedule is nothing more than a boring detail. I know Airbus is claiming that they can recover on the production schedule - but that is becoming harder to believe the longer this drags on.

Have a great day,
 
bigsmile
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
Well, it won't be Airbus that takes that hit. It will the company that produces the wings that have to pay up.

So that will be Airbus then that has to pay up, or has something changed in the past 24 hours that Airbus UK does not produce the wings anymore.
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
Well, it won't be Airbus that takes that hit.

As noted, Airbus UK assembles the wings, which explains why Airbus is taking a charge against earnings - the "hit".



Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
This wing crack subject is getting out of hand. And a bit boring.

There are a number of topics on this board that are getting out of hand and becoming boring.  
 
art
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
Well, it won't be Airbus that takes that hit. It will the company that produces the wings that have to pay up.

Suppose they are legally responsible. Am I right in thinking that the ribs were defective but were not produced by BAE? BAE may have a slight problem trying to get $100's millions compensation from their supplier - I imagine that having to find compensation of that order would bankrupt the supplier.
 
masseybrown
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
It's still pretty much peanuts.

It may not be the apocalypse; but when the charge ate up more than half of EADS' quarterly profits, it ain't peanuts either. On a percentage basis, it's much worse than the trading loss at JP Morgan.
 
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EPA001
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):

It's still pretty much peanuts.

It is. And Airbus always said that the current solution is an interim solution. So a final solution would always cost another amount of money. Considering the problem which they need to address the amount of money is almost negligible imho.  .

[Edited 2012-05-19 09:18:30]
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting art (Reply 6):
Am I right in thinking that the ribs were defective but were not produced by BAE?

I will admit up front I have not been following the issue closely, but I believe that the issue was not that the components were defective, but that their assembly process stressed them to the point that it either introduced cracks or allowed cracks to develop once the part was subjected to in-service loads.

As such, Airbus was re-evaluating the assembly process so that said stresses would not be imposed. And I believe they have found that new process - hence the additional costs as they put it into place.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 8):
And Airbus always said that the current solution is an interim solution.

Exactly, that's what I find even more newsworthy. It was reported on a German aviation forum but at that time I didn't understand it: each A 380 delivered now will get only a temporary fix and later on the "final" fix. The same for those airframes already in service.
 
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glideslope
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):

It's still pretty much peanuts.

Nah, Cashews bud. On the way to Brazil Nuts.   
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
art
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
I will admit up front I have not been following the issue closely, but I believe that the issue was not that the components were defective, but that their assembly process stressed them to the point that it either introduced cracks or allowed cracks to develop once the part was subjected to in-service loads.

As such, Airbus was re-evaluating the assembly process so that said stresses would not be imposed. And I believe they have found that new process - hence the additional costs as they put it into place.

Thanks for that. Kind of raises the question, though, why did it happen on the A380 if it didn't happen before on other Airbus aircraft? They all have wings with ribs, don't they?

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 10):
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 8):
And Airbus always said that the current solution is an interim solution.

Exactly, that's what I find even more newsworthy. It was reported on a German aviation forum but at that time I didn't understand it: each A 380 delivered now will get only a temporary fix and later on the "final" fix. The same for those airframes already in service.

The new wings that will be built until the "final fix" will have an "interim fix" and will need to be reworked? I can see that if it will take some time to implement the "final fix" Airbus cannot stop wing production until the "final fix" arrives. Sounds expensive, all the same.
 
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glideslope
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):

This wing crack subject is getting out of hand. And a bit boring.

Really? What do you define as troubling?   
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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N14AZ
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting art (Reply 13):
I can see that if it will take some time to implement the "final fix" Airbus cannot stop wing production until the "final fix" arrives.

Yes, this what happened. They stopped wings production (well, at least wings transportation to Toulouse) since end of March 2012. Middle / end of May 2012 Airbus commenced wings transports to Toulouse but at the same time they say the "final" / certified solution is not yet in place and will be only starting from end of 2012. Thus all the wings produced from now on until end of the year (at least 12 pairs) will require additional work after delivery to implement the "final fix".

I think this is why QR's CEO postponed delivery of their A 380s ("we don't want to let anybody crawl through our wings...") as reported in another thread.
 
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flylku
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sat May 19, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
It's still pretty much peanuts.

Really? What is the gross margin on an A380? I am sure it a fraction of the 150 million Euro charge so they have basically eaten the profit on several frames. That gets my attention.
...are we there yet?
 
A320FlyGuy
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 5:05 am

I know that there have been reams and reams written about this issue, but I have constantly felt that this issue might be a bellwether of further issues to come with the A380. Airbus and EADS have stated that this issue is not a structural or safety issue....but we aren't talking about cracks in the lavatory door....we're talking about cracks. in Wings.

No matter how you pretty it up, this is a problem that isn't going to go away. When you look back, the L-1011 had similar issues with wing spar cracking. Granted, the L-1011 issue didn't appear until the aircraft were many years into service, but it was an issue that ultimately resulted in many aircraft being removed from service. I imagine that this issue will likely impact any potential freighter sales. If the passenger versions are experiencing this issue, I imagine that it will only be exacerbated in the Freighter.

Of course this is just my opinion and nothing more....but one can't help but wonder what other structural issues may exist in the A380 and simply haven't reared themselves yet.
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kanban
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 5:13 am

Quoting art (Reply 13):
Kind of raises the question, though, why did it happen on the A380 if it didn't happen before on other Airbus aircraft? They all have wings with ribs, don't they?

I believe the earlier models had the feet machined in the rib.. however the other possibility is/was the way they attached the wing skins.. I may be alone on this one however there was a video of the wing assembly process that showed a fairly flat skin being wrapped onto the curved ribs and held in place with a hydraulic jacking system.. depending on how the rivets were installed extra forces could have affected the first hundred attachments. a poor example would be the torquing sequence on a vehicle engine head...
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 5:15 am

Quoting art (Reply 13):
Kind of raises the question, though, why did it happen on the A380 if it didn't happen before on other Airbus aircraft?

That I cannot answer. I do not know if Airbus uses a new process to stretch the aluminum skin over the ribs or if it's just the sheer size of the A380's wings that introduced stresses that were not present with the smaller wings of the A330 and A340 families.
 
imiakhtar
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 20):
I know that there have been reams and reams written about this issue, but I have constantly felt that this issue might be a bellwether of further issues to come with the A380. Airbus and EADS have stated that this issue is not a structural or safety issue....but we aren't talking about cracks in the lavatory door....we're talking about cracks. in Wings.

No matter how you pretty it up, this is a problem that isn't going to go away. When you look back, the L-1011 had similar issues with wing spar cracking. Granted, the L-1011 issue didn't appear until the aircraft were many years into service, but it was an issue that ultimately resulted in many aircraft being removed from service. I imagine that this issue will likely impact any potential freighter sales. If the passenger versions are experiencing this issue, I imagine that it will only be exacerbated in the Freighter.

Of course this is just my opinion and nothing more....but one can't help but wonder what other structural issues may exist in the A380 and simply haven't reared themselves yet.

In which case you're better off never flying again.

Barring the 787, there is not a single commercial jet type that hasn't been subject to ADs pertaining to material fatigue and cracking.

This AD was issued just last month for the 777:

SUMMARY: We are adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for certain The Boeing Company
Model 777-200, -200LR, -300, -300ER, and 777F series airplanes. This AD was prompted by reports
of cracks found in the Web pockets of the wing center section (WCS) spanwise beams. This AD
requires repetitive detailed inspections and high frequency eddy current inspections for cracks of the
WCS spanwise beams, and repair if necessary. We are issuing this AD to detect and correct cracking
in the WCS spanwise beams, which could result in reduced structural integrity of the wings.


http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/US-2012-08-09

SUMMARY: We are adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for all Model 757 airplanes. This AD was prompted reports that several operators have found cracking in the front spar lower chord at the fastener locations common to the side link support fitting at wing station (WS) 292. This AD requires repetitive inspections for corrosion and cracking in this area, and corrective actions if necessary. We are issuing this AD to detect and correct such corrosion and cracking, which, if not corrected, could grow and result in structural failure of the spar.

http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/US-2012-02-17

And to balance the field somewhat:

Two cases of broken Centre Wing Box (CWB) struts have been reported on
A320 aeroplanes.
Investigations indicated that strut thickness in the crack initiation area was
lower than specified in the production drawings. Only a limited batch of
aeroplanes is affected by this manufacturing defect.
This condition, if not corrected, could result in strut failure, reducing the
residual life of the remaining struts to below the initial Design Service Goal,
which would deteriorate the structural integrity of the aeroplane.
For the reasons described above, this AD requires repetitive Detailed Visual
Inspections (DVI) of the lower and upper ends of the CWB struts to detect
cracks and, depending on findings, accomplishment of associated corrective
actions.


http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/11-091
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col
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
That I cannot answer. I do not know if Airbus uses a new process to stretch the aluminum skin over the ribs or if it's just the sheer size of the A380's wings that introduced stresses that were not present with the smaller wings of the A330 and A340 families.

Could be a good point. It is a problem for the existing 380 operators as they wait the final fix, then we can put it all behind us. My big concern is if one of my flights gets changed from 380 to something else, as that something else just does not compare!!
 
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747classic
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 12:43 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
It's still pretty much peanuts.

If you read the linked article in the thread starter carefully :

The provisional bill , including all A388 aircraft that will be produced in 2012, is already euro 260 million. ( $ 330 million).

NOT included yet :

- Aircraft to be produced in 2013 (almost all receive first the temporally fix and thereafter the final fix).

- Airline Compensation fees for all aircraft, with a known technical issue, that still have to be produced.

- Lower production rates in 2012 and 2013, due wing change incorporation at the production line.

- Airlines deferring deliveries until the "final fixed" wing is available. Delayed payments.

- Cancellations: If the world economy fails to recover from the present downturn in 2013, airlines can be tempted to use this issue as an excuse to cancel certain aircraft delivery positions to avoid large (advance)payments.


IMO the total bill could easily rise to $500 million or more and that's in my world a lot of peanuts. ( or in the aviation world approx. 2-3 discounted EK A388 aircraft)
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darreno1
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 19):
Barring the 787, there is not a single commercial jet type that hasn't been subject to ADs pertaining to material fatigue and cracking.

Except the 777 has been in service for about 17 years, the 757, about 30 and the a320, 25. The a380 has only been flying for about 5. That's the difference, IMO.
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Stitch
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting darreno1 (Reply 22):
Except the 777 has been in service for about 17 years, the 757, about 30 and the a320, 25. The a380 has only been flying for about 5. That's the difference, IMO.

I would not be surprised if the 777, 757 and A320 all had ADs issued within their first five years of operation.
 
imiakhtar
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting darreno1 (Reply 22):
Except the 777 has been in service for about 17 years, the 757, about 30 and the a320, 25. The a380 has only been flying for about 5. That's the difference, IMO.

The length of service for the type is irrelevant.The 77W had been in service with AF just over two years before the first wing cracks were noticed following corrosion on the forward wing-to-body fairings, resulting in an AD around Summer 2006.

[Edited 2012-05-20 08:35:03]

I seemed to have missed this AD applicable to the 77W/77L only (EIS 2004/2006 respectively).

SUMMARY: We are adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for certain Model 777-200LR and -300ER series airplanes. This AD requires doing a high frequency eddy current inspection for cracking of the keyway of the fuel tank access door cutout on the left and right wings between wing rib numbers 8 (wing station 387) and 9 (wing station 414.5), and related investigative and corrective actions if necessary. This AD results from reports of cracks emanating from the keyway of the fuel tank access door cutout of the lower wing skin between wing rib numbers 8 and 9. We are issuing this AD to prevent loss of the lower wing skin load path, which could cause catastrophic structural failure of the wing.
DATES: This AD is effective July 28, 2010.
The Director of the Federal Register approved the incorporation by reference of a certain publication listed in the AD as of July 28, 2010.


Just over 5 years from EIS.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...5774b00501512/$FILE/2010-13-03.pdf


[Edited 2012-05-20 08:42:57]
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darreno1
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 24):
The length of service for the type is irrelevant.The 77W had been in service with AF just over two years before the first wing cracks were noticed following corrosion on the forward wing-to-body fairings, resulting in an AD around Summer 2006.

[Edited 2012-05-20 08:35:03]

I seemed to have missed this AD applicable to the 77W/77L only (EIS 2004/2006 respectively).

I'd love to see this AD and the cost associated with the above.


You make a good argument but we cannot neglect the seriousness of the cracks in question. Yes they are ALL serious to some degree but having looked at the cost associated with the AD associated with the 777 200 LR / ER series you linked I found this info:

"Costs of Compliance
We estimate that this AD affects 16 airplanes of U.S. registry. We also estimate that it takes 2
work-hours per product to comply with this AD. The average labor rate is $85 per work-hour. Based
on these figures, we estimate the cost of this AD to the U.S. operators to be $2,720, or $170 per
product."

AD.nsf/0/9880ad68e8dd83c18625774b00501512/$FILE/2010-13-03.pdf" target="_blank">http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...5774b00501512/$FILE/2010-13-03.pdf

2 hours to fix at $170 per plane? And it only affected 16 planes. The total cost is nothing literally. I think we're talking Apples and Oranges here when compared to the A380 issue. Thoughts? Or am I reading this wrong?

[Edited 2012-05-20 09:39:57]

[Edited 2012-05-20 09:41:15]
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imiakhtar
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting darreno1 (Reply 25):
2 hours to fix at $170 per plane? And it only affected 16 planes. The total cost is nothing literally. I think we're talking Apples and Oranges here when compared to the A380 issue. Thoughts? Or am I reading this wrong?

My initial point seems to have been lost, ie ALL planes crack, regardless of whether they're manufactured by Boeing or Airbus.

Undoubtedly, due to the size of the wing and the necessary inspections, it's going to take a lot of man hours for the A380 inspections. The inspections, coupled with the costs of the parts, aircraft down-time and hanger/ramp fees make complying with this AD a whole lot more expensive than it would for say an A330 or 777.

Sorry for any confusion.
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 26):
My initial point seems to have been lost, ie ALL planes crack, regardless of whether they're manufactured by Boeing or Airbus.

Correct, it just matters where the cracks are
 
darreno1
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 26):
My initial point seems to have been lost, ie ALL planes crack, regardless of whether they're manufactured by Boeing or Airbus.

Undoubtedly, due to the size of the wing and the necessary inspections, it's going to take a lot of man hours for the A380 inspections. The inspections, coupled with the costs of the parts, aircraft down-time and hanger/ramp fees make complying with this AD a whole lot more expensive than it would for say an A330 or 777.

Sorry for any confusion.

No need to apologize and yes I agree, regardless of manufacture ALL planes will develop fatigue cracks at some point. No argument there. However one cannot simply lump the a380 issue in with those other ADs and call it a day. The a380 problem from what I'm reading will probably require several ADs (in which they are footing the bill), a redesign of the part involved, and it will be spread out over years. Not quite the same thing.
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astuteman
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RE: A380 Wing Cracks Repairs Become More Expensive

Sun May 20, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting art (Reply 6):
Suppose they are legally responsible. Am I right in thinking that the ribs were defective but were not produced by BAE? BAE may have a slight problem trying to get $100's millions compensation from their supplier

BAE haven't been involved in Airbus for about 6 years now.....
EADS bought them out in 2006.

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